It may be time... sigh. A question on pricing a 99 996 Cab roller...

Hi All... been a while, and have a question I suppose could go anywhere, but since it involves my 996 figured I'd ask in this forum before posting in For Sale: any good resources/ideas for pricing a 99 996 roller? (God, it hurts calling it a roller.) Have had my Cab garaged for a year+, having had it torn partly apart to ID a CEL (again) and a rather excessive (1 qt./300 mi. or so) oil consumption issue, but to no avail... probably needs a full teardown but I'd pulled the plug halfway back then. Massive amount of work originally done on this thing including a rebuild to a 3.6l (Nikkies w/JE pistons) I'd posted about here back in 2012 (30k mi. on it) and quite a bit thereafter for waaaay more than it's worth (rationality was never a strong suit with this car). New clutch, top, wheels (tires a tad flatspotted) and a host of other crap. Frankly don't have the room for it any longer with a new driver in the house and I'll get shot if I toss another mid-four figures into it, though I'll swear till I die that this isn't a bad fix if not time-consuming. But damn this thing felt like a video game to drive daily. Have attached a pdf of some of the major work (yes, I know I could have almost bought two for the price of these repairs), but clueless as to a rough range to unload it at. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. (And happy to slot this post elsewhere if better placed in a different forum.) Thanks much, as always.

So what kind of shape is the body/interior in? Is it torn apart due to the oil consumption? How far apart? engine out in boxes?

Interior is in good shape, barring some wear on the drivers seat and a musty odor from sitting that I haven�t gotten around to cleaning yet. Body has been repaired twice, neither time on the cheap or with any frame impact. No dents. Few road nicks, just normal usage stuff (if not better than). Only one wheel with a 2� nick in it, easily repaired. (And the stock wheels here as well, with their fair share of typical NYC road rash.)

So TBH not at all that bad, and shows real well� part of the reason I hate to give this damn thing up.

Pictures would help... $4-6k on average Part out would net you more, but it's going to be time consuming.

So sorry to see you in this situation! Pictures would help... $4-6k on average maybe. Part out would net you more, but it's going to be time consuming.

What's wrong with it right now...what happened that it is now a roller....as far as the dollars you have in it....not sure it makes much difference....I have six figures in my car not sure I can get anything much above a typical price on my 996...which btw is why I would never sell it. :-) Really sorry about your car.

Thanks. Not an easy decision, that�s for sure. Suppose it depends on one�s definition of a roller... ain�t running, but the engine isn�t blown. Don�t know what the issue is, really... besides the heavy oil consumption (with little on the ground or blowing out) it simply cuts out. The diagnostics (various noted on the two 2016 repair invoices) didn�t reveal anything problematic, and the Nickies (at least in the 4/5/6 bank with the ever-fouled plug) were still perfect. The cyl 6 plug continued to become oil foiled after some initial work... something was letting oil up from bottom of the piston... their best guess was the oil control and/or secondary ring is damaged, and would have required a complete teardown (again) to source the problem. The shop who�s serviced it for years (well-respected in NNJ circles and with whom I�ve nothing but praise) were confounded. That�s when I gave up, figuring I would finally stop being ruled by emotion and tossing more money at it, and just stored it to sell, but could never bring myself to do it. Anyhoo, posted from work so will try and take and upload some pics when it�s light out.

Some pics...

It seems most rollers going in the $4-6k range. Looking at your car made me chuckle. I’m awaiting delivery of a ‘19 Cab S, same color scheme (though the yellow is now more lemon-yellowish) at a MSRP closing in on $140k. I could buy yours and get er done well below !! But I’m keeping my black ‘99 C2 coupe.......GLWS and sorry to read your story. Many here (including me) have been in similar situations at one time or another.

In my mind, a "roller" is a "roller" is a "roller"... There are just too many potential problems and catastrophic failure modes to roll the dice on while listening to the "story" of the car. It's unfortunate for you, but unless you're willing to go down the rabbit hole and fix the car before selling it, you have to eat the difference. $4-6k for an average roller, up to $8k for an exceptional condition highly optioned example (if you're lucky)... Good Luck

shame its not a coupe, I'd have taken it off your hands. Given the motor work and potential issues, I'd say you'd be looking at $7k or so

Sorry to read your story about your car. Looks like you tried very hard to be a good owner and the car just wouldn't cooperate. Sometimes it happens. GLWS..

