3.4 Metal pieces in oil sump... FOTO.

Hello, I have a problem after purchasing the car I decided to check the oil sump if not have metal shavings because I read a lot about this engine and a lot of them have a problem with the intermediate shaft bearing problems resulting in serious engine failure ... But in my it is not that problem because I take the gearbox out and the inspect IMS bering and looks fine... Question what can be the reason for these pieces of metal? PS shavings are aluminum ... magnet does not attract them ...

Second foto.

The reasons for the non-ferrous metal on top of the oil sump cover? Terrible engine factory manufacturing/assembly hygiene would be my guess. The alum. pieces look very much like chips produced by machining alum. The med. caramel and dark caramel colored pieces look to be from the various cam chain tensioner/guide rail cover plates which are made of a tough composite plastic. These can shed a piece of two of plastic as the engine is first fired up. Heck the assembler can even knock some bits loose as he fits the things. All of what you found can also explain why once in a while some one who religiously inspects his oil filter housing oil and filter element can find a surprising amount of fine/small alum. or plastic bits. One of the pieces sloshing about on top of the oil sump cover breaks up and gets small enough to be pulled through the oil intake screen and gets pulverized by the oil pump gears. No scary bits in the oil filter housing oil, in the filter? No scary noises? No untoward engine behavior? No problem. Make sure you properly seal and install the sump cover. If it comes loose and leaks... problem. Sincerely, Macster.

Can't the crank mill pieces of the bearings if it 'walks'?

These are left overs from manufacturing. We see them routinely. BUT you have timing chain rail wear going on too..

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Note like this, the pices are too big and too clean cut. I agree, these look like machining shavings.

I agree with the others opinions about leftovers from manufacturing. It takes a very sharp cutter to shave aluminum as smoothly as the shiny side of those shavings. I am surprised that porsche didn't do a better job of getting all of that out of the engine before assembly.

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The crank can abrade material but will not produce chips like those that are curled due to a clean cut by a sharp cuttter. Also there will be a lot of finer pieces finer material and the filter oil and filter element will be full of the stuff. Sincerely, Macster.

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Me too. I'm surprised but accidents happen. Or perhaps clean enough is the enemy of cleaner. The engines are a mass produced item. Real real clean costs time and time is money. If the factory can get a way this kind of uncleanliness it will. Also, there is the possibility someone tossed some of that in engine as it was being assembled. Either the tech or a co-worker with a grudge. Sincerely, Macster.

If it is the first time the pans was off I am not surprised to see these. The first time my pan was off I had the same sort of debris, this was at 50k miles.

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Thanks for your replay. Engine works fine only problem I have when is on idle and RPM are between 700-800 and engine is hot I'm geting sound like stuck lifter but not always, I noticed when I get tapping then oil pressure is on 1 bar.... No metal bits in oil filter and housing.

The low oil pressure and knocking sounds are something you need to really look into.

Are you saying that this is factory assembly debris? (This is not a remanufactured engine??)

Looks like your oil and pick up filter is doing the right thing..... mike

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Yes. That debris has been there for years. Even new engines have manufacturing debris from drilling the oil and coolant passages.

