The 996 legacy

Just curious for some opinions. How do folks think the 991 might affect the 996�s legacy? By being bigger, heavier, and more digital than ever, the 991 seems like it�s about to take the 911 forever down a more luxury/GT-oriented path. It seems to me that if this is the case, then the 996 could become to the water cooled 911s what the early long-hoods are to the air-cooled cars, i.e., the simpler car that everyone appreciates for its purity, even if it�s slower and cruder. Or will people 20 years from now still be bitching about how the 996 has ugly headlights?

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One never knows. I will tell you that a friend of mine who had 2012 997 Black edition drove my cars and commented that these might very well be the last of 911's that look, (I believe he was referring to the interior), feel, and smell like "Porsche". As nice as his car was, it did not thrill him like his previous Porsche's and he just sold it. Said it was too expensive to just sit and he really didn't have much interest in driving it. That said - I didn't pruchase mine expecting any appreciation in value and I'll probably drive them until they are worn out or I get buried in one of them.

Well the oldest are half way to being antiques and the headlight critics are still in full force so I wouldn't expect it to beloved by all in another 20. For the water cooled people, yes I think the 996 will be the gold standard. But the old air cooled cars will likely continue to be "the real Porsche" until the last one has rusted away and the last person to drive one has died.

Fly in the ointment to this is the M96. Edit: I like the way 996s look. Early 3.4 or "facelift" 3.6, I think they have a purity that goes back to those early 911s. Unfortunately, the M96 has forever left a mark on all cars it was fitted (and we're talking a LOT of cars here). I fully appreciate that there are finally some aftermarket solutions that may prove to solve the problem.....but we're nowhere near certain yet. Time will tell. Porsche running a completely unrelated motor in its factory race cars as well as Turbos and GT models underlined the motor's shortcomings.

Interesting question... I recently drove a 991 S, hard. It is an amazing car. Every generation of 911 is criticized at some point for being larger, more complex, heavier, softer, a sellout to tradition, etc., etc.. It is always true. And yet, after a while the new is normal and then the next is too, whatever. The 993 was a watershed, and as the last water cooled 911, it is iconic. And absolutely beautiful (spent part of my today on back roads with friends, including a pristine black 993 Turbo S - has to be the best looking 911 ever). The 996? A good 911, but it will never be a great, heralded 911. Too much commonality with the Boxster for one, and then there is that M96... All debates on certain acronyms aside, it will never be considered a great engine like the 3.2 or the later 993's 3.6. And while they will always be worth more money, I suspect the 997 will be much the same. And yet, the least-loved 911s (964? 2.7?) are still better than 99% of the other cars out there. So I'm going to keep smiling every time I walk up to mine. Big smile.

It's funny how we criticize the new 911, much like our cars where criticized when they came out because they were a a leap forward. I was at the dealership this week for a couple minor parts. The cars sure are beautiful... Just like mine

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I have pondered this question many times. There are two basic issues that make a car a classic IMO - styling and performance. Styling: Mine is Arctic silver on black and sits quite low on PSS9 coilovers and 5 spoke liteweight wheels. It has no wings, skirts, sills, spliters...it's just about as pure as a MkII 996 can get. I prefer aggressive lines and stance to bling, but recognize that everyone is different. From the back views the car is a knockout to my eye, but the front and side views are not. It's not ugly - it's just not pretty, and yes, the headlights have a lot to do with that. For that reason - the 996 will not be *the* car that people lust after. The 911, 993, 997 - and (time will tell) maybe the 991 however will. Performance: The 996 simply has *nothing* to be ashamed about. I've driven pretty much every varient of rear engined Porsche by now (except the 991) and sure there are lots that go or turn a little bit better than the 996, but as an all-arounder - the 996 is nothing but great. Note I didn't say good, I said great and I meant it. I like 'em rough, and have installed coilovers, sway bars, RS motor mounts, and a liteweight flywheel. It leaves me wanting very little. Let's leave reliability out of the equation for now. I change my oil a lot and my car has done 200K kilometres so far, although the M96 was exchanged by the factory for an M97 back in '05. It runs fantastic. I sleep fine at night...so what if it blows up eventually. Deal with it. So - verdict? I think the 996 will be treated more like the 928 was - maybe a bit like the 964. Both great cars when treated right and both turn heads if they aren't messed up with bling and tack, but not everybody wants one like they do a 993 or a longhood 911.. Ultimately the best thing about the 996 is that it is affordable. I still can't comfortably justify the cost of even a MkI 997S....so what am I supposed to drive? An old air cooled 911 ? Not for every days thanks. A 928 ? I don't like them all that much. A Boxster? yah - no. So - thank god for the 996 I say. It may never make a most desirable Porsche list - but it will always be lurking.

