Hood damaged by Cement Company

They are patching our street, and my baby was parked on the corner. I watched as cement truck after truck barreled down the street, just KNOWING something would happen. Sure enough, when I went out to run an errand, found a half-dollar size splot of cement baked onto the hood (dried and chunky). Without touching the car, I immediately went to find the foreman, and brought him over to show him the situation. I took pictures of the car with the splatter, including the foreman standing right next to it. He asked if I had a hose, and we gently proceeded to "wash" the spot off. It came off, but brought a bit of paint/clearcoat with it...as feared. I tried waxing over the spot, but to no avail. There is a distinct discoloration where the cement was baked on. The foreman explained that the cement crew is a separate company whom he subcontracted, but gave me their information and instructed I call them tomorrow. He also said he spoke with the driver of the truck, and he ADMITTED knowing he dropped a little bit. So I've got the foreman (and apparently the truck driver too) supporting my story, as well as several photos. My question to the board is, what is the best way to proceed from here? I will settle for no less than a repaint, and don't want to be ignored or brushed aside with "money for a wash and wax job". Any advice on how to handle this call tomorrow would be appreciated. Thanks

Doesn't help you now, but if you knew it was going to happen, then moving the car would have been the best course of action. I'm of the philosophy that what can be screwed up will be screwed up. Talk with your local Porsche body shop and see what it will take to make it right. Get a written quote, then get the cement company to pay it.

DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. Contact the cement company and ask for a repair. BE SURE TO DOCUMENT EVERY CONVERSATION, and moment. That is key to a proper fix. C.

Police report should be filed first. If you have the company name and or plate number it will be a big help. Your insurance company may also help you once a police report is filed. Cement is easy to remove from paint anyway.

Assuming the road is a public street the Owner of the project is the City (or County). The City hired the Contractor. The Contractor hired the foreman, he is an employee of the Contractor most likely. The concrete company is a subcontractor to the Contractor. The Owner would have required the Contractor to provide insurance to protect the City from claims. The claim is one of personal property I would think. I would focus my attention on the City, the Owner for the project...start at the top.

I agree with 1999. Get a police report then ask your insurance co. what your options are. Since it is not your fault, you can make a claim through your insurance co. and then they will go after the cement co. insurance co. for reimbursement. I am dealing with this now since my wife got rearended by a SUV. $5K worth of damage to our BMW. It sucks but I am glad we have a good ins. co.

Every business have what so call liability insurance, when there is any damage from their work the insurance company takes over any issues. If these were legit companies then they should have liability insurance, but the person you should go after would be the construction company that's in charge of the project. If possible ask the foreman for their liability insurance company's name and the foreman's name who can confirm the incidence and give the insurance company a call. Start from there.

A police report? For what? As far as I can tell no laws were broken, no crime was comitted. Call your insurance company, they'll pay to fix it and subrogate against the party at fault. End of story.

+1 about subrogation, that's what you insurance company for!

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+1...some Porsche owner whining about his car getting some cement splatter isn't going to be a real high priority for the cops anyway.

Personally I'd go to the contractor for the ready mix truck (it's not a cement truck). It's easier for them to pay out of pocket than deal with insurance. If they are big enough they might even be self insured. I wouldn't contact your insurance company. Do you really need a ding on the car that you filed a claim on it? Contact the contractor. Tell him who knows about it and go from there. Starting at the top would be a huge pain in the ***.

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If you don't know the law, I guess you wouldn't think to file a report. However, property damage should always be reported to the police if you expect to try to collect for damages. Many insurance companies won't even talk to you about collecting from a third party without one. I suspect you would call the police if the truck you're following on the highway dropped a big rock out if it's bed and the rock went through your radiator. There is no difference in this case. Filing a police report does not translate into charges being filed, but it provides for a nice legal description of what ocurred and if the other party is known, requires a written response from them.

I would jump into the fray but since this is a Porsche board there are obviously many attorneys here who have been in the game for much longer than me and as such can give you better advice. Best of luck in getting your hood resprayed.

