Crank Pulley Noise - Redux (engine drop)

For those of you who have not followed the ten pages ( https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ideo-help.html ) trying to chase down this clanking noise from the crank pulley. I decided it was time to remove the engine and try to diagnose the problem with better access. I also have to replace the cam chain guides as well. I wanted to document every step for removing the engine but for those of you who get into it you just don't want to stop every 2 minutes to take pictures. Right now the engine is out and I am ready to figure this problem out!! Here are some pictures to go with.....

Couple more for now..

Nice work, would be nice to have some rims in those tires in case those jacks fail... but I doubt they will. Did you support the other front corner with a jack when you dropped the front down, seems like the car might teeter over... If you can get a jack under the front bumper in the center there's a spot in the center right behind the trunk cavity where two of the cross members come to a v, that's where I put a block of wood and my floor jack to raise and lower the front end. Hope this turns out with a happy ending and is something simple.

I sent you a message about the tools.

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Haha, heck no.. the engine car was nearly on one jackstand at one point. I was living on the edge for a few minutes while the engine was dropping out of the car. I spent alot of time ensuring the jacks were level. I actually jacked one side in the front and the whole car lifted up. The engine wasn't entirely level but it was good enough to get her out. The entire process was easy except for the stinking coolant lines!!! Those lines were so stuck on the metal tubing it was ridiculous. I think I have to replace them afterward. Now here comes the fun part....

Update: So I began to pull apart the engine (mainly the intake, exhaust, fuel rails, etc.) So far everything looks normal. I will be sending my fuel injectors to witchhunter.com for cleaning and flow testing. Finally, I separated the engine and transmission. Throwout bearing appears to be worn but the clutch seems to have good life left on it. I still need to find the specs on the disc though. the DMF has some noise and the springs may be slightly worn out. Onto the IMS area.... I pulled the two chain tensioners (IMS and 1-3) and pulled the flange for the IMS bearing. I did find that IMS tensioner piston was stuck inside its housing when I pulled it out. I think that is was binding and may be the culprit for my knocking noise. Now for the bearing... I installed the bearing about 2 years ago when I got my car. There was some slight bearing noise prior to me removing the engine. Watch the video.... The bearing is binding.. Anyone have an explanation for this?? Is the tube supposed to be filled with oil.

Whew-looks like all very manageable fixes .Don't know about the bearing and wouldn't speculate .I would call Charles at LNE and discuss .

Certainly agree you should to talk to the expert on this one... worth the email or phone call to Charles. About the only thing I can think of is perhaps the relieved tension on the chain due to the collapsed tensioner problem caused odd loads on the bearing. Good thing you caught this now. And if the chain was slapping around that might explain the noise through the crank. Speculating.

Also unless you tear down and remove the tube to send to LNE, in order to extract that bearing you'll have to tap your bearing removal tool with the proper thread size (to match the LNE center stud since it's different from stock).

If the bearing locks like that, it is very suspect. Thanks for the pics , always interesting.

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Tear down is not an option at this point. I cannot leave my car at its location long term. I will call LNE on Monday and discuss my situation. Meanwhile I will be heading over to my car and continue my inspection.

I wouldn't trust that bearing. Any bearing that binds or feels gritty should go in the scrap bin. It would be good to toss a new clutch in while it's apart too.

Post or PM me your engines serial number and cars model year, you need to make sure you are using the correct IMS tensioner. Also if you have time, post a vid or some pics of what the suspect tensioner looks like. If you want to borrow more of my tools I can mail you my modified LN bearing extractor. It is threaded for the revised LNE stud.

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Sure, I'll email you the #'s this evening. Pictures to come...

More pics, the IMS tensioner is pictured last

Nice work. I removed my LNE bearing with the brokenbolt extractor. Just hit the stub inside the tube and install the brokenstud puller tool.... Do not hit it hard or it will be hard to fish it out of the tube (remove the circlip first, of course) I can't think of no other reason than external debries, to cause that kind of binding in ims bearing. Was there any debries in oilfilter or oil??

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I'm not sure... Aren't these under warranty? I would think LNE would send me another bearing free of cost since we paid an obscene amount for a ball bearing.

