Carnage from VIR - YIKES!!!

Hopefully this was not one of you guys. Apparently a Mustang took out the GT3 and a CGT. YIKES!!! Chad

Ouch !

Wow. Right rear quarter view would probably show more structural damamge. Wonder where it happened? VIR has tons of run-off, and I have difficulty thinking where it could have happened.

Lee's RS project car? I hope not.

I think I recognize that car . . . I will try to confirm.

I don't know. Looks awfully close to DCLee's car: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-gt2-gt3-forum/199677-a-few-more-pix-of-the-rs-project-car.html

More carnage...here's the culprit: Another victim: Chad

That's a real ouch!!

That is who I had in mind. What a shame. Details Details. What happened? DE, race, what?

Chad, post a link to the thread on the other board. Are there more photos?

It came from the BMW crowd. Not many other details around. I was hoping to find out more myself. Chad

Quelle domage. (Since we are all becoming Francophones) or even... O-kinodoku-sama-desu! for the ricer crowd hmmm.. I wonder if Robyn likes Japanese?

Looks like a DE event. Don't seems to see roll cage in the cars. Its ashame. All three cars were nice.

I was thinking more along the lines of Scheisse, Mierde, Merde or just plain holy ****. That is so sad.

Oh the horror! My Lord, the CGT still has paper plates!!!! Leave it to the muscle cars to ruin a perfectly good day at the track.

so will the mustang's insurance cover the repair bill for the other cars involved since it was at a track??? Assuming of course it was the fault of the mustang. Wondering if his insurance doesn't cover him because he was on a track - would his insurance cover any damage inflicted by him, i.e. other cars??? If not, then tracks should make it a policy to have any drivers prove insurance coverage...

It sure appears to be DC Lee's ... oh no. Hey, I wonder if he wants to sell the seats...

On the track everyone is on their own. Fault is entirely irrelevant. They make that very clear on the waivers you must sign when you enter, if you bother to read them Of course, nobody would stop a gentleman from voluntarily accepting blame and paying for damage that he causes. Somehow, I don't think the mustang owner will be rushing to pay the damage for the CGT, let alone the GT3 RS wannabe (which has had some seriously expensive modifications).

Suddenly a $40k - $60k sports racer or formula Mazda (vs. balling up your expensive street car) doesn't look so bad, huh?

If that plate says TX, which I think it does, that's likely the CGT that was shipped from here in OH no more than 3 weeks ago. The original buyer put down a $50,0000.00 non-refundable deposit, then the wife nixed the whole thing after the car arrived. Forfeited the deposit . Probably cheaper than a divorce. Scared the dealership since they had already paid PAG for the car. Thay called around, and a guy in TX said, "Sure, why not?". That guy can probably turn around and just buy another, and pay for the other cars to boot.

I do love sushi! But, those pics...are simply painful. I would have a hard time ...not going postal on the guy...

I deleted my gripes after someone cleared the air.... -Eli

As far as I am concerned � Kudos to the guy running the CGT on the track. Far too many fantastic cars get bought, put in a garage and never turn a wheel � which is a crying shame. These things were built to be the ultimate driving machines, not the ultimate bauble. Barry

OK, enough with the runors and conjecture!! I was there and all 3 cars while damaged at the same portion of the track had their incidents independently of one another. the Mustang was the last to get damaged. The yellow GT3 is NOT Lee's and the owner occasionally comes around rennlist. The Carrera GT wasn't being driven fast or aggressively but the driver did make a rookie mistake and ended up in the wall. All of the incidents happened at turn 10. It's a fast left hander after you exit the uphill essess. Unfortunately if you're going fast enough and you lift or pinch the exit the car will spin to the outside of the track and the relatively close tire wall. Again, the mustang was not at fault and was being driven quite well at the event up to that point!! eesh, the internet and the rumors. :-\ -KJ

Check out the 'off topic' board. There are a number of pics with this one and a brand new A/silver one as well.

More info: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...99&forum_id=23

Is it the guy who came down to VIR last month with the black trailer and RSR Wannabee? So that other rookies (namely me), do not make similar mistakes, what did he do? I have seen more cars go off (and get damaged) at turn 10. Plenty go off at Turn 1 but there is plenty of run off space. Thanks KJ EDIT: Thanks Jim, your link to the Vette board answered both of my questions. Jeeeezzzz. Too bad, the guy with the GT3 seemed to be a pretty nice guy.