You might want to consider selling in two pieces -Platform with transmission and engine .There is a lot of value in the engine to the right buyer -the machine work alone would be attractive to a racer .My guess Platform $5,000 and engine $3,000. If it were a coupe value as a package would be higher .

It sounds like a lot of good work has gone into it, but I doubt many buyers are going to roll the dice on a story and an engine with so many unknowns like that - unless it is priced as a roller. In that case, it could be worth the gamble for the buyer. Then again, you never know

Thanks all for the feedback and good wishes. Understood that it is a bit of a risk for someone out of the blue, records or not. My only hope on that front is that for a local-ish sale there would be some familiarity and weight given to the wrenches that have done the work on it these past several years, and their reputation in local PCA/track circles on these cars. But only a really faint hope, that, and still no guarantee of anything, I know.

I just don't see anyone taking a chance on anything more than your typical roller $$ Have you reached out to FSI?

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Contact Stonegate Auto Sales [email removed] Here at Flat 6 we just refer broken cars to them, we stay far, far away from dealing with used vehicle sales or purchasing. Based on what we've read here, I'd say an underlying issue with this one existed, and what has been experienced is collateral damage. Were the fuel injectors replaced when the engine was built? The mass air flow sensor code can make the engine run rich, and create these issues of oil consumption. Any engine that runs rich WILL consume oil, and it can be in heavy amounts. #6 can see an issue easier than the other cylinders due to the intake manifold characteristics, and the fact that this cylinder has a tendency to always run more fuel rich than the other cylinders. I read your PDF of the details that the shop did... Let me guess, the shop saw oil dripping from the exhaust bolts on the cylinder heads, removed the exhaust and then assumed that the cylinder heads had an issue with valve/ stem seals. Right? Then they pulled the head off, and didn't find anything wrong with it. If so, this screams inexperience with these specific engines loudly. The first thing we would have done would have been much different than this. I see this mistake all the time with stock M96 engines that are believed to have a mechanical issue creating oil consumption, and people always "fall for" seeing oil around the exhaust valve guides, believing that the valve guides, or stem seals are creating this issue. In 100% of the cases we have seen here, this has NEVER been the case. Jake has many documented cases of this, some with exceptional video that he has collected for his classes.

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My reference was for trouble shooting...

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Thanks... Unfortunately we can't offer any assistance more than the limited posts we can make here from time to time. Offering trouble shooting and diagnostics via phone, or email doesn't make our payroll each week. As authorities we are always contacted, but unless someone is willing to make the investment to ship us their Porsche, we have no way to benefit from offering assistance. Already today we've had 7 requests for "help", none of which have come from our paying customers. We are busier than ever, and often all 3 of our lines are lit up, with only one of those being from someone who wants more than info about a car they want to buy, or an issue that another shop cannot repair.

You guys are worth your weight in GOLD, I understand time is money and will gladly pay for your expertise! Jake has already offered so much to this community and others, how could one not want to give back to FSI for a change? This post is proof of that...Awesome!

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Thank you! We do have some people offer to pay us for technical assistance. The problem is that everyone here that can offer this needs to have their hands inside an engine at all times. For the amount of money that we can fairly charge for a phone consultation it�s taking away critical time from completion of our daily objectives. Jake used to offer technical consults until he got tired of people saying �that�s an outrageous price�. The final straw was when someone misconstrued what he was told during a chat, then had his local shop perform work incorrectly. He tried to blame Jake... Let�s just say that didn�t work out too well, and resulted in a policy here where we do not offer paid consultation any further.

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So after reading these posts I assume you are not going to reveal the secret fix for oil consumption/driping from the valve guides? The reason I'm asking is I have a good friend who rebuilt his own 3.4 using FSI/LN developed parts Ie 3.8 Nikies,Pistons, H-beam rods, bearings, IMS, bought all the upgraded parts available, heads rebuilt by the same head shop, ect. and has had oil consumption since day one (30K miles), and yes even oil driping from the valve guides. And now has a tick that sounds like a piston slap.. He had asked me about the oil consumption and I told him I thought the only way oil could be driping from the guides is that the seals were left off by someone reassembling the heads.With oil consumption being about 1qt/1000 miles and otherwise engine performing well he just drove it 30k miles...Having had a double lung transplant he is not phisically able to do another dissasemble/reassemble of the engine..and it's probably too late to correct this now, but it would be nice to know what was the cause of this for others on here and for future reference.. EDIT:: never mind..I read between the lines and can tell the root cause is "rich" running... My friend DID have a FVD tune done to his car, and some dyno tuning right after the build....guess they got the "TUNE" wrong even though no codes or running problems...It's a real shame cause he spared no expense in his build..