The cleaning process continues.... the engine was dirty!!! I also think I found the source of my secondary air code. RATS! Something with gnawing on my vacuum line and rubber y-fitting. As soon as I get the cam tool from Logray I will pull the valve covers off for inspection.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around whether if that IMS paddle tensioner was collapsed and there wasn't any tension on the ims to crank chain, I'm wondering if a lack of tension there but regular tension from the two heads would cause strange stresses on the bearing. Certainly though debris could be the reason. I'm thinking Charles will want to inspect the bearing before it is declared ready for re-use. You can use the special bearing puller from LNE as I suggested with modified threads or certainly a normal puller.

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Did you see the picture of the paddle through the hole that the chain tensioner goes? Is that supposed to move if you push on it with your finger? BTW: My oil has been clean ever since I did the bearing upgrade.

Yes the paddle does have forward/aft movement (since the tensioner holds it against the chain) and a very very small amount of side to side play on the pin it is attached to. Clean oil is one thing, but if any dirt or debris entered it, perhaps during the installation, it's not a good thing for a ball bearing.

The IMS tensioner paddle "wear button" appears to be compromised. If this plastic piece fails the IMS tensioner jams the paddle sideways and snaps the paddle in half.

Here's what the paddle looks like: It slides/pivots over a single pin that is pressed into the bearing carrier. Old paddle Followed by LNE billet paddle that I installed in my engine:

Re your bearing. I work with different types all the time, drawn cup needle, caged roller and ball, tapered and spherical roller. What I've found is a very small fleck of any foreign matter, just the size of a pepper grain can cause a bearing to turn roughly or drag, make noise upon rotation. If the bearing is such that it can be flushed with solvent and rotated a few times often the sticky point will subside and confidence in the bearing regained. If in doubt, study the inner and outer races under magnification. This could reveal brinelling, pitting, discoloring or other signs of eminent failure, Good luck with your project.

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Thanks for the info, I hope there is some debris lodged in the bearing that I can easily flush out. There isn't any axial or radial play in the bearing at all. It just feels like something is caught in the bearing.

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How so? I'll try to take better pictures this evening.

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You should be careful about what tolerances are acceptable, what "feels or looks by hand and eye" might show otherwise with the right gauges or tools.

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I know. I will talk to LNE tomorrow. I just order my tensioners and a long list of seals, etc... should be here in the next week or two

Alright, so I spoke to Charles @ LNE and apparently they believe the bearing race was damaged prior or during installation and recommend replacement. I ordered a new IMS bearing and oil pump hex driver. Now time to wait for my list of parts to come. In the meantime, I will be removing the valve covers for inspection.

Keep up the good work, take your time, don't rush it!

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Will do, Hey do you think its okay to pull the cams off while the IMS flange and all three chain tensioners are removed? I was thinking it was okay as long as I'm careful. Also, what is the best method for cleaning the crud off the walls of the intakes in the head (between the valves and fuel injectors)? Toothbrush? small wire brush? a cleaner?

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Regarding question 1. Carefully READ the work shop manual. There are very specific steps regarding cam removal and you don't want to screw them up, otherwise you will damage parts. But in short, yes removing the paddle/ramp tensioners is part of the procedure, and you should be fine. When you are done with all of this of course you will want to triple check (and adjust accordingly) the timing before firing up the engine. Question 2, best method is honestly to remove the heads and disassemble them. Then give them a proper wash during a valve job (bead blasting is debatable). If you stick tools and cleaners and stuff down in the intake ports and/or intake risers you risk getting crap in there and then debris in the cylinders which is a MAJOR "no no" !!!! Basically if you aren't going to rip the heads off, then leave it alone.

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I am following the manual, it just doesn't mention if you can do it without the IMS flange installed or not. Otherwise I have to wait for the bearing to show up and install it prior to removing the cams which will hold me up.

IMS bearing and flange must be installed when setting the tdc, before removing the cam's. Allso the chain tensioners must be in place when you set the tdc. Note that you must turn the crank 360deg after finishing the first side. Setting the timing is the 2:nd hardest part when rebuilding these engines... IMO So read and understand the manual, if there is anything that you cant figure out, ask

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I already set the engine to TDC prior to pulling off the IMS flange for inspection. The motor right now has the IMS flange removed, 1-3 tensioner removed and IMS tensioner removed.

