P-bug bite going or 996 losing novelty?

Before anybody jumps on my case, let me tell you I like most Porsches; from 2.4 911s to 944S2s or Turbos to Boxter Ss to Cayman S and through 996 Ss and 997 Ss and TTs. Okay, GT3s as well. And I'm not a snob for anything. But after two years of P-bug bite infection, and trying to find one, researching and test driving, I now don't feel as strong about P-cars. Am I sick totally sick this time? What is this disease??? Let me break it down a bit. When I had a 2.4 911, there was a great feeling of rawness and the sound of clicking and clacking of the aircooled engine. The lightness of the car, etc. Not as fast as todays, but that feeling is wonderful. I'm connected to the road. Lately, after test driving different cars, I feel most of them are about the same, only varying a bit on drivability finesse and luxury appointments. What happened? Anyway, what's worse is when I test drove an STI and an '03 C4S one the same day (previously drove a std 996 too), I lost interest on the Porsche. The STI reminded me of what sports cars were used to be. Why is this? Has anybody done some comparison with other cars too? I'm at a lost for words.

Bummer... If I were you I'd start drinking; because you have serious problems Hope you find what it is you really want

You really don't want a Porsche, you are looking for a feeling that you thought a Porsche would give you, but didn't. Take a look at the Scubies, they are a terrific car and maybe it will give you what you are looking for with Japanese reliability and at price at far less than joining the P-Club. I wanted another 911 since I sold my SC back in '85. Wife bought a Boxster a few years ago and I drove it more than she, then she asked me to please buy my own. I looked long and hard for the perfect Carrera and after 15 months, I found a near mint very heavily optioned '99 996 Cab. I bought it nearly 4 years ago. I'm still extremly satisfyed with my choice and have looked a newer and new Porsches, and none give me the same satisfaction as the one I own. Hope you find what makes you smile!

Tomorrow, I mean later today, I'll check out the Evo 9. I just finished doing a bit of reading comparing the two. And there should be more surprises with the Evo. I'm afraid that this is what's going to put me on the other side. I know I'll always love Porsches, but right now, I have to experience others. Why are cars suddenly sounding like women? I guess there's truth to 'Variety is always best'. I know the sexy looks and luxury sporty ride are big advantages of Porsches, but since I'm involved with sports I don't really feel the big difference of the ride qualities that much, perhaps on longer rides. And lately, 996 look has worn out on me, except the C4S and TT. Maybe I just need some sleep.

From the way you sound....you'll never truly be satisfied until you have another porsche. May take you a few more cars and years to realize it. Perhaps now is not the "right" time for you, and you are rationalizing. I just got my 996 one month after my third kid was born. It was a MUST...wifey finally saw that. J

Lets see what happened? Do you think anyone today would pay 80-100k for an aircooled, light. clickity, clackity car with little to no luxury appointments? People do not want that car any longer in the new car. You have to think about the market today. People want a Porsche that can be driven to the office the office every day, and occasionally drive at the tack. Even the GT 3 now come with standard sun roof, nav etc. The reason being is that is what will sell the most cars. That is the Porsche goal is to not make a car that is perfect for a few people, but a 911 that is great in many ways for many people. Go drive one on a back road in some twisties, listen to the engine, enjoy the AC, better sound system, comfortable seat and non rattling interior! They are great cars. There is a reason Porsche is not having unprecedented success in history of the company. They are building greeat cars!

I have found that I appreciate my '99 C4 Cab more now than when I bought it. The more I drive it as an every day driver the more I like it. It is a great car overall. Other cars may give that raw, elemental feel, but it wears thin after a few days of driving. Give me a 911!!

I was in a very similar position 6 months ago. An expanding family and career meant I couldn't enjoy my occasional use only street/track modified 911 anymore. I needed a daily driver that would do everything for me...track/street/short trips with the kids I had my sights set on either a STI or a 996 (we don't get the Mitsu EVO in Canada). I drove a few STI - LOVED them for the raw feel, great speed, the iconoclastic image, and I was a little put off by the reliability issues with the 996 as well. STI were cheaper then the 996 too. I was close real close to buying a STI. But my friends urged me to focus on the 996. I drove one or two, loved them as well. I thought long and hard and realized that if I didn't get the Porsche, then I'd be needing one in about a year's time. I realized that I can't see myself driving anything but a Porsche until the day I die. The scoob on the other hand would always be a car that I "used to own". (does that make sense). Long story short - found a really nice seal grey 2002, drive it every day and for the first time in many years feel absolutely content with my daily driver. It does everything well, it looks GREAT. I don't regret trading up from my 911.

IMHO you want something that you see on the road all the time and want to out do them. So buy something other than a Porsche and blend in with the rest of them. Porsche's are a love affair and obviously you have not found that love yet !!! If you want to stand out in the crowd then buy a Porsche...it's the prestige that comes with driving and owning one and you get everyone looking at you on the road, I mean everyone from all ages including the young kids in the car seats in the back of the mini-van will look out the window when you go buy, why, because they know that what they are looking at is no ordinary car. But driving a Sub or Mits you will not get the same response, the only ones that will respond to you are from others that drive the same car and will want to race you. If your conclusion is to buy something other than a Porsche, then good luck on the road because Porsche owners will not look at your car. Wow, is that harsh...no just my opinion BTW...I looked at STI's etc. for about a week then decided I needed to grow-up

you are not worthy...

Based on your original comments about missing that raw feeling from the old 2.4, I'd strongly suggest that you should own TWO cars. One should be a plain-Jane daily driver that gets the job done comfortably and reliably. The other should be an old air cooled 911 like you used to have, just for fun weekend drives. I am totally serious about this. What reason could you possibly have for NOT buying another air cooled 911? Is there some unspoken rule that says once you've owned and then sold one, you can never go back? No there isn't. I know what I speak of here. Personally, I am enamored by my 996. It's fast, well built, handles great, it shrugs off track days like they're just another freeway commute, etc. However, I am also very, very happy with my air cooled '84 Carrera (somewhat lightened). There is a certain rawness there that makes me feel absolutely connected to the car. It's the whole package, that unique metallic flat six growl, the go cart like steering feel, the very obvious feeling of lightness, etc., that makes the early cars unique. If you miss that feeling, go out and buy one and have fun with it.

