Probably buying an '02 996... Not sure about IMS

Buying from a small private dealership that sells a variety of cars. Guy I've been dealing with says he's "pretty sure" the IMS was replaced when the transmission was replaced a few years back. Got my PPI back, inspector (who is very well regarded based on my research online, only deals with Porsches) said that checking to see if the IMS was replaced would've required a full day's work, but that I really shouldn't worry about it as long as the car is maintained properly, that he's seen hundreds of these and none of them has ever had an issue with an original IMS. Anybody have thoughts to share on this? I'm not seeing the car in person -- it's on the other side of the country, so I'm largely relying on this PPI. I've been waiting for this color combo and setup for a while, and don't want to pass this one up. Car has ~30k miles and I intend on maintaining it well. 1) When I get the car... should I check to see if the IMS was indeed replaced? (Is there an easier way to do that?); 2) Should I be concerned? Thanks!

With that low of miles, I’d consider replacing it.

Certainly have the oil analyzed and the filter cut open and inspected by a qualified shop. Low mileage cars if not properly maintained with frequent oil changes, are at higher risk of failure. If this is the car of your dreams and you will keep it for a long, have the IMS Solution installed and you'll never have to worry about it.

It depends on your risk tolerance and how long you're planning on owning the car. I personally would check to see if the ISM Solution has been installed - it is something that takes 5 minutes to verify. If not (and if your PPI didn't mention it, I'd assume not) I'd just go ahead and bite the bullet and have it installed. It will last the lifetime of the vehicle, you will be worry free (from an IMS standpoint) and it is a nice thing for resale. The current situation is that you may or may not have a replacement bearing - if you do, it still has a service interval - and if there isn't an LN Engineering sticker on the car then it may be of questionable quality - it is hasn't been replaced you're on a stock bearing in a very low mileage car, and that increases the risk of failure. If the dealer can't provide documentation of the IMS being replaced, you have to negotiate under the assumption that it hasn't.

I would not deal with anyone who says it takes a days work to check the IMS. Big red flag right there no matter what color combination. Unless it is a sky blue pink with yellow dots combination lol. Buying sight unseen with a exceptionally low mileage. BTW a replacement IMS does NOT guarantee it will last a life time of the vehicle. More like another 30000 from what I read. You are a very brave lad.

Hurdi, You need to drop the transmission and remove the clutch and flywheel to see the IMS flange. Then you need to reassemble it. That isn�t a quick job. If you�re in it that far, you might as well replace the bearing with whatever option you prefer, and do the RMS.

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Right. It's highly implausible that someone would replace the IMSB but make no record of this important work. A sensible owner would retain full documentation, including the old IMSB (to show a prospective buyer that it was not in the process of failing and contaminating the engine).

This all depends upon your risk tolerance. It's your decision. No one can "quickly check" whether or not the IMS bearing has been replaced. It is in fact "a full day's work." You have to separate the transmission from the freaking engine! If the "IMS Solution" was installed that would be obvious due to the modified oil feeder line, you can see it plain as day. Guy you're dealing with is "pretty sure IMS was replaced." Pretty sure? What a ridiculous statement. Either there is a receipt for the parts and or work performed or nothing was replaced, simple as that. Here's the bottom line....mentally and financially you must be in a position to drop another $5,000 in cash into this car immediately should you so choose. If that's not your situation I would not purchase any 996 on planet earth. Go ahead and replace the IMS bearing if you can't sleep at night. Be prepared to discover (as many many many owners have) that you paid to replace a perfectly good part that did not need replacement. Happens more often than the other way around. Enjoy the car and drive it often!!!

i wouldnt buy a 996 unless a) I have proof of the IMS replacement or b) i am going to do it right after i purchase it i found one with 27k on it and proof the IMS was done its the simpler of the 2 options

Looking forward to seeing this car, following your other thread. from what I've researched, your lower mileage certainly would have me taking directly to shop for ims. my recently purchased targa with 51k miles goes in Monday for inspection/ims upgrade. Depending on what else needs to be done, I'd really like to put in the solution. Mines an 03 with single row. hope all goes well!

