RMS leak number 2!

Noticed oil leak in garage after track day. Pretty sure it is the dreaded RMS. 1st time it happened was also after a track day. I do push on the track, but I am sensible, what to do? No more track days? I don't think so. 1st time dealer fixed it and assured that everyhing was within tolerance. Should I start moaning for a new engine?

Should I start moaning for a new engine? Unfortunately no one gets a new engine because of an RMS leak. At best you will get a rebuilt engine.

To start with you could start displaying this.... http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/rmsclubfailed2.jpg

I think it has to occur three times until you get a rebuilt motor. BTW ,I had my car in for service on Monday at the dealer and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either. I don't think running your car at the track had jack to do with the RMS failure, but I wouldn't mention it though. Good luck.

This would be the first report I have seen of a 997 with a rear seal leak. According to the parts list it uses the same seal used on the Cayenne. It will be interesting to see how this developes now that the 997s are out. I will not hold my breath for the 987. From reading the message boards for over 5 years and talking to the mechanics I know, 3 seals was the rule of thumb. I have seen some recent reports and one of our local Boxster owners had to go through 4 seals before a replacement engine was oked. From what one of mechanics told me at my local dealer Atlanta is more interested in the numbers from when they measure the crank in 4 places to see how far off-center it is. And my local Boxster friend Jean did get a new engine for his 2000. Finally, after the 3 rebuilts that were put in had a vibration problem.

I wonder if the general rule on 3 seals and you get a rebuilt engine has to do with states' lemon laws. Most states allow a manufacturer 3 or 4 attempts to fix a problem. If the final fix is not adequate, the buyer can compel the manufacturer to repurchase the car. Obviously, replacing the RMS is cheaper than either putting a new (rebuilt) engine in or buying back the car. From a cost perspective, Porsche is just trying to see how cheaply they can try to fix the problem before having to replace the engine or god forbid take back a lemon. Can't blame them, but it doesn't obviate the fact that an owner of a car with repeated RMS failures is very frustrated.

Tool Pants, I'll see what I can sniff out about that 997S, I was shocked too, thought they fixed the problem!

With Jean our lemon law did not apply because the car was 4 years old. I will have to ask the mechanics what the current rule of thumb policy is. After the second rebuilt was put in the service advisor told Jean engine replacement number 3 would be a new one, but what Atlanta delivered was another rebuilt, and Jean was not happy. The service advisor then told Jean that Porsche no longer made new engines for a 2000 2.7 manual transmission, and that is why another rebuilt was sent. No clue if this is true or not. As I said, the 4th engine was new, but it was for a tiptronic but Peter at my dealer rewired it for a manual transmission car. At some point Porsche is going to stop making new engines for the older cars if they have not already done so. I have always thought Porsche reserved the new engines for the newer cars. If your 3 month old car needed a replacement engine and your dealer told you you were going to get a rebuilt, you would not be happy. But if your car is a few years old.....

If the 997 is still at your dealer write down the VIN and PM it to me. I will see if I can get someone to run it throught the computer to see what warranty work was done.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Porsche is sitting on top of a potential powder keg and all that is needed is the spark of a class action lawsuit to set this whole mess off. Right now, IMHO, they are just playing the numbers and so far they are coming out ahead. Jim

Some good news, at least forme, on my RMS. Moved from DC to SF recently. Took the car to Sonnen for a 45k check up and asked them to look at the RMS. Guess what? Leaking!! Go figure. Good news, since I had a new tranny (another story there) put in less than 2 years ago, the RMS was covered under that warranty. And the good news just keeps on coming. Seems that the new RMS is warrantied for two more years. Seems like a perpetual free fix.

So let's start a class action lawsuit..........for all Porsche owners, those that have had an RMS leak and those with potential RMS leaks. I am all for it and would be willing to put some funds forward with others to get this resloved once and for all. I have the legal association that can get this started and I have already mentioned this to a firm, who shall at this point remain nameless. Perhaps we should start a poll to see how many would put some money into a pool for this? Certainly, the lawsuit would be best in the US given the larger market and the larger impact it would have vs. something like this being started in Canada. I think the action alone would require a response from Porsche. Don't forget this is a publicly traded company and shareholders will not take kindly to any action, especially those that could certainly deter future sales and name brand. I have never had a problem with my car, but this doesn't mean that I sleep well at night knowing that this problem could happen at anytime. I feel for those who purchased vehicles with hard working dollars and have had this problem. Like I have mentioned many times........lets stop talking and take some action. Any lawyers on this site.........what do you folks think????? Something to consider. Cheers and safe driving.

