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YOUR RESEARCH996/997 Prices Hit New Low
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sheer volume of 996s
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One reason is due to the sheer volume of 996s that were imported as lease vehicles.
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FWIW, I was just checking autotrader for something unrelated and decided to do a search for '99-04 996 non-turbo models and noticed roughly over 700 for sale.
Leading evidence: 'sheer volume of 996s' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'sheer volume of 996s' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check autotrader' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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I'm convinced majority of used buyers spend hours researching their purchase.
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Really, a lot of us knew going into this for the ones that bought used, got it for a great deal.
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Check autotrader
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FWIW, I was just checking autotrader for something unrelated and decided to do a search for '99-04 996 non-turbo models and noticed roughly over 700 for sale.
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He said that he had been searching for a clean blue C4, full natural brown leather that hadn't been molested for over a year, and that this is the car he wanted in the budget he had.
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This is good and bad news. I was considering a newer 911 and started checking prices again. I was surprised that the latest Porsche lawsuit caused this much of a price drop. Good news is I can afford a much newer 911, the bad; my 2003 C4S is now junk bond status. For example:
Porsche dealer list price
2006 C4 low mileage $39,000
2003 C2 low mileage $25,000
Sucks for some of us but great news for others.
There has never been a better time to buy, I just picked up a 04 TT with 36,000 miles for 53K and the original MSRP was 162K. Real estate has turned and the car market will follow soon, get shopping if you are serious.
Dan
KK - what numbers are you quoting? According to the KBB site my car is worth as much today as I paid for it 3 years and 25k miles ago.
Anyone have a Black Book?
KK I don't think just pulling 2 cars out of the blue means the whole market has dropped. Many different factors can make certain cars lower than market. I have been looking at 997s very closely for the past 6 months and have not seen a drastic drop in prices since the lawsuit. Mostly just normal depreciation.
You can use theirs at link below. You will get an immediate value via email. To turn things around on them, I have also used it to check the price of the cars they have listed. They seem like friendly folks. I almost bought an 05 CS from them.
It's unfortunate that the lawsuit settlement does so little for owners. Only covers 01-05. Unless your car has already grenaded, it rules out most 01-03s (ten year limit). It does nothing for 99-00 or 05-forward. And it draws more attention to the risk that a $20 part (guessing at Porsche's cost) can destroy your engine at any moment. If it were a more prevalent car (a Camry, say), this would have been solved long ago. But since it's a niche, rich-guy car brand, well, caveat emptor.
I agree with the notion that the settlement (quite typically) benefits Porsche and plaintiffs' lawyers far more than plaintiffs.
It's ludicrous to even speculate that the news of the class action suit has already caused prices to drop. The majority of people looking for a Pcar today don't know about the IMS issue and even less know about the lawsuit. That includes non Porsche used car dealers.
Remember that the failure rate for IMS is still very low, but I would guess that many dealers lump other failures into this category due to an incorrect diagnosis or as a way to fleece a consumer. The suit will require a dealer to prove the failure was IMS related to get PCNA to pay out, which may actually reduce the IMS failure rate.
Worrying about your IMS in light of this suit is like suddenly finding out that humans can get cancer. The lawsuit doesn't mean you are suddenly at a higher risk of your engine imploding.
The big winners here are the aftermarket IMS retrofit companies and installers. I would wager that in the future a car with an upgraded bearing may sell faster (maybe not for more $$$) than a car with the OEM bearing.
I tend to agree that this forum hits a pretty narrow audience and most people don't know about the IMS issue or the class action law suit. Before buying my 996, I talked to 2 guys I know who own 996's and when I asked them about the IMS bearing issue both were like "what is an IMS???"
The majority of people looking for a Pcar today don't know about the IMS issue and even less know about the lawsuit. That includes non Porsche used car dealers."
Have to totally disagree with this. I'm in the process of looking for my first Porsche and have spent weeks talking with existing owners, all of whom new about the IMS & seals problem. Spent even more time on this forum where there are 2 stickies about IMS.
As most P owners are fanatical about their cars (a compliment-I know I will be). I'm convinced majority of used buyers spend hours researching their purchase. Guys who can afford new don't need to research, good warranty they obviously got lots of money;-) When I buy mine, its going to an independent shop near me in AZ to have the IMS & seals fixed. For me great peace of mind, specially when I'm buying an older car. I've already got a quote for the complete work, based on a 2001 auto C2, for me its part of the purchase cost.
