996 Purchase - PSM wanted but needed?

Hi All, I'm a former 964 C2 owner and in the market for a 996. I am keen on a Tiptronic 992 C4 Coupe as they came with PSM as standard. In calling my local Porsche Dealer (Melbourne, Australia) and asking about stock availability he said that not many C4's were sold into the Aussie market as they were about $15K more expensive and many new purchasers could not justify the extra $$$ for "so small a gain" Until the Cayennes hit the market, only about 400 new Porsches were sold yearly here downunder. (It's now around 800 cars/year) I note that PSM is raved about in the 996 factory book and I'm keen to have not only the better handling of the 996 but also a "safety net" in case I do "hit that hairpin too fast with wet leaves on the road" I note that the dealer menu for 996's shows PSM as a $2500 option so I presume that it can be retro fitted. My Questions are: * Is all the PSM stuff already in the car ex-factory, needing only activating by the dealer or is it a "black box" attachment that interfaces with the cars computer? * Has anybody got PSM on their C2 or C4 and do you feel it's worth the effort trying find a used car with it or retor fit it? TIA Soon-to-be-happy-once-again Mark

I don't have PSM, and to be honest, don't miss it. The car has more grip than I expected, and is not a handful like previous 911's. Don't get to caught up on the PSM, find yourself a nice clean 996 and enjoy.

MS911, Firstly, welcome to the forum. Now with respect to PSM, I have never driven a car with PSM but I must admit I don't miss it on my car. My 993 was definitely twitchier than the 996 and even then I didn't suffer any adverse reactions to my spirited driving. The 996 is more planted and definitely more forgiving than the previous 993/964s. You can through it around quite comfortably and it wont bite too hard Also, I doubt you can retrofit PSM to the car as there are a number of sensor that need to be in place for it to function. Why not drive a 996, if you haven't already, and see what it is like. Better yet get Peter Sullivan to take you for a spin, he will convince you that you have no need for PSM The C4 will definitely give you a different sense driving it - more reassuring but definitely less fun overall Oh and by the way, if you do end up buying a 996, run and run as fast you can from this forum, it will hurt your bank account balance

PSM is great if you are driving in the slick stuff. I have driven on glare ice and it makes the car driveable, and it is interesting to play with in the rain. However, it is intrusive at the track and sometimes, though rarely, even in normal street driving. You can't shut the system completely off (search these forums for more discussion on that subject) I'd be happier without mine and I suspect you will be happier without it.

PSM is no different than ABS - having it is a definite plus but 99.9% of the time you will never need it. Where these things really come in handy is not in spirited driving, when you are focussed on the job at hand, but on those days when you are just not in that mode or things come out of the blue - such as diesel on the road (not much of a problem in the U.S.) The first time mine cut in was a on a very cold morning bringing my kid back from soccer practise and before I got the snow tires on. Surrounded by a sea of mini-vans and SUVs I was making a left onto a very busy road. A small gap opened and I figured I would use the power to get be safely out of the way but I used too much gas for tires that were that cold - the back kicked out and the PSM cut in. I think without it I would have made a horses *** out of myself. Personally I am glad to have it, especially since I plan to drive the car during the winter but I would certainly not say that it was a requirement. Best of luck! Barry

I dont have it and have not had any problems, but then again I live in San Diego!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I drove in real winter conditions I would get it, other than that you do not need it. Robert

PSM came standard on my C4. I have never driven the car to the point where PSM took over and actually the light has never come on. If you find a car you look and it has PSM, great. However, I would not make a decision over a car based on PSM / No PSM.

You just need to liven up the driving a bit!

PSM, like any other safety feature won't be missed until it saves you from an unexpected event. Since most of us will never in a situation where we loose control of the car, I'm not surprised that those without it feel it's an unnecessary option. I, on the other hand, appreciate that I have PSM given the cars tremendous capabilities and unpredictable nature of the road, weather, surrounding drivers, etc. I've driven my car on the race track and autocross and I have found that PSM overkill on the autocross. On the race track, I used PSM as a gauge of how smoothly I was driving. You can drive very quickly and even drift your car without PSM activating. Sudden under or oversteer would activate the system. That said, you can drive your 996 to very high rates of speed on the race track and be pretty competitive without PSM coming on. Some drivers never get this and use PSM to pull them around the track and give them a false sense of self confidence. They usually find out how wrong they were when they turn the system of and end up in the dirt. Is it worth the extra money? That depends on you. Ask me and I say yessss! I drive my car to work and around the state with my wife and child and I wouldn't have the car without it.

