IMS Failure - Advice Needed - UPDATE 11Dec08

The service adviser at West Houston Porsche just informed me that the reason my '04 996 (40th Anniv, 3.6L with X51) was bleeding oil all over the hotel parking lot upon my return from a day of DE is that my intermediate shaft has failed (I asked:"What causes that?" Answer: silence). I heard a rattling noise just before pulling into the lot and discovered the leak shortly after parking. He will call me back after hearing from PCNA. The car just exited the regular warranty period in June, but there is a CPO warranty in place through 2010. I would appreciate your opinions on these questions: 1. From reading the copious postings on this subject, it seems that my IMS did not walk out of the block and "grenade" the engine, but rather probably just dropped the front bolt. Should I insist on a new engine or is just fixing the shaft itself sufficient? 2. From what I've read, it seems that I have a good argument in the event that PCNA claims that somehow tracking the car caused the failure. Agreed? 3. If they do replace the entire engine, how can I make sure that I get a 3.6L X51? 4. The car has about 30K on the odo. Is it a good idea to replace the clutch? About how much should that run? Anything else you can add would be appreciated. I'm not trying to shaft the dealer or PCNA on this nor do I have any reason to think that they're trying to shaft me. I'm just trying to insure that I feel comfortable about the outcome. Thanks in advance for your input.

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I believe Renntech has the X-51 serial numbers.

CPO will cover replacement of the engine with the same engine type if it's a full failure. Regarding the clutch have them look at it to determine wear, as well as the flywheel. If they seem like they may need replacement before your next scheduled oil leak, replace them.

Greg, Well, that is bad news and good news. The bad being the IMS failure, the good being that maybe it did not grenade the engine. 1. Don't assume that the engine is toast. Let the techs determine if the engine has been compromised. 2. Not sure, but you should be OK, especially if you have a good relationship with the dealer. 3. If the engine needs replacing, Porsche replaces "like for like" engines. There is an alpha character in the engine number that designates it as an X-51 engine. I don't recall (Grey Matter failing me) but I think the designation is "S" (edit based upon Pauls post) but I'll see if I can find that thread. 4. Ask the tech to measure the clutch. Someone recently (within the last two weeks) had RMS replaced under warranty and they charged him $785 for the new clutch, and no additional labor.

That last one was me. I was down to 3mm surface material, and minimum is 2mm. At least that's what they told me.

My engine was replaced 2 weeks out of factory warranty. No track, no issues, always dealer maintained. Damn thing just gave up the goose on the way to BRBS in Blowing Rock back in May. I believe the majority opinion was shaft, but who knows. They crate it up and ship it back. I got a new heart, courtesy of PCNA. My '04 had 16k miles on it and was always maintained by the book or annually at the selling dealer. That relationship surely made a difference.

You may find that the current policy of Porsche is to repair not replace engines with IMS failures if at possible.

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Eric, is the the first time you mentioned this on the 996 Forum? I don't recall reading about this before. It is a good thing the dealer gave you "slight extension" on your warranty, otherwise it would have come out of my "Will Money!"

Anoyher IMS failed story.... Why don't you talk to Jake Raby?

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Eric, do you think that it should make any difference in that this car has Bumper Plugs and a Door Plug?

Greg, Sorry to hear about your engine. I remember talking to you about our cars at TWS last June. My 40th Anniversary engine had IMS failure one year ago at 30,250 miles, in a parking lot. I had it towed to Roger Beasley Porsche in Austin, where I have all my service done (including my pre-DE tech inspections). I had purchased it as a CPO with the extended warranty, so no issues there at all. PCNA had Beasley Porsche tear the engine down to assess whether it could be rebuilt or would need replacement. The diagnosis was replacement. Beasley shipped the original engine back. IIRC, the replacement engine came with everything on it except the exhaust (alternator, AC compressor, etc.). The dealer serviced the clutch at n/c as part of the serivce. It took two weeks to get my car back, and the service manager apologized for the long time and described to me the entire process (how many days for teardown, shipment, installation, etc.). After getting the car back, the clutch felt fine, but I could hear a faint noise when I engaged and disengaged it, almost like a cable was rubbing somewhere. I took it back, the dealer adjusted it, and it's been perfect ever since (8k miles). It runs like a top and feels exactly like it did with the original engine. I agree with Eric, the dealer relationship makes a difference. I hope you have the same experience I did. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