Machog
Wierd, my 996 is up $1.5K on KBB from when I bought it a year ago... same specs and 5k more miles. This theory of lost value is not visible in my case, so far... fyi
FWIW, I was just checking autotrader for something unrelated and decided to do a search for '99-04 996 non-turbo models and noticed roughly over 700 for sale. Anytime you have that much inventory, there are going to be lower resale values, especially for a niche car like that where most buy it as an unnecessary secondary leisure vehicle.
Well as I've mentioned on this forum before - I wish you could see what 996 & 997 prices are in Melbourne Australia . You guys are getting great cars for next to nothing !! Amazing !!
2nd that Brunino, my 2002 Targa cost me $102,500 4 years ago, it had 79000 klms, now it has 160000 klms (and it's running fine, great car) but it's now worth $38,000 as a trade in on 997 and I would be lucky to get a buyer at $48,000 for a private sale, and at the moment the Aussie Dollar is 104.6 to the USD, you US guys are so lucky.
And there has recently been comment over here about how we are being ripped off by a lot of big corp's, a new Porsche here is about 3 times the US price, and the only cost we have above the US is a 10% GST tax.
When asked the MD of Porsche Cars Aust' said that the Aust' pricing was "set where it is because that is where the market is", go figure....
Yeah, KBB still estimates the value of my C4S as about the same as when I picked mine up a couple of summers ago (not that I paid the KBB price). Prices seem pretty flat to me. Of course, unlike most other car communities,
some
people on these forums seem bent on driving the 996's value down. What's up with that?
News of an IMS settlement is barely even out there. I'd venture a guess, as others have posited, that most 996 owners have no clue that there's an IMS problem let alone a case or settlement involving their cars. I can't imagine it having much, if any, impact on their value at this stage.
-Eric
Some of you keep mentioning Kelly Blue Book. Most Porsche dealers use Black Book. If you go in a Porsche dealership and ask for KBB on your 996, you will be quickly escorted off the lot as they laugh.
This Sunday, at the P car dealer shopping for a new Cayenne for the wife, a 2003 996 C4 Cab w/full leather was sold for $43K. No CPO. No warranty. (I'm in Boston area). I asked the buyer if he didn't think it was pricey for a 10 yr old car. He said that he had been searching for a clean blue C4, full natural brown leather that hadn't been molested for over a year, and that this is the car he wanted in the budget he had.
A 2005 996 C2 Cab was there for $50K. Not worth the extra $7K for him plus wasn't awd so it was out.
My point wasn't so much about the validity of KBB vs. Black Book. I've seen a lot of websites using Black Book, too. My point was about the consistency of the valuation. NADA's values are completely different from KBB but their numbers are relatively consistent with what I was seeing when I bought my C4S; as are Edmunds' numbers...maybe down $1K or so...which, I view as relatively flat given the age of these cars. Maybe I interpret the price change differently than most. And, maybe Black Book is completely different and they show a significant drop in value. Since I don't have a subscription to Black Book (and didn't then) I can't offer a comparison but maybe their numbers have fluctuated greatly. Dunno.
-Eric
I agree with your comment about IMS updated cars selling faster. I bought my specific 996 because the IMS update had been done and the PO was not charging a premium for that. I was actually trying to save around $35k to get into a P-car. When I saw a clean 99 pop up for $18,500, it was a no brainer for me.
My thoughts exactly! I didn't buy a collectible art piece! I bought a Carrera to drive and enjoy. It is worth exactly what I paid for it and nothing less.
What it boils down to for me at least, I saw an oportunity to own/enjoy a hell of a lot of car that somebody else paid 86k for new, for the price of a new Camry! I knew going in that with the unlimited supply of 996's at any given moment and maitenance costs, this wasn't going to be a safe place to put my money in a used car, but that's not the point! My 996 Cab entertains the hell out of me on a daily basis, and that smile on my face, the people I've met, and the club activities it has provided me, is worth any amount of money! Another reason that this whole 996 valuation is a moot point is the fact that any of you(me included) who have bought a used 996 and have owned it for at least 5yrs or so, have spent enough money in normal maitenance and upkeep to almost buy another 996 all over again. Drive your car, daily and often if possible, and if you are complaining about decreasing values, you missed the point of ownership and probably couldn't afford to "own" it in the first place. JMHO on the subject.
Now I must go depreciate my car further, it's a beautiful day in Seattle, and putting the top down and going for a cruise for no other reason seems like the right idea!
Of course dealers use Black Book for quick reference... But KBB is not useless. KBB low trade-in is usually a few hundred over high Black Book.
Not that it matters, because normal people don't buy cars at Black Book, those are wholesale numbers. Retail pricing is based on a bunch of additional factors including recon, financing, and the local market. And of course people who
actually know something
use recent auction data. On the east coast the best numbers come out of Mannheim.