PSM cannot be retrofitted, so you will have to find a car equipped from the factory. To me PSM is cheap insurance on the street, not needed 99.8% of the time but when you do it's already intervened. I worry not about my car but all the other idiots out there on the road who are likely to do something completely unpredicted at the worst time, that's when PSM can help. On the track I leave it on, as a gauge of smoothness and a backup if I do something stupid. It's not very intrusive compared to other systems out there, BMW and Ford systems are very intrusive to the point that they are irritating (Ford). It's not the end of the world if you don't have it, and it may be very hard to find a car in your area, but if you can find a PSM car go for it IMO.

I have PSM on a C2 and consider it another safety device like ABS or the airbags. Like the airbags I don't plan to use PSM, but.......

then decide how much you're willing to "roll the dice". I have two 996s and wouldn't have bought either one without PSM. IMHO, while it one thing to get a 911 without PSM if you're a professional driver (with professional skils to go along) and don't want a possible electronic intrusion at the 95% limit, it is (or should be) a totally different situation if you're an amateur driver who routinely drives on the highway (with lots of "stupid" drivers who can induce an accident) and a "weekend racer" who ocassionally drives on a track. http://www.startribune.com/stories/435/5142988.html Best regards, John

I have PSM on my 996. It has only operated once, that I know of. An 18 wheeler cut over in front of me on the interstate, I was doing about 85. My only option was going to the space he had just vacated, which I did with a hard right turn of the wheel. The PSM kicked in, keeping me from going sideways, but more importantly slowed me enough so that when I got on the brakes hard to keep from rear ending the car in the right lane, I was able to get slowed just enough to move on over into the shoulder. I'm convinced I would have had a very serious accident without PSM. I used to turn it off when driving spiritedly through the mountains.....never again

PSM saved my life once. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/77944-not-the-best-driver-but-my-c4-did-the-unbelievable-this-sat-night.html

Thanks all for your great feedback! I would consider myself a fairly competent driver having had the 964 for 4 yrs and having done two high performance driving courses with Aussie instructors Alf Costanzo and John Bowe. The 964 almost bit me twice when I had it (both times in the wet), so looking at self preservation has attracted me to the "PSM" issue. From what listers are saying it seems that the 996 C2 is more predictable/safe than the 964, so I would likely notice that on a standard non-PSM 996 anyway. I will keep looking and if I happen to find "the car" whether it is C2 or C4, will be happy knowing that either is a step upwards in safety from the 964. ArthurK, it seems you are in my neighbourhood. Would love to see your 996 as the only ones I have seen have been at the dealers (you never feel like you get the full juice from these guys) My 10 y.o. daughter is begging me to get a cab (I have had 2 x SAAB convertibles previously), so now that I have resolved the PSM matter it is really between a coupe or cab! Best, Mark Strachan [email removed] www.artistphotographer.com +++++++++++++++++++++++ 2003 Silver SAAB 93 Aero Sedan/Bi-Xenons/Sunroof/17's sold in 2003 964 C2 midnight blue coupe, manual, 16's

Mark, No dramas in seeing my 996. Who have you been talking to at PCM? They are really great IF you are serious about a purchase. The guys there would hand over cars to me for 2-4 hours or even the day. They didnt know me from a bar of soap at the time either. Took me 3 months before I bought the 993. I would highly recommend you speak to Peter Sullivan he is the used car sales manager but extremely good. Give him your requirements and he will find you a car. The only thing with Peter is that he has a dry personailty and you dont know when he is serious or joking

it really depends on road + weather conditions........ PSM and all other safety devices are not needed untill you will find that you should have had one..... here in Greece were i live PSM is for sure one THE most wanted safety option....since road condition is horrible....imagine when weather condition gets bad as well.... My 996 was bought in germany, and has been used for 8 months in UK, i have never seen PSM operating until i drove my car here in greece.... the same thing happend in my 964. i used to own a 964 for 5 years in uk, and i cannot really remember how many time ABS operated in my hands.....i would assume it was les than 10 times....... again, here in greece 964's abs was suffering from operating all the time.... PSM is a very nice operating safety option, wich i believe you should look for, because it will only happens once, and having in mind that grip levels and speeds will be at very high levels then the results of loosing control of the car will be very bad....