Ok, you can take one head apart before you get the bearing. Take the roundplugs off from the cylheads and check cam positions. From the hole above the scavengepump, you see the groove in intake cams. When 1-3 cyl is in right position groove in the camshaft will face outward. If the intake cam in bank 1-3 is in correct position, you can take it apart. If not, take the bank 4-6 first. Check the service manual on installing camshaft's, cams must be in the same positions when removed or installed. Remember, you need to rotate the crank 360deg after the first head is done to get the next one on right position. So this can be done after you put bearing and tensioners back.

Here you can see correct position for cyl.head 1-3 For the cyl 4-6 groove should point inwards.

Thanks! I already made sure that #1 is TDC so the 1-3 bank should be good. Of course I will verify by popping the plugs out. I think I may just stick the flange in and partially thread the bolts back in just in case. The last think I need is the chain jumping a tooth or something. I should have the cam holder tool this evening so I will be removing the 1-3 head cover tonight. Afterwards I will be inspecting the lifters for damage and pump some clean oil through them. I've read that it is as simple as submerging the lifter in oil and pressing the spring.

Threads like these is why I LOVE rennlist!! Great work and good luck!

Ryan -you probably won't like this post .The lifters are another achilles heel. There are two parts to them the cam follower and the lifter .Out of 24 I had 7 sticking .The problem in cleaning them is that the hole for the lifter is inside the cam follower .There may be a way to disassemble them but I couldn't figure it out .I cut one apart and the lifter hole is really ,really small .The point being that cleaning them is a 50/50 deal .I have read hot oil (can with oil on a hotplate) might work . The point being if the budget allows new lifters are a good idea .I think Logray found a deal . Dave

I got new lifters from here link to Ebay.de Shipping is for europe, but might ship to states allso?? Seller did respond with english... You can allso use the part numbers that are on the ad, and find similar parts from states

Pelican Parts has them.

I get a lot of stuff from Partsgeek.com .Pretty good prices and overnight delivery to SE Pennsylvania .

I just removed the cams from the 1-3 bank. Fairly straight forward with a few pointers from Logray. Pics to come.

Here are some pics of the work I accomplished today. Lifters were good IMO. As you can see the lower chain guide was pretty worn versus the top one (not bad for 100k miles). I was pleasantly surprised how clean the inside of the engine was... amazing. I am going to hang tight until Thursday when the majority of my parts show up. Quick question... What is the best way to bench test the variocam solenoid? Hook a 12v or 9v up to the solenoid?

Ryan I really admire your skill and courage to do this....

Hey that cam hold down tool looks familiar To test the solenoid you can put an ohmmeter across the leads, it should read around 13 ohms. To test the actuator out of car is black magic, from what I can understand, unless it's already in the engine. Did you remove the lifters or leave them in? Keep the engine well covered and dirt out, cleanliness is very very important. If you can clean the cam cover you can temporarily place it back on the head and use a couple bolts to keep it from falling off. If you want to buy new lifters I found a place in Florida with great price, but they've raised the price significantly. Here is an alternate supplier I had which still has a decent price. These are gen 1 lifters: http://www.dasautosport.com/khxc/eco...1_748_884.html

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Wow, 210 EU shipped is a fantastic deal, but I don't see USA destination listed. There was a auction in Germany I missed out on last year, I could have had 24 new lifters for about $150 USD.

I pulled each lifter out and inspected it (they look good). I tried to "pump" them in oil but I could not get any of the lifters to move. Is this normal? How much should that piston move if at all?

There is small ballvalve inside the lifter, so it's normal that you can't get those move. At least not with fingers.

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Good, all of mine on the 1-3 bank appear to be fine then. I did notice that there was some sealant in the journals for the cams that I had to scrap out. This surely effected the oiling of the camshafts.

I probably shouldn't post this but ......The fact that the plunger doesn't move is not the entire story .In my research it appears that the when these things clog up they tend to fail collapsed .I do not know a real definitive way to check this but this is what I did .I took several and soaked them in boiling oil which with some pushing on the plunger got out enough oil to ascertain where the top of the plunger should be .Maded a template and measured the rest -7 of 24 were stuck .Not saying yours are good or bad . I think Jake Raby had a post on lifters sometime back .

