BAT Auction:996 with Flat 6 Innovations Stage II Track Performer Engine

Rennlisters, One of our purchasers from a couple of years ago passed away just a few months after receiving his car back from us. His family decided to sell the car, and it is currently listed on Bring a Trailer for auction through a dealer local to us. Its fitted with our 3.8 Stage II Track Performer engine, and has only seen a couple thousand miles, since completion. It should be interesting to see what this one goes for. Here's a link to the auction: ​​​​​​ https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...he-carrera-c4/

Thanks for the heads up!

Wow. This will actually give me something of an idea on my car now that it's had it's 3.8 transplant.... not that I'm getting rid of it.... EVER.

^^doesn't yours put down 50whp more than this one? not trying to start another dyno war thread...but iirc, your had a lot more power? Or am I think of something completely different?

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With the 15% rule (of HP loss through an AWD system) this makes this FSI 3.8 put out 326 at the crank...which is a little underwhelming for a $28K investment.

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This engine is still fitted with 100% stock exhaust, stock catalytic converters, and stock throttle body. It was not fully optimized at completion, as the owner planned to add the other items before he started tracking the car. That's because there's no 15% rule. This is a tiptronic, the rule is more around 24%. This is based from direct comparisons from our engine dyno, to install into the car, and then onto the chassis dyno. We have performed this comparison a few hundred times at this point, between manuals, and tiptronics, between our two engine dynos, and the chassis dyno. If this engine were fitted in a manual, it would net around 300 RWHP, even with the 100% stock ancillaries. No owner of a tiptronic vehicle is concerned with peak power. The engine combination that we use for a tiptronic application is completely different for the tiptronic application, as there are concerns that have to be addressed that a manual does not have. This owner didn't care about net power; he bought the engine so it would resist the failure that he had already experienced first hand. The added power was icing on the cake, and was a secondary reason for the purchase, not the primary. Fully optimized with our intake, exhaust, X- pipe, catalytic converters, coils, and etc this one would have made an additional 21-30HP, if it follows the traits of those that have come before it. @Bluechip: Actually, it won't at all. Your car isn't a tiptronic cabriolet, is it? The buyer for this car will be dramatically different than the purchaser of a manual, 6 speed coupe. It will be a complete apples to grapefruit comparison.

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This is the conversation i was hoping to avoid. I was thinking more like slakers old engine was a track performer III or something. I swear I read somewhere that car was putting down 350whp. Maybe I'm thinking of something else.

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Throw the displacement aside.. These two engines have a completely different internal combination, and thats directly attributed to the tiptronic transaxle optimization. Slakker also had a fully optimized intake, and exhaust system. The BAT car is 100% stock in those regards. To truly judge one of these engines one must average the HP and torque over a 5,000 RPM range. People that look directly at peak output are looking at a 250RPM snapshot of the engine's performance, and they are totally missing the most important portion of the engine's power band/ output. With a tiptronic we are ONLY concerned with torque.

For street use, just compare the area under the torque curves for the best comparison of the two engines. I always consider this as more relevant, regardless of the trans used.

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Thats true.. But only applicable if the engine combination wasn't also altered to optimize the operation, and gearing of the tiptronic. In this case, thats the case.

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Both valid points - thank you. And I have the same intake and exhaust that Slakker had - so that's something that I hadn't thought of either.

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That being said, what could a potential buyer expect if their only purpose in buying this car was to transplant the engine it into a 6 speed manual car? Would it be noticeably different from a similar engine built for a 6mt?

The problem here is that there is no "before" and "after", and I would be after a metric-crap-tonne of mid range torque. If FSI's number of 24% for the slushbox, then peak torque is ~330 at the crank...somewhere around 4500rpm (maybe? so hard to say with that chart), which is actually pretty good. Compare a 991 3.8 makes 325 at 5600 rpm.

excuse my ignorance. 991 is the porsche 911 model from 2011 to ??

I think the 997S was a 355ho motor. Not sure about the new 991 but I’d bet it’s more. The 991 base is 345hp and the S is 395. The .2 cars are 365 and 414 respectively.

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I believe 2018 is still 991 but its 991.2?

