x-51 package, why not just make it stock?

Why would Porsche sell a car that they know could generate that much more power, with an addition of few different cam shafts, intakes ,etc? Could it really be for the few people looking to step up for the option package?

I'm with you on this one Chris. With the Gayman out now (oops, I mean Cayman) they should really have the base 997 as the 3.8 with 355hp and the "S" as the 381hp with x51 standard on that model. there is just WAY too small of a gap between the Cayman and the base 997 IMHO. I would not consider the base 997 when I go car shopping next spring.

Dell I agree 100%, I am thinking about walking away from my 997TT on order...Porsche is just not the same anymore. Their purpose is to get the most cars in peoples garage as possible.With the new ZO6 out spanking the Porsche in every possible way. Its a mear $90,000 CND. or $65,000 USD.. its a no brainer.The only advantage i see to a Porsche now, is that I paid more for less...no correction a lot less.I mean first the Boxster now the cayman, a now a new four door sedan coming Porsche does not have the same focus as they once did..

Agreed with you as well, Chris. But to be honest, I feel nowadays new Porsche owners are more interested in the marquee then they are about the actual performance. Enthusiasts like ourselves are interested in the extra HP... Porsche doesn't <i>need</i> to have the x51 standard.

There are two reasons I see to make it an option: 1) profit margin 2) Porsche is catering more and more to comfort/luxury rather than performance. So for an increasing number of 911 buyers, the car already has more than enough HP.

This is the very reason I still have the AMV8 on my short list. Granted I can even buy on in thr spring when I go car shopping. I hear most dealers have already sold all their allotments.

Dell, get the AMV8. If it drives as well as it looks, then it will be a keeper for sure. Just get a 998 later on and skip the 997 generation..

I doubt the AMV8 will even come close to a 997S in any area of performance; not to mention the shabby quality of Aston Martin.

Hope Porsche listens up. Chris and Dell have it nailed. The Cayman S has a measly 15HP more than a Boxster S. That's an Cayman S? Give me a break. With a few bolt-ons, an * older * Boxster S can typically get 285 to 295 HP and is lighter (albeit not stiffer). The base Cayman should have the 3.4L, the S the 3.6L at the minimum. 997 base the 3.8L, 997 S the X51 at the minimum. Porsche needs to dial/scale up the HP to keep competitive and differentiate the product line. The aftermarket has got it right by putting 3.8L in Boxsters/Caymans. Why can't the factory get even close? Maybe if they do a "refresh" in a couple years after finding their cars are underpowed, I'll be interested.

Agreed... The 997S will take the AMV8 no doubt, but I don't think you would buy a Aston Martin if you wanted pure performance. It sure is puurdy though and will be much, much more rare than the 997

What this leads to is the inevitable: the death knoll for the base 997. Watch over the next couple years as the base model vanishes, with the 'S' as the first level 911 in the lineup.

Jon and Pete....... That's funny. Pick up a copy of the newest Top Gear magazine. There is quite the article thats profiles 2 cars in a comparison.......yup, you guessed it, the 997S and the AMV8. Page 124 talks about how the AMV8 beats the 997S at the 'ring. Only by 2 seconds, but the point is that the cars were driven by the same individual that set the CGT time around the ring in 7:32 (Horst Von Saurma). By the way, the 997S has the sport suspension and PCCB! And as they say in the article......want the guy at the pub that says "will the gentlemen that drives the Aston......" Make mine James Bond silver

I stand corrected. I guess they are both pretty much on par with eachother (two second difference on the 'ring is nothing really). AMV8 all the way then Dell! No brainer The exterior/interior options on the AM must be pretty sweet

[QUOTE=LVDell]Jon and Pete....... That's funny. Pick up a copy of the newest Top Gear magazine. There is quite the article thats profiles 2 cars in a comparison.......yup, you guessed it, the 997S and the AMV8. Page 124 talks about how the AMV8 beats the 997S at the 'ring. Only by 2 seconds, but the point is that the cars were driven by the same individual that set the CGT time around the ring in 7:32 (Horst Von Saurma). By the way, the 997S has the sport suspension and PCCB! I haven't seen the article, but that sounds odd...the cars each have 380 HP (at least the 997S with X51 does), and the Porsche is about 500 pounds lighter...even a standard 355 HP 997S would seem to have a better power/weight ratio and be more nimble to boot.

triode....just pick up a copy. I found it hard to believe myself.

Let's face it, right now Porsche doesn't offer much more than the marquee. There are other cars perform as well or better for less money.

Guys! I cannot think of another car which would withstand two seasons of intensive tracking (70 days worth) without any problems. Durability counts and I doubt that the Aston will overcome its heritage in that regard. Porsche has bragged about its profits so much that everyone is taking a run at their segment. The Audi A9 is yet another example..(was the Le Mans as a prototype) aimed at the 911. There's a new entry level Ferrari coming too .. all target the profitable 911. I expect that elements of the CGT will begin showing up in future 911s .. be patient. Manufacturers have been leap frogging the competition forever and the 998 will put PAG back in the lead. I would not be surprised to see a GT3 engine in the Cayman one of these days either. Best,

Where is the Love? I have been a porsche 911 nut since I was 7 and havent even considered another, not for a second. Their is an admiration for a 911, that you either you have it or you dont. About the performance...I agree in the respect that the 911 should have the x51 package standard, but it would be just for bragging rights. The performance difference of the Z06... who cares. We are not all going to be at the track, where the difference would be seen. On the street, where we drive our 911's, I rather be in a 300hp. 996 then a gaudy corvette... even if it had 500hp. Just my Opinion. BTW if anyone wants to sell their 997'S cheap, because they want a crappy Zo6...email me.