It will always be the Rodney Dangerfield of Porsches. In the company's narrative, it was the first 'modern' 911, and defined as such it will be trumped over and over again in the years to come. Which is a pity. The 996 saved the company. It also saved the 911. It was also a monument to what Porsche thought mattered in terms of continuity for the series, and cast the mold. And it was also in a completely different league, performance wise, from the car it replaced. It was the first time in a long time a 911 could hold its head up as a sports car without some kind of authenticity asterisk to explain away its quirks. Th 996 was historically among the most important 911s ever, but I doubt that's how anybody but the hardest core Porsche historians will see it. Even its owners don't treat it with much reverence. There's a saying in Silicon Valley: The pioneers get the arrows, and the settlers get the land. Pretty much sums it up, I think

del

Widebody versions and the GT3 will become classics and values will eventually stabilize and appreciate. The others will depreciate into oblivion.

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That's sort of my point. The 991 owes a lot to the 996, but I wonder if anyone will care. I can't believe people born since, say 1990, will care that much about the aircooleds, so when the nostalgia starts getting thick, what place will the 996 occupy? I think I was wrong in my original post when I said the 991 is the heaviest yet, but the point still stands.

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I sure hope so. As for the head light. They were ahead of their time. They have more function and get rid of the need of having extra lights needed to be added into the front bumper. All the other modern models including the 918 use the same type of updated headlight. The 996 may become the most affordable 911 in history. I also think it is the sleekest water cooled 911. Reading on the 991 forum it seems that all the electronic go fast gadgets come with a price of wearing out rotors and brake pads, this leads me to believe that the 996 is also a very economical when using the car for the track as well. I just hope their is an cheaper way to replace or rebuild the engine in the future. Is it me or did Porsche increase the price of the engine? I had always though they were suppose to be easily produced and cheap but I am told a new engine in over 30k Cdn

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When Porsche stopped producing the engine for new vehicles, the price naturally went up. If engines aren't rolling off the line all day long anyway, selling crate motors becomes a lot less economical.

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Agreed.

I have seen a number of cars over the years go through the normal cycle of depreciation....sort of bottom out....have a bunch of people claim that they'd never be worth much, only to have the non-customized survivors be worth some money (eventually). I still think that the best mods are ones that can be returned to stock without residual damage. I'd hold on to any original parts I remove.

Consider that the 991 might have the same impact on the 996 that the Boxster had on the 914??? That first high volume lower priced Porsche mid engine car was called lots of names by Porsche Purists during it's day. But they sold lots (I bought one) and prices dropped... and 40 years later ... a really pristine 914 is selling for more than your average used car lot Boxster! Porsche Purist only love the car they have and refuse to look at the truly New Models like the 914 and the 964 and the 996 that make radical changes to the established model. Remember the 356 crowd hated the 911 .. for a year or so... the rest is history. I for one think the narrow body 911 and the Mk 1 996 have a purity of design that F.A. Porsche would approve of... "Design must be functional and functionality has to be translated visually into aesthetics without gags that that have to be explained first.".

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+996 Well said and I agree with your assertion 100%. Unfortunately, I think we are in the minority here, even amongst 996 owners/followers. Shameful, IMHO, that 996 owners here don't step up and defend the model to the point that it deserves...

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+1. The whole wide-body thing is like a fetish to some people. I never really got it.