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Your order will identify the engine and it's last Digit will be and S (for x51). eg M96.03S Also, no dealer is going to try to trick you and downgrade your engine. The x51 is readily identifiable from the outside. The entire intake distribution system on the x51 is a one piece cast alum unit vs the standard engines have an assortment of black plastic tubes.

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I was at the local dealer a couple of weeks ago. They had a 996 engine in pieces saying that their techs were now factory trained on rebuilds and all the parts were easily available. Thus, they expected to handle engine issues in house rather than get factory remans. Traditionally, it was thought that a factory reman was built to better tolerances & was expected to last longer than a field rebuild. Not sure if that is still so.

We were all sad to hear about your engine when you told us at the Manor Ho on Saturday. Personally, I would push hard for a new engine rather than a rebuild if at all possible. I've been pretty happy with my experiences at W. Houston. Hopefully they'll treat you right. If they give you any crap about track use, I'm happy to vouch for the fact that the car has never been driven fast enough to cause any damage. j/k of course. Have you thought about putting in a single mass flywheel while it's apart? Hope it resolves quickly, and in your favor. Look forward to seeing you out with it again soon, it's a beautiful car.

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But what about those moments when I actually kept it on the paved part of the track?

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I forgot about that time. Thank God for CPO. Hopefully you'll have your car back with a brand new engine in it, and with enough time to break it in before Feb!

I'd like to hear the details of this failure.... We now have an IMS retrofit (not to be confused with our update applied to ndisassembled engines) that can be applied with the engine assembled, its a development that we have been working with for a while and are still testing. This might be your toicket as it sounds like the IMS hasn't failed totally yet.

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Jake, Can you share info on the IMS retrofit? Just curious.

This is a new product... Its available for the later engines that incorporate the removeable IMS bearing revision from the factory. These are all 3.2 and larger engines, even the early 3.2 engines don't have this as they share the generation 1 IMS from the factory, like the 2.5 and 2.7. When the factory changed the IMS so it could be more easily replaced, they actually weakened it further and thats why the 3.2 and later engines have the worst IMS failures. The retrofit that we have worked with LN Engineering to create is capable of being added with the engine in the car, and fully assembled. The unit is grossly overbuilt and utilizes the latest bearing technology. We are currently testing a version of this that utilizes a ceramic bearing, but many miles will have to be implemented before its released. Once again, the retrofit is developed as a preventive measure to assembled engines, not to be confused with our IMS update the encompasses the entire IMS shaft and utilizes the most developed technology that we have and can only be applied with complete engine disassembly and IMS shaft modifications. Both the update and retrofit versions of the IMS arrangement are cryogenically enhanced... The units don't share the same components because of the design differences required to make them both the most effective in their intended applications. It'll take a lot more testing before the retrofit is able to be sold.

Jake , Do you have a calculation of the cost of this retrofit aprox.? I mean the piece + work TIA

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Jake, as for the failure itself, I basically heard a rattling noise just prior to turning into the local hotel after a running an uneventful, but fast DE at TWS. As I was unloading the car, I noticed the oil pouring from the bell housing/block interface. I had it towed back to my local dealer here in Houston. All he has told me is that the IM shaft has failed and that they await word from PCNA. Your well thought out products look like they would really help this "common" defect. However, as I am (supposedly) having this work done under a CPO warranty, I have little doubt that I won't be able to specify the use of anything but Porsche parts. I will alert you if my situation changes. In the meantime, let me know if there is anything I can do to help your program.