Oh! the humanity!...Man! my heart sank when I saw that C-GT...My god, what a way to debut the car...feel so bad for that owner, but thumbs up for the guy for not shying away from the track, always better than a garage queen..sheesh. edit: O.K I didn't read the second page...so, the C-GT guy also screwed up....well **** happens.

Chronos "Hey, I wonder if he wants to sell the seats... [/QUOTE]" Man... Thats COLD!... but funny in a dark humor sort of way.

That's not my Yellow car, guys-- looks a lot like it, tho, right down to the wheels and carbon doo-dads. My rollcage is fairly extensive, vs. this guy's--now we know why. Hope he gets it back on the road soon. Lee in D.C. (rubbing good-luck charm,,, )

Man o man, the paper plate also reads 5/20/2005, meaning he had the car for just a few days before the mishap. I would just be... actually I'm at a loss for words. D. Min Tulsa, OK

Some more pic links: http://morespeed.homeip.net/pics/VIR...April2005.html http://www.hpjvids.com/crazycurves/VIR042505/

Hey guys, the GT3 is mine. I turned in early on Turn 10 and pinched the exit. NOT a good combo. I was definitely having a good time before this happened. Anyway, I made a mistake and hopefully I will learn from it. I don't think I was at 11/10ths or even 10/10ths, but I screwed up. I will learn from it. Turn 10 has always been a weak point for me. I was getting more comfortable, then....... __________________

My condolences on the damage... it's a REALLY ****ty way to learn something. Hopefully you'll get it all back together and on the track in no time!

Makes me want to rush right out to the track and F up my car real goooooooooood.

Having done the chief steward thing at VIR, I can tell you some stories about turn 10. Like the day we had a car off on the yellow flag out lap with two instructors in it. That was a pretty funny day. Late, later, latest is the word. Typically it is not actually 10 that bites, it is the result of the esses and 9. Out of shape from the left at the top of the hill will just put you off there. A bit of camber on the track. Hate to see the damage. Who was running the event?

Oh just checked out the other sites. As I originally thought. Too early at the bottom of the esses and you are toast at the top. From the first turn in going up the hill, all of the corners build on the previous one. The car off on the out lap I mentioned above forgot the line, was trying too compensate for not watching. There is another issue, which is getting the esses right the first time carries more speed at the top of the hill which means more braking. Go figure. Must say though if you play on the track you need to be able to fix your mistakes.

Very sorry to hear that Matt. Hope you get her buttoned up real soon.

Thanks TD. I will have her back and running in about 2 weeks. The damage is not as bad as it looks (at least when I say that, it helps me feel a little better).

I'm not sure its being early in the bottom of the esses thats the problem, because you can get back on line or slow down before the end. South Bend is a total guts turn, its very fast and intimidating -- the car gets light over the hill. If you aren't going straight, or you lift, things happen fast. GT3 Nut -- sorry to hear about your incident, good luck with repairs!

Hey, by the way guys, it is cool that there isn't alot of trash talk on this forum, as there is on others. It seems that most here care about fellow enthusiasts. On the vette board everyone had an opinion without having facts. "11/10ths at VIR" is an opinion. Here the guy shows me in pictures stating at what "10th" I'm driving. Whatever. Just because I was going faster than he was comfortable and I made a mistake, does that make me a bad driver? I'm LEARNING. The mistake cost me. Will I make another? YES. I just hope it doesn't cost me next time, or the next, etc. I love to drive at the track. Sometimes I push it a little. I know there is always the possibility of well...(see above). But mind you this: I was having fun - before I screwed up at least. And I will be back out there asap.

Matt, I was sorry to see what happened. I was out with students and never got a chance to speak to you before you left. Glad you're OK and glad to know I'll continue to see you at VIR. Take care man. We all make mistakes. -KJ

Thanks KJ. I just hope they let me back to the Audi Club events.

Yes, it might be best if you stay home.

Hey Matt, I think, for the most part, we have a pretty good group here. I think that Potomac region is outstanding, and I feel lucky to be from this part of the country when it comes to P-cars due to the outstanding people I have met from Dorkiphus and PCA. Whenever I see any wreck, the first thing I think is "But for the grace of God go I . . . " Glad to hear you were not hurt and your car will be relatively easy to fix. Next time we are at the same event, the celebration beer is on me. Now, I am off to Mid-Ohio so I will keep my fingers crossed. I have driven my wife crazy by watching the Mid-Ohio school video about thirty times TD in DC

Matt - glad you weren't hurt and good to know that the car is fixable.