I would wait for the Evo X which will be out soon if you are interested in the Evo.

LOL To the point!

Once I owned my first p-car, a 02 boxter, I knew that I could not go back to any other car in the same price range. Since then I have owned a 01 996 cabrio, a 04 and 05 C4S coupes, and now a 03 TT. All of these were and are my daily driver. I look forward to every day so that I can drive my car. Must admit that these cars are not for everyone, but if you are a sport car enthusiast there is no better choice than a Porsche. Good luck in your decision....

+1

I had 2 944's that cost me a fortune to bring back to spec, caused constant headaches with little things that needed replacing or fixing. Yet still, when I sold my last 944, I started scouring the net for my next Porsche (the 996)! I just love Porsches, common sense be damned! Never thought for a minute of buying a Japanese car because I couldn't see opening the garage door and smiling if I did!

I don't know what your driving style is 911m3, but I find when I really push my 02 911 I find that is where it really stands out from the crowd. Cornering, sound, and no rattles. I just can't seem to find anything else that comes close to the thrill I get from hammering on my car. It just never seem to amaze me how this thing drives. It just plain hauls ***. If you want a real 911 experience drive one like you stole it and then compare it to the competition. At the limit nothing comes close. It's just so predictable, next to impossible to get it to go sideways and it inspires confidence in you driving. Why don't you try a 2wd 911. It might just be what your looking for.

911m3, I highly suggest that you do a DE at a track with both current year STI and a 911, or better yet a GT3. You will find out big differences and capabilities.

move on, I know that I have at least one more p-car in me (TT of course) and then I'm done, I will move on the next thing that grabs my interest or maybe come back to it in a few years, I have had my boat phase, harley phase and now am having my p-car phase. I have enjoyed them all.

I had considered the Evo and STI before I bought my 01 C4 Cab. I used to have a C5 Vette. Where I live we get snow in the winter and I wanted a daily driver. What I'm getting at is that it depends what you want. The STI and Evo are very nice, fast, and capable cars. But, they are basically cheap, subcompact sedans with a lot of performance. As long as you don't miss the luxury, attention to detail, and well rounded package of a high end sports car I'd say go for it. There is definetly a HUGE price difference. And a huge difference in what you are getting. In 5-10 years the P-Car will still be a coveted Sports Car. The Subi/Mitsu will have been replaced by something faster and it won't be as satisfying. Good luck.

Well I guess we didn't adhere to his first few words when he started this thread

good or bad It was so much fun driving the EVO today, but the interior quality and the lag on first (without slipping the clutch at boost range) was dissappointing. Everything else performance-wise are top notch (steering, gear box, braking, etc). Compared to STI, I prefer the Evo. Just to be clear to others... I understand why Porsche has to adapt to survive, but I didn't realize the change is that much and a bit more towards mainstream than they should. Look at how Evo and STI did it, two modern cars. Perhaps I need to drive more. Will try this. I don't care for looks right now and I guess my love affair or P-bug bite has healed. I want to have fun, g-forces, technical stuff, you know. If my wife knew about the 'being seen part', she won't approve of it Older cars especially the 2.4's were considered. After lots of research, I ended up with 'latest I can afford' 911. Currently, my max budget is $60K (preferred to be 40K and below). Hehehe. I am not worthy...because I don't succumb to anything my free spirit wants. Evo X only comes with sucky CVT. Evo and STI will blow the doors off regular stock 996. My driving style is fast when I'm alone. You should feel the explosive acceleration of the Evo. After the lost time in lag, it trys to catch up - whoah! I haven't felt a TT yet, I'm sure that's even better. Some of you understand my point of view and aren't brand fans of any kind. It's what ever gets you interested at the time. I believe in this. Life is too short to be one sided or minded. Family-first for me though, but they understand my midlife crisis, and I don't want to abuse it. Maintenance and insurance costs could impact some funds, especially with my 16yr old son who'll be driving soon and be college bound in a yr. But nothing is more devastating than an exploding engine. Being a perfectionist this is not acceptable at this price range, Prestigious or not...and surely love affair becomes a divorce. I mean with the car. At this minute the options are: 2004 996 C4S, Evo with mods to interior (I can live with the lag), STI without the big wing. Hmmm...what about that upcoming G37S? ...modded of course

I couldn't disagree more. I've driven both the EVO and the STI and I believe they both pale in comparison to the 996. Neither have the steering feel of the Porsche. Both understeer more than the Porsche. The Evo is the sharper handling of the two, but they both feel soft next to the Carrera. Then there's interiors. The evo's is brutal economy car cheap. The STI has slighly more style, but the Impreza roots still shine through. On the outside they look like the economy cars (covered in wings, spoilers, and scoops) that they are. I can see the appeal for a teenager, but they just don't appeal to me.

You are dreaming now. The awd gives them fast 0-60 times (look at their 5-60mph times), but they quickly run out of steam as speeds rise. Take a look at the ring times for the EVO and STI. They clearly lack the power and balance of a 996.

I can see the appeal for a teenager, but they just don't appeal to me. +1

In what world? EVO has 286 hp, STi has 293, 996 has 300 or 320 depending on the year... STi curb weight 3263 Evo curb weight 3263 996 curb weight 2920 996 C4S curb weight 3180 So the STi and Evo have less HP, and weigh more, and you think they will blow the doors off a 996? You are smoking. In a straight line, they will have problems, on a track they will never keep up....The Porsche will have superior braking, handling, balance, better build, etc....The only way you will have a chance in the EVo or STi is to mod it, and even then its a MAYBE...but it will never blow the doors off a 996....My suggestion is buy your Evo and live in bliss thinking you will blow the doors off a 996....just dont run up against one in the canyons or the track, you may get your feelings hurt.