Let me ask you guys this, don't you feel like your being rapped? Porsche used to stand for performance, maybe i am not a true loyalist like some, but The 911 just does not have the same impact it once had. We used to be able to say things like" Its built for the track" or " nothing out handles or out brakes it" or " it's a Porsche enough said". The sad part is , there is allot of cars out there for a lot less money doing a lot more.It's an insult to me, when Porsche offers the x51 for our cars when the car is so underpowered the x51 should be standard.I am really starting to hate Porsche as a car company and cannot see me driving another. In reply to will, how stupid will you feel when a " Crappy ZO6 "Spanks you in the street , on the track and all the way to the bank, I could just imagine what the ZO6 owners will be thinking This guy paid allot more and cant even pretend to be a close match to their "Crappy ZO6 regardless if your in a NA 996 ,997S or even a TT. There is a thread on the GT2/GT3 forum posted from a guy that owns a GT2 and a new Z06.I think you should just see what the guy said about the performance. We all love 911 , this is why we own them, but it doesnt mean we are smart

Let's wait a bit. Every new car gets the magazines into a love fest. Then, six months or more later, the warts surface. see Ford GT for example. The stock 997 is a damn fast car. Yes there are faster cars, the Noble, the F430 and the GT3 to name a few. Maybe the Z06 is quicker but that yet to be proven, especially on the durability front. Heck there are EVO's which are faster than a 911 but does that make me whine Nope.

I agree with you Bob. . . Very few cars, including the Corvette, can take the type of punishment on the track that Boxsters and 911s can take straight out of the box. I am sure the Cayman will be the same. Sure, if you only want to show off on the street, or if you want to drag race, or if you want to brag about numbers, then don't buy a Porsche. If you want to use your car on the street and the track, there are few cars that will serve you as well as a Porsche . . . Period.

Again, agreed . . .

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. Porsches have always been slow on the street. I don't think there has ever been a time when there hasn't been several cheaper cars that could kill a base 911 in a street drag. That's not what the car is about. It's about a street car that can double as an enduro racer. Not a street car that can double as a dragster. Further, the 911 is going to have competition. The Corvette, M3, AM, and others will always be gunning for it. There is nothing wrong with that. (My big hang up with Porsche is that they won't let the 911 take a back seat and make the Cayman the sports car in the lineup but that's a different thread.) Regarding the X51. Most owners don't need it, don't want it, so I don't suppose it makes much sense to make it part of the base car. It would certainly add to the price. It's some pretty trick stuff. I remember when my X51 upgrade package showed up at my mechanic's shop. It was a couple of days before xmas. They waited for me to get there and we spent a couple of hours unpacking it. Cams, heads, intake, headers, etc. etc. What a great day. Regarding the Z06, give the kids at Chevy credit. They've come up with a pretty nice car. This can only be good news for us. Competition is good. Just my 2 cents worth. Jim

First,...I certainly agree that X51 should have been standard for the base model and I certainly find it an insult that porsche did'nt do so. Porsche is doing cheap tricks to sell more cars for sure...the damn fake quad exhaust for one really pisses me off. I thought only mustangs did that,...any how. I agree with Kilrgt that Porsche's doesn't have the bragging rights of yesteryears. It does'nt dominate in all categories as it use to.....even the C5Z06 was an excellent package, the C6 certainly will be better....but, I am clinging on to the one factor that the vette still lacks, and I value the most. I drive a porsche and the vette drives you. It's the feeling of being one with the car...it's the right BALANCE of power, handling and braking...not over doing any one factor. So, for me I don't see a porscheless garage in the near future...but, I am keeping my options open. Jim, B...I just saw your post and I agree that there has always been dragsters that can out run the base porsche.....but today's Z06's and evo's are not just dragsters.

Let me just make my side clear so I am not put in to the 911 hating crowd..... I have no plans of selling my current 996 which is setup nicely for the track and is taken there quite a bit! And...it holds up beautifully. I just want another car to add to the garage and for the money that the 997S is commanding, the AMV8 is VERY appealing.

Agreed. Regarding the X51, of course I wish it were standard, BUT only if the list price were not higher, and that would never happen. It is far better that it comes as an option rather than standard. Don't need the extra ummphh? Don't order it and your base price is cheaper. Want the extra ummphhh? Get out your wallet and it is yours. Where is the problem? Porsche has always made owners pay for HP.

wow! I'm going to have to read that review.... the AMV8's HP must be underrated... the "S" is one fast car and a real handler... in porsche's defence this is why people are laying out the $$$$ for the handling and confident "feel" the car gives you.... the new Z06... sure its blazingly fast... but the "feel" isn't there... this is well documented in some recent tests... the AMV8 is a beautiful car if you like that kind of shape but how does it "feel"... as far as porsches go... often imitated... never duplicated still stands; go drive a new corvette and see how it feels... cheap plastic and low quality everywhere... (a good value but still doesn't "feel" right...) and not the easiest car to drive... a porsche will still be a good car after 4 years of hard driving... can you say the same thing for the vette?.... what porsche has to worry about is not the AMV8 (cause Aston has quality problems lets face it... and there not about to iron them out any time soon)... but BMW's new V8 M3 motor should easily outpace even an "S" given it will be a derivative of the M5-V10 ... but the handling... don't know about that... but it WILL be a great seller cause its a car you can drive all year round (or so most people seem to use this justification when buying an M3 )... in the end the competition is putting more value into sports cars as they evolve... so porsche will have to anti-up; something it can easily do but at the expense of pissing off previous p-car owners. and for those of us who complain about not being able to dominate strait line racing... as fun as it may be.. well... that's not what porsche is all about.

I just find it hard to belive that they allowed the base 997 to be so close to the Cayman (or is it the other way around). It should be (as I have said)....the base 997 is the 3.8 and the "S" is the X51.

Oh, by the way Todd.......I won't be adding ANY more cars if we end up moving back to Georgetown in the Spring. Where in the world would I park them all!!!!

The crowd that thinks X51 should be standard assumes that porsche could have priced the car the same even with the X51 package. But, if the R&D etc., infact cost's the extra 10-15k and not just a scheme for higher profit..then I am cool with the currenty set up. EDIT: T.D why would it never happen....don't each 911 model always improve..and there has been major technical advancement in the 911 series without a major increase in price and is asking for an x51 package standard after a 7 yr run of the 996 too much to ask, should we settle to the 5hp increase only. (I know the 997 improved in other aspects too...but, I am talking about the motor).

Welcome to my world

Do you store the 944 somewhere?