The 996 very much fits into the Porsche 911 development bloodline, whatever the oil-cooled haters said in 1998. Notice that the 997 when introduced was embraced by the 911 community, when it is nothing more than a 996 with a couple years of technical updates (all good) and a thinner door panel profile. For this reason, I think 996 pricing will follow the 964 value line over time. Meaning the 993 will always be an outlier (on the high side) as it was the last with oil cooling and low volume production numbers. This site gets the 996. It is the Porsche you want if your are going to drive daily and hard and want to add mods at a reasonable price point. A classic it will never be, but who cares, this car delivers real world performance at conering and straight line speeds earlier models could only dream about.

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If something is good, more of it is better, right?

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Not really, Porsche noticed the wide body models got a lot of recognition and they increased the width on the base 997 model. I think it was wide enough when the did that but they further increased it with the 4S model. While they did make it wider they also made it taller and more bulbous on the 997. The bulbous basket ball shape is not as pleasing to the eye as a sleek wide rear end. Luckily on a GT3 the wing really hides it.

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I think most of us here defend it simply by driving it.

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+996 I could have bought any model I wanted to and decided on the narrow body. Just a fabulous car. I have been driving sports cars my whole life and am as proud of this one as any. I bought this car to drive, not to leave in the garage and see how much its worth in 15 years.

Porsche likes to pretend the 996 never existed. Notice anything missing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=0BMf8dTAo_8

996's are down into the mid teens, some as low as $10k. 996T are into the upper twenties The 991 will have zero effect on the chassis; we already know where it's headed.

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into my garage and on the track in a year or two if they stay this low!

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I have not seen any cars in decent condition at those prices. If anything, values seemed to have stabilized after a fairly steep drop in 2008-09. Good 996s go for 20-30k, while good 996tts are 35-40+. Certainly there is an occasional fire sale by someone, or a guy gets some amazing deal. And beaters, salvage cars, and ridiculously high mileage cars will always be cheap. But for good condition, appropriate mileage cars your numbers are completely inaccurate.

Im just going to put this here, I will buy any 996tt with a clean title and is not spray painted camo that is in the 20k price range. Just let me know i have my checkbook ready. It's astonishing to me how great a value the 996tt is even at $50k all because of some headlights.

The cheapest 996TT I've seen was a high mileage (~200k) tip that was in the mid/upper 20s still. And only 996's I see in the teens (at least around here) are Mk1 tip Cabrios. Not really my cup of tea.

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its a car. since when do inanimate objects deserve defense? are their feelings going to be hurt? Are they going to weep (maybe from the rms). give me a break. some people are realistic.

I went from a gorgeous '83 SC to a pristine '04 C2 and couldn't be happier... The SC was a beautiful 'classic' car. It wasn't particularly fast, but it looked great. Yes, it probably got more attention than the '04, if thumbs-up on the highway or comments when parking are the metric. For $25K, I picked up a 55K late model 100% original and dealer mantained '04 996 that looks like it just rolled out of the showroom. Performance is fantastic, AC actually works, and to my eye she is gorgeous in all narrow body Polar Silver over Black splendor. $2,500 will get me an LN IMS bearing, OEM clutch, and preventativelly replaced RMS installed. Chump change compared to the cost of repairing typical airhead issues, like a front main o-ring leak (Split the cases!), worn valve guides, or worn syncros. Heck, it would have run me nearly $2K just to get working (read effective) AC in my SC! I have no illusions that my 996 is an "investment". But I predict the cost of ownership for a car that will actually be driven, let say 4 years + 30K miles, factoring repair/maintenance costs as well as any depreciation or appreciation, is easily as good as a typical $25K aircooled 911. My recipe for a great Porsche experience on a budget: $22-$27K budget 2002-2004 C2 Coupe 40K-75K miles No cabs No tips No widebodys No/minimal previous owner mods After purchase, budget $2.5K for RMS, IMS, clutch. Maybe budget a bit for an AOS and coolant tank replacement as well. Add fuel, tires, miles & smiles, repeat.

Also agree that a 996TT is an even better idea if you can stretch to a $35K-$40K budget, which should net you a no tip/no cab/no salvage clean 40K-60K mile TT. That's what you would need to budget for a nice non-turbo 993...Personally, I'd take the 996TT in a heartbeat!

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That is an excellent - and realistic - list! The only bullet I would add is "as many high-priced original options as possible (ex. PSM, full leather, bi-xenon, etc.)