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Do I want to ask how you did this? What was your measurement on the good plunger? Also, I don't recall having that much lifter noise on the 1-3 bank, the 4-6 bank might be a different story.

I am not sure you want to know .I ended up replacing them because I wasn't confident they were right .If you want to try it -hot plate -good sturdy muffin tin -oil and start cooking .Use a tick (dowel ) and just keep working the plunger .Ultimately you will evacuate the oil and if stuck it may free up .These things are small and at the end of the oil food chain . The only reason I originally brought it up is that you are into a major reconstruction and stuff like this can spoil the party .

$20.00 each at Partsgeek .

Yeah I hear ya. Unfortunately my pockets aren't very deep for this project.. I'm already around $1.5k in parts/tools. I was expecting to drive the car all this year without any unusual maintenance, until this clank noise started.

If replacement is not an option I would boil them.Perhaps others on here have a diffent experience or opinion .Really didn't want to ruin your day

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Hahaha, I don't know how comfortable I would be boiling oil. How about using a propane torch to heat them up?? j/k I still have not clearly found the source of the clanking noise. So far everything points toward the IMS tensioner/IMS bearing combination. I'm thinking about dropping the oil pan for the heck of it.. if I have enough sealant to re-install

Let's change boil to simmer .You could use the propane to heat the pan the oil is in (not as good as hotplate )The only way this procedure works is with hot oil .In the old days we used to soak them in gasoline but that would probably have the Porsche police descending . I would not put a torch directly on a lifter .Does stuff to the structure . As far as the clank -I thought the tensioner was stuck and also the contact point on the arm was partially worn away ?Don't think removing the pan will reveal much -although good to check screens for sealant -debris etc .

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The tensioner was stuck but the contact point was good to go.

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You can't see the ims tube from there, but I think that it would be wise to do that anyway. Just to check that there is no debries....

Back to the clank.......if noise wasn't there when you stored car for the winter the odds are pretty good that it is the tensioner freezing from inactivity .

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That is a possibility. Although I can't confirm that it didn't make the noise prior to storage. I moved from Nebraska to PA in November and the car spent alot of time sitting, driven hard, sitting, etc.. I finally put her to bed sometime in December. I had so much going on that I didn't pay attention to any clanking. There was new roads and curves to drive on!

Did you get that bearing out yet?

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Not yet, the packages are starting to come in as we speak.... I will pop it out after I get the cams reinstalled on the 1-3 bank. Anxious or just need your extraction tool back?

Nope, just wondering!

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So I just installed the 1-3 cams & head cover... pretty easy once you get the cams lines up and the holder in place. I didn't take that many pictures because I was in the zone. I got the IMS bearing today and it looks different from my first bearing. I will be installing it this evening. I will take pictures for sure.

Update: Finally got the new IMS bearing installed!! It was a PITA let me tell you. Below are some pics of the bearing install and I became to disassemble the 4-6 bank. So far so good, I had to call it quits for the night since my knees were about to give out from kneeling. It feels like I am making some decent progress now, still waiting on the tensioners and intake manifold gaskets to come in. I have to measure and see how much life is left on my clutch disc. Anyone know of any methods to "freshen up" the pressure plate and flywheel? There appears to be slight glazing on the FW. Thanks!

Just remembered... I couldn't find the torque spec for the bolts on the oil pump in the manual. I would assume 7.5 ft lbs?? Anyone know?

Nice work. Did you try to call me last night, sorry I wasn't near the phone and saw it really late (or early your time). Torque for those bolts... yes 7.5 ft lbs.

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Yeah, I was having a situation with that new IMS bearing install (i was hoping you had a different technique). I could not get it to go in for the first 3 attempts. Finally after letting it sit on ice for 30 mins I managed to get it in there.

Yes, had mine in the freezer overnight. The second time it was much easier with the tube on the bench.

RPM - You're my hero. Diving right into the deep end of some very complicated kit. Good for you. Fearless! I tried this on my Datsun when I was a kid a created a small lawn ornament.