Deleted

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Ummm......sorry to ask the absolutely totally obvious, but if you knew that why wouldn't you just go and move it rather than think about legal action after the event?

I parked it where I did (well out of my way) because I thought it was the safest area possible. Obviously I wouldn't intentionally leave it in a dangerous spot. The spots more convenient were even more trafficked by the trucks, so I avoided them. The problem occurred when the trucks changed their route after they were finished...detouring right past my car. The ironic thing is, had I NOT been so paranoid and simply parked in the "convenient" spots...this probably would have been avoided. Lesson learned: You CAN be too careful!

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Yup, that's my sentiment also. If you care about something, then don't sit there and watch it get screwed up. That is just bizarre. You sat and watched it happen rather than going and picking up your keys and moving it. I then read your comments about wanting to turn your car into a track car and pocket the check and I shake my head even more. If you care about getting the money, then it should be to fix your car, not to pocket and use for track expenses, that just seems a little shallow to me considering that the entire incident was avoidable and (in your own words) you watched KNOWING it was going to happen. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time understanding the way that you're operating. I'll copy your previous note back into the thread because I see that you deleted it after posting and some will not know where I got the comments about you wanting to turn your car into a track car from. "jlb532 has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - **UPDATED**Hood damaged by Cement Company--Legal Advice? - in the 996 Forum forum of Rennlist Discussion Forums. This thread is located at: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...2&goto=newpost Here is the message that has just been posted: *************** **UPDATE** Thank you all for your advice thus far. Just spoke with the contractor, and they "sound", at least off the bat...to be cooperative. They advised me to get them estimates, and then they will cut a check in my name and the shop's name (to perform the work). Legal guys-my question now is: Is there any way around having to sign the check over to the shop? In other words, if I decide to turn this into a track car (which I'd been considering), and would like to pocket the money for track time...how can I go about doing so if the shop's name is on the check as well? ***************"

test

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+ + + You car was splattered with fresh concrete, not cement. Cement is a dry grey very fine powder which is mixed with sand, gravel, and water to make concrete. Fresh concrete is usually delivered as ready-mix in the big trucks that rumbled down your street and splattered your car. After fresh concrete is placed and then finished, it is left to cure and after a few days it will usually have hydrated enough to be put into light service, depending on the application. At that point it is called hardened concrete. After 28 days the curing process will normally be considered as done, but in reality the concrete will continue to harden for years to come. Repeat - Cement is a dry dusty powder. You car was not splattered with cement.

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What surprises me about this is that fresh concrete has little adhesive or cohesive strength - it is readily washed away by water. I'm amazed that the stuff that was in contact with the paintwork could actually leave a mark, nevermind remove clearcoat after such a short contact duration. Removing clearcoat is a tough thing to do, so this one really surprises me.

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No, actually I didn't call the police when my windshield was broken by gravel from a gravel truck. Why would I? At least here in California, the police have better things to do with their time. If I called the dispatcher with this story, I'd be laughed at. I got the company name and license number from the truck and called my insurance company. They paid for a new windshield. Maybe they went after the trucking company, I don't know nor do I care.

Dell, I mean Wayne A new Sheriff is in town, haha

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I don't mean to be be mean, but honestly at best this behavior shows a lack of common sense and at worst smells of someone scamming the concrete company to divert a payout to finance a pre-planned track car. Dell and I share a common trait of calling it as we see it and I just smell a fish. I find the story and the behavior hard to fathom. I've had concrete on paintwork and it has washed off without an incident, so for the life of me I cannot figure out how it could remove clearcoat when it had been there for so little time. Even if it had dried on for a significant amount of time it shouldn't do that kind of damage.

Very much true.

I agree, just buff it out and carry on your merry way.

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Gotta agree. There's no way that fresh concrete removed clearcoat on freshly waxed bodywork - it just doesn't add up. Pay some attention to gently washing and applying fresh wax and I'm betting all is well.... other than the track subsidy that he was so obviously seeking to put in his pocket.