Appreciate all the responses. I do really like this car despite the question marks, so I'm inclined to move forward despite this and some other minor issues. I just need to find a trustworthy, skilled Porsche mechanic. I don't expect to get to the level of knowledge where I'll really feel comfortable making these decisions on my own. I'm in South Florida, so if somebody has a recommendation please let me know.

Get the car and have the "Solution" installed right away...Enjoy it without ever loosing sleep again!

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Budget it in, use it as a negotiating position.

As mentioned, if there's no documentation, you negotiate under the assumption it hasn't been done. It's true that the fault rate is low in the grand scheme of things, but IMO it's still too high to roll the dice - particularly with the mark II. Seems to me that your PPI guy is a bit cavalier. He could have checked the oil and oil filter element inspected for metal debris - which would have gone a long way towards confirming the car is viable for IMS work. At 30K miles, I would like to see that the oil has been changed regularly regardless of miles. Has any other preventive work been done - AOS, water pump, coolant tank? At 30K miles and a dealership, I'm guessing the price is the on higher side. The preventative maintenance will push the overall cost pretty significantly. If you can't negotiate down for it, you might want recheck to really see you want a low mileage 996 vs something like a 997. Good luck.

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How long should it take to drop the transmission, and re-install it? Have you ever done this job? If I were doing a PPI, I would want to get paid for a full day to do this job - it's a lot of work, with a lot of potential for problems. It sounds to me like the guy knows exactly what he's talking about... Now to the real issue - If you really want the car and it runs well and has no metal in the oil etc. (all should be covered by PPI), you should have the IMSB done as soon as you buy it (budget for the cost/reduce purchase price). If the current owner/dealer can't show you documentation that the IMSB was replaced, you have to assume it's original (papers or it wasn't done). '02 all IMSB's were the small single row bearing which had the highest incidence of failure. 30k mi. on a '02 means an average of 2k mi/yr. This being said, there's a good chance that the oil wasn't changed for the first 5-8 years of the cars life (if there's no paperwork stating otherwise, assume this to be the case) as the recommendation from Porsche was as much as 15k mi. between oil changes... To me, this is the biggest red flag on this car. Hopefully my worst case scenarios are not the reality, but don't dismiss them out of hand - do your homework, and if the hype doesn't add up, walk away... Good Luck

IMS Solution DEFINITELY helps resale. I bought my 2002 996 within 24 hours of it being advertised locally on Facebook. Main reasons were(in order): IMS Solution, manual transmission, low asking price, 50K miles, Fabspeed exhaust, Clear bra.

Proof that the work was done does not mean it was done right. Been there done that. Budget to have the IMS done regardless of whether it was done or not. This will ensure it gets done and that it gets done correctly. Just my 2 cents.

Anecdotal tale: I just bought a well-loved 120k mi Targa in March. I hoarded up all the parts to button up all the deferred maintenance. I was planning on waiting until after I move in June to perform the work in my new garajmahal with a lift, instead of the 2-car garage in our short-term rental house. Began with light maintenance by refreshing the brakes, taking my time. After about a week on jack stands I fired the car up and it sounded like marbles in a tin can. I almost barfed. Luckily, the waterpump was the culprit and I already had a new one on hand. But this is a car that has been driven 20k miles in the last year and I drove 500 miles to get it. No indications of a failing WP, but seemingly overnight the WP bearing failed catastrophically. This scare convinced me to move ahead with IMS replacement. I spent about $5k on parts and tools alone to bring my car up to snuff within 2 months of purchasing it. I bought the car from an ad here and it was priced fairly and now the work is done. The original IMS was fine. The original RMS was dry. The original clutch measured out at about 2/3 of the friction material left. (Edit: I did replace all of this anyway.) In retrospect, I would suggest using your eyes and ears during oil changes and defer the IMS service a couple of months so that you can recoup some enjoyment from the initial purchase. Make sure you love the car and that there are no other major deficiencies before you invest further, but plan on addressing it.