I have been to Jake's and seen his new IMS, the shop, and his lab myself. The differences of the IMS would be obvious to anyone. I had forgotten the cryogenics Jake told me about. I need to research the process, but from what I understand it significantly increases the strength of the parts, in addition to the seriously upgraded design. I've been posting on the Boxster forums since I am having my 3.2 upgraded to the full 3.6 performance motor first. I saw an x51 he was working on while there. I didn't realize just how much different they are from the regular Carreras. I'm happy for you that you're still under warranty, but I would be tempted to get Jake to fix it anyway. That would be a hard decision to make though, when Porsche will likely fix it free, unless they use the racing issue against you. I don't know whether porsche does that or not. On an OT note, I did hear that Nissan is using the GPS in the GTR's, automatically determining if any of the cars have been in close proximity to any pre-determined tracks, then canceling warranties electronically, making it incumbent on the owner to prove the car has not been raced. This is just one of the many methods they've used to cancel warranties. I also hear they are removing the launch control on the new models. I'm not sure why they even built the car, but without launch control the 0-60 and 1/4 times will more accurately reflect the 4k lbs of this ugly beast.

Obviously, the IMS is a problem, so much so that Porsche removed it completely from the new 9A1 engine that powers the '09+ 997 cars.

I think that It's important to get information, and the choice to decide what to do. I'm going to see my Porsche Specialist next Sunday and will give him the whole info a I have from Jake. He is very interested in this program. I lo ve my car and I'll probably have it for lots of years... so I'm thinking seriously to upgrade the IMS in a future and add some improvements.

Unfortunately, Porsche seriously frowns on what we are doing with these engines.. I have a letter on my desk from them right now thats going to complicate the program, certainly thats not fair to the consumers that just want the issues addressed. Also, there is NO WAY that Porsche would allow the use of our components at a dealership or for warranty repairs- no way! The cost of the IMS retrofit will be around 600.00, as long as the testing goes well and we do not encounter any additional developmental costs. The application of the retrofit to a car that has no impending IMS issues would be the best possible situation and the cheapest as well... After a bearing has totally failed and the engine has munched it's self nothing can be done except a tear down and rebuild with our full updates. As for cost, the IMS retrofit would probably end up costing 1500-2500.00 dependent upon the labor charges of your local shop...

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Did they give you any reason why and can you tell us? ///Michael

Does PCNA monitor all these forums? I would have thought them to be too arrogant to worry about what gets done in the aftermarket, particularly after they have moved ahead to a new design. I know they have made it near impossible for any non dealer to work on the 2009 engine. Even if you could hack the third version of the Porsche tester, you maintain a connection with the factory for it to work. At least that's what I've been told, I have vendors who do that to us. With some we pay annual support fees, and maintain a connection to their database, just to be able to use a tool. As a result they have access to everything we do. Particularly if we make any script changes, we will get a friendly email. I hate to think about car manufacturers taking the same approach.

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5 pages of "reasons" why..

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Were they all BS legal reasons, or did they actually site any sort of technical issues (valid or not) with what you have started doing with the IMS and related bearings?

All BS. But I know this is only the beginning.

Sorry What's the meaning of BS? thanks 2000-2500 $ is a cheap solution if you are avoiding a IMS failure which would end in a catastrophic blown engine Nice news the IMS retrofit

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Joaquin, BS = Bull **** I seem to be your "bad language" translator!

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Thanks TIM In the acronym dictionary there were 172 meanings ha ha

Damn. All this talk about IMS failure at low miles, and my extended after market warranty that I have had ZERO problems to use it on - expires in a few months!

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I have the perfect solution for you. Buy a 2009 with the new 9A1 motor. It does not have an Intermediate Shaft. Problem solved! You are Welcome!

I say wait two years and get that 2009 P car for about $35K less money.

And wait to see what issues the 9A1 engine has that will come to surface in the coming years....