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Did this friend replace the fuel injectors when the engine was built? This issue is 100% created by an over- rich running condition, the fuel creates these problems. We see this misdiagnosed all the time, and it often will lead to mechanical compromise. The issue isn't valve guides, or seals- never has been. The oil is coming from the combustion chambers, and the engine starts to act like a 2 stroke. This is especially true with some engine oils, and driving styles. Modern fuels are killing these fuel injectors, and have been for years. The correlation between scored bores on OE engines is also heavily impacted by over- fueling, and injectors that bleed down, and / or have a poor spray pattern. Those in colder climates use a "winter blend fuel" that even makes the issue worse. It took years to connect these dots and figure this out for certain. Injector Cleaning does no good, they are not dirty- they are compromised internally. Our engines have received 100% new fuel injectors for years, so it took seeing these issues with stock & other people's engines to figure it out. Any "tune" can also make the engine run rich, so can some exhaust systems,and intake systems. YES, we have been able to catch engines with these issues early on, and swap the injectors, or solve the enrichment issue via MAF/ tune, etc and solve the consumption problems within 2K miles, or so.

Again, a wealth of knowledge in less then an hour...

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He did not replace the injectors, but did send them to have them flow checked for balance and spray pattern.. But the "TUNE' that he paid dearly for, may have caused the over-fueling condition on full throttle where the codes would not necessarily set. He did drive very aggressively, hitting above 165mph quite a few times...( on appropriate surface ofcourse). I did suggest installing a wideband 02 to monitor the A/F and to double check the "tune", but he was tapped out after the build, and clutch upgrade and suspension/tires ect....besides, having no software my self to change the tune, I would be of no help... He put his trust in the dyno operator who sent the dyno info/ A/F data info to FVD tuner to have them adjust the tune...and still was over-fueling I guess..

I'm a little confused here. Is the oil consumption a result of damaged cylinders from cylinder wash? Or, will it actually cause oil consumption from oil dilution due to overfueling? Or is this cause and result, with a small window to resolve the issue before the damage occurs?

I Can be from either, or many other underlying issues as well. Damaged cylinders/ pistons and etc are being created by fuel wash, which is the current topic of this thread. This can happen as well, but often we see low fuel intrusion in the oil with these issues than one would expect. Its easier for the fuel? oil to mix in the combustion chamber and burn, rather than make it past the rings. This is the two stroke syndrome that some oils can create. Most of the time these are oils that include ester in their composition. It is possible to have enough excess fuel in the oil to cut the oil viscosity, and that will show up in UOA as fuel intrusion, as well as reduced viscosity. Often these are not caught, because people start treating symptoms, and while trying to figure out the issue, the engine is damaged internally. One symptom of original engines having bore scoring has always been one tailpipe being more sooty than the other. Guess what, that soot isn't oil, it's fuel. If an engine can be caught when the sooty tailpipe or bumper is first noticed, the chances of being able to correct the over- fueling condition leading to consumption is greatest. We've only been able to save a few engines that had this issue. New engines going together with old injectors are the main issue, as they have near zero tolerance for over-enrichment. None of what is written here is conventional wisdom. You won't read this anywhere, and save your Google searches. __________________

This thread needs to be a sticky!

I had to read all of that twice. Thanks a ton for the insights. In thinking about it (and I�ll have to doublecheck later) I believe the injectors may have been cleaned and not replaced. That said, on what was a massive bill at the time, the difference between new injectors and cleaning the old couldn�t possibly have been more than a relative rounding difference ($100 or two, max?), so it doesn�t make a whole lot of sense not to have replaced them at the time. And I surely wasn�t asking about smaller costs as it went along. So very odd.

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This is the reason we recommend against having "tuners" change the programming - they know nothing about internal combustion engines. They turn monitors off (so no CEL comes on) and typically make things worse. Stock ECU tuning is best and adapts to changes in displacement, assuming all the sensors and injectors are good.