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It is possible a lifter is wearing out. Rare but they can. How the engine was serviced and used plays a role. There are some who think the zero lash lifters will wear enough get noisy anyway. As an aside when the issue of zero lash lifters came up in BMWs and some BMW fans were commenting on the fact of finally being free of cost/trouble of periodic valve adjustment service, some (I suspect old timer) BMW mechanics (and this could have been sour grapes too) countered that either the car owners could pay them to quiet the mechanical lifters when they needed periodic adjustment or the owners could pay them to replace the zero lash lifters when they ultimately got noisy. Another possibility -- just touching upon some worst cases -- is a cam lobe has gone flat or a lifter bucket has a depression worn in it. Or the noise could be a noisy fuel injector. Injector noise comes and goes. With no misfires it is unlikely (but not entirely out of the question) to be a plug or coil. It could be a small exhaust leak even. Or even a rattle in the transmission input shaft if you tell me the car has a manual transmission. My Turbo makes this noise when its drivetrain is fully up to temp. A quick "test" is when you hear the noise push the clutch pedal all the way down and then note if the noise is gone. If it is gone then almost certainly there's a bit of rattle in the input shaft or the clutch disc is jiggling about on the input shaft splines. One bar, or 14.5038 psi, is plenty of oil pressure at hot idle. First, I assume you're not running 5w-30 weight oil but something in the 0w-40, 5w-40, or 5w-50 range? And an approved oil? And the oil is reasonably fresh? And not too low? If you want check the oil pressure hot (90C) at 5K rpms. IIRC the oil pressure should be approx. 5.0 bar. If it is lower (but by how much lower could be a problem I can't say) then the noise could be an oil pressure problem. Before you get too worked up you need, or you need to have someone, to clearly identify where the noise is coming from and this someone should have enough experience that he can advise you as to the seriousness or lack thereof of this noise. One thing you have to be careful of is the ears and mind hearing a pattern of noise when there really isn't any pattern. I find myself doing this and then remember hey it is an internal combustion reciprocating engine located real close to the cabin and my left hear (and the good one too I might add) and it is going to make some noise. And sometimes, though not for as long as my imagination has it, the noise will continue. But then I think about something else and the next thing I know the engine is quiet again, sounding just like a healthy engine should and not like it is on death's door step. Sincerely, Macster.

Video of tapping noise on idle. http://youtu.be/WtycPne0eIc Second movie with changing revs and tapping stops for a while. http://youtu.be/M3KLnZ9llyU I put fresh oil yesterday Mobil 1 0W40 and is on MAX.

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That noise doesn't sound good. There is a distinct metallic characteristic to the noise, that, well, that just doesn't sound good, doesn't sound like (for instance) an intermittently noisy injector or the like. And I note in the 2nd video the oil pressure gage needle was at 2 bar and the noise was present. It may just be me but the engine didn't appear to react too well to a bit of throttle either, stumbling/blubbering a bit. I think the noise is loud enough and distinct enough you or someone with experience doing this can pinpoint the location of the noise. Just so the situation doesn't seem hopeless the absence of finer material in the oil filter housing oil and filter element is a good sign that the engine could very well be rescued without too much expense (relatively speaking). And in spite of the metallic aspect it could be from an exhaust leak or even a converter rattling around. But this should be clear to someone under the vehicle. And I'd avoid running the engine any more than you have to. The engine when run again and afterwards until fixed should only be run in the presence of a pro mechanic. And the engine I think needs the services of one to pinpoint as close as can be where exactly that noise is coming from. Where the noise is coming from will determine what ought to happen next. Sincerely, Macster.

I agree, that is not normal tapping. Sounds too distinct and severe of an impact, and the engine does not appear to rev properly. It needs a first hand look at by a real mechanic.

Update I found some time to get inside of engine. I make some photos of camshaft and lifters cradle. I found some damage on lifters cradle and some marks on camshaft wich looks strange (like lifters stuck and when is release is hitting camshaft and from that are this marks) or I'm wrong... https://picasaweb.google.com/1056768...eat=directlink That damages mean the lifters cradle must by replace? Maybe can by renovated? BTW Macster you have some video or audio of exhaust leak? This tapping in my opinion coming from exhaust manifold or is most audible from.