I was not looking to stick it to Porsche. I just think that little boost, might have made all the more difference to the 996 and its position in the minds of many. Now, why am I being so prophetic about my car. Well first, the car has been giving me issues recently, so it makes me feel good to give it right back Second, in the coming months I have to decide if I want an Audi RS4? Keeping THREE cars in NYC is just stupid,so the Pcar would have to go. In the process of deciding, I tried to think what would be more timeless. A standard 996C4 or a limited US release RS4? Would I be happy with either car in 5 years? At the same time, the wife saw a 911 anniversary edition and said, " why didn't you get that one". Man did that crush me, but also made me think about the x51. So, what can I do to make the 996 I currently have all the more timeless and unique and somthing I would like to keep for years to come. The x51 would have been nice from the start, but now its a $12-$15k investment. I was also thinking about the RUF SC. I know, its big bucks, but the EVO SC has absolutely no panache in my book while the mere mention of RUF raises an eyebrow. Now I wonder what would happen if I put in the extra bits in from the x51 while having the engine work down for a SC..... Hmmmm, now that would be something sweet!

in the great Commonweath of VirginIIIAAAA

Chris, what is your second car right now? Cause if it is a daily beater, I think I would keep the pcar. However, I can see how tempting the RS4 is. It looks like a sweet car, but I think you will miss the charisma of the 911. I think in five years if you had to keep the car, you would be more happy with the pcar than the RS4, but again, my opinion is obviously biased. I think Audi's look really dated after every generation. The RS4 will be much easier to drive around the city, and I'm sure the ride won't be as rough as your C4 with JIC's. But since you are already half way there, you mind as well keep your car and mod that baby up. Drop a blower in and voila. You have an entirely new car to enjoy

Todd......I might have to do that as well. Can you PM me with the details (location, price, etc.)???

You�ve got to keep in mind that if the X51 were standard on the 997S the increase in base price would not be the delta that is currently charged when ordered as a special option, namely the $17k. The standard labor rate to assemble an X51 engine on a production line would not be significantly more than it would be to assemble the 3.8L engine, and so the delta here is probably negligible. That leaves only the cost differential of the X51 components as the main cost driver for the increase in price, which I would estimate to be no more than $5k on the 997S, if it came equipped with the X51 engine as standard, as proposed. The only reason it costs as much as it does as a special option is undoubtedly due to higher manufacturing costs (processing costs, special handling, higher part costs due to lower lot sizes in production, etc.) It�s the same reason why special paint-to-sample costs what it does � it�s not the material cost of the paint that drives the price but manufacturing costs.

OCBEN: While I didn't bring it up, that's my main point. A cam is a cam and a header is a header. They all use the same amount of material and the same amount of work and labor. All I can think of is that the x51 requires higher quality gas, and so they couldn't make it standard as they sell to places that might have a hard time getting HQ gas. Beyond that, its either Porsche needed a little reserve to make "special editions" or the x51 is really stressful on the engine, and they didn't want that. I find the latter to be highly unlikely.

This can be said of every new model....we can assume that all these costs would increase when a new model comes out, and in this case the 997. My question is whether one should settle for a 5hp. increase with the newer model or ask for the extra X51 package as standard. There is no right answer.

You need to get the facts straight: apparently the corsa tires knocked off 10 secs off the AMV8 time but the 997 has sports suspension, LSD and PCCB, only good for 5/6 secs(?). So the 997S was probably faster, at least at equal money.

ribbit.....I need to get what straight? I did not misrepresent ANYTHING. I reported as the article stated. The Corsa's are tires that are to be offered as daily driver tire options when purchasing the car and are tires that perform in wet as well so don't give me the crap about they are competition tires. Bottom line is they both (997S loaded to the hilt and the AMV8 with Corsas) performed pretty much equally. I mean, come on, what is 2 seconds in 14 miles??? Besides, what do you think the PCCB's did for the 997S versus a 997S w/o or even w/o sport suspension and LSD as well. Thanks for playing.

Dell, I was not able to find info on the AM vantage v8 anywhere.. COuld it be called something else, perhaps db7 or db9? I was searching on ebay...

Doesn't come available for purchase till after Christmas. YOu can get info on the Aston website though. Pricing and availability is still not "officially" available. http://www.astonmartin.com/thecars/v8vantage

Hmm... same here, never knew it existed. It's on the Aston Martin website, but no pricing. I finally found it in a R&T issue (11/05). List $110K. Some highlights/interesting features which should keep Porsche at least paying attention: 380 HP, front-mid engine (48%/52% weight distibution), 14" Brembos with slotted rotors and tied for best ever recorded 60-0 stops with the Boxster, a little more portly and slightly lagging the 997S in handling and acceleration, but it has a dry sump, nice fit/finish, exclusive, limited dealerships/reliability could be a concern. Interesting at least.

Forgive me but as a Porsche 996 C4 owner who sold his Corvette to purchase and drive in Germany I love my P Car even though it is not the fastest car on the Autobahn. I selected the Porsche based upon money, prestige and probably most importantly because I like sports cars and my German wife absolutely would not let me keep my Corvette because in her words it is a Pimp car. However I must strongly disagree with all the people who put down the corvette because of reliability. My impression is that the Corvette held up every bit as good as a P Car and I never once worried about RMS issues and never replaced anything outside of an alternator, brake pads and regular maintenance. Now with my P Car at 28,000 miles I need a new clutch and if I want to stop the very slight occasional drip of oil will require the all too common RMS replacement. No I never tracked the car but in high speed driving 150MPH plus (note fastest I ever went was a Z06 chipped with not cats right at 190 MPH) on the A7 I liked the Corvette better as the front end felt more planted however get to the Alps in the curves then hands down I prefer the P Car. Would I sell my Porsche and buy another Corvette, sure, but that is only because I love both of these fine cars and realize they both have their advantages and disadvantages. Lastly the one thing that I HATE on my P Car is as mentioned above the straight line light feeling I have when driving fast, too me it feels like I should pull aft on the yoke and retract the wheels, maybe Porsche will make a plane right after the new 4 door. Oh, yes if I had the money I would take the Aston!

On the streets, even with spirited driving, I don't think you would notice a difference in reliability. On the track, which can be vastly more challenging for a car, I still stand by my statement that, straight from the box, I would take a Porsche over a Corvette any day (at least with respect to the previous generation Corvette -- the current one hasn't been out long enough to see) . Of course, there are things you can do to the Corvette to "fix" the known issues, and it might even be cheaper to buy a Corvette and make the mods, but . . . straight from the box, the Porsche is ready. I mean absolutely no disrespect to the Corvette. I personally don't care about "image" so I would be absolutely open to owning a Corvette. If you don't like the way your P-Car handles, change the alignment.