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You hit in the nail! Porsche did a complete demostration how far they can go with the M96/97 engines... The only important thing for them is the profit = MONEY-MONEY-MONEY $$$$$$$$. The customers are in second or third place. Do you really guys think that they have build a high endurance and troublefree new engine? We know how Porsche works and "how important" we are for them ... It's incredible to build this BS M96 with the internal failures for a long decade without solving the problems. The first error was the dry sump, then the way to build these engines, but the worst stuff has been the response to all the clients who had suffered issues. They have a very profitable department just ready to rebuild blown engines instead of solve the problem cutting the root. I always will clap all the private initiatives like Raby, Autofarm or others which are fighting against the gigant.

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It surprises me, the amount of Porsche bashing from Porsche fans. Which car maker is more customer focused and less profit driven? I would guess Porsche is one of the better. Do really believe Porsche ignored engine failures so they could profit from replacement engines? It takes a long time to develop new technology so four years until a 3.6 and then four more for a new powerplant seems about normal. Out of curiosity, what is the high performance and high endurance engine that you want? Has there ever been a Porsche engine that meets those criteria? Or any other high end sports car? Try owning a Ferrari (80k for a GM transmission with a modified belhousing) No offense to Jake, he has a great reputation, and seems to be doing some very good work, but he also doesn't have over 100k engines in service for the last decade, so although his work looks promising, we're not really sure his technology is the fix either.

Well, I just spoke with the service adviser and he said that PCNA will be delivering a new engine next Tuesday. It should be ready to go by the end of next week. Perhaps not surprisingly, he was rather tight lipped as to the mode of failure (Q: Did the bearing race fail or did the IMS walk out of the Block? A: /crickets/). He just said "internal engine failure" and I'm getting a new engine with a two year unlimited mile warranty. I guess I should thank my lucky stars for CPO. I also asked about the clutch wear. He didn't know, but said that a new kit is about $800 and he'll "check on the extra labor". I asked if it take more time to install a new clutch as opposed to reinstalling the old one. A: /crickets/. He apparently had not had his morning coffee. At least I should be back running my rolling chicane routine for the February DE.

The majority of what we are doing has been proven for around 3.5 years with exception of the newest IMS retrofit bearing assembly. While thats not 10 years with hundreds of thousands of miles we at least have been working on it while others have sat on their hands and done nothing. When someone creates a time machine that will allow us to cycle the engines for a hundred thousand miles in 30 minutes of test time we'll be able to answer the questions of how what we are creating will live over the serious long haul... But thats nothing but fiction and until then we'll have to do the best we can and test our components as harshly as possible in my lab and in the field with data acquisition, doing our best to force failures. As I have stated in several forums already, if we experience a SINGLE failure of a customer's engine its game over for our program and we know that. Due to this there are no risks being taken and the parts are being made as grossly overbuilt as possible and nothing is being spared cost wise when creating them and testing them. Hell, we went through 3 generations of the IMS update before the first unit was ever employed into even a test engine! Certanly time will tell how effective we have been and trust me, I hope to be sitting here 12-15 years from now making people eat their words who have said negative things about the effectiveness of the program we have created, but luck has a hell of a lot to do with that. Anything I am associated with will only be done a scientifically and comprehensively as possible... That said, in about 3 months I'll have an Employee on the payroll whos only job is to drive an updated M96 engined Boxster 300+ miles a day all across this country to gain time and wear on our engines. I hope to employ him until the engine does reach 100K miles without any issues and the best part is he'll be able to drive the car to allow others to experience what we have created all over this Continent. It may only be one single vehicle instead of hundreds of thousands but I'll bet that Porsche didn't do anything similar to it when they developed the M96 engine. Our method of engine assembly doesn't include robots or devices that torque fasteners 16 at a time ike at the Porswche factory today. We are using the same approach that Porsche used with the aircooled 911 when it was a hand built vehicle with an engine assembled by a single highly motivated, enthusiastic specialist individual from start to finish. This approach isn't cheap, isn't fast but it is the approach that got Porsche where they are today and guess what, that approach is still believed to be employed by lots of people that buy new Porsches. There are no clocks in my shop and my Employees are not paid based on their productivity. The ONLY thing I give a damn about is effectiveness. remember, I have a very successful aircooled business and really have taken on the M96 as a challenge-

