Another 996 down

Well, it happened to me last night. Driving home from the gym, 35 mph and whammo, total loss of power. There was no eerie sounds or warnings. No CEL and no codes with my OBD reader (it was worth a shot). I coasted into a parking lot and sulked. I was hoping it was an electrical issue and went to bed with that dream. First thing in the morning, i had the car towed home. I tried turning the crank and it didnt budge one bit. Now I realize that I am in deep poop. I wisely called Jake Raby at Flat 6 Innovations. First off, Jake and Dean are true gentlemen and I want to thank them for taking the time to speak with me. Poor Jake's phone was ringing off the hook behind him. He walked me through the options and I am waiting go the wife to get home and discuss what to do. I have no clue what the damage is but at the minimum it sounds like a rebuild. My nearest Porsche Indy is 1.5 hours away so I just brought it home. Otherwise I would be paying a hefty tow bill and many hundreds of dollars for them to peer inside and confirm that I am screwed. Car is a 2000 C2 with 115,000 miles. She has performed flawlessly in the 1.5 I have owned it. All maintenance was up to date. So, I have to figure out whether to sell as a roller or go with Jakes engine. Right now I am still in a fog. This is like losing a child for me since I don't have kids. Thanks for letting me vent. He she was on Saturday morning headed to Daytona. And the second pic is Wednesday morning 😣

Ed, So sorry about your engine. Don't be too quick to sell it as a roller. Do the math first. Jake made you an excellent offer for the replacement. And if you sell it, what would your really want? I saw the look on your face when you were next to me on the way down to Daytona, and then the perma-smile in my mirror while we were lapping at the track. Take three real deep breaths. Then talk to your bride. She is a clear thinker.

Awe man sorry to hear about this. My motor died on me last year as well. Many options out there tho as im sure you know. Good luck getting her back on the road.

Sorry to hear about the engine and best of luck in getting it sorted out. What was the mode of failure? Also, if this happened after lapping Daytona, was oil starvation the problem? I ask because I too have considered doing Daytona with my 996 but decided against it due to the high banking and high G loads which could contribute to oil starvation on the M96. Not to mention the threat of blown rear tires, etc. due to the high banking.

DC, The laps we did Saturday at Daytona were touring laps , down on the apron only. No banking. Below 75 mph. Oil starvation was not the cause. In fact, Ed drove over 100 miles home on Saturday, and had been home several days since that event, and drove his car every day to work before the problem occurred. Not sure of the exact diagnosis, yet, but the crankshaft is truly frozen. However, you are absolutely correct regarding the issues to consider should you decide to do a DE or Club Race at Daytona. There was a ton of mechanical and physical carnage to the DE and Club Racer cars this past weekend there. No physical injuries to the drivers thankfully. LOTS of crumpled sheet metal, and broken engines and suspensions. Mostly folks whose ego's outpaced their skill (both on the track and in the garage). Neither Ed nor I were entered in the DE or Club Race. We were the lead and pack pace cars for 84 street stock Porsches that signed up for "baby laps" around the full road course circuit. They paid $10 for the 3 laps. 100% of the money was donated to The Wounded Warrior Project. EVERYBODY said it was great and want to do it again next year. Even had one gentleman who arrived too late to do the laps but still gave us $10 for Wounded Warrior Project.

Have Jake do a 3.6 build. You won't regret it. Plus, she's too pretty to give up on...

Ed, Sorry to hear this happened! I was there with you guys too and the laps were a blast. Nothing we did during those laps could have contributed in any way to the engine issues. I'd be interested to hear what direction you decide to go. Everything I've read seems to indicate Jake is the way to go. You're car looks just too pretty to part out as a roller.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. What a great-looking car! It sounds as though you have a tough decision ahead- best of luck with your choice.

Used motor with new IMSB would make sense financially

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From an unemotional point of view, this makes total sense. Also, a Porsche or Raby motor will cost you $20-30K,and you can get a low mileage 2000 all day for that money. So another option is just to sell it as a roller for $3k and buy another.

Sorry to hear about this. I think it would have been easier for me to make up a story about some illegitimate child that I had been hiding all of these years then tell my wife that the 996 need a new/rebuilt engine... In then end I consider myself lucky. I'd been driving pretty quickly though some twisties only 20 minutes prior. Had the engine cut out mid-turn I would have been without power steering, assisted brakes, etc... Who knows what could have happened. In the end at least you were at a safe point for the failure to occur. Take care, Chris

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$3K?!?!? and how exactly did you come up with this number?

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What, too high?

Thanks to everyone for the support. Chris, it was great talking with you today. I just had a meeting with my financial advisor/attorney (wife) and she agrees with my assessment that a motor from Jake is the best option. So, I am in contact with Flat 6 and getting the wheels in motion. Wife and I need to work out the financials (scary part) but hopefully my ole 996 will be on the road in a few months. Thanks again to my fellow Rennlisters. Unless you have been where I am, it is hard to describe how emotional a blown motor is. Yes, it's just a car but I think we Porsche owners look at it a bit differently.

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Troll Ban!

"35 mph and whammo, total loss of power. There was no eerie sounds or warnings. No CEL and no codes with my OBD reader" "I have no clue what the damage is but at the minimum it sounds like a rebuild." sorry for whats happened stupid question coming: how did you go from your first sentence to the second sentence? did you take it into a shop and have it diagnosed? just curious

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Fair question. I had emailed Jake with my symptoms, hoping it was a blown fuse. HA! Anyhow, he recommended that I try and turn the crank manually. I used a 24mm socket on the crank pulley and tried to turn it. A healthy engine should turn without much effort. Mine didn't budge, no matter how much force I put into it. So, if the crank is frozen, something catastrophic went on inside. At a minimum it would beca total tear down, inspection and god knows what else. I could do a rebuild with an Indy locally or just go with one already done by Jake, drop it in and be on the road in a few weeks with peace of mind.

With the spark plugs in, it takes effort to turn the engine by hand. Did just that last week. But if the engine is siezed up, try turning it over with the starter. If that doesn't do it, you have a locked up engine. As for being able to rebuild it, well thay all depends what kind of damage there is. Also, keep in mind that not evergthing can be rebuilt.

