C2 or C4? - A snowboarder's dilemna

I just recently decided to buy a 911. I intend to use the 911 for daily driving as wall as DE/autocross/track. I live in NYC. In the winter, my favorite hobby is snowboarding, so my original plan was to buy a C4, put a roof rack on it, and drive to the mountains in my 911. Surely that would be the pinnacle of awesomeness. However, I've been doubting this plan lately. I'm worried that if I buy a C4, the roof rack will look ugly, track days and autocrossing won't be as much fun, and the AWD drivetrain loss and extra weight will make me cry inside. Plus, I can get a C2 for less $$$, and there are many more cars to choose from. There aren't many C4 coupe manuals out there apparently. What do you guys think? Am I mixing up my dreams? Should I use my current FWD car to get to the mountains in the winter, and buy a C2 for tracking and general daily driving enjoyment when its not snowing or icy? Or is the C4 some kind of wunderkind that can track as good as a C2 in the summer, as well as slay the icy mountain roads in the winter? -Pete

I don't think you would notice any real difference in weight. If you plan on driving all year....and snow...C4 is the way to go... oh...AND WELCOME ABOARD! I'm just North of you. J

+1 on the C4. If you're taking it up to the Catskills or VT in the winter, it's the only way to go. My C4S was my 1st P-car, so I don't notice any weight difference.

If you want to autocross, you're going to be less competitive in a C4, there's no doubt. If keeping your current FWD car for the mountains is an option, as you say, you've answered your own question. To me, this might be a different discussion without the autocross, and you might not "notice" the extra weight. But in the cones you would, and I think that I'd probably prefer the power all going to the back wheels, there, too. My .02.

Not so say it can't be done but the mountains I am thinking about I would leave the C4 behind and take the AWD/FWD. Snow storms/traitorous weather can suddenly sneak up on one (been there, I never underestimate being in the "mountains") I like clearance and piece of mind, just in case... Lots of p-car freaks drive their C2 throughout the winter with a set of good snow tires w/no issues. For me is simple. I throw the 4runners at the mountains/bad weather. The 996 to the curves Otherwise why even bother owning a truck/SUV or etc...

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The Stig says no...

I drive my C2 all winter long in Chicago (with snow tires). I've driven it in over well over a foot of snow with no issues (other than the front starts to turn into a plow if it gets really deep). The rear engine configuration really offers great traction, so while awd could obviously offer some benefits, it is not at all necessary. As far as the track goes RWD (on a dry track) has a lot of advantages. Check out the video below http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkAi41dJFGk Good luck with your choice.

The C4 is the way to go, I drive mine year round, but winter tires are critical. I have Dunlop Wintersports on an extra set of wheels. Last February I was caught in a blizzard in Wisconsin, and I was passing everything on the road, including the SUV's. As for the track, many people prefer the C2 for the feel of the 2WD, and for the ligher weight. But if you do a search of the various sites and some additional research I think you will find the C4's consistently lap tracks faster than C2's. It takes more skill to drive a C2 as fast as a C4.

Pete, I'm in Monroe NY and I've had 2001 C4 and my C4S... with winter tires they are fantastic in the snow! Rob

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Just for clarity, my comment referred specifically to autocross. On a track, I wouldn't argue that the C4 lets most drivers go faster. But I wasn't talking about the track.

I live in orange county, NY, close to Rob from Monroe above. I actually thought of also getting a C4, but since in NY there are some decent snow falls, I figured is was much better to get a C2 Cab for the summer, and I have a X3 for the winter. The ground clearance is really the thing for me, and I really beat on the X3. Think about getting a 4x4 for the winters.

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Bruce, see post #6 in this thread...in Top Gear's test, the (997) C4 is indeed slightly faster than the C2 on an indoor autocross track.

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Did you watch the video? Half a second advantage to the C4 on a 1km course, where the surface might not have been exactly hot asphalt. And the driver described the C4 as feeling "heavier and more ponderous" . Hardly a slam dunk and, by the standards of Rennlist, where even dyno charts and 'ring times aren't sacred, hardly conclusive. To be clear, I think the C4 is going to allow most drivers to go faster at track speeds. For the cones, I'd still choose the C2. And, with me driving both cars, I think I'd be faster in the C2 than the C4. My opinion. YMMV. And for day to day use, "heavier and more ponderous" doesn't exactly describe the reason I bought a Porsche.

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I didn't say it was a slam dunk, just that it was faster.

I'll be picking up a good set of winters and taking the C2 to the mountains next season. Although the resorts around here aren't too far off the beaten path.

Here's why I don't drive the Porsche to ski country. This was my driveway at our country house a couple of months back...

I have Blizzaks on my daily driver C2 during the winter (actually, I just took them off this weekend - end of the snowboard season for me). They are great for going to our local ski resorts here in the Seattle area. I also carry a pair of Spyder spikes for when chains are required. The plowing is the only issue if the snow gets too thick for either the C2 or C4, but I have never had any problems. I have been gathering track parts for my car i.e. Motons, GT3 seat, etc., although I'm now thinking of getting a dedicated race car. Nonetheless, if I can only have one car for everything (daily driver, track car, "utility/practical" vehicle), the 911 would be it!