For $40K to $50k you could get a nice early 996 and put on some coil overs, exhaust, seats, wheels...and probably still put on a supercharger. That would be my plan if I had your money and desire for a fast street car. Or, in all honesty, I would step up with a few grand more and get an early 996TT. Could be had for the low to mid $60K's.

If you were a snob you'd think that Porsche's are the only cars to own. I "hear" the Evo's and Sti's are raw as you described, although they are slower on the roadcourse but faster on the street and of course on rally courses.

I wonder how many people who say this car is superior to that car have actually driven both. The STI is a top drawer sports car and for the money a 2nd hand STI is hard to beat. I know several people who own multiple legit sports cars and the STI is currently in the stable or once was. Personally I had more fun in the STI than some non-Turbo/GT Porsches I have driven in the past. But I could also say that bout the Mini CooperS(works), everyone is different. The STI a World Rally Championship car and that speaks for itself. But stateside instead of Petter Solberg your more likely to find a spikey haired kid drag racing up and down the block. I have one these kids in my area and I can hear him a block away. I'm tempted to pull up to him and ask him if he has joined the local autocross clubs because I don't recall seeing his particular STI before. These kids have some nervous energy that needs to be properly harnassed. as far as EVO. Very expensive and their engine track record is not as good as Subaru's. STI and EVO seem interchangeable to me. Both are ugly and have 2 doors too many. Reminds of the corvette, cars I would love to drive 10/10's on a track but would hate to drive home. Fugly.. I wouldn't suggest a C4S if you are looking for a nimble car like your old 911. I found the car to feel heavy and understeery. Excellent exhaust note, although very refined maybe too refined. Instead of the C4S I would spend more time in the CaymanS. Get one with zero options, Rip out the stock seats for some GT3 seats and maybe remove some interior trim, I'm sure the car could lose 400 pounds. But that inexplicably tall 1st gear is still in there. Regardless, This car is very raw/loud like the STI, has ultra sharp handling, more power than 73 RS (albeit nearly 1000 more pounds) and in a sharp color it's a head turner. Not to mention excellent lineage.

I've driven both and I think the EVO would be the one I'd drop my money on if I were so inclined. It handles much better than the STI IMHO (especially with the Bilsteins that come with the MR) and it is nearly as powerful. However, both cars just aren't in the same league with the 996. I agree with you on the Cayman. If he wants something with a little more edge this might be a good choice.

I don't think a sports coupe like a standard 996, BMW M3, or the new Audi TT should be an alternative to a full on rally car like the STI/EVO. Not so sure if its two different leagues as much as completely different class of cars for different purposes. p.s. if its in the budget as just a 'fun' car I'd take a close look at the new Lotus Exige, bare bones speed and handling.

Try a 911 with PSE. It will cure your blues!

Clarkson thinks in real world roads Pcars can't hang with either the EVO or STI: Top Gear

for me, the 911 experience has only been getting better, though i do have a commuter car in a jeep cherokee. i def put more miles ont he 911 than the cherokee. i love the n/a engine sound and the good amount of kick. i think the next upgrade is the 997 GT3. i love the looks and the n/a performance of that thing.

This is the same guy that bought a Ford GT.

Ford GT? Really? I love that car. Jackie Stewart helped in the engineering and it's a Cam Pardo design. Good argument for the best sports car Ford has built since.....err....the ice age? p.s. Jeremy Clarkson bought an American car?? and spent allot of money doing so?? Sounds fishy.

Yeah it sounds fishy. That video answers questions....

To some extent I agree with Clarkson esp when you compare the C2 v. the STi/Evo. Those cars are monsters.

I'll first qualify this by saying that I haven't driven either the STi or EVO. But, I have the impression that after it's all over, they would still be Subaru's or Mitsubishi's. Personally I would look at a GTI if I wanted a relatively low cost pocket-rocket. The first new car I ever bought was an '83 GTI that was serious fun to drive (90 bhp, no power steering, about 3500 rpm at 55 mph). The light and nimble thing again. But, I'm biased in my comments because I'm seriously considering one when the lease is up on the A4.

Actually, what he said was that Porsche's AND Ferrari's could not "hang" with them. I think that's a laugh...... I would take a Carrera 4 over either one in a heartbeat.

I agree with you 100% If I were looking for that kind of pocket rocket I'd take the R32 over either car. The VW isn't as fast but it has one element the Subbie and the Mitsu totally lack..........class.

GTI and class? LOL

This is a huge joke right? Those cars should only be compared to each other. Not a 911, give me a break please.....

Again my input here is...if you want to stand out in the crowd then get a Porsche, if you want to blend in with everyone else then don't. Oh and buy a Yellow or Red Porsche because they are even faster than any other car on the road period...HELL mine looks fast when it is not even moving

One of my best friends has a GTI, maybe one of my least favorite cars to drive. Too much weight on top, clutch feels like mattel, brakes are mushy, and the engine is nothing to write home about. I think this is a car that is 99% popular due to its euro styling. I haven't driven any of the newer ones with the cool front ends. The first R32 had 'sport' seats that were not compatible with a real harness. How could they do that? p.s. Why did somoene mention a pocket rocket? STI and EVO are true racing 'saloon' cars as Clarkson mentions. Do they even race GTI's? anywhere?

OK so get a ' Blue ' STI that will be unique Not sure about the Evo though as they are seen in many colours. I will do a poll tomorrow on the way to the office to see what colour is used the most.

The point went right over your head Ben. If you are looking for class and style in the "pocket rocket" category. The R32 actually has some IMHO. http://cars.about.com/od/volkswagen/...lery/index.htm http://www.caranddriver.com/autoshow...wagen-r32.html Unfortunately the most of the people that associate style and class with EVO and STI are in high school.

Racing Saloons might be going a little far. These street cars have about as much in common with their WRC counterparts and my 996 has with a GT3 cup car.

Sure, because the interior of my 996 is so *incredibly* luxurious. Actually, the below-mentioned GTI probably has a nicer interior than my "normal"-leathered '99. I guess I don't understand your "Subaru or Mitsubishi" quote. There's nothing wrong with the GTI; it's a great car in its own right, but I do think it's not in the same league as the STi or the Evo.