I think you know it's a given i'm all in for this.. i'd love to get back some of the $33,000 i've put in my car in the past 1000 miles due to their flawed engines, which also include the rms issue.. which they refuse to acknowledge as being an issue.. :>

Worm, Bob, the rest...I say, get some facts, find a lawyer (preferrably a Porschphile) and move forward. I am sure once the word goes out, the snowball effect will be ENORMOUS!!! Chad

dubai: I had four leaks this year. I do track often and the dealer could care less. The car is built for the track. It is an issue of the casings if the car is a multiple leaker. Keep a close eye , be nice to your techs and get them to help with Porsche. Unless the casings are way out of spec. it will take a coulpe more leaks. Good luck. By the way my rebuilt motor is great.

What you need to do is to stop talking about a class action lawsuit and start complaining to the FTC in the USA. Unfortunately, Porsche will do exactly what they did with major engine problems on previous model 911s (i.e. as little as possible) unless forced. The only real fix will cost Porsche a fortune so your only real hope is to convince the government to force a fix/replacement. Everyone that has had a failed RMS needs to contact the FTC (USA Federal Trade Commision) and fill out their complaint form . Just like the Office of Defects Invegation at the DOT/NHTSA and the Emissions Warranty people at the EPA, all you need is for one (1) person to complain for the FTC to open an official inquiry. Although the more people that complain the more serious the issue becomes.

The FTC won't do anything.. the government in this country is all a business anyways.. the last thing they want to do is disrupt the economy or prevent people from buying, especially cars like these... especially with all the money and tax dollars that porsche and porsche dealerships bring to the economy... (think about how much tax money the government makes on porsche car sales and service alone.. that's a nice amount of money... probably helping to pay for brenda and her 7 kids or paying for the war... but that's another issue..) and if they do, it will take a long time.. a class action lawsuit, can be swift and easily done... once filed, and brought to the media attention, the discovery will show it all.. and be their downfall... although it will take months of porsche denying discovery requests, saying they are irrelevant, eventually they will have to come forward with all relevant paperwork if compelled to by a judge... and that will sink their ship... I have been wondering... if Porsche is familiar, knows that their engines are indeed faulty and do indeed cause RMS, internal failuires, etc.. (which they are very hush hush about) and keep releasing the exact same product over and over again... putting the customer in harms way (keep in mind, when one's engine blows on them on the street or freeway for no apparent reason, this can indeed become a safety hazard..) and also causing the customer to have to pay out of their own pocket to replace the problem which they are not at fault for, isn't that consumer fraud? It's been 7 years now, they know what's going on.. and what do they do, instead of trying to rectify the problem of the 996 owners? release the 997, with the exact same problematic engine... lawyers, where are you? i thought a porsche was the #1 car for a lawyer to have? The fact is, nobody really knows if the RMS correlates at all to the engine failuires, or what is going on.. but anyone that's concerned or worried about having to shell out $15,000 for a replacement engine, i'm sure would love to sleep at night knowing porsche will replace the engine free of charge if something goes wrong with it... if they replace the engine after 3 RMS leaks, that should say something... they know the engine is bad/out of spec/etc... they just wont' say it... athough once out of warranty... one is pretty much screwed, and has to pay either way... i hire lawyers for all my business dealings, so am not to familiar with the law when it comes to consumer fraud, just familiar with the lawsuits i've been in... it'd be nice to hear what can be done from a lawyer's perspective..

WRONG!!!! I got a new engine for replacement after my RMS issues.

If nobody files a complaint then your right the FTC won't do anything and so far nobody has filed a complaint. Up until two weeks ago nobody had filed an official complaint with the EPA for the SAI emissions warranty problems that 993 owners have experienced for the past five (5) years. Someone finally did and now they have opened a case. The FTC handles all automotive non-safety and non-emissions related problems. If an RMS leaks and someone is indirectly or directly injured than the DOT/NHTSA will look into it but up until then the FTC are the only people that can/will do anything. Filing a complaint does not cost you anything more than five minutes of your time, a class action lawsuit will take two years minimum and the lawyers will benefit more than those affected. So far nobody has done anything but complain on an online bulletin board, so why not take those complaints to someone that has the power to do something? If they are unable to do anything then go ahead and spend 6 months huffing and puffing about hiring a lawyer (people have been claiming to do this for two years now but so far I haven't seen anything show up in PACER). You have nothing to lose contacting the FTC and you've already paid them for the service... People need to stop hoping Porsche will come around and do what is right. PCNA is a business and so far the only 100% fix will cost them a HUGE fortune which is something they will fight tooth and nail against like they have with previous models. Once the warranty period for the last 996 sold is over they might publicize the real problem.

