Gambled and Lost

So I bought my first 911 a 2002 996 RWD with 65k on the odometer about a month ago. I am aware of the IMS issues, and promptly got an appointment with Raby's Flat Six Innovations for his solution. While pulling apart the motor he found bits of the timing chain in the oil sump. Fortunately it did not destroy my engine. Unfortunately, there is not a good way to fix it with out a motor rebuild....

Well, that sucks. On the plus side, if you go through with the Raby build, you'll have a solid motor and you'll have done one of the few things (at least in the eyes of people who know anything about 996s) that can actually help the resale value.

What are the details of your 996 as far as color, etc? I ask because I traded in a 2002 996 with 65,000 miles on it at the end of July in Tennessee. Can't help but wonder if you got my old car.

Did you have a PPI inspection done before buying the car? I suppose they wouldn't be able to detect something like this? Now you have me worried about my 2002 Targa I bought in May with 80k miles on it... I swear this forum is causing more harm than good... =)

Ouch!

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Sorry to hear that but you mean he found timing guide bits or actual parts of the timing chain?

BUMMER

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The information can be helpful; worrying never changes any outcome. We stopped going to a cancer survivor's support group because every time a "survivor" was no longer with us it would set my wife to worrying that she'd be next. The truth is that only people with cancer or their caregivers attended the group, so really, what kind of news would we expect to be typical? Forums are biased and here we have many more posts about "help" or "I think this is broken" and "I think this might break". One thing that helps me avoid anxiety over 996 ownership is to drive them. Took the C4S for a drive to nowhere for a couple of hours today, what a pleasure. I also hold the unsubstantiated belief that the best way to avoid many problems with these cars is to drive them. I have had very few issues with my C2 and until the C4S arrived the C2 was driven every single day. Enjoy your red beauty!

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I'm interested in this too. Also, even if the engine has to come apart, why can't the problem be fixed instead of a full rebuild? No one wants to fix these engines anymore because there is more money in a rebuild?

We all love Jake Raby but take his word with caution He ALWAYS suggest a rebuild, that is what he sells. Why would he take the risk of telling you, you are fine run with it when he can pocket $10k and the customer thank him at the same time... I had piece of timing chain GUIDE in my oil pan like everybody else and he told me based on pictures that a rebuild was needed. I have been driving my car for two year including track days and it runs like a clock Rabby suggest this to every worry wart out there. Don't let the IMS madness cloud your judgment, or be swayed by people who feed on it. considering the price of rebuild just drive it, if it blows up, the rebuild will cost always the same. could be worst but with the cost of these cars, preventive $10k maintenance are not worth it. Confirm exactly what he found ... metal piece, plastic ?

Philooo I am in your corner on that statement. Jake the vulture is hovering over the 996 pages waiting to dive down and clean up the mess. IMS means IN MY Sky rocket (cockney slang for pocket) to Jake haha. He must pay someone to watch these pages for IMS and he swoops. His eyes must go like slot machines spinners with the dollar sign on each. haha. BTW Not everyone loves Jake Raby.. or even likes him for that matter. JRRHDMUST./....I wouldn't believe any mechanic who said that they found crap in my oil pan UNLESS I was standing there watching them drop the pan. I bet you were at home watching your television as he dropped the pan. Maybe he found the crap it on his bench. haha. If you weren't scared about the IMS before, I bet you are since you took your car to Jake. Quite honestly you must have more money than sense. BTW that's only IMHO.

I don't think you would be able to drive the car to any shop with bits of the timing chain floating around in an engine. These engines are not double chained so it would have crapped out as soon as a chain comes apart.

I contacted Jake about a IMS Solution on a 2001 c2 with 28,000 mile and no issues He suggested a rebuild was the only thing he would Warantee , I inquired about A mechanic in Florida who may be able to install his "The Solution " Mr Raby told me only mechanics who had attended His invitation only seminar , Could do this job and in his opinion , No Mechanic in the Satate of Florida qualified To attend snd he gave me a long version of why Florida Porsche Mechanics were do ill informed . Really in the state that hosts Daytona 24hr and Sebring 12hr not to mention the famous Brumos Porsche Team. ???

I'm not here to defend Jake by any means and those of you that's been around know my history. To be fair though, jake does have a sterling rep to uphold and this is one of the safest and guaranteed ways to accomplish and sustain his track record. He's seen several modes of failure that not everyone knows about which "could" contribute or lead to a failure, which could theoretically be tied into worn timing guides. The way I see it, he's damn if he does and damn if he doesn't. Imagine if he just replaced the timing guides and cleaned up the sump and pan and considered it "fixed". If the engine were to fail later, the owner could basically post all over the Internet on how jake does crappy work. Sort of a catch 22 IMO. I know Jake will never do half a$$ work or anything questionable so if you're willing to take a chance on just replacing the timing guides, you're probably better off taking it elsewhere IMO. If you're lucky, that fix could last you the lifetime of the car. Who knows?