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Yes, this would not be advised. The application is completely different. Why would anyone do this, anyway? This car will sell for more money than one of our Stage II Track Performer engines. Just come get in line, take advantage of the proper engine being built exactly for your car, desires and application. These offerings evolved again in late 2017, details of those changes are coming when we finally update the Flat 6 site in a few months. Its taking us a while to get the site, and marketing up to speed, as Mr. Raby cared noting about that. To note, one reason the engine in this car cost more is due to the fact that it had experienced a failure, so the owner had to buy core components from our core bank. This is why you don�t wait till it breaks, to call us.

Since much of the car is still stock, how well will items such at the tip hold up with the much higher torque and hp? Are there driveline components that should be replaced with stronger components if the car is only going to be used on the street, but used aggressively? How close to the limits is this engine pushing the rest of the car?

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It was built for track use too, so I think all will be fine.

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The tip is the same used in the Turbo with 450 HP & 450 lb/ft. The guts of the tip are used in AMG cars with up to 800 lb/ft. It will be fine.

We�ve never seen a 996 tiptronic tranny fail.. They hardly even have faults. About the only thing they ever need is linkage cables replaced.

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from my understanding the 996.1 tip is made by ZF and the .2 cars by MB... is this correct? Are the .1 tips less reliable than the later tip tranny?

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All the tiptronic transaxles are robust.. No matter who made them.We don't see faults, or failures from either unit, even at exceptional high power output levels.

Thanks for the response. At least one solid component to be happy about despite all the �weak points�

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It's too bad you didn't get your hands on this car: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ersection.html https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ned-again.html Ended up being a very entertaining saga... for us. This former owner managed to go through two tips. Now, whether it was the transmission failing or the car failing the transmission we have never gotten to the bottom of as the car now has a new owner who is not on the site.

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I think time will tell that one was either a misdiagnosis, a wiring issue, or human error. It didn't have any mechanical symptoms. While anything can fail, and you will always fine 1 or 2 examples, the problems with the tips are few and far between.. Certainly much less known than the 2nd gear pop out issue with the manual gearboxes. We have 3-4 of these tiptronic transaxles that we can't even give away.. No one needs them, as they don't fail.

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I have seen quite a number of ZF 5hp19 transmissions used in 996 and 986 fail. Had one fail on my personal car about 50k miles ago. Most common failure is the front pump bushing galling/seizing to the T/C snout. Second most common failure is the lock-up clutch in the T/C. The ZF 5hp19 transmission internals are the same used in BMW, Audi, and VW in the late 90's to mid 2000's 5hp19 trans. It doesn't seem to be as big a failure rate as the 6M/T because only about 10% of Porsche were sold with Tiptronic.

Can you clarify which model years these were used in for us novices? The 5hp vs rhe 6M/T. thanks.

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The ZF 5hp19 is the Tiptronic automatic transmission used in 996 from 98-03 and in the 986S from 00-03, the 6M/T( also known as G96 and G86) is the six speed manual trans that was used in the 996 from 98-04 and in 986S from 2000-2004.

Thats what i thought the M/T meant so you were comparing a tip to a manual. So did i understand you that the tip has a lower failure rate percentage wise than the manual? Was the tip used in 2003 and later a better transmission than the ZF?

I'm looking forward to FSIs next 101 online class then taking the hands on towards the end of the year. I hope to see or experience on the higher rated engines in person and see the attention to detail. If any chassis deserves a great engine, it's the 996. I love driving ours. Should something horrid happen, I've already prepared my self mentally and my wife for that possibility. That said I'm still going to build a V8 Miata to abuse.

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The ZF 5hp19 Tip failure rate is about the same as the 6M/T ( G96) it was just sold in about the 10% of the Porsche cars. The Mercedes 5G-Tronic (also known as 722.6) first introduced in the 01 996 Turbo then later in the 996 Carrera has a much lower failure rate.

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Does anyone know what model year was the change made to use the MBZ 722.6? That would be useful info when searching for a nice 996.

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All mk2 (2002 and newer) 996.

Congratulations on winning the car, AZ968 nice car and set up.

Thanks! I'm still in shock! I think I got it for a decent price, and a great engine to boot!

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Hell yes. Hell yes! Have fun at the track, az.

Won't be a track car but I have plenty of great mountain roads up here to drive it on. Now I can keep up with the turbos and gt3s around here Maybe a quick drive up to Pahrump is in order!

Only 284HP? Isn't that what a stock 3.6 puts down???

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Let me know, I'll come meet you.