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Based on the pics, I'm not sure I agree with your opinion of cradle damage. Now the pics -- please I do not mean any offense -- do not provide the detail one needs to make this call. However, you are at the car, and have some skill/experience in this area so if you believe there's damage then there's damage. As an aside one test is to try each lifter in its respective bore. The lifter is cleaned of all its oil, dunking the lifter in a clean can of solvent and working it to flush out the oil and then after removing the lifter from the solvent any solvent. The liter then goes in its bore and you slide the lifter up as high as it is *supposed* to go and see if you can rock/wiggle it. As you move the lifter through its full travel range you continue this shaking/wiggling to determine if the lifter is loose in its bore anywhere in its full travel. You do this for all lifters, good and those suspected bad. You will develop a feel and if one or more lifters rocks/wiggles with too much freedom... well, you know. Important: Do not leave the lifter in this "oil free" condition for long. Once you are through with the wiggle testing dunk the lifter in a clean container of engine oil and work the lifter to recharge its interior cavities with engine oil. But assuming there is damage/wear or degradation, almost certainly this will have to be dealt with. There are at least two possible ways to deal with this. One is cradle replacement. Not sure however, the cost, or even if this is doable. That is I'm not sure the cradle is a serviceable item. It may be assembled to the head and machined in place and once done the cradle and head are as one. It may not be possible to just remove one and bolt in a new one. But a consult with your local Porsche parts department manager and a senior tech should have you up to date on this, whether the part is replaceable and what you need to do. I point out there are cast in oil passages and these need to be properly sealed to retain the very high oil pressure they are subjected to. Get this wrong and there will be an internal oil leak that can have you doing this repair over again. Get too much sealant and you could block off an oil feed hole or 3 with well, the chance to do this repair over again. Another way is to bore the lifter bores oversize, sleeve them with sleeves made of the proper metal, then bore/hone the sleeves to the final inside diameter. This requires an automotive machine shop that knows its stuff. One problem is thin wallled sleeves are tricky to secure so they not only stay in place they do not wiggle or in any way come loose even if they do not come out. I have no audio clips/video clips of anything. While I have a nice digital camcorder I seldom use it and in fact can't remember the last time I used it. An exhaust leak is rather easy to pinpoint but you have to have the car in the air and be able to determine where the noise is *not* coming from. So unless the second you hear the noise and can point -- do not touch the hot exhaust! -- to the leak you listen all around the engine and at various places of the exhaust system -- using a mechanic's stethoscope -- until you have narrowed down the likely location. Your nose, ears, and carefully feeling -- if you can safely get near it -- for puffs of exhaust gas from the leak will confirm you have found the leak. Obvious places are gaskets, flanges, where pipes join either from a weld or by being bolted together, where hanger brackets are attached (welded usually) to the exhaust hardware, fittings and pipe or converter seams. Oh, the cam lobes. Not sure what make of that. It looks to be some kind of surface corrosion though I note it is not present on all lobes. It might be due to heat if the lifters were dragging then the cam lobe/lifter face interface pressure may have lead to oil break down and some overheating or even wear on the lobes. The discoloration though is on the flank where the pressure is less. Generally degradation/wear from oil issues occurs where the pressure is the highest and that would be I believe at the tip of the lobe where the lobe is working against the valve spring and its considerable (170 pound?) pressure rating. Doesn't seem like much does it? But given the extremely small contact area -- the width of the cam lobe times the width of the contact patch which given the sharpness of the lobe's curve has to be small my estimate around 0.002" wide that 170 pounds works out to many times the spring's rated pressure. Might point out the cam lobes are lubed from oil splash from the oil from around the lifter bores. If oil flow to the lifter bores was compromised this could result in lobe degradation. What the heck: I'll point out this oil splash lube feature is why running the right oil is so important. (A day without an oil related comment is like a day without sunshine...) You'll have to make the call on the cams or have an expert give his opinion. Given the cost of their replacement or given the cost of having to do this repair twice if they need replacement but are not replaced, you need the best info you can get.

Mackster, you could have simply said, all looks normal or I don't know. To me all the pictured show normal condition. The camshaft pads are all bit worn, replace them.

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I see nothing but usual wear in your pics of lifter cradles, cams & chain wear pads. Replace wear pads & submerge lifters in new oil heated to 250 degrees, pump old oil out of the lifters until pumped full of new oil. Replace lifters that won't pump up or have signs of wear. In your video I think I hear some fluttering that sounds like a exhaust leak.