In a couple years, this will be quite a story to reminisce. I salute you for driving your car like it should be driven. I'm glad you weren't hurt.

It's good to see the camaraderie here. I mainly hang out on the Audi boards and there is a very unfriendly post over there aimed at the cgt driver. No one seems to really understand until after they have their first off track excursion. I made one at the Audi Club event back in dec with my green S6. I got her covered up before the vultures had time to snap any pics (I think). GT3nut, I believe you were there, as well. I think we both ended up having a bad weekend then : ( I was hoping to have the S6 ready again for this event, but fate had a different plan. I'll be back on track soon enough though. Andrew

What do we learn from this experience? Lots of guys have spun off on warm up and cool down laps when traction may be surprisingly poor or concentration lapses. This wasn't that. In my very first wheel-to-wheel race (32 years ago), I gridded 12th in a field of about 30 and won the race with passing only 2 cars. Drivers who were clearly quicker by qualifying times either broke or spun in the 20 laos of the race. It is very difficult, and generally unnecessary, to drive at the absolute limit in every turn on every lap. It also takes a great deal of experience in track driving to catch an incipient spin. The key is recognition that you are nearing the edge and responding with Very quick wheel movement and modest throttle manipulation. Both are more difficult than most think, unless you are Juan Pablo. The guys who can do it respond with reflex, not thought. Even Juan Pablo built that reflex by years in karts, not a few track days. I admire the tone on this board. If you do enough laps, you will spin. And if you don't do enough laps, you will spin. There is no point in sounding superior( and I hope I don't). We are amateurs. I think the major lesson is in picking the corners in which we explore the limits. At Elkhart Lake, everybody wants to take the Kink flat, since they know that a mid-corner lift is fatal. But so many cars wreck there, everybody also knows that's a bad point for a mistake, so prudence dictates lift before the corner and enter a little slower. It does cost time but saves a ton of hurt. The corner with huge runnoff areas and no walls is the place to experiment. This is true for any car, and I think true of any driver but those with tons of experience. I'd be interested if our Rennlister agrees. The CGT saga is harder to fathom. That car requires a master to even approach the limits. Any amateur would feel way over his head for many laps. Almost nobody can catch a mid-engined car on street tires that gets even a few degrees sideways, without tons of practice. When I was lucky enough to step up into vintage Can AM, the car was so scary that I don't think I ever exceeded 6/10's in the entire weekend. Even after multiple events, I don't think I surpassed 8/10th's. Success in that type of car is measured by completing the event with the body and mechanicals intact. While it's great to see such cars well-driven, that CGT probably wasn't. The Corvette site shows it being passed by a BMW coupe. The driver was clearly uncomfortable with the car or the track. Skip Barber controls this situation with very low rev limits-like 2500 in any gear. This limits acceleration and top speed. That type of caution is really hard to learn. I guess the real take-home meassage is that the greater the car, the more trepidation is required. My closing point will sound odd. A carbon fiber chassis car is not repairable short of a trip to the factory. If so, the driver's obligation is to not break it. Trundeling around in 3rd gear while passed by BMW coupes is perfectly appropriate. At my one and only trip to Road Atlanta in my old Lola T163, I was passed by a Spitfire during practice. I didn't know the track, didn't have much confidence in myself, and didn't feel bad about it. Cars like the CGT should not be driven quickly on the track by any but the most experienced owner I'd rather see one being driven agonizingly slowly than backed up into a tire wall. I'd love to hear the CGT owner tell us what he learned. AS

Well said

I agree with a lot of what Alexander posted. I'm glad that my local road course (Hallett Motor Racing Circuit, Hallett, OK) has no walls that could likely be hit. I've had 2 off-track excursions there in my GT3 and the worst that happened is that I lost the front plastic chin piece. D. Min Tulsa, OK

Aaah. Turn 10. My instructor warned me about turn 10 first time I was at VIR. Your actually picking up speed through the esses, late/later/later still to set up for blind turn 10, then breath-gas-apex-trackout.. If you miss any part of the rhythm and drop the right side at exit, then stay out rather than come back in. With the right side out, the exit is downhill and the right side slopes down and you're off camber. Better to give up and just slow waay down before coming back in, or even go off to the right altogether where there is a large run-off. With those points in mind, the esses and turn 10 complex was actually a fun place to explore the limits. Glad to see no one was hurt. Spins, errors will happen. That's the nature of the beast. We are all amateurs at the track and are all still learning.

