When all the glitters is not gold....

I never thought it would happen to me..... No, this is not letters to Penthouse, unfortunately. I've tucked my car away for it's long winter nap, with visions of lovely little TLC jobs to pass the winter away. One of the first steps is the draining of old oil and replacement with nice new juice for her winter nap. Removed drain plug and started draining oil....damn, nearly forgot to collect my sample for Blackstone analysis....ok, got a sample, alas at the end of the drain. Checked my magnetic drain plug and found a little grey paste. Nothing too dramatic but enough to just cover over the surface of the magnet. Next step was to cut open the Napa Gold spin on filter (installed the LN adaptor in the Spring). That's when the heart rate spiked. Glittery metallic particles in the filter creases!! Also glitter in the bottom of the filter canister. This is not the "paste" material like on drain plug, rather glittery "flake like" material. These appear to be ferrous as magnet picked them up easy. Ok, back into house for Bourbon, Scotch and beer (RIP Tom). Fast forward a couple of days for the hangover to die down. I pull the sump pan, expecting to see more glitter and maybe worse. Now comes the X Factor bit....sump was spotless. No glitter, no muck, no bits. I did find a tiny sliver of brown plastic (I'm guessing tensioner pad??) and a little blob of sealant in the pickup screen. Next I did the "finger test", checking the outlet side of the oil filter...clean again?? Testament to Jake's filter adaptor not allowing any bypass! So, where is the metal hiding? Ok, a little background. Car is 2003 996 C2, Cab, I have owned for 3 yrs now, with 105,000 kms (65K miles). Oil and filter changed religiously at 5000 kms (3100 miles) or less (this change was actually 4000kms) (2500 miles), with Castrol Syntec 0W40. New sump baffles installed last winter. Low temp Thermostat installed. LN ceramic retrofit IMS installed by previous owner approximately 35,000kms (22,000 miles)...receipt in hand. UOA done over the last 3 oil changes, with no unusual findings and no increasing trends. Latest sample had been sent off but don't have results yet. I pretty much daily drive car during summer months, shortest trip is rarely less than 20 mins. I've done three DE days (green group and slow) in 2016, missed out in 2017.Car NEVER uses any oil between changes. No rattles or smoking. Can't think of anything else. Initial plan is to drop transmission to check IMSB and RMS (I do have a very small amount of wet around bell housing). Still can't figure why there is no glitter in the pan. Is it "possible" the oil pump is the source? Pump picking up clean oil from sump, pushing it through filter and being "cleansed"??? Thanks to anyone with ideas. Joe

Here is the material discovered in the pickup screen.

Oh man, sorry to see that. Good news is whatever it is, most likely you caught it at an early stage. Do you have a Durametric? I'm thinking of checking your cam deviations and see whether they are solid regardless of revs. The flakes are probably too small and light to stay at the bottom of the pan.

I love these threads. They make me want to vomit.

BTW, do you know if the bearing is the single row pro, which contains two rows of bearings or it's the classic single row retrofit?

Quotes source post: 14766106

I do have a Durametric, however am reluctant to start the engine again. Strathconaman....I vomit a bit in my mouth every time I think about it.

Quotes source post: 14766114

Won't know for absolute sure till I get the transmission down, but based on it being a 3.6 and installed in 2015, I'm assuming classic single row.

I see. I agree you may need to inspect the bearing first because it's one of the things that you can inspect without tearing down the engine. You may want to cross check with Joel on this thread for more ideas https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...er-in-oil.html Edit: looks like you're already on that thread...

Yeah, been following. His is non-ferrous though, so seemingly different failure mode. Interestingly enough, my plan for first thing in spring was to check the cam variance as preventative maintenance. I also ordered new water pump, coil packs and was considering AOS....well, I guess that will be easier now.

I would wait until the oil sample comes back. Not sure what else you can do at this point?

Since the sump cover is off, maybe check the swirl pots for debris indicating debris in the head(s). Not a definitive indicator though.

Quotes source post: 14766114

He posted this in his first post - LN ceramic retrofit IMS installed by previous owner approximately 35,000kms (22,000 miles)...receipt in hand So the glitter has to come from somewhere else ?

I guess it doesn't matter much anyway as the whole engine needs to come apart to fix it properly, whether its the bearing or something else.

Oh man, sorry to hear this OP :-( Reminds me to check my filter too.