Yes, you are right, they are all comparable to the NISSAN SENTRA. See you in HS tomorrow, Beavis.

Today on my way home for work, in between the mini and the cavalier trying to race me, I played cat and mouse with a black wrx just for this thread. And the least I can say was I wasnt impressed. I was pulling from him at will and intentionally doing so..... I just wanted to ask him if he could carry some groceries in his car for me...... Thats all.......

I have to agree that the looks aren't that good, but the loads of fun more than offset it for me. Yet it may bore me later on. Who knows. Yeah, I'm wondering about the TT, but I read it's heavy...meaning less agile. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maFaWixdJGM Maybe the GT3 is what will satisfy my urge for the right feeling machine, but how much? Then again, I'm probably safe from blowing the engine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrCB-8PNJig I prefer the C4S look or maybe the 40th anniversay is the answer. If I'm paying premium, I better have the good looks and prestige. I'm willing to compromise a bit on the fun factor compared to those pocket rockets. No front wheel drive for me...only rear or AWD. STI or EVO cars aren't in the same league when we talk about overall performance, luxury, quality, prestige, look and driving finese with power. Other than those, fun factor, driving dynamics of EVO and STI are above. Of course that's just my opinion after comparing them. My normal color choice are in this order: white, yellow, then dark blue metallic. 2+2 seater at least to take kids for a short ride around town. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdsvzHvRdW4 I'm sorry my bad...it's been a long while since I saw this. I thought the STI also beat the 996. But the Evo did. I know what you're going to say but just watch this fun clip. But seriously both are probably comparable. I don't mean straight runs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az1E7Ag1I7M&NR=1 Finest steering in the world...per this review. I did feel it better (at least first impression) than any road Porsche I've driven. (924, 2.4 911, 951, 993, 996 C2 & C4S). The steering seem to read your mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG9tw...elated&search= Another Top Gear review...against a Lambo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uExWe...elated&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fv00...elated&search= I'm not attacking your love for Porsche. I just want some of you to understand sometimes just plain fun is all one needs. And then I'll mature later. Enjoy...

We're fully aware of the Evo and STI. We also know about Mustang. And Corvette and Viper. And we're familiar with M3, Elise, and Exige, And many, many others. But we choose to own Porsches. There's a reason for that. Good luck, enjoy whichever car you choose, and drop back by whenever you want. We'll be here.

Man� that is funny:-). I bought my Porsche on a humble, but wouldn�t trade it for the world. I remember watching Risky Business when I was a lot younger and the thrill (Porsche there�s no substitute) just stuck with me. After numerous car, I was finally financially able to buy one. The first year, I remember going through the �what the heck did I get myself into this time:-)(it cost how much to fix that!), yet as I met more Porsche owners and begin to learn more about my car (DIY � and trust me, I am no mechanic), I begin to truly understand the whole Porsche phenomena. I�ve grown not only to enjoy driving it, but appreciating it as well.

Then you just don't get it. Which is surprising considering you say you have a '99 996. As far as the GTI not being in the same league as the STi or EVO, you're probably right. All of the comparisons being made here are apples and oranges. The point is every car that has been mentioned here is valid on some level, for some purpose. Be careful of what generation GTI you are comparing to. Pretty much every generation between the very first and the current one were watered down crap. I'm biased but I believe your 996 has a lot more in common with a Cup car than these "racing saloons" and their WRC counterparts.

Maybe you have never been interested in Porsche cars. Maybe You just came here to bash them. Sorry if I judge you wrong, but saying that the 996 TT isn't agile or the GT3 engine blows... And by now you shouldn't give any credits to youtube videos. There is all sort of things available at youtube - from a Fiat 500 faster than a 911 to pigs flying. And Clarkson? haha don't make me laugh...when I grow up I wanna have a Ford and a Jaguar....ha and that light racing cars named...uh...Aston Martin?

Your reliance on Best Motoring video's for reliable car information is unfortunate. I imagine you think WWF wrestling matches are real too. What kind of car do you drive now?

If you work out what drugs you on tell me, ill avoid them Porkers offer more than in a 1 hour test drive..... which ever model you own. specially 9 one one)

+1

u dont' get class from driving a VW or subaru or mitsu or porsche or whatever bud to say that the R32 or whatever gets u more class than an STI or Evo is complete hair splitting, get a grip on reality pls comment. it's more the driver than what the public chooses to perceive cuz honestly the public doesn't give a flying F who u are unless you are a celebrity of some type.

Maybe you should change your name to 911M3WRXSTIGTINOTWORTHYFORANYOFTHEM.COM......

I need a translation here. I am not sure if this is ebonics or some other form of slang, but I am not at all sure what you are trying to say. If you believe that the styling of the EVO or STI is in the same universe as a 996 I totally disagree. If you think the styling of the EVO/STI is up to the same level as the R32, I disagree. If you read from my post that I give any thought to what you or the "public" thinks I should drive you are very mistaken. I'm not 100% sure, but looking at your avatar I have the feeling that your sense of style and mine are different (not an insult). That perhaps there are things out there that I would consider "classy" that you would disagree with (and vice versa). Trust me, I am absolutely "ok" with that.

and thank goodness for that my good friend lol yea based on a small little internet pic on an online automotive forum specifically dedicated to porsches, you can base a lot of things whether it be factual or totally off the mark. that's part of the game... dog. but i can almost guarantee you my sense of style is much more modern and straight sexy than yours. LOLOL j/k j/k not that anyone here cares on internet land. and i'm not talking about styling or whatever.. my point is, the VW, the subie, the mitsu... none of it buys you class or style by its looks or performance alone. a car doesn't do **** until u reacg a certain more qualitative than quantitative threshold and i'm certainly experiencing it in the 911 the way that mine looks and the way that the music bumps from its crappy stock stereo system. they're all great cars and i respect them for what they have to offer. i don't judge a guy cuz he chooses to roll an STi over the R32. it's the same **** to me and to the public. they're all fast cars that's reliable and can give a 911 a run for its money.