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Lots of people in Florida could install an IMS Solution, any professional shop can buy the components from SS Auto Parts. The fact that no shops in Florida have become Certified Installers of the IMS Solution is just that- fact. Shops attend our classes through WTI, or my engine rebuild school here and those who impress us are invited to begin the Certified Installer process, which requires an evaluation. Sorry, but I won't put my reputation and the reputation of my products in the hands of just anyone with a tool box. I don't care who they are, what they have done, or what their name is- until they pass my evaluation they don't get the Certified Installer status. That said, here is what we found in the oil sump of the engine the original poster spoke about. This is clearly a piece of a timing chain roller. How do we know? Well, we've only seen it on 33 documented occasions thus far. The piece of chain we found is much like this one: (the only difference is this piece made it through a scavenge pump where it was flattened, but not before it locked that scavenge pump, broke the exhaust camshaft drive and resulted in 6 bent exhaust valves on bank 1 of the engine) That came from this chain that we also caught minutes before it snapped in half: And here is the collateral damage that occurred from this one: Now, these are two more jobs that came in last week, and the week prior that we were not able to catch in time. Each of them had extensive collateral damage stemming from the loss of valve timing. This one came to us from Florida.. It was repaired in less that two weeks and was just dyno tested today, it will ship home next week. And this one was actually local to us. Now, before the opposition gets their panties in a wad, hear this: 1- This engine is NOT going to be rebuilt! We do not rebuild engines, our engine reconstruction program is pretty far removed from a "rebuild". 2- The original poster's engine will simply be disassembled and repaired, at our level of proficiency this is a straight forward process that can be done in a timely manner at less than 1/2 cost of my reconstructed engine. We repair engines that are condemned by dealers and other shops routinely. 3-This is a fairly low mileage engine, it does not need more than the timing chains replaced; but while we are there we will update all the rod and main bearings as well as welding and pinning the IMS assembly, replacing all chain guides and replacing the intake valve seats which we KNOW are a problem with this model year engine. we will also fully freshen up the heads with new valve springs, 3 angle valve job and a CBM surface finish. 4- I DID NOT TRY TO UPSELL THE ORIGINAL POSTER ON THIS SERVICE!!!! 5- I told him that we found the foreign object debris in the oil sump, halted the processes and put the engine back together so he could come pick the car up. He wasn't going to owe us a dime, and IF he decides not to move forward he can come grab the car Monday and he still won't owe us a dime. 6- If a PROPER and EXHAUSTIVE PPI had been done on this car this piece of material would have been found. Now, chances are that the PPI inspector would not have a clue as to what that piece of material actually is, because they don't see broken engines everyday, but they would have found it. 7- These are the things that I preach in my classes that a poster above mentioned and these are the things that I want to pound into the heads of any Certified Installer of my product. I tell each and every person I interface with professionally with these engines to pull the sump plate, because it is the window into the soul of the engine- period. The sump plate holds many truths about whats inside the engine, because debris must pass through a screen and through the engine oil pump to make it into the oil filter! The sump attracts debris, just like any "oil pan" on any engine that has even been built. 8- Actually I NEVER suggest a rebuild, because thats not what we do- my reconstructed engine starts at 20K and its not for everyone when the price of these cars have plummeted so badly. Most reconstructions that we do are WANTED by their owners and they sell the practice to themselves. For an issue like the original poster has I would not recommend a reconstruction, because he doesn't need it. If I had to guess, he probably wants to see his car before July of 2014, which is when he would receive it if it were to become a part of my reconstruction program and got in today. 9- This year we will see 6-8 times the amount of preventive measure vehicles and extensive engine repairs over what we will see for engine reconstructions. These reconstruction jobs are secondary to my R&D practices and we only create 24 engines per year. Each of these are prepared, machined, balanced, assembled and installed by the same pair of hands and the same mind. I have not created a mass production engine rebuild facility- if I did we'd be just like everyone else. 10- Don't challenge my integrity, your statement is not warranted and completely unsubstantiated. The statement is also accusatory and just plain abrasive. Have I ripped you off? have you read about me ripping anyone else off? If so, where is the link? Are you just another vendor hater that can't see the fact that if we hadn't created our components and procedures that many of you here on these forums would have your cars populating the junkyard with no possibility for retrofitting an IMSB? When we extracted the first bearings, dealerships didn't believe it and for two years they were still telling people that the IMSB could not be serviced! All of that said, we have done our job. We qualify each and every engine to receive our products, else we will not carry out the processes. We've packed up 7 cars so far this year and shipped them home after we found another of the 24 modes of documented failure imminent within the engine. Any of those engines, or the one in question here could have failed after our procedures and we would have been engaged in a finger pointing exercise. When this happens it impacts our reputation and also kills the credibility of the products that we invent, develop and just happen to install as well. When we have an issue its much different than some local job shop that buys parts and installs them, because these are our parts in every way, they are installed with the tools and processes that we have developed as well. If this engine had been retrofitted by a typical shop that does not deal with engine death daily they would not have pulled the sump and would not have found this. Like others in this thread they would say "the car drove here just fine, so it must not have anything wrong with it". Well, they would have retrofitted this engine and it would have failed and they'd probably end up in a lawsuit, and honestly they should, because they are not proficient enough to be working at this level. Here we are very proficient with these engines. We see failures every day and we see them from all across North America and the World. I am so confident in our initial hypothesis concerning this form of imminent failure that I will carry out all the work to the original poster's engine for free if we pull this engine apart and do not find the failing timing chain. This is not an exaggeration, and I invite a verifier from these forums to come here and sit with my technician while the engine is coming apart. He can go home when we find the bad timing chain roller. I have done this before, and if we are wrong, my loss will be his gain, and we'll also learn a lesson. Thus far when doing this I haven't ever been wrong, even when a UOA pointed out that an engine had worn rod bearings and it didn't have any symptoms. So, one of you naysayers accept the challenge and come live in my world for 6 hours while this engine comes apart. If not, I'd stop making accusatory statements that me and my company are ripping off this Porsche owner. If you decide to come verify, I hope that you have thick skin; because you'll need it. You'll see 22 broken engines all apart from primary failures and you'll probably leave with a different point of view about what we do and what the M96 really is. We always qualify vehicles for preventive measures and we document the entire process, whether it is simple and straight forward, or if its dramatic like this one. This qualification process is how we have installed 300 documented, registered IMS Retrofit procedures and haven't had a single failure of an engine afterward. What we do might not suit those of you here on these forums, but it works, we are effective, we are on top and we do not fail. Last time I checked, this wasn't a popularity contest and I am only graded on my performance- The topic of this tread should be changed to: "Gambled and got lucky", because the original poster could be facing 2X the repair bill if this was not found. If I were him I'd go buy a lottery ticket. I'd do it right now. It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Teddy Roosevelt