Without real recent sales data none of us can make anything beyond guesses. But the assertion that 996 values are plummeting is wrong, unsupported by facts.
And no dealer ever escorted a buyer off the lot laughing...
Maybe its just South US prices but your right, they would "kick" you off their lot not escort you off. Porsche dealers are quite serious about "their" prices.
Hmm... KBB lists trade-in values well above what I paid for my car 4 years ago. Not that I take this as gospel (nor am I planning to sell), but I wouldn't say values are dropping.
IMHO, all this talk about �Blue Book�, �Black Book�, or �dealer pricing� is nice but totally unrealistic. I have a very nice 1999 996 that I have tried to sell here, Pelican, and Autotrader on 2 occasions starting in November and again in February/March. To be clear, that is a total of 6 ads over a 5 month period. I had 5 or 6 tire kickers and one offer: $17k.
After the last ad failed to generate any serious buyers I have decided that the car is worth more to me as a track car than to give it away. So I have started the annual routine of new tires, new brake pads, new brake fluid, etc. Can�t wait for the May event at VIR, 3 days on the full course.
But I digress. For whatever reason, the value of 996�s in the real world market place is down. It doesn�t matter why you need or want to sell, you will be in for a rude awakening. Prices are down, way down.
^^^ lol.
Really, a lot of us knew going into this for the ones that bought used, got it for a great deal. We also knew they built quite a bit of these models and that it would really never be a collectors item.
I don't really understand why everyone is bitchin?
Enjoy the car for what it is, a great exotic that most people would've never been able to afford AND ENJOY if these prices never dropped. A lot of us would still be looking from outside in IMO.
What was the point of this thread again?
Is it me, or are there quite a few new Pcar owners on RL lately? Could be seasonal, or it could be that new owners are just following other new owners who have posted.
996 prices have been trading between $17 to $19K for the past year with a few outliers. Not sure where the sudden drop in pricing comment is coming from. Cars depreciate approx 20% every year.
Porsche introduced a new model generation in the past 12 months as well so one would expect older generations make room for that also.
Hey now, I wasnt "laminating" (Im not a wood shop finnisher guy) nor was I even lamenting.
I was merely making an observation while I shopped for a newer model.
Those that continue to deny the 996 downward price spiral are just deluding themselves about ACV of the cars. I wish I would have waited for the Porsche bombshell of admitting the defect and I could have afforded a TT or a GT3, or one day a GT2.
None of those cars are affected by the IMS problem. In fact, this news of the legal settlement is probably more likely to push the prices of those cars up rather than bring them down.
Perhaps for a '99 or '00 with higher miles... find me a decent '02-'04 with ~50k miles at that price and I'll buy it today. A friend bought a nice '02 with 40k and very few options last fall after a long search. He paid ~$25k. After all the cars he had looked at he was very happy with that price.
Also just like the stock market, there's gonna be owners that panic from the lawsuit and sell off their cars thinking there maybe something "wrong" with their cars, further flooding the 996 used car market and increasing supply and lowering demand.
Important to note that your Black Book estimated range represents trade in/wholesale value to a dealer, not retail to the public. What matters for this discussion is actual retail sales.
For example - here is a 40th Anniversary with 27k offered for sale at a Subaru dealership in CT. The list price for the car is $49k!!!
Don't misunderstand, they are
not
going to get that much for the car. And all sorts of regional pricing comes in to play. Cars are more expensive in the Northeast and CA, cheaper in the Midwest, FL and TX. But I bet they get $38-40k - which is a whole lot more than the $24k high trade in number.
http://billkolbsubaruinventory.vinma...spx?ID=2376599
Also remember that dealers can always get more for a car than a private seller.
One only needs to look on Autotrader at the number of views the mid price and higher price cars have to see that they don't seem to sell for a very long time if at all.
Capt Obv. , its called "guilt by association".
Maybe its $49K because its "AWD". LOL, they know there P-cars.
I predict it will be there for a LONG time at that price. You can easily pickup a TT for less. I bet you could look at this car in person and ask "Isnt this the car Porsche is recalling because the engines are deffective?" The price will drop about $15K. They will be lucky to get over $30K for this car.
I didn't buy my car as an investment. I know that they depreciate in value. I've just always found it interesting how some people like to make a case for just how quickly they seem to drop in value. I've spent time on a lot of car forums and I can't think of another where I've sensed pleasure(?) from a group of people when they talking about their car's depreciation. It's just strange.