Hey Matt, It's Anton. Sorry about your incident and that I wasn't able to see you after that. I'm glad to hear that the damage wasn't as bad as it looked. Patch it up and see you at the next event!

Excuse my ignorance, I've never been to VIR, but what does the term 11/10th, 8/10th refer to?

Driving a car at 10/10th means driving it *at* its limits. 11/10th is exceeding its limits and 8/10th is just under.

Palting Well said on the turn 10 sequence. The essess being late/later/latest and 10 looking as though it will not bite. Faster up the hill, the faster you get to 10 and the faster.... I remember getting the esses "right" or at least right for me and then realizing I was carrying more speed to 10. Big potential ooops. Drop 2 off right and just continue along in the grass until things seem just a bit more normal. Have seem many a car pulled from just that spot and as you know, when you come to the corner, it just does not seem that intimidating, viewing what looks like miles of run off in front. Remember watching the ALMS cars in the rain. Dyson was actually getting to this corner, left foot braking, and rotating the car right at the 10 apex to point it down the hill. Four of us in the car and none of us said a word watching that happen.

Thanks Viken.

matt i agree with you on the support from the forums here - i had a lot of it when i had my off at SIR in 03' (the car is close to done and was quite a bit more serious than yours). I am still hearing about it at the local porsche events from people who were not even there (good and bad). it happens, especially if you are on track quite a bit. Glad your OK and it was nothing more serious. Turn 10 claimed several cars last time i was at VIR for the fall fling in 04' (i was actually in a rental mustang & a 996) as well as Oaktree. Great track

Heh-heh , the devil of an instructor I had tried to talk me into left foot braking to settle the car and help with the turn-in. Not even my telling him it was my first time at VIR would dissuade him. I finally just said no and he laughed. Should'a just told him I was no Dyson. What you did was the right thing, tho, strshp. Cutting back on the track with any kind of speed and the track characteristics at that point would have spun and slingshot you across the track into the tire barriers backward. Just like what happened to Matt. Sorry, Matt. But sometimes the best way to learn is from someone else's mistakes. Glad to see your car is fixable. Good luck with the repairs. You need to get back on the track!!!

Carrera Mike asked me to check this thread out as he had heard me describe some incidents that damged two GT3s and a 914 at the Zone 2 DE April 1-3. Mike and others, this is not from that weekend. Could someone tell us which weekend and event this was? Thanks.

Sorry for the premature question (see above). Audi event, 4/25. I've had my share of spins (OK, more than my share) in 4 DEs at VIR. Fortunately thay have occurred mostly in areas of adequate runoff and no nearby tire wall. My spins have happened in the spiral (South Course), hogs pen, and exiting Oak Tree. I was seriously warned by all of my instructors about South Bend (turn 10), so I lift after I crest the rise at the end of the rising esses, and tap the brake if I am at all uncomfortable before turning in. From what I heard in the paddock, the two GT3 incidents (4/1-3 Zone 2) happened due to lack of braking, one at the end of the back straight and just went off the end, and the other failed to brake enough at the end of a straight and climbed up the back of a 914. I am thrilled to hear GT3 nut's humble take on this, and that he is going to fix his baby and get back out there. Bravo!!! I am really glad to hear that the three incidents happened independently. One early reponse pointed the blame at the "muscle car". Were they referring to the Mustang or the Carrera GT (which certainly has more muscle)? Lets be careful on the track and with our words. Just because we are the victims of the "anti-Powersh" or "anti-furrin car" prejudices doesn't mean we should display same to the "other" car drivers. There was a very well-sorted mid-80s mustang at the September DE (PCA_FSR) at VIR who kicked *** in the solo group and left many Carreras and Boxsters in his wake. I am glad that there is a diversity of cars at the DEs and that different car clubs allow different makes at their events. I don't mind getting passed by an NSX or a Z06, but, I hate getting passed by that light blue Mini Cooper S from Richmond!!!

Matt, hope to see the car out there soon as possible. I saw the pictures and thought the same thing, it doesn't look too bad. Some suspension damage, but the frame looked pretty good. T10 at VIR ranks very high on my list of "turns I'll never figure out".

Well put Don. As far as my take...I was only relaying info, hoping I was incorrect. I too enjoy seeing diversity out there. The more the merrier IMO. I have seen my share of really fast Mini's. Amazing what these car's can do. Particularly in the hands of an experienced driver. Fun cars. Chad

Manny, Thanks for the positive remarks. See ya soon!