TD I took no disrespect I took it as your opinion based upon facts you have seen and as said I have never tracked the car although we have some pretty good ones here in Germany. On the alignment it is to specification straight out of Stuggart Porsche service center so not really sure how to improve outside of doing a suspension upgrade. If I had your PSS9s it would more than likely solve my problems but would create a bigger issue with my wife by the time I buy and have them put on. Currently I am in Kuwait on TDY for the military so enjoy driving your car and drink a beer for me. Cheers!

Will do. Cheers to you to. I was actually serious on the alignment, though. Everyone has personal preferences, and the alignment that makes one person happy might not make someone else happy. The factory specs are designed to make the car very "safe," but you might prefer something else. When you have time, describe what you are feeling to your shop, and I would bet they could adjust your current suspension to make you happier. Life is too short not to have your car tuned exactly like you like it. Have fun and keep the shiny side up.

There are no "known" issues relating to the C5. I only hope my TT will be as reliable as my 4 Corvettes ('69, '75, '94, '00).

There are "known" issues with EVERY car, period. Again, if you are talking about pure street use, sure, they are plenty reliable for street use. If you are talking about track use, I beg to differ. Again though, I mean absolutely no disrespect for corvettes. None, seriously. Also, as I stated earlier, you can probably buy aftermarket upgrades for less than the total cost of a p-car.

As put in my post (with a "?"), I don't know how much better the tested 997 was compared to stock, just guessing. And I agree the corsa's will be offered as a "factory" option on the AMV8, not "factory" on the Porsche. But I think it HAS to be mentionned that both tested cars didn't have the same kind of tires. Sorry you took it the wrong way (no attitude here) , but at least we agree they are both beautiful and very fast cars!

Thanks for the exaplanation scifrog......I agree they should have had the same tires on the 2 cars. But I would have also like to see a non-PCCB 997S with Corsa's agains the AMV8 with Corsa's. NOw that would have been more like it in a fair way. But still, I have no plans on getting rid of my current track car so the AMV8 would just be for those times I want to be Bond, James Bond

Well unfortunately these N'Ring times are more frustrating than anything else, as all the specs are not given or tried, Ferrari not wanting official trials and tires making such difference. People focus too much about value lately, IMHO there is no value in any new Porsche, they are a luxury brand and the most profitable car maker in the world. If you want value, by the cheapest car around. Else enjoy your ride and don't worry about the 40% the car will loose after 3 years, cars are depreciable assets, forget value, don't try to justify your purchase, just buy something you can afford (along with a little gift for the wife) and ENJOY while you can

Thanks Dell i'll keep an eye open for the AM.. I call first dibs on a test ride...

Porsche sucks....2 seconds slower......I am going to sell my old 911 and get a AMV8....or..maybe not! I don't need extra speed to get traffic tickets..I get them when I am making illegal U-turns. Average speed is about 36 Mph.....even when I drive 100 mph on the highway for about 50 miles...yes most people just buy the Porsche (or any other sportscar) for the look, the sound and the feel.....there are only a few lucky people who are able to push their sportcar to the limit...I was lucky when I lived in Holland and worked in Germany...driving 170mhp for extended periods of time from Amsterdam to Hamburg...couple of times a week.....now in the LA area.....forget about it!

I have to say I really do love my Porsche, but I guess I too am frustrated in the lack of R&D that Porsche has being doing. OK so they have the CGT , now many of us can get these ?Very few, cayman honestly who cares, its a new model built for profit, the boxster it shouldn't have been built for men! and the SUV is a joke., I don't care what anyone else thinks but the "NEW" 997 is also a joke, They are using old technology We pay BIG $$ for these cars at least make them somewhat competitive to a car that costs 40 - 50% less. I am not a 911 hater ,I guess I don't like the direction Porsche is going, the sad part is most think they are doing a good job....I can see them now laughing their ***'s off in the boardroom at us, with the conversation going a little something like this! Stupid people pay over 100 k ( cnd ) for a base car and the oil leak comes standard, and oh we underpower it so we can sell them a $18,000 option,which barely costs us any money, and oh we can rape them when the car comes in for service. Buying a porsche is from the heart , and not from the brain.and I am man enough to admit it I am a little jealous of the new Z06..aren't you??

Sit inside a new Z06, stare at the plastic standard GM truck interior and tell me how envious you are. Straightline vettes may always outperform Porsches, but they handle like warehouse trolleys. I always feel like I am driving them by remote control. Yeah, Porsche sticks it to us; but they can. The car is more than the sum of its horsepower, acceleration, torque, etc. It has a passions, something that the vette will never have.

what KILGRT said...!! its time for Porsche to up the anti in terms of a base offering.... 997 is not a good deal for the $$$ spent. look to BMW's new V8 M3 to put the 997 series to shame... for a lot less!!

The int of the new Z06 is of better quality plastic then in the 996/997 plastic! and you obviously have not driven the new Z06 it will make you want to puke in disgust of how your porsche handles. I will say that the Corvette of yesteryear is garbage the new car is not, drive it and see. I for one cant get over the fact its a GM, but it has passion, so much that our Porsches should be that way.The germans could learn a few things from this car, but they are depending on peoples loyalty....That my friends can only take you so far, If you have a dog for 10 years and he has been the best dog for ten years, but one day he bites you, will you keep him around? Porsche is OLD news just like their technology.

Kilrgt, I have driven the new car. The only thing it has is frightening speed, but driving isn't just about push. It reminds me of a lot of cars these days: fast, better breaks, high g's in turns, but you know what, despite all the changes, less feel. And what's this talk about technology. You want to talk technology? Let's just leave it at these two words: push rod. You might have had a shot if you were hitting me with the efforts that BMW and Porsche have in getting power out of engines half the size of the vette. And oh yeah, the plastic buttons in the car look like they were designed for the fabulously obese with thumbs for fingers. Dreadul look. Let me know if you want me to send you some reviews: you'll see that I am not alone.