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Porsche has some pretty darn high profit margins : I would say Porsche is focused on making money and racing. The customers come in 3rd place. I think Porsche's accountants ran the numbers and it turned out to be more economical for them to replace engines as needed (until warranties expire), rather than issue a massive service action. Corvette... Viper... BMW M3... even Nissan 350z. May not be high end, but Porsches of today are mass produced just like each of these cars. I don't think Porsche has given their customers an explanation or fix that they deserve. Having said all that, I love mine and it's the way a sports car should be and feel. For now, the driving and owning experience outweigh the potential future mechanical woes. And if it ever gets to the point where the potential future woes outweigh the experience, then I will probably move on to a GT3 or Turbo. My Porsche is my super-model and I have a love and hate relationship with her. ///Michael

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Greg, good for you, a new X-51 engine! Sweet! You are right on for calling them on the "extra labor" cost if you want/need to install a new clutch kit. A box of donuts or breakfast pastries could go a long way to help eliminate the thought of any "extra labor" charges. you could drop them off to the service manager and say something like, "This is a small way of saying how much I appreciate the work you and your techs did to get my issue identified. Please make sure you let the techs know that I appreciate what they do." While you are at it, you may want to consider a new throwout bearing too. They are about $80 +/-. Also have them check the throwout bearing guide tube for wear. Those are about $40 +/-.

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I'll take that job Jake, and even supply the car

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I just want to have the same endurance and high mileage reability as air cooled engines. I know lots of people (air cooled owners) in Soloporsche forum with a high mileage cars. I want unless the same because my car should have the latest technology and not an engine developed with several problems which never were fitted. Ferrari never built any reability car, neither in the early years and nor nowadays

Great news Greg! I'd push them a bit on the clutch install. They should be able to do it for you for parts and maybe a VERY minimum amount of labor. It's not like they are taking a loss on the parts.

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I would guess the high mileage air cooled guys have done an expensive rebuild at some point, at least the top end. I agree, it is a bummer that the M96 is not (or has not been) rebuildable, although I am not sure that makes it a higher cost of ownership vs. an air cooled 911. Perhaps it's just more palatable to say "the engine needs to be rebuilt" rather than "the engine needs to be replaced."

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FWIW, a friend of mine had to have his 964 engine rebuilt... $16,000. With the 996 engine, you get a new one with a warranty for a fair amount less than that. I don't think air-cooled engines are bullet proof, and they costs a fair amount to fix.

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Welcome to the "Fresh Engine Club" Greg! I guess now that the only older 996 running at TWS without a new engine is Greg Stewart's. I hope this doesn't jinx him.... If you want to go the LWFW / stage 2+ clutch route, I can recommend you look at this forum's sponsor AASCO. I have their aluminium (yes that IS spelled correctly) LWFW which is a a good upgrade for the money (~$900). I am tentatively planning an engine drop GTG for 27 or 28 Dec. to put the stage 2 clutch kit in (~$600). Worse come to worse you just have the dealer put the old clutch in and we'll do your upgrades together with mine.... Joost

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Not new. It's a remanufactured engine. What happen if your engine is blown with 20.000 km and they give you a 80.000 km reman engine? You'll never know it. Have you seen Jake's web ? There are several examples of reman. engines ... look at the cilinders...

I'm VERY interested in Jake's efforts, as I'm about to start racing a 996. Hopefully I won't need his help in the near future, but if he can provide a cost competitive, improvement over the Porsche replacement engines (be they new or reman's) that will be fantastic.

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Mike, since your 996 is out of warranty, it probably won't come as a shock to realize that the aftermarket M96 improvements (see the Dec08 issue of Excellence) are much cheaper if installed prior to grenading your engine internals. If I was in your position, I would seriously consider it. Our fellow PCA'ers would probably still be pretty honked off if I dumped 10 qts of Mobil1 on TWS rather than the 'Ho parking lot. (Does that make it Jagger's Greasy 'Ho?)