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That's just not true. In fact, the primary reason you don't see more C4's in Club Racing is that they are just not as quick on a dry track. When it comes to racing weight is huge. The awd system adds over 130 pounds to a C2. The weight alone is a big deal, but you also need to factor in additional driveline drag (a C4 puts less hp to the wheels). Absolutely, no question the awd system provides benefits in inclement conditions. However you can't stuff extra weight in cars for "free", there are also downsides. Let's be honest about the pluses and minuses.

The C4 tracks in the dry just as well as the C2. Each have their own advantages. It all depends on the track and how tight the course is. For driving it in the winter the C4 with snows on is very stable. Ride height is the main issue. The C2 with the engine over the rear wheels is in my opinion a better winter car then a fwd car.

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Although in the dry, as little as 5% of the torque is going to the front wheels, so what you have is a heavier, more complicated 2WD car in that particular situation. We have to remember that the amount of torque the front wheels get is variable depending on things like wheelspin and lateral loading. If your driving includes those kinds of conditions, it's worth the weight and complexity. If they don't it isn't. And I agree with your last comment... after my first winter of driving my C2, I'm astonished by what it can do with good snow tires. There's no question it breaks traction more easily, but after all I'd heard about Porsches, I was flat amazed at how easy and predictable it was to collect it back up again if you were sloppy.

my ideal 911 would be a 996/7 c2 with the widebody. i took vanity over the more lively feel of the rwd variant and always will until porsche makes one of the above. awd has crazy grip. crazy.

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There's no question, it's a head-turner. A wide-body C2S would be bad-azz... The guys who picked the C4S for its charisma and presence totally get a pass from me.

Thanks for the comments guys. I guess I am still leaning towards a C4, but I think I'll jump on a beautiful C2 if one shows up. It's harder than I thought to find a nice C4 Manual coupe. There are too many automatic convertibles out there! If I end up with a C2 I doubt I will regret it, considering that many of you have mentioned that a C2 + winter tires is not a deathwish. I wish there was a dedicated For Sale forum on here.

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There is.... https://rennlist.com/forums/for-sale-ads-member-to-member-fs-wtb-free-136/ But you need to be a member to view it.....

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Tell me about it. I've been looking for 6sp C4 convertibles for months. There are just so damn many tiptronic ones. A Porsche dealer told me the 996s (I can' remember if he was referring to just the convertibles) were ordered about 60% Tip in America. I'm currently seriously looking at a C2, but now I'm wondering if PSM should be a deal breaker.

I just traded my X3 against a 328i wagon with RWD although I'll probably export the car to Europe and plan to drive it in the Alps. AWD makes all cars not only heavier, it makes them consume more gas year round and less fun to drive. I've to admit that I didn't test drive a C2 against a C4 as I never intended to get an AWD sports car but I drove a lot BMWs with RWD vs. AWD and the AWD cars just don't feel as good as the RWD cars. The main thing in winter is to have good tires and not AWD. I've been much better off on snowy roads with my RWD BMWs with winter tires than with my AWD X3 with all season tires. I'd say tires make 70% and AWD 30% on snow. Go with the C2! IMO it's not worth to carry AWD around for 365 days a year just to have a slight advantage on 10-20 days. Just my 2 cents.

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Invest time and money in some track days and you'll not need PSM. It should not be a deal breaker! 15 years ago nobody talked about traction control or PSM so why is it so important today? Learn to drive, so you'll see less is more! This reminds me on a statement of Walter Roehrl when the first Audi TTs crashed as they didn't have the rear spoiler: "20 years back you were called an idiot when you crashed your car as you were driving too fast. Today people blame the manufacturer if they crash for not building or equipping the car right."

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Sure, and a few decades before that, nobody talked about air bags or ABS brakes or radial tires or transmissions with less than five gears...doesn't mean I have any desire to go back...

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Is it worth it?

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I think so. This place is great and the price is very small (around $17.00). Personally, I'd have more confidence buying a part or car from a fellow R-lister than from someplace like e-bay. (However, I won't mislead you there are not any 996's on the classifieds right now). Hell, the "I'd Hit it" Thread (in Off-topic) alone is worth $17.00/year in my book.

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+1. Actually, the whole OT board is worth the price. I occasionally go in there just to drop a bomb and watch my rabid fellow rennlisters go at it . Plus, you can post a "looking to buy" thread, and you'll get a whole bunch of hits and assistance. People will be more inclined to go out of their way if you are "part of the club", if you know what I mean. It's human nature. As for your original question, RWD or AWD 911. Although the C2 with snows is great in the snow, the C4 will be better. On that no one can argue against. OTOH, I would rather get a beater AWD like a used Honda/Toyota/etc for winter wonderland driving due to the higher clearance, and leave the 911 for the fun clear road driving. And, don't anyone tell you different. The AWD 911 is STILL better than the RWD 911 even in the dry. Of course, I am completely and totally unbiased on that last statement . As to PSM. Even if you have a beater AWD, I have a feeling you won't be able to resist taking that 911 up to the mountains occasionaly anyway. So, PSM in that instance, is an absolute MUST HAVE .