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I will end this by saying this I love my Porsche , but bottom line it lacks power and it has lost the bragging rights of being a track car.I will pass almost any Porsche on the track with the ZO 6 . Does this mean i will not have a Porsche in the stable well at this point i don't know if i will take delivery of the 997 TT when it comes in. You guys shouldn't take it to heart that one of your own fellow Porsche owners is saying what you think, No one can deny that truth. This reminds me of what the 993 guys used to say about the 996. The 993 guys knew the 996 was a better car , but could not face the truth.Give me a 505 hp push rod motor over a 320 boxster engine. any day

FWIW, Porsches were NEVER fast, compared to American muscle cars...Handling and brakes is what always appealed to me...

Exactly

I agree 100% but the Z06 (c6) does out handle and out brake the Porsche, I think most have missed my point. But lets just agree to disagree. One of the reasons I love rennlist , is the adult conversations we can have with out it getting personal.

Kilrgt: I've got you. I started this thread partially as a sounding board for the idea of moving to an Audi RS4. While Audi has its own set of faults, its sure is a quantum leap over the old RS4. Something I don�t think one can say about the 997. I too, do not want to come off bashing Porsche, as I have had a lot of fun with the car. I just wonder what I will think in 4 years.

kilrgt, I'll say this: whatever our differing opinions on vettes and 911s, YOUR 911 looks fantastic! I just finished watching your slideshow and I love the interior....especially the stereo setup. Awesome. And the aero kit looks great! Okay fine, I'll definitely weight your vette impressions a lot more now....

Forgive me for my ignorance, but is Audi's RS4 history close to Porsche's 911 history? Porsche has been able to refine the 911 throughout the years and the improvements from a 996 to a 997 will be less than an older RS4 to the newer one. From everything heard, the 997 is a big step up from the 996. Nothing, but great reviews from 997 owners and magazines. And although there are subtle exterior cues sans the new headlights and wider hips, the interior by far shadows the 996. I get what you guys are saying. I don't think it's Porsche bashing at all. It does make sense. But personally, I don't really mind the direction Porsche is taking. Of course this is all subjective. There will be other cars that will out perform the 911, may be cheaper, brake faster, accelerate faster etc etc, but to me, it's that "porsche feeling" that cannot be replicated... The feeling you are driving one of the most refined sports cars in the market and performance aside, the exterior is just plain S-E-X. Other cars may outperform, but will they look good doing it? Not to bash any car out there... Posting in good fun

That is exactly what I have been trying to say! For track use straight out of the box, the corvettes typically have not been as durable as the Porsches, so they will certainly out break the Porsches. I believe what Eli is trying to say is that you cannot point to evidence that other manufacturers have cars with more HP and better acceleration times for a lower price than Porsche to prove the point that "Porsche has lost its way" or departed from its racing heritage. In fact, this would be evidence that Porsche is still on its traditional path because Porsches traditionally have offered less HP and slower straight-line acceleration times for a higher price tag, almost from day one. Moreover, Porsche has ALWAYS made its customers pay more for HP. As such, making the X-51 an option is not really that surprising. Of course, I would love for Porsche to give it away free, but it is hardly inconsistent with their history that they do not. The fact is that most people nowadays don't really care about pure "race" capability of the 911s or they wouldn't (1) put a bunch of stereo equipment in the cars and (2) put a bunch of non-performance-related modfications on the car that typically add weight without increasing performance. For these people, the Porsche is hard to beat because it has a greater "bling" factor that a corvette, and probably always will. If you really care about pure "race" capabilities, the 911 is still a fantastic car, really. Rather than complaining about HP numbers or straight-line acceleration times, people who really care about pure "race" capabilities will be bitching about the use of the "wet" sump that Porsche marketing passes off as an "integrated dry sump" rather than a true "dry sump." A couple of disclaimers here. First, I have nothing against Porsche owners who do not intend to track their cars or who pimp their rides to the nth degree. God bless 'em. So long as they keep buying cars and keep Porsche healthy, I am fine with them. Different strokes for different folks. Second, I have nothing against the Corvette or Corvette drivers. Fine cars, particularly the newest one. If you prefer one over a Porsche, for God's sake go get one. Life is too short for regrets.

Nice use of semantic hononyms Todd! I like the Vette's break better than Porsche rather than........Vette's brake beter than Porsche!

I couldn't help myself I didn't intend to become the spelling cop, it just cracked me up

I dont regret owning my Porsche, and in fact I will keep it . I will have the ZO6 right beside the Porsche. When i want to go fast Ill drive the vette.

I don't care how much hp a Vette has, give me the rear weight bias any day of the week. Once you learn how to drive a 911 there is no substitute.

The initial question posed was whether the x51 package should have been the standard motor for the 997. I am not a hp. junky, to the contrary I honestly think that the 320hp. is plenty enough for me. But, I still thought X51 should have been standard for the 997,....but, the general consensus seems to differ. Before accepting my defeat let me clarify a few things. I love ALL porsche 911's...from the first one 40 yrs. ago, to the current version, and as i have said before even the current ZO6 IMO is not in par with the 911. But, the thread was'nt about this Now, let's see some FACTS,....964 C2 hp. 250 ish ( from 231 of the prior model),...993 C2 270 ish and then to 285ish, the 996 with 305 to 315. So, the question is, will an increase from 315 to 320 for the 997 keeping with trends, or an increase to 355 more like keeping with tradition. Given the FACT , like never before we have plenty of 500 hp. sedans today. To me that would mean a more than the usual increase in hp. with the newer model, not less. My mistake, I chose 355. Alas, the consensus is the latter, hhmmmm. Now, no one is saying X51 ought to be free,...rather I am saying there should be no such thing as an X51 option. The base car will have the 3.8L 355 hp motor. Also, this is the first time a new 911 model is released with 2 motor options available from day one. . But, whom am I to argue, ...when the sales figures and the majority here differ. T.D, IMHO the 911's never been the pure "race" car, to me it's always been the only car that is a very capable daily driver and still whoop some a$$ on the track, never to be trailored I agree with you that dry sump would have been nice,...but the facts are it makes no difference with street and r-compound tires and most have no problems with the wet sump with slicks (Jim, B, correct me, if i am wrong here). OTOH, Asking for a 355 hp. as the base motor to me is not being a hp. junkie but rather keeping with the 911 tradition (see previous paragraph for the proof). Would the 996 gt3 be well recieved if it had all the goodies but less hp. or equal hp as the base 996.....I Know it's the fashionable thing to say otherwise, but who are we kidding. hp. is not everything but it still matters a bit. A 1000hp. vette will never be a 911,...at least not yet...but a 355hp. 911 IS better than a 325 hp. 911...I for one hoped porsche would deliver it as the base model...that's all.