Gator996, I know that punch in the gut feeling too well. The feeling comes back strongly every time I read about someone else experiencing it with their car. Based on my personal rebuild experience, your decision to use Jake and his guy's expertise to get you back on the road is a very sound one. He did mine about a year ago and I am beyond satisfied. I didn't go to him initially and paid a heavy price for trying to save a few thousand dollars. I visited the F6I skunkworks after my unsuccessful first attempt to have it rebuilt. I had spoken to Jake few times prior to going down the wrong path but wanted to see the operation myself prior to plunking down the big bucks. I left there very impressed with the people and facilities but even more impressed with the scope of the F6I rebuild. The depth of that scope was not apparent to me from reading the website or speaking to him on the phone. I believe you will be very pleased once it is delivered to you with what will essentially be a new, and better constructed engine. Quick note on Daytona and my and a buddy's M96 motors. We were both there for a PBOC event in October or November the year before it was closed to DE events for re-paving. My 996 was totally stock at the time except for Pagid Orange pads and Sport Cups. By afternoon I was lightly feathering the throttle to keep it at 7k in 5th gear exiting NASCAR 2 and thru the tri-oval and on the back straight heading towards the Bus Stop. I wasn't confident enough at that speed to take one hand off the wheel to shift into 6th. It was quite a thrill and the car was quite stable except for the slightest sensation of front end lift. That was with the body totally stock as well. I signed up for two days but in the race that same afternoon, a Scuderia version Ferrari Challange race car hada rear tire let go at over 180 on the exit to NASCAR 2. His in car video is on you tube he spun 8 - 10 times down the front straight and fortunately didn't hit anything. That took the starch out of me and i drove home the next morning on my used PSC tires. The point of all of thus is my buddy and I suffered engine failures some months later. His 2002 Boxster S had what the mechanic said was an IMS bearing let go and cause the dreaded catastrophic motor failure while driving on the highway (please save all the how did the mechanic know it was the IMS - I'm not a mechanic). Mine spun a bearing causing the scavenger pump to give up and damage the valves serving cylinder 5. I was at HMS for my first DE after Daytona. I drove it the 70 miles to my home (really, freaking dumb, right?) before having it flatbedded to the wrong rebuild shop. The point of all this is, I relayed all to Jake and his opinion was it was the extended full throttle running you do on a roval like Daytona that puts the unusual stress on the engine which likely led to the failures. I'd talk to him about if you run Daytona regularly. Best of luck - you will soon be falling even deeper in love with your baby. And your wife too for offering such great advice!

If it happened to me I'd make the same decision you made - good call IMO!!

Please substitute NASCAR 4 for all NASCAR 2 references in my earlier reply to Gator996. The Editor

You are driving along normally and the engine cuts out and all of a sudden you need a new engine???????????????????... I think I need to stop this message right there before I really upset someone. oh is it a mazda you are driving.. sorry...

Gator, You need to understand what this engine is that I have offered you. It is not rebuilt and has not been reconstructed. This engine is something that we haven't had in over a year because we can't find acceptable donors to become our CPO engines. We have disassembled the engine completely and added the list of items to it that I emailed to you along with the IMSB, water pump, AOS, RMS and etc. lots of the posters here don't know that we offer anything other than our full blown reconstructions like fasteddie and 996c2 have purchased and that's not the case with your situation. BTW 996c2 is the guy that wrote the testimonial that I sent you the link to. Ask him how cost effective a cheap engine with a written warranty actually is. I am sure the pain is still quite fresh in his memory even after over a year has passed. It's seldom that we can offer any repair solution is only a month and for less than 18k, but honestly I am not positive that this engine is for you, because I believe you have an over expectation for it and because you expect a warranty which is something we only extend if an engine sees ALL of our reconstruction points and that's what starts at 18k today. I refuse to guarantee anything produced by any other.. That includes Porsche. Unless our hands and minds developed, applied and tested the entire arrangement we offer it with an up front understanding that the engine family has 23 modes of documented failure and we have only addressed 3 of them with our lower cost alternative in the CPO offering. Anything that we reconstruct sees 12 months unlimited mileage warranty with no fine print involved. These days the truth is hard to find and direct communication is harder to find. We offer both.

Gator, sorry for your car but maybe you could go into it yourself? Its not a Chevy SB V8 but its not a Space Shuttle either. Service manuals, proper tools, clean work area, and time, is all you need. Any machine work needed you can send out the parts. Maybe its a spun main bearing? Other option is the salvage auctions. Many wrecked 996's out there with used engines. Best of luck.

sorry for your loss but extremely jealous of your new engine!

Have it checked out locally before you throw in the towel.

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$18K and no warranty. A lot of work can be done for 18000. Since your mechanical knowldge is very limited. Spend a couple hours of labour and get a proper diagnosis. Think of it as a PPI for a repair. Engines can be repaired and not always just rebuilt. My latest project is a '99 996 that had bent valves. I'm in the home stretch of finishing fixing it and the total bill, not includimg my labour, is well under $2000.

You have misunderstood the cost of this CPO engine. It is not 18k, that's what my full reconstructions cost. The CPO engine is roughly 1/2 that cost if you consider that the installed cost including all fluids and lubricants for 12.5k. I spoke at length with him concerning repair but with over 100k miles and a questionable service life after the repair the economics support that option less. We repair engines with big problems all the time and take pride in saving engines but the return on investment has to be there before I offer that option. Considering the engine is locked up it probably needs a crank. Try to find a crank today, used ones are going for 2k if you can even find one. Unlike other engines no under or oversize bearings are available so restoration through regrinding is not an option. We have developed bearings and should have them available to the public in the next 18 months.

The CPO Jake has makes perfect sense. Firstly, I would not have a rebuild on my motor done by anyone else but Flat 6. But like Jake stated above, it doesn't make financial sense to spend that kind of money for a car of my mileage and year. With the CPO engine, I am still very close to market price for what I am into this car for. I will have full faith knowing that the IMS, RMS, etc has already been taken care of. Could I have mine rebuilt locally? Sure. Would I have full confidence in the build? Probably not. A 18+ grand rebuild for a car worth in the very low 20's just doesnt work for me. If I was really married to this car or it was something I just couldnt live without then maybe I would do it. But, it is a car that I enjoy and can now have some peace of mind and confidence in its engine. I know the CPO engine is not a rebuild but, even a rebuild can blow up in my face at some point. Mechanical things are mechanical things. So, I have full confidence in Flat 6 and there expertise and know that they would not steer me in the wrong direction just to make a buck. Hell, Jake is trying to talk me out of this thing now. Not gonna happen. I will be making the arrangements this morning with him and hopefully talking with a shipper in the near future.