Thanks ArthurK and Harris, Arthur, I have been dealing with Andrew Kerr at PCM, fairly young but bright. Have avoided Pierro there as he got sore when I purchased my 964 elsewhere - he actually called weeks later and said "I know you bought somewhere else" - talk about fatal attraction revisited!! I have an office in Collins Street and am on holidays this week, so we may be able to catch up this week or next. PCM invited me to a "Driving the Range" day and I shot for them (I own a photography business). I drove everything except the Turbo which they didn't have on that day. PCM called me the other day - they have an '01 Lapis Blue C2 Coupe with Silver Console and Dials. 40k's and all for only $129K (saw it advertised for $139K on www.carsales.com.au , so the 996 prices may start to soften a little more as the 997's roll out) I may test drive it, but I think I am leaning more toward the '02 996 (3.6l, updated front/rear bumpers, headlights) Best, Mark Arthur you can email me - [email removed] or call my cell 0416,224787 to organise a time to see your cab

Mark: With regards to an '01 vs. an '02, highly recommend going with the '02 or later. Porsche did a fairly comprehensive update with the 2002 model year.

Earlyapex and DJ996 have summed it up well. IMO, PSM is a well designed safety system which "learns" your limits (according to the factory manual). It is a terrific safety net when the unexpected occurs. Drive sloppy, and it cuts in sooner. Drive smoothly, and it gives you a little more rope to deal with. Drive smoothly pushing the limits of adhesion even with "PSM off", and it's still there to save you when you F things up. Some folks don't like the way PSM intervenes at the track, even when the system is turned off. The simple solution here is to get a real track car. Problem solved. Out on the street and even on the track, PSM is cheap insurance. Even professional drivers make mistakes which may or may not be "correctable". If you're not paying attention or the unexpected occurs, it's nice to have PSM on your side. Cheers

Is PSM worth it? On the one hand the 996 is so overkill that if it were driven carefully at/below our US speed limits it would be very rare indeed that PSM would be activated. A deer, debris, an accident in front of you, or situations combined with rain or snow are some of those rare instances. Some autocrossers/race drivers simply do not like the concept of a control system encroaching on their domain and may not wish to admit that a control system could outperform them. It is not a competition of driver vs. PSM. The driver cannot brake indiviual wheels, but PSM can. PSM measures "yaw" and compares this with the "expected yaw" based on the steering wheel angle and the speed. Porsche has their own unique rules (control system algorithms) as PSM is a bit different than other vehicles. I took my 1999 C4 Porsche out in the snow to see how the PSM actually functioned. Turning off the PSM did not turn off the ABS, but it did take away the Yaw control and the traction control functions. With PSM off I could spin the car, i.e. do donuts. With PSM on, flooring the throttle appeared to find all the available traction like magic. It felt like I could accelerate faster than the ABS could stop me. I.e. seemed faster from 0-30mph than 30-0mph. The PSM would allow a some sliding, but attempt donuts and the PSM would take the throttle away. I have done some "Ice Racing" with the BMW club in NH, and it is the smooth vehicles that have the fastest times. From my observations, I would suspect that excellent drivers would rarely see the PSM become active, but less skilled drivers would benefit more often. The PSM has helped me twice, unexpectedly, both times on entrance ramps in the rain. Likely saved me expensive encounters with the guard rail. Apparently, I am not in the excellent driver category, nor was I strictly within the posted speed limits at the time. When I bought my C4, I considered a number of C2's without the PSM. For me the PSM and the AWD were key differentiators. It has been worth it.

.....and you can always turn it off...at anytime, if you like.....

I remember having a discussion with a salesman who told me that PSM was a waste of money. Just coincidentally the car that he was trying to sell me didn't have PSM. My opinion was that PSM was a great safety device like ABS, and if you tracked the car you could always disable it. Well apparently Porsche agreed with my view since PSM is standard on all 997s. I agree that PSM may never be needed but it is a great to have it just in case you have to make the emergency manuver to avoid hitting a deer or some debris that falls off of some truck. One way of looking at it is that PSM is like having auto Insurance. You may never need it, but it sure is nice to have it when the need arises.

waste of money?????? it only cost around 300 euros here in greece to have it as an option.....in a brand new car......