I am so jealous! Prescott is one of my favorite places for fast mountain road driving. I work for an OEM and we often drive from Wittmann to Prescott on test trips. Enjoy!

That's to the rear wheels, big difference.

Yeah, i suspect i know the route you take from Wittmann to Prescott! One of our favorite ways to spend a morning! Now I can do it in less time, let me know when you are coming through next time..

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A stock 3.6 manual transaxle 996 of this year will make 260-265 RWHP A stock tiptronic like the auction car will make around 244 RWHP almost religiously. We have a couple hundred dyno graphs from these that were gained while doing IMS Retrofit work to stock, non- modified engines. This 996 was 40-45HP stronger than stock, AND it used 100% stock exhaust, stock intake plenum, and throttle body, and still had the factory ECU tune. It was sad to see this one not bring more than it did, looks like its time to move on.

I was surprised it went where it did, I was expecting quite a bit higher. I guess it was my very lucky day. I'm thinking about flying out to pick it up and would love to stop by.

With an engine so new, that would be the worst thing that could be done.. Have that car shipped. The "experience" of doing this may be great for you, but its punishment for the engine.

Thank you, that good to know. I want to break it in properly I'll ship it. I'm so excited! Thanks.

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curious, why do you say that?

I'm curious too. Given changes in honing technology, rings break in quite quickly these days. Once an engine is up to temp, let er rip. I've never bought into the philosophy of babying an engine for a thousand miles or so. It's metal to metal contact or failing breaking parts that cause damage. How does a break in program of any sort prevent either? Only guys running old fashioned slider cams need to consider break in these days. Is the m96 OH slider cammed? No rollers?

Not sure why - but I tend to believe Flat6 about the break in. I repowered my offshore boat last year with 2 new Yamaha 4 strokes - they are pretty specific about the break in procedure and the amount of time at differing RPM requirements.

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That's normally how a camshaft break in procedure is written. After looking yesterday the M96 is a slider cam and it has some very interesting looking lash adjusters / lifters. They are definitely not hardened rollers as I was hoping to see, but there is some sort of harder semi moveable part in the center of the hydraulic lifter to contact the cam lobe. It will be interesting if some more information is provided.

I'm just going to do what the engine rebuilder tells me to do, I suspect he knows of what he speaks. He wrote the book on rebuilds and mods and it's his engine work. After I find out what the break-in process is I will post it along with any rationale he shares. I want this engine to last a looooong time :-)

Mt coupe would have commanded a higher price in my opinion. Also, convertibles sell for less during the winter months.

Az- it’s the right move for sure, but I have an enquiring mind, not questions the builder’s competence. May help others not fortunate enough to have an FSI engine..

It would not pertain to those other builds. Unless the same cylinder roughness average, piston rings, and clearances were used, anything that we'd state would be inaccurate. ONLY follow what YOUR specific builder has to say concerning the proper way to drive following engine rebuild. Nothing that anyone else says will matter, and could actually cause a problem that you'd otherwise not encounter. Due to the fact that someone could follow our directives for an engine that we did not build, and have an issue, we'll refrain from posting specifics that could damage someone's engine. Again, ONLY believe YOUR builder- he knows best. Our recommendations for break- in, and everything else comes from first hand experience, shipping these engines all over the planet, and receiving feedback, as well as data, and used oil analysis from them. Thats why the things we do, and say, only pertain to what we've built here. No, just because you have LN Engineering Nickies you won;t have, what we have. Our roughness averages, ring profiles, and pistons are not available any other way.

Understood. Can you at least tell me the recommended break up for the FSI stage ii track performer engine?

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The specific break- in instructions will be uploaded onto your owner's manual USB key of data, when you purchase the engine. The break- in will vary based on piston options, and the intended use of the engine, as well as the time of year the vehicle will be broken in. How soon you want to go to the track for the first time is also one of Mr. Raby's considerations when he creates this document. These break- in directives are created per engine order, and are not general, blanket statements. These also coincide with the engine oil that the vehicle is shipped home with, as this also varies per engine. Some owners purchase Mr. Raby's "Break- in Service" as an option, and those engines will have a completely different initial service period, as they are shipped home already at their "intermediate" level, having more drive cycles, and miles completed by Mr. Raby, before the vehicle ships.