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PSM, full leather, HID? Absolutely! Maybe even X51 or sport seats if you find one... But personally I hate the cars loaded up with $$$ worth of wood accents, supple leather and the like. Ugly/worn/dated interior's seem to be a real flaw of 996's. A basic black well preserved interior seems to stand the test of time a bit better. I'm also not a fan of the aero package on non-turbo cars, but that's more personal preference.

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Uhh, I think it was just an expression.

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and I think that guy is a bit nutty. who knows.

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I think 20 years after the morons continually saying how much nicer their 993, 997 head lights are and how ugly the 996 is that the 996's legacy is the stranded redheaded stepchild in the 911 series. I'll continually love them, specially the areo kitted narrow bodies and the wide bodies.

Contrary to popular belief, it's not the headlights (by themselves) that kill the looks of the 996. It's the bumper. As we all know a 996 MK1 looks like a Boxster from the front because it IS a Boxster from the front. Kiss of death. They will continue to spiral downward in value. MkII 996 narrow bodies with the improved headlights still look Miata soft. Combine that with norrow body shape (ergo no shape) you have a very poor looking car. They may be great to drive, but aesthetically they are awful. The wide body versions with the big turbo bumper combined with the updated headlights look great. I'm not alone when I say I think they look better than a typical 997 front end without a GT3 or turbo bumper. Most non Porsche people can't tell the difference between a 996 C4S and a 997 C4S even when they're parked next to one another. It's the wide bodied cars that get 10 year old boys to dream of owning a Porsche when they grow up. I appreciate the narrow bode guys defending their decision, but that's not the point of the thread. Do what you have to do to convince yourselves. The market has spoken and the non wide-bodied 996's are the loser. The winners are guys that want an amazing track car.

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I don't know if I have ever disagreed more strongly with a comment in the 12 years I have been on Rennlist.

+1

He has a point. The front end is soft looking, but on a personal level, I don't consider that an issue. The car certainly is nowhere near "awful" aesthetically. I happen to think the car is very good looking overall. However, everybody has, an is entitled to, an opinion.

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See, now, I was totally supportive of you expressing your opinion on what is an entirely subjective question, right up until you implied that opposing opinions were delusional. Thus, the troll line is crossed. No arguing with that. But the market is very often stupid about value, even if it gets to make the rules. And that's to the benefit of the people who are shopping for a 996. If you need to prove something by owning the thing the greatest number of people want, you're going to pay for it. But if you're not trying to impress anybody, I'd say the narrow body cars are pretty close to the opposite of being losers.

EVO magazine recently had a subjective "driving feel" comparo test of various 911 versions. The 996 did very well and surprised some of the testers. I think as all these cars age, people are starting to realize that the torsion bar cars are incredibly primitive, and even the 964s and 993s are feeling the effect of being left behind by progress. The 996s and 997 may be the ultimate expression of what Porsche can build without all sorts of active/electronic gizmos. Time will tell.

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I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.... Widebodies were significantly more expensive new, and slightly more expensive today. They have done no better in value retention than non-wide body's. eg: 2004 C2 base price was ~$69,000, figure $10K in options so $79,000. Nice one worth about $26K today, about 33% of its original value.. 2004 C4S base was ~$84,000, same $10K in options to $94,000. Nice one worth $31K today, the exact same 33% of its original value. 2004 Turbo was ~$119,000, $129K with $10 in options. 33%, or $43,000, sounds about market for 2004 Turbo as well. I would call all those current prices "aggressive" and might take some searching for the right car, but by no means a lottery win. If there is any lesson to be learned, it's don't buy a new Porsche (or any other luxury/sport car) unless don't mind an extremely large depreciation hit.

From the perspective of a first time recent 996 owner, less than 1% of the population knows the difference between a 993, a 996 and a 991. Since I bought my 996, EVERY neighbor, friend, work colleague, passer by loves my car. Not a single one of them has said, "hmmm, that car is decent but I would much rather have an air cooled engine." And none of them can guess how old it is. Almost all of them think it's newer than it is. In my newbie view, they are ALL beautiful cars, and I am so thankful that the "enthusiasts" out there hate the 996, or I never could have afforded one Plus I didn't buy it so I could check it's value for resale some day. I bought it to drive it and enjoy it. Love you guys

Another point about 996's... Their value is almost entirely based on condition, mileage and residual of original price. No speculative element. 993's and 911's seem to have a large speculative component, which might go up or down. I have zero interest in purchasing cars as speculative investments. Minimize cost of ownership? Of course! Maximize enjoyment and bang for buck? Absolutely! But as soon as my car becomes my investment, I probably wouldn't want to drive it the way a Porsche was meant to be driven.