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Don't believe there was any issue with the oil filter. See attached photo. Think I'm going to move forward, get a major service done once I get the car and get a second mechanic's opinion re: IMS etc. Spoke to the PPI mechanic again this morning, said that as long as you change the oil the earlier of 7,500 miles or yearly, there really shouldn't be any major problems.

You could really play it safe by having the car 'pre qualified' for a Retrofit or Solution a link to people who can perform that service http://theimssolution.com/certified-installers/ http://theimssolution.com/wp-content...-Checklist.pdf

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^^This is true, but it's 100% better than when the guy selling the car tells you "Uh, yhea I think it was done when the transmission was replaced"... How does it ensure that "it gets done correctly" (you just said "proof that the work was done, does not mean it was done correctly") ? Just wondering, as it seems contradictory to your first statement...

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Congrats! Now that you're a soon-to-be Porsche owner, time to ed'jucate yourself. Find a cozy chair and watch these videos: IMS & IMSB Explained: You Tube Extending the Life of your IMS: You Tube Understanding the modes of failure: You Tube The videos will help you make an educated decision on how to move forward with your mechanic. Mechanics are great but not infallible. We all have our own opinions on how to take care of our cars - time to empower yourself to help guide that process!

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Are those metal fragments or glare off the oil?

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Got it, I hadn't realized that he had opened up the filter. If you have receipts on the oil changes as specified, even better. Your call on the preventative maintenance, but I would at least get the water pump done if it's still on the original. Good luck!

Well, okay, how about this one folks ? I've just bought this '02/6-speed from the good folks at Victory Motors in Houston. The IMS was done on the car at 28,515 and the car presently has 49,900 miles on it. Right color, 6-speed, wonderful condition and the IMS done. Ironically, the car spent years in the Richmond area, and I'm 45 minutes away in Williamsburg. The CarFax noted that EuroClassics Porsche had serviced the car, so why not take it up to them for a complete check-over? Turns out in conversation with the service manager that the car had an engine failure and the dealer had rebuilt the engine....at 34,000 miles!! Wait a minute! Why would it have an IMS fueled failure if the IMS had been done 6,000 miles ago?? Heck, there's a receipt in the glovebox of the car attesting to the IMS install. The dealer was very aware of the car and there was no notations of the presence of an aftermarket IMS when they did the rebuild. And there is no sticker nor is this car registered with LN Engineering as having an IMS fitted. Uh-oh .... So, I googled Manheim Sports Cars on Lancaster Street in Manheim...and sure enough, there is none. But there is a Manheim Imports on Lancaster ROAD! So, I call them and ask if they ever did business as Manheim Sports Cars, or did he know of them? Nope. Always been Manheim Imports for years, and oh by the way, there is no Lancaster Street, though there is a Lancaster Road! The car did go through the Manheim auction around this time, and I'm suspecting that it is a bogus invoice used to assure a buyer that the IMS was done and netted a better price. Absolutely no fault of the selling dealer, as he had the invoice in the glovebox, and there was NO record of an engine rebuilt on the CarFax. I'm deliriously happy with the car and the fact that there is an engine rebuild with invoices at the dealership, which I intend to capture when I bring the car to EuroClassics. Moral of the story is that even though someone tells you that the IMS is done, and might even have a hand-written invoice, there is no assurance that it is done.

Just to play devil's advocate - I was a fairly early adopter of the LN dual row ceramic IMS bearing replacement. I brought my car to a very respected indy (and PCA member/instructor) for the the work. The owner of the shop consulted with Charles Navarro while at an event, as my car could have had either the single or dual row bearing. Charles told him he needed to order both types of bearings because there was no way to know which was used originally (MY2000). The work was done by a shop listed on the LN website. Other than my invoice, there is no sticker or other evidence to be found on the car. This is probably an exception, but it does happen, especially in the early days.

Did you consider that the invoice might just be a quote/estimate for work to be done, and it was never done? Could also just be a fake estimate or quote written by someone.

Clearly, another advantage of the IMS Solution is how easy it is to verify that it has been installed. I suppose its mere presence does not mean it was installed correctly. But if it has run for, say, a couple of months and 1000+ miles, it can probably be said to have proved itself.