Why not pull the cover off the main oil pump and pop out the gears to have a look at them . It's very easy to get to, and just may be your source of metal, since there was none on the magnetic drain plug and none in the sump.

Quotes source post: 14766839

I was wondering about that. So the pump gears can come out without locking the cams, etc?

If the sump is spotless then it seems most likely this debris occurred between the pickup in the sump and the oil filter. My guess right now is that your engine shed a little ferrous piece of metal from somewhere, probably something normal perhaps, the chunk was small enough to pass through the coarse screen on the pickup (so it must have been mobile enough in the oil not to drop into the sump and stay there, suggests it happened when you were driving hard?) The particle then made it to the oil pump where it got squeezed between the oil pump impellers and created more little particles from the impellers, they made it to the filter and got trapped. If this is the case don't panic, examine the oil pump. I'm willing to bet you find damage on the impellers, see if you can replace them or maybe have them polished? I'd also replace the key drive in case it was over stressed when the crap went through. I wouldn't panic yet. You might be ok. This is why I have a bunch of special high strength magnets glued to my sump base and wrapped around my stock filter, anything ferrous will cling to them and not be sucked up.

Quotes source post: 14767673

I�m not sure about that. The sump can be spotless because the debris was suspended in the oil and then caught in the filter.

A few points: - the particles on the photos are only from 2,500 miles of driving. Whatever it is, it's shedding particles fast. - the UOA should indicate slightly higher than normal iron but it won't be able to detect particles of that size (unless you checked the particle count analysis). See the UOA on Cringely's failed engine post #156 here that had a lot more debris than yours https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post12370682 - the oil pump has two pinion like straight gears inside and it's unlikely the source of the debris. Even if you found the gears are nicked, those are likely secondary damage with larger particles got crushed by the gears. - you need to identify the source of the metal shedding part(s) to correct the problem in the long run

Quotes source post: 14767696

Then when he drained the oil it would have had a suspension of metal in it, also its likely some particles would have dropped out near the corners and area of low oil flow.

Quotes source posts: 14767701, 12370682

It may have been a relatively short term event, a chunk made debris and shed over 10 miles, then stopped? its not necessarily linear over the whole period of oil changes.

Quotes source post: 14767889

Highly unlikely because the chuck can't be ground into thousands of pieces like that in one go between the two oil pump gears. My take is something is actively shedding metal, likely at its early stage.

Quotes source post: 14766917

Yes, the oil pump gears can be removed without locking cams ect. Just remove the cats, then support the engine and remove motor mount nuts, and engine mounting plate and there it is. The four main sources of ferrous metal that size would be the main oil pump, the two scavenge pumps, and the IMS bearing. The three oil pumps can be removed without locking cams ect. The IMS ofcourse will need the cams locked at TDC ect. The IMS bearing even though the ***** are ceramic, the inner and outer races are steel and can shed ferrous debris that size. Other sources of ferrous metal usually much smaller and more like dust (some too small to see)can come from cams, lifters,crank, springs. Larger "chunks" of ferrous metal usually come from timing chain rollers, valve springs, lifter buckets.

Hoping for the best!

I got my UOA back yesterday. The increase is fuel % is explained as I had to move the car just prior to this oil change, so it only ran maybe 2-3 mins.

Thanks everyone! I think I will try to remove the oil pump and check that before transmission so the whole thing doesn't drop in my lap Can the scavenge pumps be removed with engine in car? Does anyone know the flow rate of the standard oil pump? I wonder how many times a particle could pass through the pump in say a 10 min period?

Quotes source post: 14769281

Yes the scavenge pumps can be removed with the engine in the car. Bank 2 is very easy, bank 1 is more difficult due to close clearance, but is doable. Without any hard data to back up my comments, I will say that the 996 GT3 oil pump can deliver 83 liters/min and uses the same factory oil filter as all other Porsches of the time (m96 and Cayenne V8). The Napa gold 1042 filter used in LN spin on is rated for 9-11 gal/min.

Ok, I pulled the oil pump and the right bank scavenge pump. No obvious damage to the oil pump, and no glitter in pump. A couple of very minor scratches on pump gears and some wear on shafts, but nothing to indicate this is the source of the material.

Yeah, these pumps are quite robust and are not known to fail or generate debris on their own. Jake even mentioned before the scavenge pump could ingest a timing chain piece without sustaining much damage. I found it difficult to believe these pump will shed metal based on their good and proven design. All of the damaged pump photos I saw were secondary damage - pump ingested metal debris.