Uhhhhh....it's got a stereo system? PSE is all the tunes I need. Ray S--My brutha, I don't think there's anyway to get through to him. But thank you for trying. cuz i get lol when he rolls large on our a$$ .

yo ben, even the m3 beats the sti!!!! all cars suck except for mine..........

I'll tell you what I DO get--I own a black 996, just like you, but mine didn't come with the optional inflatable head option. It's a bunch of metal and plastic and glass that happens to be assembled in a manner that's pleasing to its owners, and I enjoy learning new tricks and techniques to all my toys. Why did I purchase a 996 C4? <shrug> To be honest, I needed a 4-seat (not 4-door) AWD car with sporting aspirations, and it turns out the list was rather short. I'm actually really happy with the car overall, but... This isn't a religion to me--I'm not too proud to ignore a few flaws of the car. The lightweight nose (even with the extra weight of the C4) bobs too much for my tastes on even slightly bumpy corners. Also, the car clearly handles well in spite of the rear-mounted engine, not because of the rear-mounted engine. And, like I said, the 996 interior quality leaves much to be desired, from the acres of plastic on the dash to the side airbags that clearly look like an afterthought. I'd have loved the full leather package, but it's priced in the stratosphere, like the rest of Porsche's options. Again, I enjoy the car as much as the next guy, but I'm not here to be a 996 fanboy; I'm here to discuss all aspects of 996 ownership, including the pros AND cons. I'll admit to being somewhat frustrated at times by the people that insist I'm not "getting" something...something they can never seem to quantify. I guess I'm a more logical person than some. I do like the level of information here, so I'm sticking around either way, but it seems senseless to me to pretend that cars that clearly compete with the 996 in the important (read: performance) areas don't because they carry a badge from a less snobbish car.

After selling Subarus and driving tons of stock and modified STIs I can tell you that the Porsche is way more Porsche like than any sti. The Porsche is light, and nimble, while the STI is heavy, and the steering lacks feel. The STI is a great car for the price, but it doesn't come close to a 996. If you miss the rawness, buy an SC.

tooloud10--Enjoy your car in good health. Sorry to ruffle feathers. For me, the car is more than the sum of "a bunch of metal and plastic and glass that happens to be assembled in a manner that's pleasing to its owners". For a lot of us, there are things we can't quantify. There are intangible qualities that draw us to 911's and Porsches in general. This could be said about any of the cars mentioned in this thread. It's in the eye of the beholder. Of course the car is not perfect, there's no such thing. I own a 911 because I love cars, it's a car I've lusted after for 20+ years, it has 40+ years of racing heratige, etc., etc. The bottom line is, it's a 911. That's really all that has to be said. But, I'll say it again, it's a 911. (I think we're making each other's points here. Both of which are equally vaild.)

I know the cure. Sell your car. I sold my second of two 911s a year ago because I thought I was tired of it. It wasn't 2 months and I was sick. Found my 966 last month and all is well again....

Somebody should have just told this joker on post number 2, yes you're right. Enjoy your STI and NEVER see you later at the Mitsu Forum......

911m3 ... You mentioned you like the rawness of your 2.4 Good for you. A new 911 (except perhaps a GT3), will never feel as raw or light (gee, 996=3000lb, 911 2.4 = 2350-2400 lbs). I am going thru a similar plight. I love Porsches, or should I say, I love aircooled Porsches.. ok, I would admit to loving "dry sump" Porsches too. I really liked the lightness, rawness, crispness (whatever) of my 914 and 911SC. I bought a Boxster thinking it would be a modern 914. It is a fantastic "car", but not a real "Porsche" in my mind. My point is a 996 will never be what you want, so look for something different! If it is rawness, somewhat uniqueness, modern conveniences like AC, Heat, ABS then I encourage you to look at the 964. Priced between 20K and 40K (for an RSA) they will have the rawness you appreciate but still be a Porsche, as you like them.

Finally somebody who is chill and level-headed about their toy a.k.a. 911! I think it's quite entertaining to witness the level of snobbery in this forum from some of the owners, though I take it lightly since I know that I act a bit more extreme via the online persona than in person, though fundamentally I'm pretty close to it (brusque, candid, blunt). I respect and appreciate all types of cars. I love RRs on 24s. I like the Japanese rockets for their reliability and healthy aftermarket ecosystem. I like big-body German sedans including the new Lexus LS from the other side of the world. I love Aston Martins, especially the upcoming DB-S, and would love to have a Murcielago with deep dish 20s. I absolutely love the 911 of all years. They make me stare. I'm excited for the Audi R8 for raising the styling/performance combo bar. I do not at all look down on the Subaru, Mitsu, Honda, Toyota, VW, Audi, BMW especially if they're rolling the souped up factory versions. They're fast. They're capable and all offer a unique driving experience. Would I ever buy one of them? Probably not as I was always a guy who appreciated the holistic automotive driving/ownership experience and I fully admit that I'm not too proud to say that I take full advantage of the vaunted PORSCHE badge and like being able to tell chicks and dudes alike that "I drive a 911" should they ask. I enjoy the compliments. I enjoy the hater stares. I enjoy initiating the what up wave at other Porsche drivers on the road even if they're in... gasp... Boxsters. I think many of you can understand this even if you don't care to understand me. Let down your guard, fellas. Respect and appreciate the diff cars for what they offer. You don't have to necessarily respect and appreciate the human behind the wheel, however.

Ben, I typically don't agree with your comments (or maybe the way you deliver them) but this time I have to say I agree with you just about 100%. Personally, I have respect for the other cars you mentioned; they're great performers. However, they're just not my style. And, yes, sometimes the drivers of these cars leave a bit to be desired with their on-road etiquette.

I think bad driving doesn't discriminate by car make

Well, yes and no. The less expensive hotrods like the EVO's and STi's, etc, are more affordable to the younger crowd and therefore tend to be the weapon of choice for them. As we all know, the younger guys up to about age 30ish tend to drive a bit more aggressively and recklessly than the older guys (who, themselves were almost certainly just like the younger guys at the same age. I know I was.). However, I certainly agree that I've come across my fair share of the reckless types who happen to drive the more expensive cars and who also should know better at their age. They just seem far less common than the younger guys in their hotrods.