Very well stated Jake.. Thank you!

If the Wright bothers didn't fly, there wouldn't be an airplane today? If you never pulled that first intermediate shaft bearing than no one would have done it?

I can't believe it took you this long to post. I was starting to think you were sick. The fact is we pioneered the IMS Retrofit components and processes. As much as you'd like to, you can;t take that away from us.

Subscribed. Boring Saturday night....

Well for the poster asking about the car it's Seal grey, with Porsche 2 piece rims. I was generalizing Jake did not suggest rebuild, but rather exactly as he indicated. Although, I have personally known auto shops to try and take advantage of people, I don't believe that is the case with Jake. There are numerous reasons for my trusting him, suffice it to say this is not my first rodeo and I do my homework. Jake spoke to me personally, and offered numerous times that I could come and pick up the car. With my personal integrity, I would never pass the car on to someone else. Secondly, I might be able to drive it for a while, but I would never trust the car. So Jake fixing it is my best option.

I would like to think I'm one of the more reasonable gearheads here. Yes, you were the first to have the resources and more importantly the ***** to do this but that doesn't mean other, in time, would not have come up with the same solution. Gaugeman69 and somewhat me, came with with the same thing as the Solution, months before it was announced. I still have the napkin dwawings/sketches and the bearing we were going to use in my engine repair. It's all in the thread, far away from this nutty forum, in the Canadian forum. Go have a look, it's called "I dragged home one of these". There is nothing wrong with more than one people coming up with the same idea, just don't make is sounds like I did and and no one else ever would. Go to the 928 forum and see how good the back yard engineering works there. Everyone shares their ideas, even if it's a radical one. You have a company to run and I understand that, I don't have those limitations. Do you still remenber how that used to be before it got all complicated? I'm one of the frew gearheads that understands where you are coming from. I'm going back to drinking.