With that mileage, its rebuild time anyway. May as well do it right and replace everything.

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What mileage are you refering to? Just because the chain pads a bit worn, you don't rebuild the engine.

What he said^^ The OP never stated the mileage....what the heck are you talking about kk?

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Just tried to give the OP some thoughts on confirming the lifter bores were bad. I'm not at the engine and the pics are not sufficient detailed for me to say anything else. The camshaft pads are fine. They are no more worn than the ones in my Boxster with 240K miles at the time they were replaced due to a failed actuator. The tech didn't even think the condition of the pads warranted opening up the other side to even look at the pads let alone replace them.

looks normal to me

Macster thanks for tip how to test lifters, I will test them only to know wich one is not working correctly but I already bought full set of lifters to replace them. About that cradle in service manual they saying that any damage more that 1mm2 or any defects at the edges mean the cradle need to by replace... But if this really need to by replace I don't know that I'm asking if someone have the same defect on cradle and still using with no problems. Is sold separately but is expensive is like 600 euro wich I don't want to spend if is not necessarily. The camshaft pad only top one is damage and bottom one looks fine, I don't know if this is normal where only one is used some much.

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Sorry to OP. Hey Pete, I like your new avatar.

going to need a lot higher res version PETE!

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I can see that now look at the OP's post below yours. He is now confused with all the irrelevant info that you've overwhelmed him with. When people are asking for help keep it as simple and the point as possible. Don't go off on a tangent and start theorizing on other unlikely causes becaise it dilutes the relevant information. I've noticed this as one of your trends when replying. Long winded, replies that read like a novel and have too much irrelevant stuff. Again, keep things as short and simple as possible. If something is not clear, as for some clearification before start therorizing or guessing. Nothing good comes out of wild guesses. This is for the OP: tge cradle looks normal. Since you already have a new set of lifters, put them in and go for a drive.

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It is common for 1 to wear alot more than the other. The new replacement part is made from better material.

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......and if you are replacing one side, do the other too. The pads are packaged in pairs (2 per bag) and are only $20 per bag.

I bought set 24 lifters to replace all of them in one go. I ordered as well new pads and new camshaft chain. I noticed that hydraulic chain tensioner for 4-6 is was dry inside when I took him form the car and after fill up with oil is leaking when I'm pressing and cover a hole when oil is going in to. This is can make tapping noise?? I will not have any errors regarding camshaft timing?

Well, I don't get any indication the OP is confused. He's going to check to see if there is any sign of lifter bore/cradle wear using the wiggle test. As I said before, twice, I can't say for sure one way or the other. He's at the engine. Only he or someone who is at the engine can make that call. It does no good to replace just the lifters if there is any problem with the lifter bores/assembly. As for the camchain rail pads... they do not look bad to me at all based on what my Boxster's actuator pads looked like but if the OP wants to replace one or both that's ok by me. It is his car, his engine, his call.

Wow. Before you guys mouth off to me, you really need to pay more attention to the original poster. The mileage is over 114,495 KMs I think which is still over 71,000 miles. Rebuild time, not patch up time.

I was thinking thats engines should run up to 300K KM before rebuild of course depending of driving style and milage on oil....

Sorry dude, Its not a diesel. Why not fix everything while its apart. May as well get it over with and you get a fresh engine, less worry.

I was already thinking about rebuild this engine and maybe I will do it.

Now thats the proper can-do spirit. It will be fun and you will know its done right. Dont listen to the peeps trying to tell you it has to be a pro that repairs it. You obviously know your way around engines. Go for it, bruh!

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You've got to be crazy to say things like this. 115 000km is NOTHING for this or, any other, engine. Please stop suggesting rebuilds. I don't know how much you know about engines but it can't be much. My 996 has 325 000km and I just finished repairing/freshening up the heads. The valves and the valve guides are still original and the leakdown test was within normal spec. The car runs perfect even with this many kms on the engine. As for the lifter bores, you don't wiggle the lifter and go by feel but measure them. I'm repeating myself but, from the pictures, the lifter bores shoe no unusual wear patterns to suggest wear.