Well, I do know this. I bought my wife a 2003 G-35 so I could get the total rights to my 996 back. At the risk of heiricy, I'll tell you...that's one FINE automobile! I'll stick w/my 996, but THAT is a nice car!!!

so it's more a function of the age of the driver than the car itself. i agree. the car has nothing to do with it. it's all driver habits, hormones, insecurities. and i'd say it's the dudes with the Ford F-150s etc who think they drive hot rods and think they can run over anything ont he road. totally stupid. yea good luck with gettin insured bud. i also love how they go WOT ... good luck paying for your gas too.

humm...Feeling melancholic today? I wish I could say what you said. But everyday that I get older I turn to be more fundamentalist (maybe it's a sign of the current times). I don't respect and appreciate all types of cars. I hate them all. I'm a prostitute but for cars my heart only have space for one love.

Ben, you're speaking my language...I'm glad to see that there are members around here that share my enthusiasm for cars past the "I own a 996 and it's the best car ever" attitude. Would you believe that I also own a Miata? And that I actually ENJOY it? I was going to sell it when I got the 996 but can't bear to part with it yet--it's really a very capable car that doesn't pretend to be anything it's not. It's an extremely forgiving RWD vehicle with actual 50/50 weight balance (the 911 could learn a thing or two from it) that loves to be thrown around corners at 10/10ths. Anyway, I mention the Miata because I've noticed that there are two kinds of people in these forums--"Porsche" guys and "car" guys. The Porsche guys would just sneer at something like a Miata. The car guys would want to take a turn behind the wheel, even though it's not as fast as a 996 and the engine is in the wrong (right?) place. I think we're "car" guys, and I'm always glad to run into a car guy.

I'm a "car" guy and appreciate and admire just about all high performance cars. I'd certainly like to drive them all. However, with that said, ever since my Dad started telling me about Porsche 911's from about 1970 onward and actually bought one in '71, I've been a huge fan of the cars - even with their idiosyncrasies, and even though they've rarely been the best in any given performance area. They've always been a very complete overall package and I've always been enthralled with them. Hey, most everyone's got a favorite. Mine happens to be Porsche. No apologies.

What is a Miata?

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Tooloud10, I think you nailed it. Sorry for steering this place up. I just wanted to express what I discovered I felt about the differences among those cars...to I thought car enthusiasts, a.k.a 'car guys', I guess there are a few 'brand guys' that I hurt their ego. Seriously though, I love Porsches especially those hand made ones But I do love all kinds of highly engineered performance cars. Only a few muscle cars for me though. I think big displacement is cheating. --- zicoramone, you got me wrong. When I got my first 911, I'd work on it even if I had a fever. Porsche's changed a lot and we know why. But like I said I didn't expect it to be that drastic. I said TTs are heavy which makes it less agile than its 996 brethren. I didn't say it isn't agile. I also meant GT3 is safe from blowing an engine. I heard the motor on it and TT aren't similar as the 996 which we all have heard had a few with grenading engines. I think GT3 is what will really give me the feeling I'm looking for, but this is way beyond budget. --- I just don't listen to reviewers. I try them myself whenever I can. And so far the results are similar to theirs. So I trust what they say, beside the fact that is their job. More credible than most of us, I'd say. --- Ray S, that video is real. But not the proof you want to see, I know. I don't watch stupid WWF, only UFC, and other martial arts stuff. It'll be funny if any of you actually watch WWF up to now. --- michael.s.under, you're under your wife? Or you like it under? hehehe. Well you said I'm a joker. I don't give a sh!+ about worthy BS. I just want to have fun! --- racer, I'm still open from a 2.4, 88-89, 964, 993 and 996. But the older the more issues to watch out for. So, I'm eyeing the latest I can afford. Question is, will I lower my expectation and grow to love it? I think I'll take a little break before I go back and contemplate on it again. Maybe I'll have a different point of view then. Of course more test drives as I can.

Best Motoring video's are staged.....I'm sorry you didn't know that. BTW, Santa Clause and the Tooth fairy are also not real...

People who are not mechanics or engineers will not see these cars for what they (Porsches) really are. If you dont understand the mechanics of the car, all you see is sheetmetal and a design. I hated the way 911's looked until I read a book on Porsche. Porsche spent more time on engineering a 944 than lets say, Chevrolet spent time on engineering the latest Z06 (which I watched the entire video of the engineering of the car). I will not go into details of how the engineers from Porsche eliminated the vibration of a large displacement 4-cylinder but it was quite impresssive and pushed me to the German side. I am a "car" guy but I know, and you can call me snobby about it, that Porsche is the greatest brand in cars out there for the money.

Group hug, anyone?

hehehe. Ok. I'm in. I think I need one.

lol

911m3, just giving you **** (thats how you spell it) too easy to argue, good luck with your search!

At first I thought that the stereotype idea of �Car guys vs. brand guys� was very silly. But on second thought I think that it has some logic. In fact, the more I chew it the more I agree with it. At some point in my life (some years back) I was a car guy. I even loved Ferrari's because I have work for them. But now, I don't have any doubt that I am not a car guy anymore. Yep. I am for sure a Porsche guy. That�s all.

There's also straight-line guys vs. twisty guys.

I enjoy initiating the what up wave at other Porsche drivers on the road even if they're in... gasp... Boxsters. Not again......a quick stab at Boxster owners!!! For the record I test drove many 996s, coz I wanted a 911 and no other car........but believe it or not they did not do it for me. My old 944 felt more like a sports car, the 996 felt like a Lexus to me. Reluctantly drove a Boxster S and bammm.....the sports car feeling was there. Please don't attack me for my comments, i just got fed up with the Boxster hit in his thread. If all you want to do is say "I've got a 911" buy a toy one!!! Boxsters are great cars especially the "S".