Wondering, would the Guardian have detected the pre catastrophic event and then possibly saved the engine or at least minimize the damage ?

Sorry to hear your misfortune......please keep us posted on the replacement process and when you have your foot back into it....

The CPO is the cheapest route and you'll be back driving but there is no assurance that the engine won't have the same thing happen to it later on. There all just ticking time bombs, not even the M96's in the 997 are immune. My thinking is that for 6 k more you'll get a engine that will last much longer, has better cooling, has a triple row IMS and shaft retrofit and the displacement increase guarantees more hp. All that for only 5-6k more. Whats the difference on a 5-6k more loan at the end of the day, probably a coffee a day?

Gator, I am in the lab today profiling camshafts, so I'll call you on my way home this evening. I am not trying to talk you out of the engine; I am trying to ensure that you understand exactly what is being purchased and that your expectation level is realistic for it. I have learned that hasty decisions account for most disappointment and over-expectation in this world; so slow down and consider the choices wisely. We take pride in working with each broken car like it was our own and thats been key to the success of my entire engine program. We are very careful when selling any product and service that features a lower price than our standard cost of admission because thats a breeding ground for issues. Each engine that leaves these doors has the possibility of becoming a much greater liability than anything else. All it takes is one. That mindset is shared by many, many others that have engine failures that most of you here would believe. We are currently booked solid through June of next year for full reconstructions with cars here from 18 states currently and 4 more inbound. The CPO engine is something I've had for 2-3 months after taking the initiative to prepare it for someone like Gator who didn't wish to spend 18K, over a dozen people so far that could have afforded it chose not to purchase it and to wait their turn for a full reconstruction. Of all those cars that are seeing the fully reconstructed engines only two of them are actually worth more than the 18.5K engine cost. Those people love their cars, which is the requirement for spending more on the engine than the car is worth. Nothing new there, years ago we were creating 10,000.00 engines for 914s that weren't worth 4K bucks.

We are all good Jake. Lots of emotion the past two days. A good nights sleep and a clear head today only reaffirms what the best course of action is for my particular car. Give me a shout tonight and thanks for your patience!

As another wise poster on this forum said, "Hey, it's only money. You'll always make more." Sad to hear about your loss, but happy to hear that there's a path forward.

Hope it all works out financially, seems you will be getting a better motor in the end. I remember seeing a video - a Porsche 993 infomercial. They say they ran the 993's all day, at red-line, to test the motors. Wonder if they did that for our cars??

Im going to have to agree with jumper. Since the car needs a motor why not throw a bored out 3.6 or 3.8 in there with forged pistons, nikasil cylinders and a triple row bearing. This is the course I took and now my car is pushing 300 tq rear wheels. I have about 7000 street and track miles on my rebuild and car is running like a champ. No more pointbys for 996 GT3s

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And how much did that cost?

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The arm he used to use for point by's :-) m

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Doesn't matter what it cost. If you assume that the car is worth $20,000 in good running condition, and the completely rebuilt engine installed is $20,000 more, you are still in for $20-30,000 LESS than it would take to get into a 2009 Carrera 2 (997.2) or newer, in order to completely not have the problem, and get a remaining year of warranty. And not one in a thousand people knows the difference between any year 911. If it is shiny they think it is brand new. Period. If your gonna drive it a lot, keep what you have and deal with the issues as they arise. If you are going to try to make a "business case" for owning a 996 or any other Porsche, then you should have bought a Camry. And NEVER buy a boat! LOL!

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That's nice but I wasn't asking you.

My 18k engine takes a 3.4 to a 3.6 or a 3.6 to a 3.8 as standard practice. With LN Engineering we were the first in this country to offer a big bore engine and to date it's still the most developed product available. I just returned from a 6,788 mile trip testing our Generation 3 engine all te way to Canada and back equipped with the IMS Solution. The Gen3 technology allows a Nikisil bore and engine combination that suppers a 3.9 liter engine from the 3.4 base engine or 4.2 liters from the 3.6 and 3.8 liter foundations. This is our combo of internals from scratch. The biggest hurdle in this development hasn't been just making the engine big but more importantly maintaining a broad power band which has taken exceptional development in regard to cylinder head and intake modifications. Building an engine this big, keeping it street able enough to support daily driving but also rev 8k RPM is a huge undertaking. Gen3 engines are being released after the new year:-) Anyway, Gator went for the engine and I wouldn't allow him to make a hasty decision. We'll be posting the process on our Facebook page at www.facebook.com/fixabrokensix He wanted the engine a lot more than I wanted to sell it to him, which seems to blow people's minds on a routine basis :-) Hell, I got my best paycheck possible today when we saved an engine that was deemed a total loss by a Porsche dealership. In less than 4 hours we saved someone well over 14k bucks and had the car back on the road again. Nothing is better than that at my level. Nothing.

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Funny thing is that a nicely decked out Camry or Accord will cost more then an engine rebuild and at the end of the day your driving a POS.

4 months & 14K.

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Lol

I did decide to go with the CPO engine but the decision was strictly from a financial standpoint. I do plan to upgrade to a 997 in the near future. I bought this car way under market value when prices bottomed out. Now, I know I will take a loss on resale like most of us will. Hell, its a 12 year old car. But, with the $12.5K motor investment, I am now more in line of what the car should have sold for, or close, when I bought it, ie, mid 20's. So, investing 18k+ just did not make sound financial sense at this point if I am not going to keep it for another two or three years. I can stand to lose a few thousand or several thousand if sold as a roller. There is some emotional attachment to the car but not enough to go nuts with upgrades. This is my third Porsche (928,944,996) so it seems I am always moving to the next step every few years. There is the possibility that I may, at some point, gut it for a full time track car or purchase a prepared one. I would love nothing more than a full rebuild from Jake, believe me. The biggest consideration in my life is my wife. She has tons of input into my decisions since they affect her as well. Squeezing 12 plus thousand out of our asses was not a joy in this economy but had to be done. I will have a car I can enjoy for quite some time and have peace of mind that Jake inspected it (NOT REBUILT IT), the RMS and IMS is taken care of etc. Can this motor crap out on the way home? Sure. Can one of his rebuilds do the same? Sure. They are mechanical bits and things happen. But, I am not worried about it. All I want to do now is get the car up there, get it back and start enjoying my PCA outings again. Thanks to everyone who has offered advice, especially Jake Raby. He is a true gentleman and runs a first class operation. Like I said in some previous entries, unless you have been in my position, it is hard to fully grasp how stressful it really is. I will update the post as things move along.