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+1 Exactly!!!

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I'm the one who is a bit nutty???...now THAT is funny. Study the words "literally" and "figuratively" and come back to this discussion when you feel you have a good grasp on these concepts.

It just so happens that there are two good articles pertaining to the “996 legacy” in the latest issues of GT Porsche and 911 & Porsche World magazines. Does anyone have these that they could post? In the former, the magazine has an article explaining why the animosity towards the 996, and to a lesser extent the 997, is undeserved. It also mentions a great point which has escaped me to this point, and that is the 996s resemblance to the original 911. When designing the 996, Porsche started with a clean slate and was able to harken back to the clean lines of the original 911 design. In 911 & Porsche World they have an article about the most underrated 911s and, of course, the 996 is on the list. The MKI 996 to be exact(the early 993s made the list as well). In this article too, the writer makes the point that the 996 is undeserving of the criticism it receives and that in actuality it is an excellent car. In fact, I think they mention that it may be the most underrated Porsche of all. It’s a great time to be a 996 enthusiast, at least in the eyes of the aficionado magazines, so good that I think my car stopped crying(weeping from RMS) and I think I can detect a hint of a smile from its front fascia…and I mean this LITERALLY...HAHA

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A longhood 911S's resemblance to a 912 doesn't seem to have hurt its value too much. I think there's a fanboy feedback loop at work here that says certain models will always be lesser, and public opinion follows.

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Here's the web site of the guy who designed the 996. There are some photos of sketches and models for the car. If you really look at your 996 carefully, as a piece of design rather than as a car or whatever, you can see how incredibly respectful of the past Lai was with it. I think they will look a lot different and more pure to most eyes in a few years, when they're officially old. http://www.designnstyling.com

My 1st post: I have dreamed of owning a 911 for 30 years now. I have owed numerous other German cars trying to get close to the feeling you only can achieve from driving these magical cars. Three months ago I found the cleanest ’01 Artic Silver with 66K on the clock for $20k – showroom quality, clean title, so new it stunk. I was totally ruined and hooked after the first test drive. I will never forget the rush the 1st time I shifted out of 3rd gear at 80 MPH and hearing that 3.4 suck so hard over my left ear during – yes during the test drive. And yes - I’ll do the usual PM’ing - IMS, RMS, AOS, WP, clutch, starter, etc. and still have an affordable ‘super-car’ with money left over. I figure that the fun-factor plus depreciation should always be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of what I paid for it. I tried so hard a year earlier to get all worked up over an ’86 911 Turbo for $20K that a really good friend had pampered for the last 10 years. It had a bigger turbo & I/C, wheels, the works. It was/is a super nice car but the small increase in performance (which really I don’t even remember now during the test drive now) DIDN’T hold a candle to the balance of power and luxury I get from twisting on my 996. Very few things in my life have struck me in the way that my 996 has from day one – all for $20k.

They're all cool dudes. Drive em hard. John

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I like to think that us narrow-body guys drive the Keira Knightley of the 996 world. Nothing wrong with that shape!

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No Cab? Hmmm.

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Just personal taste... Also, Colorado seems to be too hot/sunny in the summer, to cold in the winter, and cabs in general are to windy/noisy for me on the highway, so it really cuts down on the amount of time I'd have the top dropped. If it's any consolation, even though I'm not a fan of looks of 996 Cab's, 993 Cabs IMHO look even worse!

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I respect your opinion. I hope you respect my opinion that you are flat wrong. Concerning the part about the market has spoken, the market has made us 996 owners the winner.

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That makes me feel better! Not really. IMHO, there is nothing like cruising with the top down listening to the "noise" coming from the sweet flat 6 tipped off with some Fister D's. I get that CO may not be the best place for a ragtop, but you are calling my sweet ride ugly. But, in the spirit of the Holidays, I'll forgive you!