I have an 02 C4S and love it. I've also have a 2005 Audi S4, I previously owned an 03 M3, 3 vettes, including a Z06, a Mini Cooper S, a couple of Mustang Gt's etc. They were all great cars, but the C4S, while not the fastest gives the best driving experience (steering feel, brakes, grip) bar none, not to mention the awesome looks of the car. Regarding the EVO and STI, I've driven both, the EVO will blow you away compared to the STI. If you are looking to buy one of those now, I would wait intil the fall with the EVO X comes out. Glenn

I'm an engineer, that's why I love the air cooled flat six design. Remember Toyota design team were consulted initially when they started water cooling the flat six. Maybe they should have gone to Subaru who've been doing water-cooling flat-4s and now flat-6s as well. If you really like engineering side of design, you'd like the wankel rotary even more. Problem is the apex seal wears out too fast. It's inherent of that design but materials are improving. You get the smoothest, free high revving effectively six-cylinder performance out of a very compact engine. Gas mileage is another issue. Hmm...I guess they can't easily control intake and exhaust opening, but I have an idea. Need to revisit this technology. I also considered RX8s. In my younger years, I wasn't trilled about the 911s. My dad wasn't a car guy. More like a boat/ship guy - Navy. Seals that is...kidding. But one day, as my friends and I were walking out of an auto show, a Porsche book author just out of the blues asked me if I was a Porsche man. I said 'No'...I was just a dumb teenager. Hehehe. He then proceeded to sign his book and gave it to me. Still have it in the storage somewhere. When I took it home, I started reading about Porsches 911's. I was amazed by the design and engineering, I bought my 2.4 5 years later. Kept it for almost 20 yrs. Loved that car, but had to scrounge up money for a nice home some yrs back, so all toys with value had to go. That balance-shaft was originally designed by Mitsubishi and Porsche had to acquire a license for its usage on their 944. The 968, eliminated it by balancing I believe most internal components which moved the higher vibration harmonics outside of the RPM operating range. VW, Porsche, Subaru and Corvair flat designs are better because they're almost vibration free. A bit less than a straight six. Of course there's more to it than just basic design.

Love the Wankel rotary, I have stared at animated illustrations on RX-7 websites in the past just blown away by the design when I discovered them. Of course, I saw my friends '92 RX-7 go through its ill-fated rotor seal design flaw and blow smoke from the exhaust at only 60k miles. What a shame you can come up with a genius design but cant find a material to withstand the load. Heard the RX-8's are going through the same fate. Guess I have to give the Japanese some rightly deserved credit for Engineering, the 944's Engineering was impressive to me knowing what little innovation American cars brought to the table. Anyways, my comment and point was to say that some who discredit a Porsche only does so by looks alone, not the engineering behind it. The looks of the cars have followed suit.

Care to elaborate Ben?

I love the design too. I just wish they could fix the seal problem and improve the horrible fuel consumption.

You don't need to ask that...... Ben's about the bling. He doesn't care about that other stuff... The badge Ben??? Say it isn't so.....

Ben may have stated things many wouldn't admit. I have been a Porschephile ever since I was too young to remember. Posters, model cars, all I could read... you get the idea. And for me it was the 911 or nothing... I worked hard to realize my dream. But don't get me wrong, the car also stands for a level of success that I wear like a badge. You will certainly be percieved (for better or worse) much differently pulling up to a restaurant in a 911 cab than a 1979 orange Vega. Sure I care about performance but honestly, aren't there much cheaper cars you can track faster than a 911?

From what I understand, Porshe did a lot of the engineering on the STI flat four. They do a lot of engineering consulting work - not something discussed on this board a lot. The Harley V-Rod is another example of a Porsche design. SINCE you guys asked me - I'll opine that I'm stuck driving Porsches for the rest of my life. As has been stated (by Hurley Haywood or something) the 911 does everything well, but no one thing better than any other car. Sure would like a STI though. Maybe black or even WRB. Lose the boy racer wing, get some flat black wheels, handsome car IMO. PLenty fast too.

There are cheaper cars that are quicker...but they don't drive as nice!

I suspect this thread is going to end as another Z06 thread

Very interesting read! Whoever brought up the 'car guy / brand guy' topic absolutely nailed it on the head. I'm a car guy who just happens to have owned a couple of Porsches and have honestly never understood the truly fierce brand loyalty displayed by some (and it's not just Porsche, same can be said for Chevy/Ford, Honda, Toyota, whatever). I had specific desires in a car which the 996 filled best for me (I actually enjoy it a LOT more now than I did the first few years I owned it!) but I'm just astonished that there are so many other truly amazing, affordable cars out there. Hell, I personally like vanilla gelato but some other varieties are also a nice change from time to time. People buy cars for all manner of different reasons, and ALL cars have strengths and weaknesses. I never saw the need to look down at somebody because of the car he/she drove. And I include "she" since there's girl with a WRX STI that I see at least twice a week on the morning commute, everytime I see it I always think she made a pretty cool car selection. If you think they're just "jap crap" then take 5 minutes to go to the dealer and grab the stock Subaru steering wheel, you'll be sorely disappointed in the default wheel from Porsche...absolutely no comparison. Porsches aren't made from pixie dust and moonbeams, they're a mass produced piece of equipment made using manufacturing techniques that are virtually indistinguishable from those of dozens of other marques. (Otherwise there wouldn't be threads asking why the coolant expansion tank is piddling its contents all over the drivers side exhaust pipe! I mean crap.....my 1977 924 Martini & Rossi edition did the same thing, c'mon you've had 20 years to use a different polymer or molding process! lol) The "brand" bias always makes me laugh too because when I was riding Yamaha sportbikes in my younger days I always gave a wave to the Harley riders and not *once* did they ever wave back. Hilarious and utterly ridiculous at the same time! Lol I just never saw a reason to define myself or anyone else by the car they choose to drive. -K

Frankly, it seems that there are few 'bad' (poorly made) cars any longer (no more Yugo's, Vegas....). Just decide which flavor you like the best and recognize that after a few years, you might want to try something different. Although I've owned a '65 356 SC, a '69 911S, a '96 993 and now an '03 996 -- I've also owned 2 Audis, several VW bugs, a '67 275 GTS Ferrari, a '59 MGA, a '67 Fiat Dino with the Ferrari Formula II engine, a '65 Austin Healy MKIII, a Formula Ford, SUV's, pickups.... uh, the list really does go on. I do keep coming back to Porsches because the ones I have owned were of high quality and had a driving experience that is quite different from the others. It doesn't mean the others are worse. And your owning anything else isn't a challenge to my choices over the years. Crap--it's Entertainment! At some level, who gives a rip what you drive. Just enjoy what you drive until you want something else. All brand loyalty and brand conflict does is make money for big companies. It's your money....spend it the way you want to.