My point is while he has it apart, why not replace any worn parts while hes there? You dont even know his intended use. Would you trust your high mileage engine on a long trip or high performance use? Maybe he wants to make the engine more dependable? You know nothing of my mechanical aptitude. I assure you I have probably diagnosed, repaired, and blue printed more engines than you have changed the oil in. I would imagine our investment in tools is probably more than your house is worth. If your going to give be prepared to get it back. For what its worth, I have seen you criticize those who are trying to help the people posting more than you offer any useful comments.

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+1......

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I would absolutly trust my engine, otherwise I wouldn't have fixed it. You are suggesting a full rebuild for pulling the valve covers. How logical is that? It matters little how much your tools are worth when I read suggestions like these. You can attack me all you want, I've done my share of wrenching too but my tools are not worth more than my house. Want to see what can be done with nothing more than common hand tools, a regular garage and some knowhow? Go see my thread on the Canadian forum. You'll find it under "Dragged home one of these". The 928 forum has a few of mine too OR click on the grey in my signature.

Lunio, I listened you videos, and your engine sounds a lot like mine when the rod baring failed. Only diffrence is, that I had oilpan full of metal debries... I have read that these engine have failed becouse of loose rodbolt, so this might be the case? I would suggest that you do one simple test to roughly check the rodbearing clearance. Remove sparkplugs, use long rod that fit's thru the sparkplug hole. Put the rod against the piston top and rotate the engine until you feel the piston going down. Now push the rod, and if you feel the piston going down, you have find your fault. My engine had 97k km's when the bearing broke....

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I did that test before I took camshaft cover... But I not found any movement of piston...

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Ok, did you run the engine with out the aux.belt? Just to rule out that the noise might be coming out side of the engine. I think that there was a poster with similar noise, that turned out to be waterpump.

Yes I did that test as well and I still had tapping noise. I just thinking to replace this chain tensioner on that bank because is leaking and when oil viscosity dropping with temp can leak even more and not keep chain tight enough and this can cause timing change on that bank... What I will do is I will reassemble engine with new parts and I will see if this will help if not I will take engine from the car and completely take on a part and rebuild.

Could you please keep us posted with your progress as you have time? Maybe more photos?

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What photos you are interested?

If you take (or took) some more photos as you reassemble, then test the engine, or if you found anything else during inspection. It helps others (like me) learn by seeing the parts after X number of miles of use.

Ok I will.

Hi everyone, After I replaced all lifters still I had tapping noise.... I decided to open engine and check crankshaft bearings.. Hear you can see the photos.. https://picasaweb.google.com/1056768...eat=directlink I notice that engine wast open before and engine case was welded hear is a photo.. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink What make a crack in this case that they need to welded??

Have you taken any measurements? What are the main and rod bearing clearances? I also thought that your tapping noise sounded like a valvetrain noise and not a main or rod.

Hi Lunio, Your bearing's look's to be done for. Measure the crankshaft and bearingcarrier�s bearing line. By looking the wearpatterns on your mainbearings, it looks that your crank might be slightly bent, or the bearingline in the bearingcarries is not correct. Remember to change all the bolts when you put it back to gether. Head bolts with 10,9 stamped on them can be used again.

I don't think any of those bearings are worn enough to make the engine tap. That weld on the block probably came from and external damage. Broven over a large rock, bottommed out or romething similar.

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Welds are on the top side of the block, so this seem's un likely Oil fillertube is on that hole next to welds. For the bearing's, I would say that the rod bearings are worn enough to make tappinig noise. But of course, cant be 100% sure

Oh, and I have read that Porsche did repair some block's with casting problem's. Porsche sold 996's "too fast", so they needed to repair all the blocks that could be saved....

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Ahh ok. Thanks, I didn't realize that thatnwasnthe oil tube hole