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Uh, if jake's rebuild bit the dust on the way home (highly unlikely), he's going to make it right. Paying another $6k makes sense to me IMO. Good Luck.

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Believe me, I would like nothing more than to do that. If my wife wasn't gearing up for a political campaign next year I would. She is my priority as are our finances. I am completely comfortable with the CPO engine an plan on enjoying the **** out of my car as long as I can.

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I don't see at all how $18k motor in $20K car would make sense.

We do the right thing even when no one is looking.. As long as the purchaser remains tactful, respectful and understanding we will bend over backward to extend the same service to them that we'd expect if the roles were reversed. I can count how many "issues" we have had since 1992 on one hand, which is quite amazing. Of those engines two people turned into jackasses and neither of them received any help; the others walked away with fully repaired engines and no balance due at the end of the day. I have learned how to watch for red flags and certain terms and questions are a dead giveaway in regard to the caliber of person we are dealing with. Because of that more than 1/4 of the work that finds us is accepted into the program and thats about the only way we can maintain our reputation. Some people have unreasonable expectations of both man and machine. Its important that we ensure those people seek out the competition for their services, because that generally hurts the competition more than it helps them. One reason why we ship cars from all over North America to our facility and extend free removal and replacement of any reconstructed engine for free as an incentive for the cars to be shipped to us is so we can test them extensively on the road and on the chassis dyno. I typically drive any engine that we build 200 miles so we can carry out the first service, bore scope the cylinders, carry out lak down and compression tests and gather an oil sample. This way we treat the engine like it is guilty and it has to prove it's innocence before we ship the car home. This avoids occurrences of petty CEL illuminations, oil leaks, mechanical noises and other gripes that are always a reality after carrying out extensive repairs on any vehicle/ engine. In the time we have worked with the M96 engine we have had to "warranty" one engine, which I feel is too many. To restore the engine we had to ship the car from Pennsylvania to Ga, completely disassemble the engine, replace many components and then reinstall it back into the vehicle. I then drove the car 400 miles to ensure the issue was resolved and then we shipped it home to Pennsylvania. Shipping cost us 1100 bucks round trip, the engine work cost us 13,000.00 and the customer didn't pay a singe dime. He was respectful, understanding and gracious and never found an attitude, pissed, moaned or complained. Because of that we did the right thing with no hassles and we exceeded his expectations for the whole project and the repair. The reality is anything thats mechanical can fail at any point and for absolutely no reason, people who don't understand that haven't lived a life surrounded by machines. Here is the note that the owner of that car submitted to us after his vehicle was repaired. Ed seems to be a great guy with a real expectation of what this engine is. We took a few days to exchange information and now I feel that this engine will meet his expectations. It only makes sense if the vehicle owner wishes to keep it forever. You won't see cars for sale with our engines installed for very good reason. More people go the 18K route than anyone here would imagine, in fact we have 16 engines backlogged at the present. A 10K engine in a 4K 914 also doesn't make sense, but we were doing that in the mid 1990s.

Well said Jake. My decision to choose Flat 6 was not done in haste. My research had been underway for quite some time even before I had a motor issue. I cannot express to everyone here of how your professionalism and more importantly, your knowledge, has helped through my greiving process. You and Dean have been a breath of fresh air and I cant thank you enough. I am sure there are some great Porsche indy's near me but I know I made the right decision to call Flat 6 first and skip the runaround and unknowns. Dean just called a few minutes ago and a shipper will be here Monday to haul my 995.5 to you to once again make it a 996. We plan to drive up to Helen when its done and stretch her legs down I-75 for the ride home...smiling all the way. Thanks again Jake!!

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I think it moved, Jerry!

I am sorry to hear about this. Reminds me of the day my car died. Sucks!!!

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As a Seinfeld afficiando, thanks for that. I needed a good chuckle today! On another note of good news; Dean at Flat 6 arranged a shipper for me. We spec'd an open trailer since it really doesnt matter at this point if the car gets dirty. I was figuring it might take a week or two to get my car picked up. With all of the traffic of snowbirds heading south, a transport was available this Monday! The greater news is that they are getting me an enclosed transport for the open trailer price. 300 bucks to ship this thing. Steal!! Another plus of working with Jake Raby is that he is able to get the customer the broker price on transport. That is a win for the customer and a customer service feather in the hat for Flat 6. These guys rock!

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Will pricing and performance info be released prior to the actual engine release? Will FSI taking in customer's engine for the Gen3 update/upgrade or is it being offered as a turn-key arrangement?

We always build from the purchasers engine unless it is destroyed. That means we extract the engine and process it into a turnkey arrangement. This ensures that all responsibilities related to the engine and the application into the vehicle as well as testing is arrived out under our roof. I'll include pricing in our next newsletter, these engines start at 22k.

Sunday morning and the shipper just called. Car will be picked up Monday at 0900. Whoo hoo! It might be in your parking lot tomorrow Jake.

It sucks to HAVE to do it, but man why not mod up to 3.8 or drool 4.2L. If you have a hot rodder in you, spending $20k on a $20-35k car is normal, hell my 1990 mustang, worth maybe 5k with a stock motor i spent $20k on performance mods. People do it all the time, there are plenty of $80-100k mustangs out there. Here at least you are still driving a Porsche, and that means something. Heaven forbid if mine blows I would most certainly want a bigger, better motor not just a replacement otherwise it would feel like i spent all that cash just to have what i had before it blew.

Sorry to hear about the engine, but you made the right decision. You are going to be SOOOOO happy once you get it back, regardless of which displacement you pick.