Getting back to the thread..Yes the x51 should have been standard. I know I will feel embarrassed when a cayman beats up on me on the track.But all old school Porsche guys should feel proud I mean it seems some of you like paying more for less.

Does anyone have a listing of power/weight ratios? Unless I am mistaken, Porsche pays more attention to power/weight ratios than pure HP numbers. For example, the little "bump" in HP for the '02+ 996 over the 99-01 merely compensates for the added weight of the mid-model year changes. If you fail to take weight into consideration, you would think that the '02 is far superior to the 99-01. However, when you view things properly, you realize that the performance is roughly on par. I know there are cars with more HP out there, but, for the most part, they are heavy pigs. They might even have enough power to compensate for the weight in straight line acceleration numbers, but I would take a lighter car with less HP everyday of the week, particularly if the power/weight ratio is somewhat in line (I still prefer lighter). Also, the subject that many people have failed to mention here is the intangible "feel" that a great car gives. In other words, driver feedback. Although the modern Porsches are much more insulating than their predecessors, the driver feedback they give is incredible, and few mass production cars can meet this. The simple fact is that there are few cars in the world that are as easy to "drive" fast (drag races not included ) than the modern 911s. There may be some cars that, in theory, can be faster in the right hands, but I doubt that there are many who can be faster in the hands of the average driver, which, unfortunately, includes most of us here. Jeeva, I am with you about the "race" issues. I merely meant performance. Neither the 996/997 nor the Corvettes are true "race" cars. Apart from this clarification of terminology, I stand by my points. I am not too worried about the dry sump issue either, but my point is that the guys who really can drive are worried about issues other than solely HP and numbers on the page. Have you guys been on the track with a base 997? Forget the numbers in the magazines. It is damned fast. It takes my 996 by a fair margin in the straights as well. I guess my bottom line is that numbers are OK for comparing broad subjects, but they really miss the point for "performance" driving. You can look in the magazines all you want, but until you learn to drive these things the way they are intended to be driven, and you have driven both cars you intend to compare, you are really just spouting hot air. I haven't driven the new Corvette. I would like to. However, I know better than to write off the Porsche merely due to comparative HP and numbers. There is a lot more to it than that. Until someone has spent a fair bit of time around and on the track, they just cannot be expected to understand this. I hope the Corvette is incredible, honestly. Competition is good. I am just not ready to start crying over the fact that it has more HP and better straight line acceleration numbers. It is too soon to tell, and there are a lot of factors that are equally as important as HP and straight line acceleration.

Here is a good demonstration as to why HP isn't everything. On last night's episode of Top Gear, the 295 bhp Porsche Cayman S got a time of 1.26.70 seconds, which is only 1/2 a second slower than the 510 bhp M5, 1/2 a second faster than the 400 bhp GT3, and faster than the Corvette (not sure on HP numbers for it). HP and straight line acceleration numbers just do not tell the full performance story . . . period. http://www.topgear.com/content/tgonb...times/thestig/

ummm... then prepare to be embarrassed a lot b/c i'm pretty sure a 2.4T motor could beat up on you at the track sounds like you want a vette to cover your driving deficiencies

you're sooooo a "label *****" that it cracks me up reading your posts.... instead of thinking that it's a high-revving, highly developed, tuned, PORSCHE motor.... you're stuck wearing your blindfold and seeing the "boxster" issue.... what if porsche never put *that* engine in a boxster, but instead just sold it, in a box, over the counter, to anyone?-- would you still have that narrow thinking about it being NOT INSIDE A 911???

LACK OF R&D????!!!- are you for real??? let me get this straight... you are saying the porsche.does.not.do.r&d... right? LOL... i don't even want to know what made you wake up w/ that idea in your head.... are you aware that it was porsche that first started beating on cars at the 'ring and then everyone else followed? what other company do you know that says "hey guys, we've got 150 corners here, they used to be used for F1 races.... let's put our cars here... just to see what happens..." i'm pretty sure the american muscle car R&D looked like this... bubba and billy bob jumped in, floored it down the straightaway until they saw a drive through... showed some chest hair to a betty on rollerskates, and ordered milkshakes... old technology??? (what's pushrod to you, new technology?????) gimme a call when "chebby" puts ceramic rotors on the car and lets the public order their LeMans race car technology for the street car....

why should the x51 be standard? the car will be overpriced even more and porsche will have less customers... doesn't make sense. whatever you guys think about the exclusivity of your "valet parker's toy", porsche WANTS more people to be able to enjoy their cars.... not just the 'privileged' few w/ a bigger bank account. so having choices will invite those w/ less money to get the car too. what's wrong with that? don't you guys want to share the 911 experience w/ more people??? in the past, porsche had an "S", an "E", and a "T"??? - why? so that rich AND poor could enjoy well engineered cars. if you had more cash, you could buy the 70's version of x51- the 911S... if you had less, you could get the "T" and still feel that you're driving a performance-oriented, well designed car... not a Trabant.... and if you had even less money, you could still have the same handling/engineering but with NO POWER by buying the 912... this was done so that not just the richest, but also the poor enthusiasts could have some fun w/ a GOOD car.... stop being so elitist and let porsche sell less powerful and cheaper cars so that others can enjoy them too. you want more power?? pay up!!! if you think you're being raped now, look back upon your resale value of that 996, and i will not pass up the opportunity to remind you that your 996 has the same type of door handle like a Camry... in my opinion, you were raped long ago and just haven't realized it. btw, what are you gonna do when you realize you can't buy that 'cool' carbon fibre toupe for the corvette dash???-- why? b/c they don't have those sweet upgrades, yo. how in the world will you "distinguish" yourself from all those other gold-chained "entusiasts"???