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Really? Saying one looks worse than the other is like saying Erin Andrews looks worse than Scarlett Johansson. Thanks so much for this! I wish there was some more meat to that website, but it's an instant Favorite on my website list. I would love to get a poster size of some of those sketches to hang in my garage. And a warm welcome to you dmw996!

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Great link, thanks Bruce.

Love my non-widebody. You can't really call it a thin or narrow body, jeez, just park it next to about anything except a vette or a widebody. It's a wide car. Love the Keira Knightly anology, though. Lights never bothered me, for the longest time, I didn't understand what those posts even referred to. Worst looking aspect of the 996 (in the US) has always been the huge gap over the wheels in the wheel well with stock suspension. Incredible what the difference dropping 32mm makes on the looks, never mind the handling. Certainly no better car for the money.

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Agreed. Question: how in the world does your lip stay on with it lowered? What is your clearance? I'm going to do spacers but lowering it, I don't think I can get over the speed bumps in my parking garage at work.

Gonzo, IMHO you're a very forgiving soul! I'll chalk it up to Holiday spirit.

Your car has an added lip under the bumper cover, so yes, if you lowered your car like mine, fuggedaboutit. I have the standard C2 bumper cover. The leading edge of my front bumper cover has a few scrapes under it, from entrances and exits. What scrapes most on my car, since lowering are the GT brake ducts I added. I could go lower still, and be within the range Bilstein shows, (actually, my rears are at max height within the range) but I am at the limit of how low I can go and be comfortable with the car clearing local conditions.

I think we need a "Flattering pictures of 996 narrow bodies" thread, cabs included!

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Here's a narrow body that most 997's couldn't even keep up to.

and here is a 993 that most 996 if any can keep up with!

What does that picture have to do with this discussion?

2003 nb coupe ,pss10s,tarret suspension components etc,etc,just the right stance.

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I don't know why he'd post up a Ruf. Heck a 996 Ruf could easily keep up to it.

Some favourite flattering photos I've kept from the forums. First gen 996 with aero. Widebody Cab Gorgeous 996 GT3 vs the stunning 997 RS

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Love that GT3's stance...It is perfect. Now how can I make my car look like that?

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pss10's GT3-03 Tailbase with 55'' RS/Cup Wing GT3 RS Front Bumper GT2 Front Splitter GT3 RS Rockers Found all of them here. No affiliation. http://www.gettydesign.com/996_bodywork.html

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I'll take two please. She's definitely one of a kind.

I'm fortunate to own several P cars. Two air cooled's, a 997C4S, and a fully track prepped 996 for DE's. I just love the 996. It's so much more capable than my air cooled cars with a purchase price (fully track prepped) in the low 20's. also must admit to liking the headlights... Go figure. While the 3.4 can't keep up with the 3.8 it's really not that far behind. I have the Fisker hack mufflers which really make the 996 howl under hard acceleration. So to sum up, I really don't have a favorite year they all seem to have their place. The 996 is so capable And affordable it's just hard not to really appreciate them.

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Well all but the wing will fit my car...Hmmm, something to put on my list for Santa.

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Says the guy with the car I described. Look. It's not personal. You guys can convince yourselves all you want, but the fact is that very few people find the standard 996 to be an attractive car. In fact, it�s almost universally panned for its dopey appearance. There�s just no love out there for the poor NB 996. Sorry. Naturally, a bunch of NB 996 owners in a forum group dedicated to said car would disagree, as well you should. There is no denying the many virtues of the NB 996, but that isn�t the premise of the thread. The question is, what will be the legacy of the 996? Aside from a few exceptions (widebodies and GT3), it doesn�t look good for the future values and reputation. Unlike the 964 that suffered �ugly stepchild� status for some time and has since bounced back, the criticism of that car was never really aesthetic. Ask any used car dealer if they want a NB 996 on their lot and they�ll tell you it�s a salesproof car. It will sit for months until some kid that just wants to drive a Porsche crashes it on a test drive. Go to any non Porsche specific auto enthusiast event and watch the snickering and snide remarks. It�s sad. I don�t think it�s right, but it�s the truth. Like others have suggested, the trick with a NB 996 is to love it and drive it for the fantastic car that is with no expectation that it will be a collectors item one day.