So please, stand up. Who's a car guy and who's a Porsche guy? I'm a Porsche guy.

I'm a car guy - that's settld on Porsche as "home base"

I'm a car guy that doesn't see anything out there better than a Porsche. Different, yes. Enjoyable, yes. But Porsche has an elegant design, excellent execution and relative economy of ownership.

wtf - this is more a stab at snobby 911 drivers. i acknowledge the boxster guys as well is my point. it's a porsche and it drives fantastic. Cayenne, though, no way.

I'm a car guy for sure. I love my 911, but would I prefer the more raw feel and sound and aggression and prestige of a Ferrari Challenge Stradale as compared to say the top dog 911s? No doubt in my mind I want the Forza Ferrari over any 911. But, again, before I ruffle any P-car fan boys here, I still do love and appreciate my porky, n/a 911. Truly blessed.

I would say that Im a car guy, but am a fanatic of the car I own at any given time. Which is strictly limited by price bracket. If I wasn't a brand guy at all, I wouldn't be here daily talking to you guys about my Porsche. And after owning I plan on always owning a Porsche, but thats not to say that while financials continue to increase I may be another car and brand guy for say a Ferrari or Lambo, all while being a P Car fan boy all the same. I am not the type to say, F everything else but mine. My brother rolls a pristine and ridiculously fast z06 and my brother in law has the cleanest 71 chevelle ive ever seen, and both give me the chills when driving in them....

That is my point with a lot of Porsche owners, it is about the image, not the drive experience and engineering. I drive a Porsche because I realized its' superiority over other makes, the name behind it is just a bonus.

I'm more a Porsche guy but would own many different cars if I had the means.

superiority? lol which has a lot to do with the badge. too many generalizations here and a really silly thing to try to discuss and "prove a point" or debate as if there really is any hard evidence to back-up your statements. it's OK to admit you love the badge and you love the steering feel and sound and look. it's a holistic approach to things just like many other things in life. to take away the badge is something that will nefver happen and will always count. you buy into the history. the "pedigree". the lineage all the way back to Piech. it's an intrinsic part of this package this badge thing. u can't cut it out of your mind and place it in a box. neither can the driving public. it's not reality so embrace the badge love while you're blasting down whatever roads enjoying the drive. am i a porsche guy? sure. i bought one. was i a honda guy? yes and i had a great time with it. could i become a ferrari guy or pagani guy or bentley guy or aston guy or toyota guy or hyundai guy? no doubt! so long as they made a car that i would want to own. cars are so well made now. they all offer up something unique that i can appreciate.

I'm not really a car guy. i could care less about big sedan Mercs, BMW and Lexus. I will never own an SUV or crossbird, cross over or whatever they are calling it. and the majority of sports cars are not appealing to me, too heavy, not nimble enough and very sterile in design. But I am a sports car guy. I realize that there are maybe less than a dozen 'true' sports cars (under $100K) made today. So I appreciate the few that pass muster. I also find, just in my personal experience, that a majority of Porsche drivers are not really sports car guys. Just guys who can afford them. Its like mountain bikes 80% never see a trail. I wonder how many Porsches ever see an Autocross or DE. Most are just garage queens, whose owners buy to impress others. (Putting on flame retardent suit now) small sub $100K list, in no order: (have driven many more not on this list) M3 STI EVO BoxsterS CarreraS CaymanS MazdaSpeed Miata Elise Mini CooperS(works) Corvette Audi S4 S2000

If you are quoting me, reread my post. If Kia had accomplished as much as Porsche and the Kia drove and handled like a Porsche, guess what? I would own one. I said it once before, I didnt like how ANY Porsche looked. I did not like the way my car looked when I bought it, I bought it on technology and the way it drove. The looks grew on me. Of course I believe Ferrari makes the most beautiful cars ever, but they are not as good as a Porsche in a lot of areas.

Ok cool - I am enamored with how a Porsche 911 looks either. It's a toad. An F430 is an outright better, more fun, more involving drive than any 911 to date, IMO. It flat out looks better, too... but then I'm not enamored with the F430's looks either.

<shrug> It's a car that weighs almost a thousand pounds less than your 911. If you need more information than that, you're not a car guy, you're a Porsche guy.

The used ones, sure. The new ones? I'm not sure your statement can be true--they're the highest profit margin cars available, or so I've read.

That's an interesting statement, as I've found just as many guys that will swear that the STi will blow you away as compared to the Evo. Just emphasizes my point, I guess.

The RX-8 was actually the only other car I considered purchasing before I bought my 996. It lost out because of the winter driving I do and because of the limited reliability offered by the Wankel for the reason you suggest. ...which brings up another point for the snobs: my 996 enters the same service bay doors as the RX-8...and the Subarus...and even the Pontiacs. It's hard to be a snob when a Grand Am passes the overhead service door ahead of your P-car.

Why I work on mine myself......

+1 This is what I ran out of breath trying to say!

Exactly!

For me it comes down to the fact that when I sit my *** down in the seat, crank the car up, pull out of the driveway, and start down the street, I get a very huge grin on my face. If a car does that for you (no matter what make or model), then it's just validated itself. If it doesn't and that matters to you, go get one that does. If no car does that for you, then a car is strictly utility. Go buy the most affordable, safest, reliable, and economical vehicle that will get you from point A to point B. I freely admit I have drunk the Porsche Kool-Aid. And it tastes pretty damned good to me.