Damn well said Dave.

}{arlequin: Spare me will you. Sorting though all your gibberish is tiring. If the x-51 was standard, then it wouldn't cost more. Somewhere along the line of your obviously superior upbringing and understand of all things Porsche, someone forgot to teach the fundamentals of production line manufacturing. It's something that a guy name Ford developed a couple years ago... The short and quick version is that the parts which make up the x-51 are not more expensive than the parts they replace. So to make them the "standard option" would not make all the cars that much more expensive, if at all. The fact that they are unique and require a break in the normal production supposedly adds to the cost, justifying Porsche's significant premium for the option. Clearly Porsche has done the R&D for both.

ok.... if it's not more expensive then there are still plenty of reasons not go for it from the start... i, for one, am happy that the guy that's mesmerized by his cool carbon fiber shift **** DOES NOT have MORE power than he already has.... let's not combine a faster car w/ a guy that's busy admiring his interior also, have you heard about the M3 motors blowing up when it was first released? yeah, it's a nice car, a great motor w/ lots of Williams' F1 technology in it, but someone didn't do their homework and lots of motors were popping all over the place... don't believe me? check the M3 boards- it's pretty cool over there... they have even bigger signatures than the 996 board my point is, it's smart not to throw all.the.possible.power onto a new motor w/o knowing how durable it is. why overstress it? otherwise all you guys would be complaining in this thread how your car blew its motor. which do you rather prefer? no motor or motor w/ 30hp less?

You are absolutely right in this,...I hope an argument for X51 being standard in no way shape or form means hp. and staright line acceleration numbers tell the full performance story, or even the majority of the story.

I did'nt read all fo your stuff carefully, I agree with yetis...but this statement does'nt make sense. The proof is in the 997S.

OK. No surprise here but I agree with most of what }{arlequin says. I disagree with the premise that the X51 option would be "no" more expensive than the current motor if it were standard. There are additional parts (e.g., third radiator) that would make it more expensive. I prefer that Porsche allows more flexibility rather than less, so that those who are squeezing to get into a 911, or who do not need the extra power (i.e., most if not all of us on this board), are not FORCED to pay extra for power they do not need and will not ever use. Now, if the complaint is that the X51 option is far overpriced, then I agree with you guys completely. The option is too expensive, but, it doesn't bother me too much because I don't think you really need it unless your are racing in stock PCA classes. Look at the power curves on it. How many of you really use -- or should be using it -- on the streets? How many of you drive well enough on the track that you "need" it yet? For those of you who do not "need" it on the street (i.e., everyone) or on the track (i.e., most of us), then having the X51 as an option is better because you have not been forced to pay a higher price.

yes, the 997S makes more power than 996, from a virtually the same motor... but porsche didn't know how durable the motor will be- back then. now, after lots of them have been running around and are available for inspection by dealers/factory, they have a better idea of *what else* can be modified WITHOUT sacrificing longevity

Yeah, but your argument was even if X51 did'nt cost more you would'nt want it for it may be unreliable. But, porsche is doing it in the form of 997S and charging more...if the reliability is an issue, which it may be, I don't thiink all those guy's with the 997 are going to be with no motor,..it's not a choice of 30 hp. more or no motor is all I am saying.

no. my point is that *back then* (1999 etc.) porsche wasn't sure about the reliability so they wouldn't release a car that has it STOCK. now, years later, they have that knowledge and proof of it (in the form of 997S) and they are providing you w/ an opportunity to benefit from that.

997S gets it's power bump from a displacement increase to 3.8L, not X51. 911 Club Coupe adds powerkit to to 997S engine to take power rating to 381hp.

The GT3 produced that time when it was "wet"!!!! and the guys at top gear make a point of saying this when comparing times.. big difference. The Cayman S does NOT outhandle the GT3 or even a 996 equipped with PSS9 suspension... I know the 997 is suppose to be an improvement but the 996 with PSS9 is a far better handler than the 997..(from those who have driven both...)

Did I say that the Cayman S outhandles the GT3? Further, what does the PSS9 suspension have to do with it? My point behind making that post was merely that there is a lot more to consider than mere HP and straight-line accelerations numbers. Would you like to argue that point with me, or do you agree with me?

yes I totally agree with you... "GT3 handles better?" you inferred better handling it by comparing it to a perceived slower time achieved by a GT3 and that's where I wanted to point out that the GT3 was tested in the wet.... as for PSS9 that's a personal observation that I wanted to throw in here for all the people who say the 997 handles better by leaps and bounds... PSS9 is the quick fix.

I am glad we agree on that. You may have inferred, but I did not imply anything with my post beyond the fact that mere HP and straight line numbers don't tell the full story. The time groupings are interesting merely to show that disparate platforms with disparate HP capabilities can have groupings of time that are not that far apart. There are always variables on the track (e.g., rain, temperature, driver has the runs, etc . . . ), but the guys who pin all of their hopes and egos on HP alone are missing the forest for the trees. If they were right, then the higher HP car should always have a shorter time than the lower HP car. It just doesn't work that way all the time. Also, I bet if you did a back of the envelope calculation of $/per tenth of a second lower lap time on that list, the P-cars would fare pretty well. When you add in reliability out of the box, I bet over time the P-cars would beat even those few cars that seemingly give a better bang for the buck out of the box. My discussion has been limited to stock vs. stock. These days, you can take a lump of coal and turn it into a diamond if you spend enough money on aftermarket parts. That is why I didn't understand your reference to PSS9s, which I have on my 996.

kevin, my mistake...I meant the 997 X51 and not 997S (I knew this had the 3.8l). So, my argument is still the same excelt it's the 997x51 and not the 997S.

OIC,...I was only saying that the x51 should have been standard for the 997 base model and not for 996. 996 was perfect .....after a 6 yr profitable run I hoped the 997 base motor could have been a bit more powerful. I totally agree with you that x51 did'nt need to be standard for the 996.