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I really don't mean to suggest they are delusional. I just think they're missing the point. I like Taco Bell burritos. I also know that just because I like them, doesn't mean they are good. If I went around telling everyone that Taco Bell made the best Mexican food, well. You get the picture?

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I mean really? You're putting a Boxster and 912 in the same category? Think this one through man. The Bosxter was introduced to the market as an entry level car for the brand. Then in Porsche's infinite wisdom they introduce their new flagship car with the same front end? I understand the cost savings involved, but it would have done the 996 a huge favor if they had just changed that Miata bumper right from the start. The 912 is a less expensive 911 unlike a NB 996 which is perceived as an overpriced Boxster. (Don't tell me how it isn't. I know. I said perceived.)

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Yeah...actually the man has a point. I'm a *very* happy MkII 996 owner. Mine has performace mods on the dark side of sensible and it scratches pretty much all the itchy parts. But a beauty queent it ain't. I got a compliment the other day from a road check RCMP officer (of all people). After he verified I hadn't been drinking he started gushing about how beautifil my car was...I was dumbstruck. As I drove away I tried to tell him how great the car was *despite* how it looked. Unlike John however, I do think time will treat the aesthetics well. I never liked the 964 because of the door sills and the bulbous bumper, but I always admired the mechanicals. I have gotten past the looks these days, and I think in anther 15 years the 996 will be appreciated as a whole package. The 997 however will *always* be the prettier car.

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You are truly enlightened.... Must be great to know exactly what everybody else thinks! I do agree that some 996's look pretty hideous. Let's just say that based on your other thread , we definitely don't share the same automotive taste...

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Nice try. If you had actually read the thread you're referencing you'd have noticed that I posted the first two pics as examples of how bad even a wide body can look. That thread was about how wheel sizes and ride height effects the look of a 996 C4S. Regardless, I don't expect many people here to agree with my mod choices as it's pretty clear I'm no purist. Also, I'm not trying to convince anyone that what I like is what should be "liked" BTW, we disagree that this is a great example of a 996? It happens to be the very same car as the one in the 3rd pic you site. The new owner hadn't had the Rotoform wheels added yet. Anyway, you dig NB 996's? Great. So do I kinda. Not many people agree with us. Don't shoot the messenger. This reminds me of the time I posted a thread on another forum telling them that Ed Hardy cloths are lame, lol.

Fwiw somebody asked me yesterday as we peeped into the garage if my car was the "new GTS". I think definitely there is love amongst the wider audience for the "specials" like the widebodies

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Excellent Trolling Personally, I'm in the camp that's glad that the Porschephile community dislikes the 996 because it looks like a Boxster or it's just not "attractive". They have contributed to the undervaluing of this fine drivers car and lighted the load on my wallet. To the rest of the general public, 993=996=997=991=Boxster=Porsche.

god this is such stupid nonsense. people, who cares what the general public, jim bob your neighbor, or the rcmp or whatever think about your car. If you like it, then be done with it, or admit that its a vanity exercise. Anybody who buys a modern car (with maybe 2 exceptions) for resale value needs their head examined.

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What he said. Add to that the easy credit/lease stupidity of the time and you realize that the major element of depreciation is the sheer numbers of 996s purchased during the period.

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Exactly, most non-car people think the 996 is very new, and better looking than all the bug eyed Porsches. I don't agree with how 997 or 993 owners seem to dislike the 996, but I don't care. It's that irrational dislike that allowed me to buy one so cheaply. My favorite comment I once read was claiming the the change from 996 to 997 was the greatest turnaround in automotive styling history. I thought that comment was hilarious, because they look almost exactly the same other than the headlights. I have had 3 different dealers ask me in the last year if I was willing to sell because of the demand for 10 year old 911's. I really like my car, and so does everyone I've ever met in person.

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I was at my chiropractor's office yesterday and he saw me drive up in my 996. When I went in for my appointment he took me outside to show me his brand new to him 07 997 C2S with tech art package. Only 13k miles. He just got it yesterday. We were joined by several guys from the waiting room, all car guys apparently and after giving his car the once over (beautiful btw) they moved on to mine. Of course my interior did not have the bells and whistles and one of the guys asked me what year mine was. When I told him 03 he looked at both cars again said, "Boy, they haven't changed much". That pretty well sums it up for me.