Wrong. Porsche ISN'T recalling the 996. A recall would be GREAT for owners. Porsche isn't recalling anything. They're allowing for the miniscule group of people who know about the settlement and who fall within its tiny scope of protection to possibly get some reimbursement if their IMS fail
ed
or fails in the future, provided the cars that fail continue to meet the settlement's requirements, which is very finite given the time bar included in its terms.
-Eric
You are correct. Low mile 996.2s have been trading in the mid twenties for the past two years as well. This thread is about the "sudden" drop in value and I just don't see it.
This thread is moot! It doesn't matter if the car is worth $10 or $10million! It only matters if you're going to sell! It's like saying your house that you bought for $500k is only worth $450k now. What difference does it make unless you're selling RIGHT NOW?! It could be worth $550k, but again, who cares unless you're selling RIGHT NOW.
KK is by himself driving down the value of these cars. I for one am waiting for him to upgrade to a GT3 or TT so he can start bugging those guys instead. :P
The prices were not this low two years ago. In mid 2012 the dealer asking price on my 03 C4S started at $37K. They dropped it to $35K, I was patient and waited then got it for $31K which is no where near the mid $20's. The dealer had more invested in the car.
I got lucky and got one of the good engines (so far) but should have spent a little more for a TT as Cannon suggested.
It was only recently that I noticed a rapid decline. KBB retail for mine is now $39K, which is fantasy land. Porsche Dealers are only going to give you BB not KBB.
A buddy of mine paid $27K for a 02 C4S with 77K miles in summer of 2011. Low for sure but not unheard of. Median price back then was $31 for a car like that.
Can't help you if you bought at a dealer and then find this sites like this with deals to make you feel like you overpaid by buying from a dealer. They have to eat too.
Bought mine almost four years ago for the mid $20s. If anything prices seem to have remained constant. Sure there are high and low outliers but just like the old rule about ANY older used 911 being a $20k car - I think it still applies with a 996.
I paid $22K for a 108K mile 4S with 45K on the motor and full maintenance records.
The one upside is that there were far fewer 4S coupes made compared to narrow body coupes. There's about the same number of turbo coupes as 4s coupes.
996 Carrera Cpe(300/320)- 37756
996 Carrera Cab(300/320)- 31122
996 Carrera 4 Cpe(300/320)- 25286
996 Carrera 4 Cab(300/320)- 18822
996 C4S Cpe-17298
996 C4S Cab-5757
996 Targa- 2693
You guys need to stop buying new Porsches, the prices will drop pretty quick.
As for falling prices, they are simply continuing to depreciate, I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that. They'll level out eventually - like all cars.
The 996 isn't yet collectible. One reason is due to the sheer volume of 996s that were imported as lease vehicles. If you want it to be worth something, be prepared to hold it until the herd is culled. Look at 914 values... now that the majority of them have either rusted away or met their end in a more flamboyant way, the price for a solid 914 is through the roof.
I bought my 996 precisely because it cost me less than a loaded Camry would have, and I didn't want to hate myself just a little bit more every day for driving some sh!tbox to work. So now I pick between my '96 Corvette (which has 24K miles on it) or my '99 C4 (which now has 52K miles on it), depending on whether I'm in a Van Halen or Falco kind of mood. Either way, I get to ride to work in a car that's still cooler, faster, and in better shape than 95% of the other cars on the road.
If I manage to keep my 996 in great shape for 15 years, that's awesome for me. If it finishes life backwards in a ditch on fire, that's
still
awesome for me, and your car will have just appreciated a bit more.
Halik, Sounds like you got a good deal on that one. Is the body and interior in good shape? I also paid 22k fo mine not quite 2 years ago but it was a 2001 with 62k miles also in exc cond with records. Its been a great car.
I paid $30,250 for mine last year - really high for a '99. However, it only had 45K miles, and easily had $15K worth of GOOD upgrades (aero, suspension, exhaust, wheels & tires).
The paint isn't great - I'm having it redone due some asshat keying it. Interior and mechanically mint, car has ~$22K in maintenance records. The car is from porsche exclusive program - leather airbag, wood steering wheel/shifter/handbrake, factory painted console etc; very happy with the options.
I agree with the idea that the car is worth what you can get for it when you sell it. Forums are always the same. There are a handful of folks that got an amazing deal (or claim they did... I mean who really knows on a forum anyway) and of course post. That gets taken as an indicator of what "market" absolutely is, but in reality 5 people who may or may not have gotten the deal of a lifetime doesnt reflect the reality of thousands of cars.
All I know is that a couple of months back when I was considering unloading my car (02 996) I was offered $25k on *dealer trade-in*. Thats pretty good for a 10 year old car with a reputation as bad as the 996's has (unfairly) been.