Just thought I post an update on my car. It finally arrived here Sunday, I had it shipped in an enclosed trailer which took a while to arrange. It was stored next to a brand new GT3 so it was in good company during its travels. I couldn't convince the hauler that the GT3 was my car, not the '04. Gave it a quick exterior wash and started working on the interior detailing. It will need some TLC on the interior, a number of small mars that need touch-up. Exterior is very good, except front and rear bumper covers that need respray. The rear bumper cover was impacted and that damaged the paint and the bumper slightly. Front bumper has stone chips, etc. While the front bumper cover is off I'll install a Renntech "radiator grill" - couldn't believe all the crap that was accumulated around the radiators. That will all happen over the next couple of weeks. Did the top with RaggTop so it looks good. New wiper blades. Monday I drove it over to my local service shop. Drove it carefully since I wasn't sure of the condition of all the mechanicals, like brakes. But the engine sounded so sweet! The shop owner attended Mr. Raby's engine class a couple of years ago, so it will be in good hands here. Oil change, brake fluid change, new coolant tank and coolant. A/C service. New battery (the Porsche-branded battery was only 2 yrs old but failed testing - those batteries are crap.). Had to order one new tire that will go on Thursday, the others look like they have a couple of years left on them. Will need need rotors and pads sometime this year. An undercar inspection indicates that all is good, all the panels are in place and no signs of scraping. Rubber bits all look good, brake lines look good, etc. Thursday I can really start to enjoy it! Hopefully it won't snow the rest of the week so I can get a mountain run in! The car and I both need that! Couple of nice surprises that weren't part of the listing: the PO had installed an Evolution Motorsports Evoms V-Flow air intake system. He also had purchased, but not installed, a Porsche Euro Sport Suspension kit (ROW M030), that is being shipped to me now, new in the box! A case of Joe Gibbs oil is also coming. The original set of Carrera 18" wheels was also shipped in the car, one was bad, thus the after-market wheels. Don't know what I'll do with the three good ones, that decision can wait. Same with deciding whether to repair the original drivers seat. For now, the Recaro seat will do just fine! I'll be combing through the car over the next couple of weeks and I'm sure I'll have some questions to post. But, so far it's looking good!

Which wheels and which one is bad? I happen to have a spare rear MY02 in my attic. Congrats on getting the car. It sounds amazing!

Thanks, I can't wait to get it out in its natural habitat! Twisty mountain roads! The original wheels were the 18: Carrera 5-spoke wheels Option code 411. The bad wheel is a rear wheel, it was cracked, looks like hit something hard, maybe over a curb at speed.

Pm Sent.

Congrats @az968gpw ! Please post some pictures when you get a chance!

I will, hopefully the weather will cooperate this weekend, snow in the forecast so our maiden voyage may be delayed.

So an update on my car. Finished heavy detailing of the interior. The PO was a smoker so I hit the interior with some Vamoose to get rid of any smoke odors. Then fabric, carpet, leather and vinyl treatment. Looks nice and fresh inside. While going through the car identified some missing and broken bits, like some fasteners in the frunk, visor mirror covers, etc and got those ordered. New cabin filter coming as well. Ordered the "non-smoker" package pieces (fake cig lighter and cubby tray to replace the ash tray which had been used - I detest cigarette smoke.) FYI, the PO died of cancer. You smokers out there better quit while you can. The crappy "soft touch" paint on the console and a few other places have signs of wear so this summer I'll remove all of those pieces and paint them body color. That will spark up the interior. New rotors and pads will be needed this year so another summer project will be to replace those and throw on some SS brake lines. While it's up on jack stands I'll install the Euro Sports Suspension package that came with the car and have it aligned. It's in the body shop right now having the front and rear bumpers repaired and repainted. Rennline grill screens will be installed then. And later a clear bra to protect all of that new paint. The rest of the paint is in good shape, a little buffing and it's ready to go. Had the oil tested and the results came back perfect! There was some initial question if the PO had followed the proper break-in instructions for oil changes. I was able to track down the service shop he used and some oil change records and it looked like it was done properly. The oil test matched Joe Gibbs oil profile and the old oil had less than 5k miles and about one year on it. Hadn't been driven much since the PO passed away in Nov. I now have the Raby USB with all the records, instructions, photos, etc.so that's great to have. Amazing photos of the engine build! But, I have one problem that is causing me some concern. The engine is reporting a P0011 error, which is a camshaft issue. Been through a number of diagnostics with no specific cause identified. Found the left bank cam off approx 10 degrees from expected value in the retard direction, the right side is fine. Used Durametric and another scan tool that confirmed the results. Swapped cam position sensors, no change, problem stayed with the left bank. Then replaced left side cam tensioner adjustor solenoid with no change. Using a tool from F6I (for replacing IMSB) manually checked physical alignment of both cams and it looks like the left bank cam is off by about 10 degrees. and the cam couldn't be rotated by hand so it doesn't appear the chain stretched.The engine was rebuilt 16k miles ago and it had to be reassembled properly, no doubt about that. Mechanic's recommendation for the next step is to remove the cam cover for a visual inspection, which will entail dropping the engine. Haven't been able to drive the car much with the sorting out of these issues. I'm reluctant to drive it much until this P0011 code problem is sorted out. Don't like to drive with the CEL on, could mask another problem. .Did get in one nice drive. Looks like I may have difficulty getting the key back from my wife.