Your oil pump looks good, no problem there. Disassemble the scavenge pump, (4 bolts) and pop out the rotor and inspect. After checking the scavenge pumps, if no problem found, may as well remove engine/trans block to check the IMS bearing and prepare for "deep" surgery.

Isn�t there a better way to figure out where the metal came from than randomly disassembling different parts of the engine? Isn�t there a list of metal types and where those metals are located?

Quotes source post: 14774932

I will open up the scavenge pump tomorrow. Damn, they are a tight fit. I put it back into place to protect the opening, between lining up drive slot and wiggling it back into recess. I"m highly reluctant to remove the left back one with the extremely limited working space. I'm confident I can get it out, just not sure I'll be able to get it back in!

Quotes source post: 14774728

Yeah, they seem pretty burley for sure. Still festinated that I can't find any of this metallic material anywhere else though. I figured I'd find at least some indication in some of these bits.

Quotes source post: 14775354

Well, I guess the fact that its ferrous at least narrows the hunt. I guess if you could get a metallurgical analysis of the debris, and all other components, you might be able to match something, but that's not likely practical unfortunately. I guess it's better than alloy, as there's much more of that inside there Hell, maybe it came from the filter from new.

Looks like rod bearing failure, lengthy repair if so.

Quotes source post: 14776580

Wouldn't a plain bearing failure leave non-ferrous bearing debris?

Ouch, I feel your pain. Good luck finding the source.

Had a little time this evening to work on car again. Pulled apart the scavenge pump and it was clean. A couple of tiny scratches, but not even enough to feel it with fingernail. Also pulled the swirl pots and both were clean as new, with no flakes or paste material. Next is transmission.

Part of the bearing shells is ferrous. Since you have the scavenger pumps off, you can check the sprockets.

Quotes source post: 14782981

Thanks Tomcat and everyone who has chipped in. The knowledge base is awesome and very much appreciated. I have only removed the right bank scavenge pump as the left bank is tighter to get at and figure I'll likely end up dropping the motor anyway eventually, so will hold off on that. Plus the swirl pots were both clean and I'd have expected debris there is scavenge pump was issue, wouldn't I? Regardless, I did take the opportunity to get in there with a flashlight and check sprockets, chain and what I could see of the tensioner pad. Again, all "look" perfect. The quest continues.

After a long delay, I finally dropped the transmission this morning. IMS bearing failing. At least I know have confirmation of the source of the metal. Bearing still whole, but with a lot of play and sounding rough. The good news is the RMS seems to be holding!

Best to change the RMS while your in there.

Quotes source post: 14810496

Glad you found the source !!! And looks like you found it real early. So If its the LN ceramic classic single row, then the ferrous is coming from the inner and outer races (which are steel) that failed at 22k. Good thing you had the non-bypass filtering system on it, probably no debris got to the crank/bearings.

Go buy a lottery ticket 'cause you've dodged a big bullet! Still need to rebuild but at least you can reuse most of the internal components.

Quotes source post: 14810645

More like the bullet dodged his heart, but he still has to have surgery!

Now the real question, why did the PO change the bearing and why is the new bearing failing at less than it's intended lifespan?

Quotes source post: 14810527

Yes, looking like that was a very good investment!! Clearly works based on all the checks around the engine showing no debris. Big thanks Jake and LN!! With the lack of debris anywhere I could find, how crazy would it be to replace the bearing and do a few flush oil changes and monitor for debris? Pushing luck?

Quotes source post: 14810656

I was told the prior owner changed the bearing as a preventative measure. I have no evidence that this is or isn't accurate, as he had the car a couple of years, but only put very low mileage on it. Bearing was changed prior to sale, along with clutch and a couple of other small items identified in another potential buyer's PPI. Could have been the installation process, prior debris, material failure/defect, the tech might have dropped it on floor while putting it in damaging it, or it could have been fairies for all I know. I don't believe in blaming anything or anyone without evidence to support it. No conspiracy theories please, and no product bashing. I will see if LN wants the bearing back for assessment, but I don't blame them.

Double post, sorry

I was thinking more in the lines of shaft and bore trueness from the factory. But all those other things you mention could play a part in it all I guess...