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The stickers may have come later. I believe that LN is now maintaining a registry - if you have interest in getting on record. Of course, with a copy of your invoice that should put any doubts the rest. Just an FYI.

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Note on the invoice that it says 'replaced' IMS bearing. The point here for all of us is that you cannot do enough homework before buying a car. I have just returned from EuroClassics in Richmond (great dealership....), and my '02 received a total clean bill of health other than a crack in the oil fill tube...which seems to be a common issue with 996's. Victory Motors proclaimed the car to be a '10' and I completely agree. Along the lines of doing your homework....while searching for a car, I came across a 997 coupe from a indy dealer in New Jersey. 85,000 miles in Cobalt Blue done by one owner. It had rear end collision on the CarFax, but the dealer played it down as just a scrape. The photos (obviously from when they got the car...) were great and showed a very well kept 997. I gave him a deposit to hold the car while I pulled together logistics. My wife's intuition screamed out that she had a bad feeling about the car, so I decided to not sign a bill of sale and elected to drive up to the dealership. So, I went to Google maps to find it's location, and then I figured that I should do a street view as the dealer had indicated that they had done the IMS there at the shop by a Porsche-trained technician. When I went to street view, it was nothing more than a few office trailers with no real shop in sight, no less one that would do an IMS upgrade. And then I spotted the 997 in the street view photo!!!....With the sunroof open!!....parked amongst a bunch of cats and dogs used cars! But worse yet, there were leaves on the trees in the photo, meaning that it had been on the lot since last summer or early fall! They kindly returned my deposit (phew!) when I indicated that the dealer with the '02 996 that I really wanted had come back to me offering the car. You've got to do your homework!

My original IMS bearing will sit on my desk at work until I sell the car, then it will go with the car...along with a Google Photos album of the extraction and installation process. Better than an invoice.

In my experience at small dealerships, "pretty sure the whatever has been done..." means it hasn't

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Exactly. That way the new buyer gets to see the old bearing too. Of course, there is always the conspiracy guy who will think the old bearing is an artifact from somewhere else. Unless the buyer watches the replacement with their own eyes, one can never be certain. But - I'm doing what I can.

I just bought an 05 997. When I asked about the IMSB, he gave the receipt for the part from LN, the receipt from the Porsche dealer who installed it, and the old bearing itself. Belt and suspenders. :-)

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my local Porsche dealer, Porsche of Minneapolis, will not even do th LN retrofit or solution. They only will do Porsche factory replacement of IMS shaft. They only use Porsche parts.

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Vertex Auto.....

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The plus side with the IMS Solution is that it's pretty much indestructible. If it's running, it's fine. After 5+ years and thousands of installs, we've seen numerous catastrophic engine failures on cars with solutions and they have all survived and could be reused in the rebuild, just with a good cleaning. We emphasize that shops do proper pre-quals (that can take several hours) to check that engines are in good enough shape to be retrofitted. This includes checking for cylinder scoring. Unfortunately, we see more problems with cylinder scoring than with failed IMS bearings now, since IMS bearing replacement as regular maintenance has become commonplace.

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Serial number stickers did not come until 2010. There were several years and at least 2-3k retrofits and ims upgrades that did not get serial numbers. In fact, we were pinning IMS shafts and modifying them for additional bearings (used 3 single row bearings) before we were approached to develop and offer a product that could be done without engine disassembly. When a bearing is registered, we take pictures of the bearing and also scan in the work order and and supporting documentation. We don't share these publicly on the web, but we can upon request pull these documents from our database if the validity of an install needs to be checked.

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Here are several options for shops in FL with a very long history of performing IMS jobs. Sometimes it's worth going the extra mile. Till�s Import Car Clinic 1830 Boyscout Drive Fort Myers, FL 33907 Phone: [phone removed] Continental Imports 1219 S Main Street Gainesville, FL 32601 Phone: [phone removed] TanzTech Auto Repair LLC 6681 33rd St E #B1 Sarasota, FL 34243 Phone: [phone removed]