I saw that and was impressed, but just about 3 months before that on another forum someone else beat you to it and posted it, too. That was over a decade after the IMS Solution was invented and we were already sitting back waiting the 33 months to receive our patent. The very first idea/invention/ development that I had for the M96 engine was the IMS Solution. The story is told pretty well in the Excellence feature article, or at least it should be, based on the extensive interview they gave Charles and I.. I have no limitations, owning my company offers resources, not limitations. This is how we can create our engines and not buy off the shelf parts, and how we utilize our own developments and processes to carry out these repairs and build turnkey engines. Over time someone would have had to have actually used their heads and came up with a fix, if not, that really spells the end of mechanical aptitude in today's world. Today if it can't be fixed or installed using a keyboard, people just don't get it.

I swear we did not make the connection to that Pelican post that had the oil fed ball bearing post. Yes, it gave me ideas, and you can see that in my thread, but the idea of the simple bearing came to use at the bar, shooting ideas between each other. Gugugeman even called me a chicken not going with it it but, I only am a shade tree gearhead and couldn't risk to test this idea with the only engine I can barely afford. Rest asure, I was happy when you annouced the release the Solution. It was all driven by pride that many brains can think alike, nothing more. When a solution to a problem is somewhat logical, other will come up with it too. It's only logical.....as Spok would say.....I'm watching the latest Star Trek right now.

Anyone who has extensive aircooled Porsche experience would easily come up with the plain bearing idea. Before we released the IMS SOlution I would pass it around at my classes just to blow minds and in every class I'd have 4-5 guys say that they had thought of the same thing. Some talk about it. Others do it.

Yes, yes....many talk about it any only a few do it but we were extremly close to pull it off onna whim. The ONLY limitation was the cost of a used engine. I could not affor a faliure of anything at all. My project was based on hopes and wishes and I gor very lucky that my engine was fixable.

Jake Will there be a certified shop in douth Florida anytime soon ?

I have a class in S Florida next month. If any attendees of that class impress me they may receive an invitation to begin the processes and evaluations. Becoming a Certified Installer isn't cheap or easy so not all of those who initially receive an invitation will make the grade.

"The Lion doesn't concern himself with the opinion of the Sheep..." Apparently, it does.

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Only when the opinions are misconstrued, off base or completely incorrect. My initial response was to set the record straight- thats all.

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Then somehow it magically starts sounding like an advertisement and sermon, usually after the first paragraph or so...

I think any time a man is called a vulture, he is owed an opportunity to respond. Rob

^ very much agreed.

Why do some of you continue to bust Jakes @#$!@, when all hes ever done is help the 996 community and run an honest business? While I do agree that the "solution" is overkill and too expensive, its his business to market and sell as he chooses. If people dont like it, just replace the stupid IMSB with every clutch change and consider it PM. Jake please take the critics as people just being haters and jealous of your Porsche research and innovations. Remember there are many of us on here that are "gearheads" like Imre said that really enjoy figuring things out, learning from others, and trying alternatives. Guys STOP GIVING JR A HARD TIME BEFORE HE WASHES HIS HANDS OF THE WHOLE 996 FORUM! JMHO of course, with the usual disclaimers.

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And any time that man says I don't need to respond, then promptly does with a lot of verbiage (some being diarrhea) then maybe he should reevaluate.

There is another "club" that has a saying: "It's hard to be humble when you are the worlds finest!" Jake you are doing great!

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I earned that title, too.. Passed through the portals and nothing has been the same since. That said, the original poster can feel a little better now, knowing that someone else also "gambled and won" on their IMS SOlution install that we were carrying out today. That is, until it also failed the pre-qualification evaluation with a significantly important component found in the oil. This makes two in a row that we've "downed", but both had zero symptoms and could have been retrofitted if someone did not qualify engines before carrying out their procedures. So.. who can name that part? Its been munched by a scavenge pump and part of it is still missing, but anyone that knows the inside of these engines could tell what it is even blindfolded. The owner of this car just had us install an IMS SOlution in his other 996 two weeks ago, which passed the evaluation just fine. I am not looking forward to his return phone call and having to tell him that though the engine ran fine on the way here, and has no symptoms, that it is failing. BTW- Overkill doesn't exist. At least not in the crazy world that I populate.

is that a piece of the double row IMS bearing ?

Hi Jake, do you think these would have been caught by the IMS guardian if there was one? Looks like they would from their sizes.

The IMSG would have more than likely given an alert for this if it had been employed. This is not a piece of IMSB if it were we would not have halted the procedures and just retrofitted it.

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Make sense and thanks for confirming, Jake.