Quotes source post: 14810656

Well with this information we can assume a couple of different things. One is that the PO changed the IMSB AFTER finding debris in his motor. And we would have to conclude that the engine ran 22k without wearing any other parts (except the LN ceramic bearing) as oil analysis is still clean and engine shows no other symptoms, no debris in sump, oil pumps look good, only debris caught in filter from ANOTHER IMSB failure. Option 2 would be that the PO DID change the IMSB preventatively, and that the bearing just failed for whatever reason.

Quotes source post: 14810761

If he installed it badly and put some kind of shock or load on the inner shaft during installation this will cause impressions of the ***** in the races, setting them up to be doomed sooner rather than later.

What did you decide to do with this? put in a new bearing, do a few oil change flushes, and roll the dice? Or do a rebuild?

I am going to replace the bearing and flush a few times. As there is no evidence of debris anywhere I could find and I use the no bypass LN spin on filter adaptor, I’m going to hope that it indeed caught everything. Bearing did not catestrophically fail either, it was caught at a very early stage it seems.

Quotes source post: 14876601

I think that is a wise choice.I have the same scenario and have chosen the same remedy. I have 3 Porsche's , a 99 Coupe a 99 Cab and an 02 986 with a "S" engine. The 99 Cab I just discovered yesterday had a little ferrous metal in the filter. I DO have a non-bypass filter on it !! I have only had the 99 Cab for about a year and have done 4 oil changes on it before every track day. Last track day was in November and no debris in the oil filter. It has not even been driven since. I was getting it ready for another track day when I saw the debris, very light and ferrous. Removed the transmission and flywheel and IMS bearing and it still has the original Dual Row with the seal still in tact, but there is looseness and roughness on the OUTER ROW , the inner row still seems smooth. The engine only has 70k on it and has had a hard life, even before I got it and I haven't let up on it.but to those who think the dual rows don't fail, never let your guard down !! I caught this very early, just as you did, and have a non-bypass filter, so I'm pretty sure the engine will be fine. The clutch disc was worn down about to the wear limit and I already had a Kevlar clutch disc and pressure plate waiting to go in, (flywheel is in great shape) so this will all work out nicely. Plus my second gear was a little hard to engage when cold, and I already had a 2nd gear synco to install ( only minimal disassembly since 2nd is near the rear of the gearbox). So I'm killing quite a few birds with this stone.

Yeah, I’m hoping for the best. My clutch is in great shape, so no need to do anything there. Considered doing the AOS while tranny is dropped but it is working well at this point and Ive been hearing of new installs failing, so think I will stay with the known entity ans risk having tomdrop the transmission again if necessary. Really not a terrible job in the grand scheme of things.

It's been a while, so I thought I would update this thread. I changed the IMS bearing with a new IMS Pro. Replaced RMS as well. Bolted it all back. First oil change after 15 mins of run time on stands. Filter and oil clean. I've got about 350kms on the car now and have replaced and inspected filters three times now, all with clean results (well, two bits of sealant from sump plate). Looking good so far. In reflection, besides gratefulness for the LN zero bypass filter adaptor, I was wondering if maybe a failure of a ceramic bearing like mine, might give a bit more breathing room. With the ***** being so hard, the race clearly is what started to fail. I can't help but think, a steel ball bearing might have strewn more debris, as it would have been shedding not only from the race, but also the bearing? I wonder if if played a role in detecting failure before total devastation?

Quotes source post: 14965993

Its a fair point you make, on a regular bearing the two surfaces destroy each other, making it faster and more severe. With the ceramic ***** being so hard the race takes the beating but the ***** keep their shape much more than a steel ball would; hence the failure is slower and gives you more time. It probably saved your engine. Have you installed bearings before? installing them correctly is really very important.

^^ It's so important, I'd go so far to say that I suspect a lot of premature failures for aftermarket bearings are likely due to improper installation. Just my .02 from watching "technicians" work on bearings my past 25 years in the industry. I'm also not convinced in the slightest about the benefits of ceramic bearings for this application.

Yes, in fact I used the LN Faultless tool, which pretty much makes it foolproof. I left the mallet on the bench I do agree, that improper installation is a very likely issue in many failures, particularly with aftermarket installations not done at factory.

WOW, this is an incredible saga, with a Happy ending. With luck,I am picking up my very first ever Porsche, a 2002 996 4s, late next week, I have been doing a lot of Forum learning, it is very good to have solid evidence that a product is truly beneficial, kudos to the LN zero bypass adapter. I think this will be one of the first improvement I will do.