I appreciate your selective detective work, really. Not that I feel obligated to defend myself, but I fear my reputation is being unfairly soiled, and I don't appreciate that. The post from last week that you referenced was mine, yes. However, it involved a separate incident altogether on the lower panels/splash guards. Fortunately, that DID wash off. The incident from this week was more serious, and as I stated in a post you chose not to spell out for everyone, I HAD taken precautions to avoid the trucks-parking in an area that seemed safe. When I saw the trucks had changed their route later in the day, I went outside and found the damage. The DRIVER OF THE TRUCK ADMITTED TO DRIPPING THE CEMENT. Run any conspiracy theories you like, but those are the facts. What I chose to do with the money rightly owed me for the damage to my property is my business. If it helps you sleep at night, after discussing briefly with Tippy, any money will be applied to a detail attempt. No more, no less. Whatever is required to removing that spot.

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i) I was not attacking you, but pointing out inconsistencies and things that just didn't make sense in your story. ii) There was nothing selective about my citations. Why do I need to reference a post in this thread? - people can read. I referenced the other thread because it was relevant to the story and others might not have seen it. Honestly, if you story is true, then I feel sorry for your car. The truth is that you could have totally prevented the incident altogether by being smart and moving your car when you saw that it was in the line of fire. For knowingly leaving the car in the line of fire when you saw the trucks going by you lost my sympathy. As you said, a good detail job should fix the mark. At worst you dig out a bottle of Mother's scratch remover and gently polish the area. Wash and reapply wax and all is well. I strongly doubt that actual clearcoat/paint was removed (as you stated) and a little bit of TLC should put everything right. Good luck with that and be more attentive in future.

No sweat Wellard, and thank you for toning it down a notch. It was pretty rough dealing with this headache at home, and then being insulted/doubted by my brethren on here! As I mentioned, I put the car where I thought it would be safe...perhaps by using the word "knowing" in my first post I caused some confusion. I was saying it more in the "knowing it will happen to me with my luck" sense...not literally that I "knew" it would be damaged. When I left, the car was secure and out of the way of the numerous trucks. I couldn't physically sit out there and watch them work all day long, so I couldn't know precisely when they altered their route. I checked from time to time, and when I noticed they were closer to my location, I went to move it...but it was too late. Fingers crossed that a thorough detail will get this back to the way it was. I was surprised as well that the fairly fresh wax didn't provide better protection, but that's what I get for using Turtle Wax I suppose. Sitting in direct sunlight didn't help matters either. Anyway, thanks all for the advice and help. Here's hoping this has a happy ending.

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I hope it's a happy ending also, as I hate to see nice cars get damaged - I feel for you there. I meant my first comment in that my experience has taught me that whatever can get screwed up will - if you see a situation like that it's best to get the hell out of there quickly, as damage will happen. I will say through that you shouldn't be using Turtle Wax on your car and that might be part of the problem - get a better wax as that stuff is junk. It provides little protection and does little more than loading up your clearcoat with silicones. I don't even use that stuff on my wife's Honda anymore. You will find lots of recommendations around here for detailing products. I personally use Mother's Carnuba Wax. If you read this thread here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/420219-spring-detailing-first-time-wielding-a-clay-bar.html You will find that cdodkin posted his experiences (including photos and video) of some Ultima products that do an amazing job of shining and protecting paintwork. Believe me, we all love making our cars look nice and there are no end of good products that will help keep your paintwork in shape. Start with this on the mark http://www.amazon.com/MOTHERS-Califo...1505706&sr=8-2 and that should fix the job - be VERY gentle and do not hurry. You can do more harm than good if you're not careful. Good luck!

Wow, great links. Thanks!

Here is another... https://rennlist.com/members.htm

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That was also one of the best recommendations I received when I started lurking around here.

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You're welcome.