I agree with Hurdigurdiman , and speak from experience , a bad one !!

That's not a piece of the oil cooler is it? Jake has been stand up on every account I have ever read about. Not once have I read anyone that had any service from him post he was ripped off. So to those that say stuff like that, with the usual uninformed self righteous indignation, I say grow a pair. Your comments are embarrassing.

Looks like a valve keeper! Whats that at the top edge of the pan?

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Bingo! What's left of one. One of the valves in this engine is only being retained by a single keeper.

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Well said!

This doesn't automatically mean it came from one of the valves. Possible that someone dropped one and never bothered to go after it.

Heh, no, and there's no evidence proving that God did not miracle it there, either, but Occam's razor suggests otherwise.

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We must quantify that the valve keeper either is, or is not missing. When working with engines we assume nothing and quantify everything. If this keeper is indeed missing it won't be the first time we have seen this with a symptomless, running engine. I see people scatter parts all the time because they assemble things with assumptions. Just because it runs, doesn't mean that its healthy. I'd hate to know that the factory was this sloppy, but then again I have found missing O rings from 9a1 engines with 4,165 miles on them since they left the factory. It never even had an oil change before I took it apart to transform it from a 3.4 to a 4.2. It had cylinders wearing like mad and all components that receive boundary layer protection were seeing signs of wear from a lack of oil film strength due to aeration. Here it is..

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I am sorry to hear of your misfortune as it sounds like you indeed purchased my old 996. Mine was in fact Grey with a Grey interior. If you want I could probably find the VIN somewhere and then we would know for sure. It was a solid car for me over 3 years of ownership and 15,000 miles of driving. Even the Porsche dealership said it was in great shape when I had the 60,000 mile service done. Only thing to go bad on it was the battery which was 5 years old at the time, and I bought 2 new key fobs for it because the old ones were worn out.

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wow is that of the 9a1 with 4k on it?

Yes, 9a1. 2012 Cayman R.

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All the damage in 4k because of a missing o-ring. This is insane...

Car was never tracked. Never had the oil changed from the factory. This is not just a missing O ring, this missing part impeded the oil from being de-aerated. That meant a huge loss of boundary later protection and a total loss if film strength.

Right. It seems not a very forgiving (let alone robust) design. Even if the o-ring was there, it could still leak naturally as the engine ages...

Possibly, but that's unlikely. If the O ring would have been there the wear we have documented would not have been there.

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Agree but I was takling about long-term like after a few years/miles down the road.... So there's no vacuum leak detected by the DME even when the o-ring is absent? So anything short of a physical inspection would not catch such defect?

No vacuum there.. This is the supply side of oil from the scavenge side of the pump to the de-aerators. This is secondary waste oil being returned from the cylinder heads. We'll see what long term effects are for the 9a1. We have 3 years of development in the 9a1 platform thus far and have already found the weak points and strong points, others will follow suit as time progresses.

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Thanks for the explanation. Hopefully you didnt' find any major flaws in the design. I'm still hoping to upgrade to 9a1 someday

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Was this something that the warranty or Porsche couldn't cover?

^ Yup, same question here. Seems like PNA should have been on the hook for the diagnosis and subsequent remediation, given what the diagnosis revealed.

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I think if it failed and was sent back to Porsche it would have been covered. Who knows how long it would have taken to fail though and some people don't drive enough. That is a big mistake that Porsche let go out the door. Really saddens me that their production has dropped to this level. I guess they are too busy building Cayennes.

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Ever drank a milkahake with a broken straw??.... This is the same thing.

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Good analogy

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Better analogy is to use water as you can easily drink milkshake with a broken straw.

My Car just came back from Jakes. Say what you want, I have experienced the man and his service. Absolute first rate. I've been around performance shops for a very long time and this man and his shop went out of their way by far to impress and satisfy me. Speaking of warrantee I wouldn't warrantee any part of the M96 engine. If he rebuilds it he knows it is put together and modified the way it should be and then he will cover it. I wouldn't do it any other way myself. Obviously you are doing it right Jake, your reputation and track record speaks for itself.

^^^ Missing the point.^^^

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Stating his direct, first hand experience. Missing the point or not, (and whether you like it, or not) its his opinion, based on his direct experience. Not hearsay, speculation, or vaporware. I know you hate to hear these success stories, and you can't wait till I do have that one guy that can't be pleased and becomes vocal. You'll capitalize on that and trust me, I will be ready.

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I don't think you get the point either. No one that I know questions your ability to build an engine. That was never in dispute. You charge a premium for a good product. If money is no object you are a good choice. The issues are your marketing techniques. That is all.