If you can collect a Durametric log file of the bank 1 and 2 Cam deviations, with RPM plotted from idle to 5,300 RPM I�ll get it to Mr, Raby for review. Do this before anyone pulls it apart, please. Ensure the engine is at 180+ degrees and has been at that temperature for at least 15 minutes prior to gathering the log. We are seeing a lot of Intake cam adjuster issues (vane cell adjuster) and at times the symptoms are the same as what you�ve seen. In these instances the CEL will often illuminate pretty much as soon as the car is started, or within a minute or so. The P011 code is common with this, and the symptom is a deviation from 8-14 degrees. The issues effect the �parking� of the adjuster when the engine is shut off, and this is notable on start up, as the cams advance for emissions purposes, and cold start operation/ fast idle. Going a year on the oil service can aggrevate this. The adjusters are hydraulic and can be finicky. Ensure the oil is changed every 6 months or 5k miles, whichever come first.

Well that is a bummer.

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Thanks much for the offer of help! I won't be able to do this until early April as I will be out of town for a couple of weeks. I forwarded your comments on the my service shop for his review and scheduling. But the symptoms you described is exactly what we're seeing! If this is the issue, do you see any reason I shouldn't drive it this week? We have a casual 100 mi round trip scheduled and was going to use my 968 for that. Would rather drive the 996. Yes, my plan is to change oil every 6 mos; have a case of JG and filter sitting in my garage for use 5 months from now. I'm pretty punctual about oil changes, cheapest engine insurance you can buy!

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Well, I hope to convince her that I need to drive it too.

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Judd, finally was able to collect the Durametric log file of the bank 1 and 2 Cam deviations, with RPM plotted from idle to 5,300 RPM per your advice. The file will be emailed to you from Deyoung Motors today or tomorrow. Was out of town for several weeks and not able to get the car to him before today. Thanks for your help!

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Soubds good, Mr. Raby should be in his office on Monday and will review them then.

So an update is in order on my car. Jake Raby was very helpful in diagnosing the cause of the engine code. It was the camshaft actuator for Bank 1 as Jake deduced. Even though I wasn't the person that paid him for the engine rebuild, he really went the distance for me! Was finally able to have it replaced last Friday and the Durametric readings all look normal, the cams track over the RPM range. No error codes, no CEL. This is a Porsche part that I have been told by several respected service shops occasionally fails. Maybe it was due to the infrequent oil changes earlier in its life, maybe it was just my bad luck, maybe the car gods didn't want me to get the car so cheaply and jacked up my total cost. Whatever the reason, certainly nothing to do with the rebuild. It fails internally so it can't be visually inspected without disassembly, which generally means replacement, doesn't appear to be something you put back together. Had a chance to finally exercise it appropriately this week. The engine is a beast! Everything I had hoped it would be! Really comes on very strong and pushes you back in the seat! And what a sound! A friend who had a 996 x50, and now drives a GT3, was very impressed. Much stronger than the x50 and it now sounds like a Porsche should. Put me in the "Jake Raby Rules" camp! I've fixed some of the cosmetic issues that annoyed me and have an ever dwindling list of things to fix up. Some, like repainting the "soft-look" paint on the console can wait. Next will be to replace the brake pads (another thread) and install the ROW M030 kit that came with the car.. But first, I need to hit our mountain roads again!

Glad to see that this was easily taken care of. We were happy to help you. Jud