If you look at the TopGear track times you'll see they are very close to one another... I think their track is pretty tight and I don't know how much extra hp will help you on that particular circuit... the cars that handle shine... the ones that' don't well.... look at the new M6.... when tested against the AMV8 it was on par on their test course... and it has 120 more hp!!! so yes even the new M6 falls victim to the more hp is better philosophy... don't get me wrong I think the M6 is a great GT coupe but as a handler it cannot be compared to true "sports cars"

T.D, I agree with you that the 911 is a formidable piece of machinary that can hold it's ground against most competitors,...even the higher hp. versions. But, your argument on why the 911 is better resembles a Ph.D dissertation,.....a few years ago, we did'nt need all this explanation. All it needed was, you are driving car X mine is a Porsche 911 and therefore we both know mine is better, period. It still doesn't mean I'll be happy today with any other including the vette and most ferrari's even, it does'nt even mean that this individual perspective make my car any lesser in my mind, the proof is in the drive....my car is a 911, and I still think it is a marvel of engineering shy to none. But, today I feel like I need to explain to others why it is. P.S: But, who the hell cares,....I still cannot get rid of that ear to ear grin each time I drive it. But, I do disagree with you on the x51 and the 997...but, I'll argue my point of view later. But, either way it is an opinion and not a mathematical proof. P.S: FYI,...if you reverse your position, I'll probably be arguing the otherway saying how good 911's still are and how wrong you are in saying that the other ordinary cars are even remotely close to the 911. It's all for fun.

I would rather have the 3.8L as the base 911 engine rather than 3.6L-X51. More torque, flatter curve. Then 3.8L-X51 could be the S engine.

LOL,....now, don't get too carried away here...we are having enough difficulties in trying to convince that the measly 3.6 x-51 be standard.

The 3.8L would be a much better choice for a base engine as it's power curve is more usable. Plus, at 345hp for the 3.6L X51 vs 355hp for the 3.8L, that's only a 10hp bump for the S. 3.8L X51 for the S would be a 26hp bump for the S (from 3.8L non X51). The price difference between 997 and 997S currently is $10,100. What is the cost of the X51 package? Why couldn't Porsche offer the 3.8L as the base engine at the same price as they would a 3.6L-X51 base engine?

I hear you, but my point of participating in this thread was not really to defend the 911 per se. Rather, it is to say that comparing high-performance sports cars based solely on HP and straight line acceleration, or to say that Porsche has "lost" its way because other cars have more HP and faster straight line acceleration, misses the point of a true performance sports car. There is so much more to consider. I am not going to look in the back of a magazine, see that the SL or the Corvette or the M5 has more HP than whatever car I am driving, and conclude that necessarly those cars are "better" or that I have been "raped" because Porsche isn't trying to fight those wars and therefore didn't post a higher number. Maybe some other manufacturer can introduce, or already has introduced, a high-performance sports car that is "better" than a 911. If they do, or if they have, HP and straight-line accelaration would only be a part of that equation. I hope they do, because it will turn up the heat on all manufacturers of high performance sports cars. Look, if I had a hotline to Porsche, I would make a number of suggestions: 1) Give me the ability to spec a truly lightweight performance Porsche from the factory (e.g., no sunroof, no soundproofing, few to no electronics, PSM that I could turn off completely, etc) without requiring me to lose the backseat that I use to transport my kids; 2) Make a true dry-sump engine, or at least make it an option; 3) Develop a number of different engines of different performance capabilities (e.g., TT engine, GT3 Engine, 3.8 X51 engine, 3.8 "S" engine, 3.6 engine, 3.4 engine, etc), and allow me to drop it into the platform of my choice (e.g., 911, Boxster, Cayman, C2, C4); and 4) Offer an integrated roll cage as a factory option (ala RUF). I have made my view clear here before that I consider the modern 911 to be more of a "GT" car than a true sports car due to its weight and focus on luxury items. I would like the ability to order it "exactly" the way I want it. So, I do not think that Porsches are "perfect," but I do not cry when I read the numbers in the back of the pretty magazines

O.K, let be take the bait....'cause porsche has made it's profit with the 3.6l motor with the 996 and I assume did'nt take much of any $ in improving it to the 997 version, and the x51 was already available for the 996. So, with the newer model, it is understandable to expect improvements over the previous motor without an appreciable increase in price. Like it has been for the 993 from 964, and the 996 from 993. Also, factor in that more than ever before there is a hp. war going on.....why not give the 3.6 x51 standard, and not a mear increase of 5hp., the record lowest increas in hp. between models.

TD, you forgot about the custom matched gears and a limited slip, rolled fenders, no pwr windows doors or mirrors, no abs, no traction cntrl, no airbags.

Ah,...thanks for reminding me,....I think on top of X51 they should have included LSD. If they can do it for the 40th, damn it why can't they for the base 997

I forgot the gears and the limited slip. You can roll the fenders yourself you lazy a$$ I didn't forget no power windows, doors or mirrors. I want ABS. I didn't forget traction control that you can shut off completely. I want airbags. I think you already have your dream Porsche

yes but i want a 'modern' looking version that will fool the women into thinking i'm "respectable" and give me pretend-acceptance at the country club as well as help me avoid disdainful looks from 996/997 owners at the stop lights LOL if i roll the fenders myself, which i can, i will have a really good chance of cracking the paint... this could be avoided by having it done at the factory before it ever sees paint if you skip abs and traction you can *always* treat it like practicing for the track. especially in the winter. nothing will make you more gentle w/ the inputs

I hate to break this to you brother, but I don't think owning a 996/997 would solve your "problems." Also, you might not get any more disdainful looks from 996/997 owners, but you would get them from everyone else, particularly the air-cooled guys.

bwaaaahhh, that's funny- outcast by my own brotherhood... imagine that

The 3.8L would yield a 35 hp increase over the 996 3.6L base engine, and a 10hp increase over the 3.6L X51, not to mention 22 more ft-lbs of torque than the 3.6L X51. The 3.8L is clearly a stronger performer than the 3.6L X51. Why not aim high? YMMV.

Can someone tell me how to unsubscribe to a thread? I get more email telling me that someone has made yet another inane post on this topic than I get email telling me how to enlarge my manhood. Perhaps I should pay closer attention to both but who's got the time. Jim

Jim, Click on the User CP tab then unsubscribe from the post... EDIT: To the point of the thread, I simply like my car the way it is. No I don't think X51 should have been built in from the factory. Want more power (although I can't imagine why) pay up!

It wouldn't be the bellow 2.4T...would it?