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Now you are missing the point too.

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Perhaps your ability to convey the point is just as lousy as our ability to perceive it. So what is "the point"? From what I can tell, you and the gaugeman are like two peas in a pod.

It always amazes me when people downgrade the efforts of professionals. I have come to the conclusion that most people cannot tell the difference. In the car repair business their are the 5% ers, these are the people that have the training, experience and gift that make them stand out above the rest. I interview and hired a lot of technicians in my 30 years in the business, 45% are good line mechanics, 50 % should find another line of work and 5% are hands down above the rest. I have never met Jake,but I know he is in the 5% he is not one to take fools lightly and is confident in his ability's. His business model offers him a unique position that most shops don't have the time for, he can delve into the root cause of problems and not just effect a repair. Don't confuse his advice with all the opinions that are thrown about. This approach does not fit all customers, but it also avoids misunderstandings.

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Very rarely is my point not conveyed clearly. My perception is quite accurate as well.

This whole thread is a joke. "Hey! I had the same idea for a revised bearing before you and scratched it out on a table napkin with my 3 best buds!" Yeah, who gives a flying f*ck! Jake provides solutions. pure and simple. Don't like them. don't use them. Don't like his marketing (what you call scare tactics), choose to ignore him. This is a public forum. Everyone had an opinion. If Jake's engine reconstruction was $5k he would never see his family as he would be busy clear into the next decade.

I've had ideas for products that have hit the market years later. The couple of times I've seen it, I recognize that this is the cost of being too busy/lazy/whatever. History provides plenty of examples of simultaneous development/invention. The guys like Edison and Westinghouse, who are both brilliant and hard-working enough to ensure they capitalize their inventions, are the ones that go down in the history books. The guys who scribble ideas on napkins are lucky to get a footnote.

Beating your chest and repeting that if I didn't invent this or that, and then saying everyone should be thankfull otherwise these engines would not be around is an interesting concept. THEN when others say they had the same idea (and can prove it without a doubdt) before this product was anounce, throws a wrench in Jake's god complex point of view, all hell breaks loose. When I asked if he didn't come up with the idea means that no one ever would, it resulted in silence. How gives a $hit??? Gearheads like me do.

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We lost an entire space shuttle and her crew due to an ineffective/defective O-ring design... part cost does not equal importance... O-rings have critical roles. Terrible to see a QA miss from the factory like that.

Back to the the original topic, OP got a big surprise he wasn't expecting in engine repairs which involved unforeseen costs. He took it to one of the top guys in the Porsche repair biz and had an excellent experience(as most have in service, support, product). Now he can sleep easily and look forward to driving it every day. Glad it all worked out OP. Bottom line is people might have issues with his marketing technique, self boasting, scare tactics, etc.(I certainly do at times). But if you have the money and want one of the best, I don't think anyone is gonna walk away disappointed(or even ripped off). Some people would rather pay extra for that type of security and track record. Different strokes for different folks...

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Yes you are! What possible point could you have in your never ending quest to drive away the single most important contributor to this & any forum for M96/97 engine owners? Not to mention a paying sponsor!

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Seriously? Time to take your meds.

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Just when I thought you too were incapable of making a positive contribution to this thread ya came thru, thanks.

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I appreciate the kind words. To some people confidence can come across as boasting, and I get that. I am completely biased on all these topics because I see and deal with the worst of the worst and we very seldom work with simple issues. Funeral Directors see death daily and thats what they work with. They have to become de-sensitized to it and we do the same with engines. Each week we never know what new thing we are going to find. Heck in the past few days its been less about failure and more about huge new potentials from my CNC cylinder head profiles. Here's a little sample of what is to come :-) Stock 3.6 M97 on the left. R51 CNC on the right. Development is so much more fun at levels well over 425HP!

This looks like an exciting thread. Why all the bashing? Is it about car issues? Or people issues? - Sorry, been using the search function for a few days now, reading a bunch of boring threads to get to know my new car. Found this thread, it was way more exciting than learning about my light switch issue.

I don't have an issue paying Jake's asking price for his product. It helped me sell my 996 in a 24hrs. I have pissed away more on stupid mods with my 996 than that IMS bearing...

I was in the bashing camp prior to needing him. He helped me out. My response is not meant to blow smoke up his a$$. The guy knows these engines........period. I'm with Chao.