When I look at the depreciation schedules of other models, I don't see that the 996 is following a dramatically different path than most other 9xx series cars. The significant sales of the 996 conflicts with claims that they're so ugly. Had sales tanked, there would have been a dramatic, immediate style change (if necessary). Yet, it's just a car. For the company's first foray into a consumer-based, mass-produced, water-cooled flat 6 -- it's had remarkably few problems, and no genuine fatal flaws. Yep, there are items that have limited service lives -- but that's hardly unusual. However, the 996 has entered the "uncool" period of its lifespan. Not new enough to garner status. Not old enough to be interesting or unique. Will it ever have the CACH� of a 993? Probably not. But I owned a 993 for several years and was happy to replace it with the 996....and am still pleased -- as the 996 is a much more enjoyable car with fewer compromises for the driver (more leg room, steering wheel is actually in the middle of the seat rather than offset, cheaper to maintain, etc.) Eventually, the value of unmolested 996's will start to increase--and may even garner a following as the first water cooled 911. Given the numbers of them, the interest will be modest -- unless there becomes some mod, some future thing that can be done to the cars to skirt around tightening regulations. But I welcome all the young guys who are heavily modifying their cars. You are hastening the day when it will be hard to find an original. I'm patient.

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You're welcome!

Bought a 2001 996 in 2004 with only 7,000 miles Had to sell 2 years ago, have now spent 6 months trying to find another ( Zanzibar Red Coupe) I drove that last one often and hard Plan the same for the next Anyone know of a Zanzibar for sale ?

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The first 996 I ever saw was Zanzibar Red. It was in the showroom at the local dealership. Very cool

GT1 is a legacy

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and the lights have zip to do with it. The gt1 originally had 993 headlights. not like it makes an ounce of difference.

Read the latest Excellence article comparing the 356 to a 912. Last few sentences could be comparing the 993 to the 996. What was loved by it's owner yet is now old (993) is revered ... but is still "old". What is new (996) is clearly better, yet those who like the old will claim it just is not so. If you drive a 996 first with no experience in a 911 you would never see value in what is clearly less of a Porsche when you then drive an "Oil/Air cooled" 964 or 993. Just my two penny's worth.

Coming from a the Volkswagen world, I've already heard the air-cooled vs. water-cooled arguments a million times. The funning thing is, just like in the VW world, all the waterpumpers love their cars yet are magically able to ALSO love and appreciate the air cooled cars. The other way around though? Not so much.

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This is correct. When I was looking for a DD Porsche to join my '84 911 in the garage, my wife was not at all interested in the 993's. She loved the 996's. She said, "Why would you want to go with a 911 that seems so much like the old 911 you have now? It feels old and dated." She was right.

IMHO... My '83 911 SC was a 'classic sports car'. Very gorgeous, turned heads, handled well, but is vastly outperformed by more modern sports cars. Heck, even my EcoBoost F150 would destroy it in a stoplight drag race. I loved looking at it, and taking it for a drive in the mountains on a perfect day. In my opinion, the 993 is also classic sports car. Closer in performance to the 911 SC than a 996, and sitting in it or driving it feels much more like a classic than modern sports car. Very pretty to look at, fun to drive, but not what I'd want to drive on a less than perfect day. Some speculative value and possibility for appreciation, but not really an investment-grade car. Will almost certainly require more expensive upkeep than a lower mileage 996. My 2004 911 C2 is an 'everyday sports car'. Great, though perhaps not gorgeous looks, reasonable acquisition cost, low ongoing cost, very good performance that can be modified to awesome performance at reasonable costs. It is a tool... I will spend far more time driving it than waxing it. I will take it to the track and not worry about 'diminishing my investment'. It will get lots of miles, fuel, oil changes, and tires. Here's my personal 'Porsche Enjoyment' equation. Yours might differ... PFBZ's_Porsche_Enjoyment = (Performance + looks + miles + smiles)/(purchase cost + ongoing cost + depreciation)