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I completely agree with the advice that if you can swing it at all, consider getting a nice 4x4 truck for those trips v. trying to take a sports car up in the snow. You're trashing your nice 911 and no matter what you do, it'll show wear. I happen to love my XJ Cherokee. It's actually quite fun to drive cuz you actually think differently. Curbs. Bumps. Mud. Snow. Iced roads. Parallel parking downtown. No sweat.

I just wanted to chime in about getting a beater for snowboarding trips. I'm not yet a porsche owner (hope to be within the next 2 years) but i am a city dweller (in Montreal) and an avid rider who takes his lowered BMW coupe up to the mountains every weekend. If I had the space for it, I would snap up a used Cherokee, Outback, or similar in a heartbeat, and I would implore you to do the same. Yes, RWD w/snow tires can get you moving, but it's the lack of ground clearance that will have you cursing as you drive your beautiful porsche over unforgiving chunks of ice and hardened snow. Whichever drivetrain you choose, if at all possible, get a beater!

Re: the C2 vs. C4 for track or autox. I don't know the right answer, but honestly, are any of us good enough drovers to really be able to tell the difference? I know I'm not and I've been DE'ing for 6+ years. A C2 or a C4 are totally awesome cars on the track, you can't go wrong with either one.

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In this case, it's most def not hairsplitting. Just taking one corner will tell you how different it is between the two. The C4 has outrageous grip, the C2 is more alive and fluid. The C2 trots, dances. The C4 marches in formation.

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Very nicely stated. I don't know, Ben. This new you is just too darn erudite .

I just made an offer on a '00 C4. If the guy doesn't accept, I will probably start looking at C2's. You guy basically have me convinced.

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i'm the same ol' ben really. and if you read my posts, i never commit to anything when it comes to expressing myself. i'm as renaissance as it comes in teh way i dress, the way i act... i go with what i feel is comfy in the particular situation. so you'll see me type lazy and fast in ebonics whatever...you get your typical bigoted oh is that english you're speaking? oh check your grammar... sometimes i feel like writing in more formal diction. call it schizophrenic... i call it keeping you suckas guessing. you won't ever figure me out. with all due respect hehe but again, anyone who is telling you yea go for the 911 it's great in the snow... is giving you bad advice. if you were my brother, i'd tell you you're fuqin stupid to drive this thing to the mtns and i'd beat your **** if i saw you do this. i'd tell you set aside about $5K for a nice utility truck, lots of great options here.... and then get the 911 for fun dry days or doing whatever you do in the metropolitan/suburban area. for all the picky people who buy this kinda car (ppi checks, paint checks, accidents? tracked?).... man i'd never ever buy a 911 that's been daily driven let alone one that's been used all year round with a damn ski rack on top for a season of it. usage is clearly evident.

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I agree on the advice to get a beater. I never like to tell a guy he needs to spend if I'm not sure how deep he had to dig for the 911 in the first place, but a truck is a better choice if you're going to go to real mountains. I just roll my eyes at people who say, "Yeah, I drive a so-and-so sports car in the snow, and I've never had a problem...". I even heard it from Z3 drivers. Blah blah blah. It's ground clearance that stops you in real snow. It's ground clearance that makes you get out and walk, spend the night in some gas station if you're lucky and then find your car 'modified' by an MoT snowplow the next day. The rest is just slipperiness, and good tires make all the difference there. Having said that, I'll also say this: My 911 does a better job of putting power to the ground on slippery stuff than any of my three previous Bimmers. So when I say it's great in the snow, I really mean it's surprising in the snow. I'd defend the decision to drive a 911 year-round as a daily, in the city, on plowed roads, that kind of thing. But to really be 'out there' in one? No way.

While I didn't buy my 996 to be a garage queen, I don't drive it in the snow THAT much simply because I have another car that works better on those days. With that in mind, though, I did buy the car to drive, not to babysit wear-and-tear or its depreciation value. My 996 has a few battle scars, but they're preferable to being too scared to drive the car unless it's a perfect day and I'm not going to park it anywhere. If I didn't ever have to drive my C4 in really crappy conditions, I'm not sure why I'd put up with all this understeer.

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Me too. Except for the part about the understeer.

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I am totally picking up what you're laying down here. -I'm sure a lot of cars can do well with the right tires in the snow. A lot of cars. People shouldn't be surprised that the Porsche 911 also could drive thru the snow with the right tires if need be. -If the 911 is your dream car and you did stretch to get it and you must have it, you think about it all day... there's no choice here. Get it, deal with it when it gets snowy. -But a snowboarder? HELL NO. Let's not assume that just cuz a guy doesn't take his 911 in the snow or keeps it clean babies it or is any more concerned about depreciation than you tooloud. I probably put more miles on my "babied" 911 than you did over the course of this past year. It's just that my car hasn't shown any wear on it inside/outside... but then it's a lot easier for me since I live in an area that's very gentle on cars and I'm just **** like that. You know, being the self-admitted vain guy here.