I'm only a week into 996 ownership (2002 C4) with 90k miles. The car cost about $18000 so is very much at the cheap end. I have my fingers crossed but I only live 10 miles from the famous Hartech in the UK who routinely carry out full rebuilds and upgrades. I bought a cheap car as I factored in a $10k rebuild if it ever fails on me. If it does then I'll have a sorted engine in a car that cost $110,000 when new so is well worth the money to fix it, after all it's still that same car. Lee

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That was never in question.

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This is one of those rarities we see from Jake. No pics of broken obliterated pieces for once. You really need to find another color though so newbies do not confuse these with $ex toys. Especially when you label the one that has a bigger impression with the word "in". Lol.

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Pete was even kind of concerned about divulging his Rennlist identity to me while I was helping him.. He didn't do it at first:-) That was funny for sure, and now he has been on both sides of the fence. Within the next year my online presence will diminish to zero in terms if forums and etc. I am looking forward to the change.

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The O ring was's defective it was used outside of its design envelope. The engineer was telling everyone that the freezing temps the night before will make the seal leak but the higher ups were so confident in the shuttle's track record that they ignored it. Google GROUPTHINK and how it is a perfect example for Challenger. I'm willing to bet that the intermediate shaft bearing approval at Porsche had some of this happening too.

The O ring thats in this position in the 9a1 has no problem with doing its job... The issue is is wasn't installed at the factory. I guess someone forgot to program that robot.

Actually my point was it's not a forgiving design given that the o ring will eventually leak at some point of the life of the car and when that happens, it's not detectable and will ruine the engine silently. I have already seen two leaking o rings on my engine, the brake booster vacuum connection to the intake and the purge valve to the throttle body. At least those will not kill the engine and are detectable (oil sweating and air leak noise). Hopefully this o ring in question is not difficult to be inspected and can be replaced easily.

Pull the sump plate and you are staring right at it. Remove one fastener and the component can be removed to facilitate O ring replacement or placement.

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Nice. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and finding, Jake.

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Most certainly a design flaw was uncovered and an attempt to rectify was made. I cannot think of one decision made at any automotive manufacturer (that I have been privy to. Which is a few) that had the potential of 10% failure rate (which in domestic automotive numbers is HUGE) where they said just continue using the existing method. They would always try to fix the problem. But they also wouldn't stop production waiting for a solution. Now Porsche is a different story as the total numbers are lower, so a larger failure rate is 'more' acceptable. Notice I don't say it is acceptable, just more acceptable. The difference is the catastrophic nature of the failure. In almost any other system it wouldn't have been an issue. Porsche has a way of forgetting that a vast majority of north american drivers are coffee drinking, engine lugging, commuters. They may have missed that metric when testing the engine.

Then the M97 got a 26% larger IMS bearing to increase surface speeds of the ***** so the "engine lugging" didn't matter as much. But, the caveat is the higher speed is only a positive at low engine speeds, on the track the tables turn between the M96 and M97 bearing.

So jrrhdmust did not get his engine "rebuilt"/"reconstructed" but fixed (timing chain) and modded for more reliability (update all the rod and main bearings as well as welding and pinning the IMS assembly, replacement of all chain guides and replacement of the intake valve seats + new valve springs, 3 angle valve job and a CBM surface finish), right? Which is much cheaper than a rebuild, that was actually never recommended, right? So how much cost the fix and how much cost the mods?

The engine has been extracted from the car and will be coming apart Monday. The "mods" really are not modifications, they are really proactive updates that are being done because the labor to carry them out is free. This labor is free because the same amount of time is being charged to facilitate changing the timing chains whether old parts are reused Vs new parts being installed. This job will cost less than 1/2 what my reconstruction would cost, primarily because the Nikisil cylinder upgrades are not being carried out, which equate to 6,500.00 alone for components and procedures.

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I may not agree with everything Imo000's posted in this thread, but I will agree with the above about the Challenger mishap.

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Kinda like the tail between the legs syndrome. Very much appreciate the help you handed out. Car is running great!

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You've been a cool dude. I like working with you :-) Last year I just thought you were another keyboard warrior, dick. LOL!

Jake gets the Bad and the Ugly, not much of the Good. What should we expect his POV to be? I, and many others are certainly glad he participates on this forum. We should consider ourselves lucky to have someone with SO MUCH 996 engine experience here, don't take that lightly.

^+1 If you walk into a store with 100 items, and only like 1 do you yell at the clerk for stocking the 99 things you dont like? No you buy the 1 item, or shop else where. Same applies here. If you appreciate someone's input/advice/knowledge then thank them. If not, move along. To debate view points on such cars is a luxury many will never know

Another silent o-ring problem are the ones on the M96 oil cooler. If you've ever pulled it, you know what I mean.