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Gator, I hope it waits till Tuesday.. We need to get a few out of here, we are so slammed that even 30,000 sq ft isn't enough space to keep all the cars inside.. Hell the 40k sq ft warehouse on the other side of town where we keep cars off site is almost full too! If all goes well you shoul have it back at the end f the month.. I don't think I have ever been able to tell someone that before...

Interesting Jake, really 2 weeks? That's amazing. Found out a way to speed up plating?? or are you doing cores? From the sound of your earlier post you are not prepping cores?

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NO! The engine Gator has purchased Is a rarity, it's my CPO package and NOT a reconstruction that uses plated cylinders. If he chose the reconstructed, big bore engine he'd not be seeing his car till the week of July 4, 2013 and would spend 8-10k more $.

Oh ok, sorry I misread the thread... I was going to say that would be nothing short of a miracle.

I will tell the driver to take the long way. Hell, he could drop it in downtown Helen. It's not like somebody can steal it.

We can make room for a couple of days. Have one headed back to Canada early in the week and several others almost done too.

My car just arrived at Flat 6 about 20 minutes ago. The transporter had not even left yet when Jake got my car running!! He will be posting a video shortly. Stunned and thrilled to say the least. A lesser shop would have sold me a rebuild. I will give Jake the honor of telling the rest of the story.

Did you use Backwoods Trucking?

This should be interesting, hope it bodes well for you. Have been following your story and posts, GL.

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Thanks Steve. We are not out of the woods quite yet but things are definitely looking up.

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Nope.. We stopped using them just after they moved your car. The owner was unable to meet our expectations, so after more than 100 moves we said goodbye to them. Instead we became our own shipping brokers and just allow the owners of the cars and the shipping company to take advantage of the lower rates. This way we have more control of the whole process and its cheaper and better for all involved. I am editing a video that explains Ed'd issue well.. Will post it in a few minutes.

That wasn't the return pump we saw on your FB page was it Jake?

Gator, good luck! Only you know what the right solution for you is, regardless of the many pundits here. I lost my motor back in April and felt the same shock and dismay. I opted to sooth the pain w/ a new baby, but still miss the old girl.

Does anyone else find it interesting that Jake and Gator are communicating via this forum? I'm thinking I would be calling, texting, emailing....

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This is like a thriller novel......... can't wait for the video!

Jake and I are in contact several times a day via phone, email and text. We thought it might be good for other 'listers to walk along with a Porsche owner in distress and a guru mechanic. I know others have gone through a failure and surely others will in the future. Everyone will be as surprised as I was when Jake called this morning with the diagnosis.

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Ed originally contacted me on my forums. He, myself and Dean have had a lot of communication; he is the one that decided to post this thread here. (I knew that some vendor hater would arrive in the thread at some point- let me guess, you think Gator is a shill and not even a real person? The conspiracy theorist here amaze me.) Here is a quick video I made of the car and the situation that I posted on our facebook page at this link: https://www.facebook.com/fixabrokensix We have to do more invasive evaluation prior to giving Gator his options for how to proceed with proactive procedures. This includes the compression checks, leak down tests, bore scope cylinder inspections, oil sump inspection and a dyno run to see how it rates power wise with all the other 996s in its same mileage point that we have worked with. If the engine has other issues its not worth updating the IMS and other items as part of a deluxe preventive package. At the same time there is no use to just swap this engine out and spend Gator's money on something that he doesn't really need. Gator will have a lot of choices and options now; previously he only had one. Gator is a good guy with a super clean higher mileage car. Keep up with our progress on our facebook page; now that the vendor haters have arrived its time that I leave this thread.

Color me impressed!

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Not a vendor hater. Not a conspiracy theorist. Just thought it was interesting. Jake, from the support you receive here on RL, you clearly know what you are talking about when it comes to the failures on the 996 and the repair/replacements as needed. I also think you are excellent at marketing your company. Please take this as a compliment.

d a r n .....can't see....no facebook account

Wow! What a nice surprise. I hope all the other checks go well and Gator gets his ride back soon.

We don't market other than FB and the website.. No banner ads, no huge magazine ads, no sponsorships. Our works does all the marketing that we need to stay months backlogged year round. I used to like forum interchange, but not so much these days. People have changed.

Wow.. Its stuff like this were the internet does not come in handy for answers.. Fear mongers at work. Any other car has this issue, self destruction would never be the first thought before not even spending 5 min looking at the motor to see what indeed failed.

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I don't do FB & I was able to watch it.....

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Sorry Jake, I did not mean to offend. But just to see another side, in my simple observation, Gator's car siezed. He immediately thinks the engine is toast (because of all the IMS, etc threads on these sites). Immediately calls you. Ships the car. Finds out its just an ------- (don't want to spoil your video). All he had to do was take it to his shop. Maybe they would have found what you found. By marketing, I am actually talking about how you generally let little things slip in your posts, especially when talking about (and I am paraphrasing) how the non believers should see all the cars in your shop and then they would know how real these failures are....yet you have the time to surf RL like the rest of us. IMHO, I believe you are an excellent mechanic who knows how to promote his business. It certainly worked with Gator (who I am very happy for by the way). I am likely the same as everyone else here. We just hope we never need you.

I understand. As far as time to surf RL, I'll say this. My work doesn't occur during normal hours and I often will not be finished with my tasks until midnight, or I'll have my *** at the shop by 0500 other days (after an hour commute) to do what is required. There is no where within my facility that a computer isn't within 20' feet of where I'll be found at any time of the day. Doing what I do means that we have down time and I use that efficiently. Honestly today I should be down stairs tearing down a Cayenne R&D engine for our next stage of development; but I find myself assisting Dean with the management of cars at our facility from 18 states. Development work is my thing.

I certainly see your points Gonzo and can't disagree. Did I panic when I couldn't turn the crank? Hell yes. We have all read the horror stories of IMS failure or other issues with the M96. So, I had a few choices. Take it to an indie and hope it was a simple issue. Worst case, it was toast and I would ship it to Jake anyhow. Lots of time and money wasted on the indie. Nobody but Flat 6 will rebuild my motor. I lucked out this time and its in the ideal place for some needed repairs. I needed to have my RMS replaced anyhow and my local dealer had the ***** to quote me 7k for RMS and two cam cover seals. Thanks but, no. For $300 in transport costs I can have not only the needed repairs done at a very fair hourly rate but also a dyno, bore scope etc. I would have paid $200 to have it towed to an indie since I live in the middle of nowhere. All in all, I win and Jake wins by forming a new customer relationship.