POST OF THE YEAR!!! (IMHO) Yep Jason there will be lots of talk here...never any action. Well said

Are you absolutely certain it's a new engine? I was looking at an '02 C4S last summer and the Dealer assured me that the car had a "new" engine because of an RMS leak. Well, I had the Used Car Sales Manager check with the Service department and a few minutes later the guy told me that I was right and that the engine was rebuilt. My understanding is that the process goes something like this: Engines that have chronic RMS issues are sent to Germany where they are rebuilt. Rebuilt engines are sent back to the US where they are used to replace engines that have chronic RMS leaks. Fortunately I have no first hand knowledge of this problem. The explanation I'm posting came from a neighbor who unfortunately did have his engine replaced because of an RMS leak. If you were able to get a "new" engine, I'm sure many of the readers of this Board would like to know how you accomplished this because it's not the norm.

a brand new engine costs $22,000 for the part alone.. 3 times the cost of the remanufactured one.. i seriously doubt you got a new one... don't all these rebuilts make people wonder... where in the hell are they getting all these "rebuilt" engines? they are from the thousands of porsche owners having them have their engine fail on them... that should speak for itself... rebuilt engines are faulty engines, which porsche seems to have an endless supply of available.. last time i checked with my dealership, the ontario, california warehouse had hundreds of them waiting to be installed... not counting the thousands of remanufactured engines already replaced..

I am on several Boxster boards, and there has been a few times when someone reported they were told by their service advisor that they were getting a 'new' engine. I then ask for the part number from the repair invoice and it turns out to be a rebuilt. It is easy to tell. If the part number of the engine ends with the letter X it is a rebuilt. The box it comes in also says 'exchange.' I guess you can have a new new engine or a new rebuilt engine. In Jean's example, he was told by the service advisor engine number 3 would be new. He went to look at his car as they were finishing the install and the box the engine came in was still next to his car, as that box is used to ship the old engine back. He emailed me the part number and it was a rebuilt. When he told this to the service advisor he was told they did not have any new engines for his car, so Atlanta sent another rebuilt. Jean thinks he was given the new engine story to make him happy. Jean never got to drive his car with replacement engine number 3. The mechanic did a test drive and there was the vibration issue that replacement #1 and #2 had. So engine #4 was ordered. When Jean was told it had arrived we went down to the shop and took a picture of the box to verify it was new, and it was. I guess Jean's original and the 3 replacement engines are in the recycle chain.

Hmmmmmmmmm Recycle until warranty is over then, F**k off. Hmmmm ..

I am looking into this wilth legal counsel on Friday evening. Will keep you all informed. That's enough..........!!!!! Cheers and safe driving.

Some at Rennteam have accused you of "speculating" re: your comment: "and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either." Could you tell us how you came to learn of the RMS failure diagnosis on the 997S? Service advisor, sales dept, etc? FWIW, I doubt seriously you just pulled this out of your butt.

No he didn't pull it out of his butt, the service manager mentioned it to him but hear say does not confirm it yet, we are hoping he can get more info on it if its posible since I doubt they (dealer) will be very cooperative: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...2&page=1&pp=15

Let me tell you the problem that you are going to have with a lawsuit. You are going to need have an engine expert who is qualified to testify to the problem. And this is not someone who knows a lot about the problem. You will need a true engine expert who can be qualified under cross examination. The only individuals who probably meet this criteria are most probably working as Porsche mechanics and are not going to testify against Porsche. They could probably forget about working for a Porsche dealership if they testified. Sort of a catch-22. There are also the "Bruce Andersons" of the world who probably have the expertise, but the liklihood of getting one of them to testify is probably zero. They would then be on the Porsche sh*t list for life. Therein lies the problem with trying to put together a class action lawsuit......

HHmmmmmmmmm.. Sounds like a medical malpractice scenario...

I think you just hit this one on the head there cll acab.

Ever heard of a witness subpoena? You can force a porsche merchanic to testify under the law with a court order subpoena once authorized by the judge as being relevant to the case, which it is. That's even if the case reaches trial. Once porsche realizes they are forced to disclose discovery, that will be their downfall, and they will most likely offer a nice settlement agreement to avoid future litigation damage.

Guys! See my reply on the 997 board, it's just what the service guy mentioned to me, later he said it was fixed, I didn't/won't persue it any more. I don't really care if all the 997's RMS fail or none do. As long as my car is ok, that's enough for me. Take it for what it is, hearsay from a guy on line. Believe it, don't, I don't care. If anybody was speculating it was the guy at the dealer. Do me a favor and pass it on to the rennteam guys so they stop pm'ing me about this! Next time I come across some info, I'm keeping it to myself.