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In the instructions we provide with any set of Nickies, aircooled or watercooled, we clearly state to make sure the engine is not running over-rich. This can be caused by a multitude of problems, but fuel is not a lubricant and can wash the bores down, and the rings typically bear the brunt of the wear. Driven long enough like this, expect additional piston wear, and eventually, cylinder damage. If the bores are not properly cleaned or rings are damaged during installation (by not using a tapered sleeve ring compressor), either of these errors will result in the same symptoms which can lead to damage to the bores as well. We send over tons of technical information to try to limit mistakes and have added more info in the last year, but if engine building was easy, everyone would be doing it. The newest thing, other than injectors failing left and right, are that tons of intake and PCV components are plastic (aos vent tube and oil fill come to mind), any one of which can crack, causing a vacuum leak, which then leads the engine to running over-rich. Worse yet, it takes a really big leak to throw a CEL.

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You�d be surprised how many shops don�t even clean the injectors on a new engine. They feel that if it was running fine before, it�ll be fine again... But... Guess how many of those engines died from a failing cylinder, then the new engine has issues on the same exact cylinder later? You guessed it. We have put this puzzle together a lot, 12 times in 2016 alone. Your engine might be able to be saved... Its hard to say, but we�d like to try it.

Excellent. Thanks for the input Charles and FSI. BTW, my AOS tube was cracked from bank 2. No CEL, I only located it looking for the oil leak that it created. I couldn't find a single other post related to this corrugated tube cracking. Surely they're getting old enough to start failing. Mine was so brittle it cracked 20 times when I flexed it after removal. I think I'll smoke test my vac system soon for a piece of mind.

It's to the point I'm thinking of adding smoke testing when we do any pre-qual for an IMS job. We already bore scope to check for cylinder scoring and check fuel trims, but I'm pretty sure every car we have gotten in has had a cracked aos vent and oil fill tube. The next thing will be wiring issues. We're seeing 99 and earlier harnesses getting brittle and failing. Soy based wire sheathing is designed to decompose.

I keep saying this, all rubber and plastic parts in these cars need to be changed sooner rather then later!

Forums don�t hold all the secrets.. Just because a post can�t be found, doesn�t mean a problem doesn�t exist. We put together classes filled with content, and strive for this to all be original content �silver bullets�. We�ve been instructing in these classes to change these AOS vent conduits since then.. Today most every one of these has been compromised... As soon as it is touched by human hands to do some other work on the engine, it will fail, if it hadn�t already. When this tube leaks, the cracks can be small enough to leak air, but not oil.. The only way to diagnose this is with a manometer test, with simultaneous data collected from fuel trim values. A smoke test works in some cases, but oil located at a crack can seal that crack with the engine not running, and having no vacuum during the smoke test. Wereplace these conduits with all of our builds, and have for over a decade. Sometimes you buy more than an engine, if you buy it from the right place.

So much valuable info in this thread. Thanks to FSI and Charles for the insight. You may have saved an engine or two. From what I'm gathering, a manometer reading and fuel trims would tell the story if you knew what to look for. Or maybe treat your injectors like wear items? 10 year life?

I agree^^ Wear life is a great question!

While I was reading this thread and appreciate all the knowledge sharing. I checked pelican and Bosch injector is 40 bucks while Porsche brand is 300... are they same or different?

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That's a tough question. For years we thought it was sufficient to send the injectors out for testing and cleaning. After seeing injectors fail just into their service life after being tested, new injectors may be required, but they got pricey as of late too. Causes quite the dilemma when shops are rebuilding engines and they cut corners to meet the customers expectations for price for the job so as to not loose the job. There is a reason why Jake charges so much for his engines. Probably the best thing to do is use Top Tier fuels with regular servicing with a product like Driven Injector Defender which has additives to prevent corrosion from ethanol, to lessen the likelihood that an injector fails. I use it every other tank of fuel. Cheap insurance. Checking fuel trim values regularly as part of maintenance is probably not a bad idea to ensure the car isn't trying to enrich or lean out the mix, indicating there may be an issue somewhere that hasn't yet caused a CEL.

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As long as the aftermarket injector is a genuine Bosch purchased from a reputable vendor, I'm fine with aftermarket. Don't go with off brands. But sometimes, Genuine is all that is available. We just had to get a set at the whopping $1800 for one customer.

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Prices for injectors are all over the place..

In that case I might go ahead and pick up 6...

Make sure they are NEW, not rebuilt injectors!

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😱 that�d defeat the point! thanks for the heads up. Will ask before purchase!

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Thanks so much for the ongoing information here as well as for the offer above. Please check your Inbox in a bit for a PM.

Best of luck @ctrzaska ! Hope it works out for you! btw Pelican confirmed the Bosch injector is brand new!

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Just when you thought you were out. Good luck!