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Is that $300.00 round trip or one way?

300.00 one way.. Thats a steal enclosed! We just shipped a 996 from Fresno Ca to our facility in Ga for 800.00 which is also a steal.. Both movers have 99% ratings on central dispatch. This situation with Gator is backward from what we normally experience. Typically the owner takes the car to an Indy shop that gets in way over their head after the car is taken apart..Then its shipped to us in a box and we have to deal with lost parts.

I don't do Facebook either and was able to see it as well. Jake; I assume you are selling/passing on this LN/F6 IMS techno all over NAmerica. Any shop you would recommend performing an IMS'ectomy in the Vancouver/Vanc. Island area of BC? Good on you folks for making Ed's day, but also for raising hope to the non-turbo 996 community at large. Salut! Martin

Pretty great result all around!!! Love good news threads - little too much gloom and doom in the 996 world!!

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We have two Canadian cars here now.. I stopped making recommendations long ago when a shop screwed up a procedure and someone held us partially responsible. Unless its done under this roof we don't know its done our way.

Glad it worked out I had my alternator freeze up on a couple cars that I have owned and the belt just burnt lol but they were not Porsches.

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Agreed!

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I hear you! Thanks for the quick reply! My 00 C2 was # ... 0220 off the prod. line in 99 (car bought by 1st owner in Nov 99) acc. to VIN. Do you think my IMS would be a double row bearing that early during production prior to Porsche shifting to single row bearing? Any way one can tell without dropping the tranny using VINs^ Bought the car 6 months ago. Now has 141k km (87.6k mi)! Merci encore! Martin

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^BINGO^ I'm very happy for the OP but this whole scenario is crazy and the irony here is stunning. The OP has bought into the hysteria and hype surounding these cars and what does he do when he has a minor issue with the car? He assumes the worst and immediately pays to ship the car off to the very same person who is perpetrating most of the fear mongering. But no worries, the masses continue to heap loads of praise on the fear monger and the OP says all of this is a blessing because now he can buy parts/services from the fear monger. You could not make his stuff up if you tried.

Obviously this thread spiraled into the ****ter pretty quick. Forgive me for wanting to spend my money the way I see fit. Good night to all and best of luck with your own cars. Mods, can you close this thread please?

I am done here.

When this engine gets torn down, any chance of getting a report back from Flat 6 on what happened to this engine? It would be nice to know what went wrong.

I didn't check out the video and the suspense is not killing me. I am however inclined to believe that the outcome for Gator is much better than any of us expected, and I think that is a great thing. No need for me to judge decisions or intentions - a good outcome is good enough for me. I will say however that Jake's ads in the Excellence Magazine are first class!

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Surely you are mistaking him for someone else...a few posts back Jake said he doesn't do ads.

I have my IMS solution if my IMS ever goes: A gallon of gas and a zippo

I've yet to view the YouTube clip or go FSI's FB page to learn the real cause of OP’s engine issue, but I’m happy to sense in today’s development that this is going to have a much better outcome than OP had initially feared. However I will say that I am glad someone like Jake and his staff are out there coming up with solution(s), and market them successfuly, it's a business for FSI that resulted from being passionate with what Jake and his staff seem to excel. It’s a free democratic country, if an owner of these cars doesn't think the IMSB will ever blow and won't bother changing it, then don’t, that's the owner’s prerogative and decision, it’s his/her car so no one here is stopping them. Remember SacTownGuy? He is at least one of those who did suffer (likely) the IMSB related failure recently, we won’t know for sure since Porsche again hush-hush’ed his repair through just like how Porsche dealt with other 996 and even 997 engine failures in the past, if these engine failures are not at least partially real, or completely un-related to IMSB, why hasn't Porsche provided the facts and stand up behind their design and product?! I suggest the conspiracy theory folks who believe IMSB issues are 100% figment of Jake’s imagination, should be aiming your anger and energy towards Porsche to get an official statement that Porsche’s IMSB is a perfectly good and bulletproof design, this will conclusively prove Jake to be wrong and Porsche to be right, rather than throwing innuendos toward someone who has genuinely spent the time, expense, and energy to develop products and services that can help minimize this potentially catastrophic issue. Hopefully the thread and posts will continue under positive lights, it has been an educational couple of days reading through the posts.

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LOL, just watched the video... happy ending... (and to answer my own question, I won't spoil it but that was not his return pump...)

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That's (allegedly) my plan exactly!

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Lets not miss the point here. The title of the thread was "Another 996 down". That speaks for itself. Turns out, it wasn't a catastrophic failure and nothing to do with the IMS. Billyboy...remember him? Not the IMS. SacTown, yes. One out of how many. No one can say. To call those of us that don't believe the IMS hype "conspiracy theorists", well, that's like saying I am crazy for not believing in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster (from MY perspective). To focus my "anger and energy towards Porsche" to get them to admit they don't have a problem--that I believe they don't have...convoluted logic at best. I totally agree with your statement that we are all free to believe what we want to believe. I believe that yes, these engines fail. Yes, sometimes it is an IMS issue. Sometimes it is a cracked head. Sometimes it is a chain tensioner. But the reality is that all cars fail 100% of the time. I just don't believe in putting a band aid on my finger just in case I get a cut. It certainly doesn't mean I don't think you should either. If it makes you sleep well at night, go for it. And like I said before, Jake's marketing is excellent.

What have I learned from this thread? The IMS in Gonzo911's and DreamCarrera's 996s will never, ever fail.

Not if you believe in Karma!