Haha, im not out of the woods yet. I still have to get the engine back in. I was an aircraft mechanic for years so i figure a car isn't any more complicated. I am typically only limited by my resources (equipment and $$) otherwise ill tackle any project.

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In the machine shop when I had to install something that needed to be smaller I would soak the part in a bucket of dry ice and acetone. If the acetone could wash away critical lubricant just suspend the part by wire just above the dry ice in a bucket with just a few inches of dry ice in the bucket. The cold will stay in the bucket and the part will be chilly in just a few minutes. Sincerely, Macster.

Damn, project is delayed... i have two bad exhaust lifters on #6. They are really easy to push in. Hence a noise i noticed a while back. I thought it was my exhaust rattling.

Is my flywheel bad? I believe it may be <15mm travel in each direction.

I'm not expert, but that doesn't sound particularly healthy to me. Does it pass the other tests? I would get some more input. If the flywheel is high miles, is scored, and the springs sound unhealthy more than likely you'll be back in there sooner rather than later. If the flywheel is making unusual noises, maybe that is contributing to the problem noise you were having?

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Yea the spring is making noise but I don't think it is moving out of limits. I recall it making the same noise back when I installed the first IMS bearing. My budget at the moment is at its limit too. I think I will just clean the FW off and ride it out. I really don't think it has anything to do with the crank pulley noise though. I ordered the lifters today. They should be delivered by Tuesday afternoon. Logan, I expect to have this engine back in by next weekend. As soon as I get her running I will send the tools back to you.

Still waiting for the lifters to come from Pelican, I decided to clean up the FW and pressure plate since I have a lot of life left on the clutch disc. Mated the transmission and cleaned my suspension a bit.

Just got my fuel injectors in from witchhunter performance. Only $135 to refurbish and flow test all six injectors. I was surprised to see that the flow test report only showed minimal improvements.. this is because the injectors were already leak free and had good spray patterns prior to cleaning apparently. They do look like new though!!

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There is a TSB for inspecting the FW. You can find it with a membership over on the Renntech site, but it basically wants you to look for a relatively small deflection in each direction away from center, with a return to center when you stop trying to turn the FW.

Gentlemen, I got the lifters put in the car. The engine is back in the car and I will be doing the final activities today (compressor, coolant, oil, and tensioner installation). Everything went back together very easily. The only part that was a PITA was the slave cylinder even when the engine was lowered.

Yes that slave cylinder makes me curse every time...

For next time: Porsche TSB 1360 8/02 assessment of DMF… The twist below must be carried out by hand and without any tools. Twist distance to be measured at the external diameter of the DMF Can the DMF be twisted by approx.. 15mm to both left and right, and does it then return to approx. its initial position? If yes good Can DMF be twisted beyond 15mm (excessive turn) without a noticeable increase in the spring force? Yes = bad, no = good

Alright... So I started the engine today. Sounds much better after taking it around the block! The engine is much quieter after the chain guides and the lifters were replaced and leak free! Bad news: the noise coming the crank pulley is still there!!! It is obvious at this point that the noise is coming from something within the crankcase OR it is the flywheel. This car will not be getting anymore attention this year. Its a shame that I could not pinpoint the noise after all this work but my budget could not handle me going any further. In the meantime I will driving the **** out of it.

Nice job Ryan! Now time to take a break and next year you will probably know what your problem is Once again nice job Robert 2000 C4

Hey I was thinking today, what do you think about maybe bringing the car to a Porsche dealer for a second opinion? Maybe they can diagnose it easily?

"Mr RPMulli, We were unable to externally diagnose the reason for the abnormal noise coming from your engine. We regret to inform you that in order to fully diagnose the reason for the abnormal noise we would need to completely dismantle your engine at the rate of $150 per hour at 80 hours of labor. Once the problem is identified new parts will be available for purchase at MSRP + margin, and then the engine reassembled by one of in house engine build "experts" (because we do this all the time). The reassembly will require 80 hours of labor. Because of the extraordinary cost this would incur including parts and labor, we recommend a more sensibly priced replacement engine for your vehicle, which is currently discounted at $28,000, including a non-refundable core deposit. Sincerely, Dr. Porsche."

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Scratch that idea....