Sure there are people that bought a factory new 03 C4S 4 years ago for $20k and Im sure someone will say they bought a low mile turbo just now for $19k, but to me, if I can get $25k on a dealer trade then the valuations are pretty decent.
Some people (especially these days) give things away because they are desperate for money and so outlier deals can happen. There arent an infinite number of those folks though. Also, accident history is *huge* or some buyers (me), but *many* choose to either ignore it or just don't see it (or they don't talk about it)
Every "amazing deal" car I've ever checked out (Porsche, NSX, GTR, Ferrari, on and on) had accident damage. For me that made them non-starters. For others those cars *were* a great deal and I'm sure they ended up with happy owners. I doubt any of those people (if they even were aware) ever posted "got a GREAT deal on a car that only had MINOR accident damage!"
Point is you never really know... It *is* possible that they lawsuit will have impact on 996 pricing, IMO, and if it does it would likely be in the short term, but it would take gathering a lot of *real* market data (meaning surveying *hundreds* of sales and knowing the real condition of the cars) over months to accurately gauge it. And no one does that. So the rest is hearsay.
the 996 really is the bargain porsche... easy to DIY anything on the car and parts are decently priced... aside of the engine replacement cost.
There are not that many cars you can buy right now for $20k that were priced at $100k when new. I mean even the M5 are going for more money ! and god knows they have a reputation to be expensive to fix.
Is anyone here willing to trade their 996 for some spare pocket change and some baseball cards I have in my attic(don't get too excited their not that valuable)? I'd love to have a second "track only" 996.
Anyone??? I'll even throw in some couch cushion change to sweeten the deal...
Honestly with KK and crew preaching about reliability and all these gloom and doom scenarios from the rash of newbs lately, along with "I got my low mileage 996 for $1x,xxx" postings, I wouldn't be surprised if you start seeing more 996's in the 4 figure range soon.
Someone should set up a website for 996 owners which requires membership, when people want to sell they form a queue by region, keeping only one vehicle for sale at a time. We could inflate the price of the cars around the world by effectively making them exclusive by controlling the market.
In fact the website could host the adverts too, one stop 996 shop :-)
Word of mouth spreads fast about these things in forums and facebook etc.
I'm happy to report, according to Kelly Blue Book the 996 Turbos must be going up, up, up! My '04 is worth 33% more than what I paid for it at retail and that is with the current mileage.
Looking a round a bit at 996 Turbo prices just recently, they seem a whole lot higher than what they were 2-3 years ago.
Does it really matter what the values are doing for our cars? Every time we get into our car, turn the key, and listen to this fabulous example of mechanical genius come to life, all those concerns about valuations disappear. We bought these cars because we LOVE them. The concern about money is out the window. It's about the passion for the experience. I don't think anyone buys a Porsche to be frugal.
Just my 2 cents.
I for one wouldn't be here if 996 prices were rock-solid. I'd still be driving my seal-gray Boxster... the one I was able to afford because the 986's also get beaten up on forums because of the m96 issues.
Pricing for these cars is all over, and very region-specific as well. For example, here in Seattle, the cheapest 996 I could come up with during a quick search this morning was $22k for a 2001 coupe with 90k miles. Whether or not it will actually sell at that price remains to be seen.
I am sure i paid a little more than i should have or right about where i should be. I am happy with my purchase and plan to drive the car as long as i could. The PO did put a new clutch and ims in so that adds value.
I was browsing craigslist and saw this 996 cab ... looks like a reasonable deal if someone is in the market here...
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/ctd/3712034483.html
If that crazy looking speaker box mod is any indication of the quality of work done by the PO on the rest of the car, I wouldnt even consider it. Looks absurd and dangerous.
Looks like the OP either wanted more bass than the OEM Cab sub box or didn't want to front the extra cost to obtain an OEM version. He might've been better putting that box behind one of the seats instead.
You said it! Bottom line is the most important thing about a Porsche is how it drives, and if it gets your heart racing. Does it really matter if the newer Honda Accord you pull up next to at the lights is worth more than your car? No, it doesn't - you still look way cooler and have more fun driving than they do. The 996 is a great deal in a car, I love mine for sure. But it's still just a car, and most cars depreciate and go down in value over time.
This is what's going to be scary for future buyers I fear. Not just kids buying these up and running them into the ground with sub par maintenance, repairs, and mods, but also the adults that have no business owning one of these on the first place doing the same things.
One could find themselves playing even more of a Russian roulette in the future when shopping for these cars that have already been through some of these hands.