SacTown - lucked out - Porsche paid in full for his crate motor - yes he had to pay labor. Still don't know the details, but it was mentioned that the car had "major" engine work done shortly before he purchased it. I don't think his case is the norm yet Porsche provided a free engine on a used car well out of warranty. The servicing dealer, who I assume performed the "major" engine work, certainly had something to do with that. And, SacTown was well of aware of the "IMS Issue" yet posted more about his interest in mods and audio units - until the engine failed. I am not a disbeliever in engine failure, just as I am not a disbeliever that lightning strikes people and some of those people die. I still drive all of my cars, I still go outside in the rain. And I am somewhat taken aback by how quickly Jake resorts to feigning that he is offended and "out of here" when he is quite outspoken and his accusitive remarks of "vendor haters" and some other less than appreciative descriptions of the members of this community. He is out of here on one thread and appears immediately on another. If he is not marketing to some degree I wonder why he responded to a member who was asking for a cut away view of an AOS by saying "yes, there is one" - " it's in my new book, you'll need to wait until it comes out". Not trying to spin things up but let's call it as it is. Doesn't mean it's bad or that it's wrong, but it is what it is. Sometimes the "it's coming, something is coming, wait for it, it's coming and it's great, and I'm so busy you'll be lucky to be able to do business with me" reminds me of Apple's iPhone marketing. They are genius at creating artificial demand, selling before the product can be seen, selling more than they can fulfill, and having people feeling priveleged if they can actually purchase AND receive one. Their numbers prove that their "marketing" works. There is nothing wrong with marketing - but again - it would be nice to call it what it is rather than to deny it and act like the involvement is altruistic. In this case Jake could have divulged what he discovered about Gators engine, yet he directs us to his facebook. I personally have no interest in facebook so I guess I'll turn in and hope I awake for another day of enjoying my 60 mile round trip work commute in one of my 996's.

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Here's one... From: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...res-later.html <cough> another one from... https://rennlist.com/forums/boxster-...diaphragm.html Quite the thread we have here.

What kind of a car community is this when, those that know the most, flat 6 in this case, is only willing to release information, in a halfly answerd way, and is always based around money?

While majority of us own a Porsche as a hobby, it should be obvious FSI is a business, a business is in the business of making money, it's not even a non-profit organization. I might not like the price being asked, but i can't fault FSI for rightfully charging for intellectual knowledge the company invested its own time and expense to develope.

A very instructive tale. I remember wondering when this thread first started why the dearth of diagnostic investigation instead of the rush to conclude that the motor was toast? I just had to replace an a********r on one of my other vehicles too… I am glad for the OP that it turned out to be something completely different. In his case it apparently was not a whole lot more cost for him to have it transported to Flat-6 than to an alternative garage. However, for those of us further afield it still makes sense to have normal, basic, diagnosis done prior to rushing to a conclusion. Many of the more “diy” folk on here could/would have figured this one out on their own, or certainly any competent garage would have. The funniest part was that I had to go to Flat-6’s Facebook page to discover the big secret by watching a video. There is much truth to the sentiment that they are master marketers. I have come to the same conclusion myself. It does not negate the fact that they do great work, but, as another poster put it, “it is what it is”.

Glad it was a happy ending for OP. The Porsche belt tensioners must be REALLY effective.

I think this thread is priceless. Only the regular followers are gonna read through 9 pages of "he thinks, she thinks" so it's only relevant for those that have an opinion. It hasn't turned negative yet but there's still opportunity for Goodwin's Law to prevail! It was a good read, fun to follow, great outcome (because $300 shipping is a bargain, because that about cheapest I could get to ship anywhere, let alone the most knowledgeable on the continent).

One thing that is a fact is that Gator's avatar is hot.

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Logray, Thanks for the photos. I was the member looking for a cutaway photo. It should really help. I'm still trying to figure out where the coolant resides in the AOS. It appears that it is only on one side of the diaphragm. I can't really see how that helps the AOS function... If the rubber membrane fails, then there is the potential for an intermix issue. Best, TomF

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I recently had the LN IMS retrofit done on my 2000 C2. It had a dual row bearing made in Japan. Chances are good you have the same?

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I'm going to cut my old one apart and figure out how it all works but my guess right now, is that the coolant is only circulating in the diaphram housing to keep it from freezing up.

Yes AFAIK the coolant is to keep the AOS from freezing. There is not much chance for intermix from the AOS because it is vacuum/gravity operated and lack of pressure, unlike the oil cooler which is driven by the oil pump. With the AOS, you might get some residual/light intermix goop (around connectors from condensation or leaks), but likely not full blown intermix like you would see with cracked heads or oil coolers. The common symptom from AOS failure are tons of white smoke from the tailpipes and difficulty removing oil filler cap. A failed AOS and UOA could show coolant in oil, but not oil in the coolant due to pressure differential.

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So I am wondering if it is acceptable to bypass the cooling circuit on the aos if there is no chance of freezing. It would be useful to pressure-test the coolant circuit on the AOS. This seems that it would be simple- take the two hoses that go to the AOS, put a pressure gauge on one hose, cap the other and charge the circuit with air. The AOS has to be able to hold a considerable amount of pressure. A leak in the diaphragm would be easy to detect. What I am seeing in my coolant is more of a goop and not the milkshake that everyone speaks about. I am starting with the simplest items, AOS (which is new), then oil cooler and working my way to the dreaded cracked head... You may recall that I suddenly had intermix-like symptoms immediately after changing my AOS.

Yes there was a write up recently on RT where someone did what you describe regarding the pressure test. I would also retrace your AOS connections, it does have connections for both oil and coolant as you know and they must go in exactly the right places. Although it would difficult/hard to imagine "plugging in" an oil connector into the coolant hose and vice/versa. And as it is only a $100 item and not terribly difficult to replace (just a minor pain), perhaps get a warranty replacement and swap it out again, they can have cracks and could have just been bad from the get go. More common intermix culprits are oil cooler and cracked heads. FYI I dug up the post from a very knowledgeable person regarding the operation of AOS and intermix possibility (I won't reveal his exact occupation but I can say he has a close relationship with Porsche): http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...s/#entry210285 edit: I also edited my post that you quoted for accuracy, I'm not 100% on this but the intermix residue probably totally unlikely from AOS (read above post for explanation). i.e.: AOS failure, oil in coolant = nope / coolant in oil = possible.