Seems like there is a clear trend toward Stability management: http://www.esceducation.org/about_es...vehicles.shtml Audi: Electronic Stability Program (ESP). BMW: Dynamic Stability Control (DSC). DaimlerChrysler: Electronic Stability Program (ESP). Ford Motor Company: Advance Trac. General Motors: Active Handling System (Corvette), Precision Control System (Oldsmobile), Stabilitrak (Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac). Jaguar: Dynamic Stability Control (DSM). Lexus: Vehicle Skid Control (VSC) Porsche: Porsche Stability Management (PSM). Volkswagen: Electronic Stability Program (ESP). Volvo: Dynamic Stability Traction Control (DTSC).

Why not hire a chauffer to drive for you too? Stay away from the computer control as much as you can and learn to drive and have fun. Soon they will have the cars steering and accelerating for us. How boring and how low of a skill set do we need. They should have the option of eliminating the ABS too.

I am in the market for a 2000-2002 996 and I'm looking to buy a car with PSM. I owned a 2004 Infiniti G35 Coupe with VDC, which is similiar to PSM and it saved my life. I had a rear left tire blow at 75mph. My car started to swing out to the right, but VDC came on and kept my car from spinning out ot going into the center divider. Before this event I didn't see a whole lot of value in the system.

1999 I think you are missing a little bit of the point here... This has less to do with car control and more to do with the unexpected. Even the best driver in the world could still be caught out by the deer/kid/dog/diesel/manic Mom with three kids in the the back of the mini-van. One would hope that a well trained a person would react perfectly - for all other times there is PSM to offer a helping hand. Going to the track? No problem - turn it off. There you will be totally focussed, will have some friendly people with flags to warn you of problems and the traffic is all going the same way. However, I take your point about retaining control of the car. Personally I see individual control of cars as only a matter of time. Once technology has evolved sufficiently and shows a superior safety record the government will be put under pressure by the safety nuts to make automated control a requirement. Alas, that will only happen in the richer countries that can afford it - thereby making society dependant and weak... Barry

I just giving you guys a hard time. However, I am serious about the ABS. I hate them. I was able to buy a new Nissan (2004) for my son and got it without ABS. I prefer to have absolute control over drifting, traction, braking, etc. Maybe I am old school, but driving is an adventure for me and if you have to rely on a computer to correct your mistakes, how will you ever learn to drive? But for some people, I guess it is good. Just more weight and potential problems in a car IMO.

I've completed two Porsche Driving Experience courses including the masters course. The instructors there (Herley Haywwod, Doc Bundy to name a couple) love PSM. They call it the instructor's best friend. It can litterally teach one to drive more smoothly on the track. PSM was only one of two options I wanted on my car (Xenons being the other). I wouldn't buy a P-car without it at this point. Anything that makes a 180mph car safer is a good thing IMHO. It's engaged twice on my car in 18 months, both times durring sharp turns on rain slicked roads. PSM is probably the least intrusive stability control system on the market. Acoording to the PDE guys it will allow up to 7 degrees of slip angle in turns. Any more is sub-optimal. This is hardly a system that drives the car for you. Smooth drivers will almost never have the system engage, even on the most technical of tracks. Not so smooth drivers may have the system engage somewhat frequently. Now PCM is not a panacea and I twice watched fellow students at PDE spin their 996s off the track in the rain. So to think it will make up for very poor driving is a mistake. BTW, if PSM is turned off, according to the PDE instructors, it automatically switches back on as soon as the ABS activates.

I could be wrong but I think it only automatically switches back on if you activate the ABS.

Oops, yes indeed, it doesn't switch back on when you hit the brakes but when the ABS activates.

Many of the PSM comments here are about how the driver interacts with a Porsche. Porsche engineers obviously have worked hard to make this interaction very effective, with inputs from so many successful race car drivers over the years. The feeling of power and control seems like you can almost think the car around most corners or obstacles. This characteristic feel is the essential value of the Porsche, and has been achieved by some remarkable engineering. Much of this feel is achieved mechanically, but some of the feel is achieved electronically. As even more control systems are being added to newer models, we should fear they will disrupt this sweet interaction. But we should also expect they will enhance it. I'd hate to see a limit on "The Unfair Advantage" of a Porsche. PSM and ABS only enforce constraints at the edge of physical limits, and the engineers made a lot of tuning adjustments while the driver has only a PSM on/off switch. If Porsche gets this wrong, they stand to lose a lot of customers.