[QUOTE=jlb532;5438758]... The DRIVER OF THE TRUCK ADMITTED TO DRIPPING THE CEMENT. ...QUOTE] CONCRETE

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[QUOTE=jasper;5439456] No!!!!!!! Ready mix.... Concrete is what it is when it is in place and set!!!! If you want to great REALLY technical. But you are right that it is definitely not cement. This is one of the Man laws about knowing the difference. #782 adopted in 1978.

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A windshield is different. Most insurance companies, even in Kalifornia unless things have changed since I was there, require a police report for a claim involving any significant damage. It is a paperwork issue, sometimes able to be obtained without the police even being there, and is not the same as calling the police on someone. No one would laugh at you for asking for a police report for damage caused by construction.

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I have to disagree with you on that point. An old man struck the front of my 996 at a gas station about a year ago, causing a 3/4" scratch on the front bumper. I got an estimate to fix it from the local Porsche dealer, turned it into his insurance company, and pocketed the $600 check without fixing the damage. I don't think it's remotely unethical to use the money I receive from someone damaging my property to do with what I like. I didn't feel bad about wasting the dealer's time as up to that point, I had gotten all of my work done there--including a new engine less than six months prior.

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We all have different ways of operating. I'm a straight-up kinda guy. I say what I do and do what I say. To do otherwise is against my code of ethics.

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No quibbling with your code of ethics .... just with your logic. I believe that, in accepting money for damages, there is absolutely no implication that one is going to spend that money on repairing said damages. In my code of ethics, if my Porsche is harmed by someone else's negligence, then I am due compensation for the reduced value that results. What I do with that compensation .... spend it to fix my car, or save it and accept the state of reduced value .... is legally and ethically my option. In accepting an insurance settlement, one only agrees that such settlement is sufficient compensation. One does not commit to any specific course of action with that money.

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I cannot argue with your comments. It's just a matter of personal style/methodology. I expressed my code of conduct, there's no logic involved. To me it's not about money or retribution, it's about putting right damage. If I didn't care about the damage, then I wouldn't go through the hassle of collecting the money. If something is easily fixed for next to no money, then why should I care about the money? In this particular case it appears that the damage is easily fixed with a $6 bottle of scratch remover and a little wax - personally I'd make sure that the negligent driver got torn a new one, then I'd just get out my detailing kit and fix it myself. Money is not a necessary component to the transaction. Honestly, for the hassle and grief involved the money is worth nothing to me. My time is worth way more than I'd recoup. It's all about righting a wrong/fixing damage - To me, that's all that matters.

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With no intent to insult you personally, that sounds simplistic to me .... as if all such transactions occur under the same black and white set of circumstances. For example: years ago when I was in southeast Asia for the unpleasantness there, I bought my wife a beautiful ring. Upon return to the states, we had it appraised and insured accordingly. Fast forward several years: I've left the service and am struggling to feed my family while waiting for an airline to hire me. The ring disappears one day, and is covered by my insurance policy for replacement value. A big check comes in the mail, and where does it go? Certainly not to buy a ring, but to buy groceries, and pay off the obstetrician's bill. Was it "worth the hassle" of collecting the money? You better believe it. Did we use the money to "put right" the loss? Not on your life. It was our money, and we used it for the things that were a priority in our life at that moment. No "retribution" .... just spending money rightfully ours on the things important to us. I would have made exactly the same decision had the money come from someone dropping ready mix on the old beater Volvo we drove at the time, assuming it remained driveable. If your life has always been so uncomplicated as not to be faced with such decisions, I am happy for you. Not many are so fortunate.

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Your example was a totally irrelevant to the discussion. My comments were directed solely towards the circumstances where a 3rd party inflicts damage upon your property. Not all cases are the same, but the principle is. Please do not read more into my words than is intended and do not twist them to suit your own mindset.