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I agree wholeheartedly. However I also don't hear about engines from other automotive marques grenading in the frequency and the mileage of what has come up for discussion unless an engine had been very mistreated through neglect or intentional abuse, I can't remember the last time I heard about engine self-destructing with basic everyday cars from ANY marque with ANY recognizable pattern, let alone the failures with IMSB, cracked cylinder head, and chain tensioners which seemed to have shown to have a real potential of occurring with the 1999-2008 engines. As for the band-aid analogy, that is really not a fair comparison, I’d like to think it’s more akin to getting a better helmet when biking because the older, lesser quality helmet might crack and cause me injury if I wiped out one day, especially if some, however few, of these helmets have cracked under similar situations. And yes at that point I WILL sleep better at night. And in the helmet scenario, the particular helmet manufacturer would likely have been forced to recall the less quality helmets, but we won't go there! This I agree, however no amount of marketing/hype for the supply of goods or service will be worth anything if there is no demand. Agree too, which is why I still don't have an iPhone, or iPad, but do have an iPod Touch because it fits my needs. I also still haven't gone to get the IMSB changed yet after owning the car for a year now, not because I do or don't believe it is a problem, but rather it does not seem to be a problem which is wide-spread with high occurance rate to warrant my decision to replace it immediately, time will tell if I will "pay" for this decision. This I agree too!!

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On this point we are in total agreement! Your avatar has highlighted the most important points of this entire thread!

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Thanks very much for your input, DB's996! I never thought my question to Jake would get an answer, given how the thread took a tangent at the moment I posted, so your input is a bonus, indeed: Merci beaucoup! The likelihood of running a double row in my C2 makes me feel much more comfortable, but they can blow too as it happened to an acquaintance of mine on his way from Ontario to NY in a 99C4, which resulted in a very expensive tow, back to Canada, and a replacement engine, etc. If I may, did you ever have a chance to look at the old one? If so, did it need to be replaced, although I'm sure you are happy it is? Finally, what was your approx mileage, then? Cheers, Martin

My '99 had a dual row too, felt and looked good. Car has 320,000km.

My 01 also had a dual row which looked good but replaced with the L&N dual row. Feel like this is the best set up to have.

So far I have only heard of one instance of double row IMSB failure. Any one else?

I just lost a stock 996 motor last week and I know the pain ( in the pocket) it sucks, I finally got it looking amazing, full GT3 look with o.e. parts including Gt3 wheels to boot, not to mention a $10,000 paint job, roll bar, 5 point and a new Sparco race seat for those "used to be fun " track days. My quest is now, to find out about putting a GT3 motor in a "99 base modle with cable throttle??? Anyone with any ideas ???

I just went through a similar situation with my 2002 996. Engine ended up needing a complete re-build. I shopped around a LOT and also spoke to Jake at Flat 6. They wanted about $18K to do the rebuild. I have some good racer friends in Southern California who recommended Vision Motorsports in Laguna Hills. Dwain there did the rebuild, including a new RMS bearing and other "mods" for around $12K. Fantastic work, impeccable attention to detail and a really upstanding guy who took the time to talk me through all my angst. I highly recommend him, even though I live in GA ans had to ship the motor across the country. (By the way, Flat 6 said their next open date to start working on my motor was sometime in MARCH, 2013! I couldn't wait that long...

I also have a 2002 that suffered IMS failure a few months ago. I am still having a hard time coming to grips with the cost. Flat 6 was about 7-8 months out at the time. Ended up biting the bullet and going with a "new"(and ridiculously expensive) Porsche factory crate engine. Feels good to have a two year warranty but now I have the "upgraded" bearing that cannot be replaced without engine tear down, and the initial quotes I have received range from $9k-$15k. So did Porsche take a flawed design and compound the problem by now making the bearing inaccessible? I will not be around to find out. I just don't have it in me (or in my checking acct) to pony up ANOTHER five digit payment to keep a $25k car on the road. I guess it's time start shopping for my next 911...this time with a dry sump as well, so I can kill two 996 birds with one stone.

VERY interesting. Intricate failures on 996 cars....good to get such great repsonses. Way to go, all.

Update to my original thread start. This update has nothing to do with any IMSB issues as my car had none. After a few weeks, my 996 is home from Flat 6 Innovations and running beautifully. Jake Raby and his team performed some maintenance items that needed to be done to include: RMS, clutch, water pump, IMS retrofit with spin on filter and magnetic plug, AOS, etc. Prior to sending my car to Flat 6 I did my due diligence and researched them...as I would with any company that I plan on doing business with. I chose to send my car there based on my research and findings. I am glad I did. My experience with them was nothing short of uber professional. I want to thank Jake Raby, Dean and all of the Flat 6 team for their unbelievable honesty and integrity, not to mention their mechanical skills. I now have a car that I have full faith in and can enjoy for many years to come. I am sure that I will be accused by some of being a poster boy for Flat 6 Innovations and part of their wicked and evil marketing scheme. Not the case. When I am treated by a company with unparalled honesty, professionalism and communication, I will sing their praises. Contrary ,if I had been treated differently and shafted so to speak by Flat 6, I would post that as well. Our cars are expensive to maintain so it is paramount that you do your own research when you need repairs. Don't take my word for it. I am simply one extremely happy customer and would say so if I wasn't. Thanks again Jake and Flat 6! Happy motoring to all.

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Not by me. Jake's work is an important contribution to the community and the board, but his tone can get tiresome. People just have to remember two things: One, he is selling something, for a profit, and this is not a crime. And two, he spends every waking moment with broken Porsches and their angry owners. That's going to skew anyone's perspective. We just have to filter for that. An important reminder. The low cost of buying one makes people forget that these are still low volume, partially hand-assembled cars built by a struggling company. When a manufacturer doesn't do enough volume to fully develop a product before it goes on sale, the cost gets passed on to the owners. I think my car, which has been trouble free, currently costs me 15% of its value per year for routine maintenance and insurance. That's life with an aging European sports car.

Well said, Gator!

Glad to hear.

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+996 and Gator, I'm glad things worked out and knew off the bat that you would not be dissappointed.

+1 Love my F6 3.6 build (and the way Jake's team handled it)

Gator, Thanks for those kind words. We treat each Porsche enthusiast the same as we would expect to be treated if the roles were reversed. Thats easy, since we are all Porsche owners ourselves. I have a strong work ethic and a direct way of communicating, which often times in today's world isn't appreciated. Everyone is so accustomed to being "stroked" these days and told just what they want to hear that they find my ways too abrasive. I guess its all about those unicorns jumping over the rainbows today and when people experience something different than that, it appears to be foreign. Proud to be different and will never conform.

Good to hear you are back on the roads better than ever!