I'm with you Manny! I was working on that turn this weekend as it kills my laptimes at VIR. I just can't click with it unfortunately. See you at Summit in a couple weeks? -KJ

KJ, I've been there twice but it's been a while, which turn 10, Full Course Turn 10 or North Course Turn 10? First picture is the Full Course.

Sorry to hear about your mishap, hope you get it back on the track soon. Don't worry about that guy on the vette board, how the f##k would he know at what 10th you were driving unless he was in the car. There's an old saying about a-holes, there's one for every seat.

Turn 10 on the Full course i believe before oaktree - the short turn 10 is part of the Partiot course (or as we call it the "Inner Course" )

yep. Rob is correct. it was turn 10 on the full course. It's a fast blind left hander and the camber drops away at track out on the exit. My damn self preservation instinct always kicks in up there and I always over brake for that sucker. -KJ

Blind, no not blind, in that all know where it goes, left and down. Seems to jump a lot of folks with the off camber nature, the apparent abundant runoff and the adrenalin from running the snake then the essess. Manny, know some one who wants to share a car at the Sept event? Too far to bring mine from SF.

That's nothing. Pioneer Centers in San Diego sold a CGT to a guy who got rear-ended by a large truck A HALF BLOCK from the dealership as he drove it home. Damage was $250K+ plus by one estimate and Porsche was reportedly flying in some expert on carbon to see if the car could be saved. At least this guy got his to the track.

Visit www.wreckedexotics.com It is schadenfreude central...

BTW... I think the San Diego story got exaggerated... here is the pic http://www.wreckedexotics.com/carrer...0614_001.shtml

I bow down, right on dude.

matt, my condolances..., I have much respect for the gt3 after trying one on the track @ liepzig. Not easy to master (way beyond my capabilities). kudos to you for the attitude and learning on the track. I am going to a parking lot autocross this weekend with my 500 h.p. 993tt and will get my butt kicked by some miatas no doubt--but I will be learning and improving in the pro- cess! cheers marty k

I've only been to VIR once with limited track time but loved every minute of it. One of my favorite tracks. So come clean guys, what sort of times are you running? I got my butt kicked last year by both my co-driver and by Manny. I need to set some higher (lower) goals for this years race. Jim

Get a lumpy old 912 with fresh 04s and T ten is a pussycat. WOT up the hill and slight left foot brake at turn in to set the nose and go. The corner is not early or late as the exit off camber kills the normal "late is safe" factor. If the car feels set and good as you come up on turn out you were too slow through the corner. A slight 4W drift to the right and keep the car is pointing slightly track left as you hook up at the exit point. Don't change your power input until the car loads back up unless you need some throttle steering. I don't get to TS as I am WOT in turn and TTO would realy suck. (The above is for a low power sticky tire reac, please don't try this and sue me) It is the "extra" two cyls that are getting you guys in trouble. I wll gladly take them off you hands and set you up with a nice safe (read boring) pushrod 4. Kidding aside. My condolences on the car. Glad you will be back up and running soon and have a good mind set on things.

Hollywood, are you telling me that you can get that 912 to drift? In a turn?!! While on the track?

Matt, I sure hope the "other forum" people going off on you and the other drivers involved here don't track their cars! Karma is a bitch, and if there's one sure saying in racing (understanding that this was an HPDE, but hey, track time is track time) it's "there are two types of drivers, those who have hit the wall, and those who will" (well, maybe "the way to make a small fortune in racing is to start with a large one" is true too ) The important thing is to learn from your mistakes, and it sounds like your attitude toward this is very healthy. Hang in there, and get back out there and apply your new knowledge! I have noticed that the best drivers I've raced against are always more interested in what caused an incident than the results of the incident and where to apply blame. Maybe there's a lesson there...... EDIT: Oh, and when did it become cool to take damage pics at the track (and post up on the internet no less).....I thought the tradition was pretty much that doing so was not encouraged.....

i was involved in a rather freaky track incident few years back. no, the car wasn't as beautiful as the gt3 on this thread, but right after the incident some f'er came up to take pix and then proceed to ask, " since you aren't driving, can i borrow your hot lap timer...." i kid you not!!! if my friends were there, i would have ran him over with my semi disabled carnage. like SRL said, if we track enough sooner or later we will kiss a wall or a tree .... the key is to learn from our and others mistake rather than blame or speculate.

I have seen people wander around the paddock taking pictures of damaged cars and wondered how they could do that also. If someone took a picutre of my car after a mishap I would probably chase their *** down and break the camera....or at least tell them to f off.