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Wait, where is this going, hehe

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[QUOTE=Eharrison;5439671] From where I sit it's fresh concrete before it's set and hardened concrete after. Ready-mix is a special albeit common form of fresh concrete. Look at it this way, say you were living next door to the OP, and you were mixing up some concrete in your mixer at home so you could build a garage. Then lets say you had one too many beers and ended up splashing your neighbours hood while you were tipping your mix into your forms. The next day you wouldn't be apologizing for getting ready-mix on his car would you? Ready Mix is so-called because it comes delivered to the work site ready to place. Yes, I agree that it was ready-mixed concrete on his car, but it was concrete first, and Ready Mix second. edit: and yes - any self respecting male should know the difference between cement and concrete.

Ready-crete sets in about 1-3 hours from the times I have used it. I believe they recommend 24 hrs for full strength.

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As another post mentioned, concrete actually takes years to set fully - it's a quite remarkable composite.

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85% strength after 28 days. But you are correct it takes a long time to set. They say hoover damn is still curing now.

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[QUOTE=jasper;5441311] Other way around, ready mix was spilled, concrete was what "peeled" (how I don't know) the paint off.

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[QUOTE=Eharrison;5441806] I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I mean that ready mix is a type of concrete...but all concrete is not ready mix. Ready mix is concrete which is delivered to a build site "ready" to place, as in the case at hand, but not all concrete is ready mix. All concrete is however concrete, even before it's hardened (or hydrated to be more exact).....unless you're talking about mortars.

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Yup, exactly.

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You're implying that I'm not a straight-up kind of guy because I expect someone that causes me $600 of property damage to reimburse me for the diminished value of my vehicle? Put very simply, if someone doesn't want me to collect $600 from their insurance and spend it the way I choose to, I'd recommend that they don't hit my Porsche.

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You're twisting my words and missing the point. I implied nothing. I made personal statements and said nothing about you.

I like how a thread on what approach to take on getting a paint repair on a car has now spurned two tangents, one on ethics and morals and the other on definition of ready mix and concrete. And Jasper I'm going in the same direction as you I'm just a block over. Ready mix is to dough as concrete is to cake. That's my final answer.

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You're a fun guy with whom to attempt a discussion. I can't decide whether you choose your words very carefully so as to intentionally constitute insult .... or you simply lack sufficient command of civil discourse to avoid inadvertent offense. Either way, you can have the field to yourself.

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Your words didn't require any twisting and I think any reasonable person would have inferred the same thing I did. In any case, the thought has never even crossed my mind that using money owed to me in whatever manner I like is inappropriate in the slightest way. That said, Kim's ring analogy seemed spot-on to me...if the topic intrigues me enough, I think a simple poll would clarify the average guy's feelings on the topic.

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Wouldn't you have to know what your policy says to know if just keeping the money is morally right? I mean, if the policy says they will repair the car, or provide money to have the car repaired, rather than reimburse you for the loss, then contractually, are you not obligated to spend the money only for the repair of the car? Isn't that why the insurance companies write the check out in both names in the first place?

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If somebody hits my car, my insurance company doesn't have anything to do with it, and their insurance company isn't in a position to tell me what to do with the money they owe me. See above. We're not talking about me turning in damage to my own company. That sometimes IS dictated by your policy's language.

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True enough. I forget sometimes that no-fault states are different. In your case, it would depend on the wording of the endorsement of the check, but the concept is still the same.

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Fact is that the real thread going on around us bores me - I'd rather talk about cement and concrete. I make cement for a living. I'm the operations manager for the Castle Cement Padeswood Works in Wales UK at the moment. For the last ten years I worked for Lehigh as quality and process manager. Portland Cement is my specialty but you can't help but pick up some concrete knowledge along the way. For those of ou still fuzzy on the difference, Eharrison's dough and cake analogy is sound. Being a cement man I would add that cement is to readymix as flour is to dough. I still maintain that fresh concrete is the more correct term to describe the material on the OP's hood. Yes, it was ready mix but all concrete in it's plastic stae is not necessarily ready mix. We do agree though...let's leave it at that. Too bad about buddy's car there. Should buff right out.

Jasper PM sent.