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Ditto

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Ok but I don't know how much your reconstruction costs... Are we talking 5k? 8k? 10k? 15K? for the repair of jrrhdmust ?

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Price of admission begins at 20K for an elective build. Most are 22-24K these days.

The engine was pulled apart today. After inspection of every single chain roller we finally found where the debris was generated from. Its conclusive, the chain was failing. As I had stated earlier, would probably occur we also found a scavenge pump that has "consumed" the offending piece of debris and ran it through the super tight internal clearances, thus creating secondary collateral damage. This usually leads to a failed pump that will break and created tertiary damages that lead to further failure, to include retarded exhaust valve timing on that particular bank of cylinders. Luckily this did not occur and the piece of debris only was delivered back to the oil sump, where we found it during our pre-qualification process for the IMS Solution. The damage didn't end there, the rod bearings were heavily worn and appear to have been the victim of detonation. Most all were worn through their dermis level of materials and a few were worn all the way into the copper layer. We fully documented the teardown and I will share pics later. Funny thing is, I didn't have any Rennlist Volunteers agree to come spend their time along side us while we took it apart. Kind of disappointing. Pictures posted to facebook later today. Nothing feels better than saving an engine from mass catastrophe based on experience and a few clues.

Yep. "Gambled and won". This is far from a "loss". Here's the secondary, collateral damage the piece of timing chain created when it passed through the scavenge pump And here's the rod bearing.. It was just worn.. And here's a whole bank of worn rod bearings, the knock sensors will also be replaced, because they obviously weren't effective. And the anti-wear coating of this piston is also compromised, this would have led to a failed cylinder in the future And that piston had some companions, incidentally they were the same pistons that had the worn rod bearings. Detonation anyone?

Thanks for sharing. The detonation stressed the the chain and caused the faliure?

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No detonation would only create the rod bearing wear. This engine had compound issues, all of them with no symptoms. What leads to most of these issues is poor boundary layer protection and too long of service interval. Note that the other rollers in that vicinity are also starting to wear. This leads me to believe that the heat treat on this chain wasn't proper, and a lot of variables lead to this. Few failures have a single contributing factor.

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Ah! Peace across the 49th Parallel. Very nice, indeed! By '... too long of service interval', do you just mean oil replacement intervals or do you mean more ...? Martin

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Jeeze, you do great work but at $18K for reconstruction was steep, at $20K it gets crazy, at $24K it just makes no sense and is a bit insane IMO. But, lucky for you, the world is littered with the insane

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Its all insane.

Thanks for the informative pictures and explanation. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but were you saying you thought the detonation was due to a breakdown of the oil (i.e. poor boundary layer protection)? I've never heard of poor lubrication being a source of detonation, short of cylinder wall damage acting as an ignition source. Can you explain how the two are linked? Thanks, Shawn

Poor film strength will allow the oil to shear more easily. Detonation will "squeeze" the oil from the journal and allow metal/ metal contact and wear the rod bearings. Detonation is equal to hitting these rod bearings with a 10 pound hammer thousands of times per minute.

Detonation from what? bad gas?

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Who knows? One bad knock sensor could have led to this. Or one track event with crappy oil.

Okay, thanks. So you weren't saying detonation was due to film strength, you were saying the poor film strength allowed the damage to the bearings to occur. Any idea why he/she had detonation to start with? -Nevermind, you answered my question above.

Given the amount of internal, and not visible to me, damage - I am extremely glad that I selected Jake's IMS solution, as opposed to just swapping out the IMS bearing myself, or using a different shop. It could have really cost me, had Jake not caught it! The fly in the ointment is I have only owned the car for a month and put about 2k miles on it. : (

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So, crappy oil left in too long (among other contributors).

Not knowing the entire history of the car its hard to say anything conclusively. Theres always the possibility that it was just a junk chain that had a soft roller. In that case nothing would have kept the roller from failing.

Do the piton tops have any sign of detonation(pitting/craters)?

A very small amount. That's common with 4 valve engines. The wear is directly under the beam of the rod, where it's always at with high cylinder pressures or detonation.

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I get that right now it probably feels pretty crappy, glass half, or near empty - but I predict that after you have some more seat time you will see the glass is full. You will have the opportunity to enjoy a heck of lot more than 2k miles and not be burdened with the anxiety of the ultimate "what if".

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+1.

I thank Jake for his service - I shipped my car when it came off the CPO warranty from Rhode Island to Georgia. I had the IMS service done, as well as other preventative items like the water pump and clutch (as well as other items) replaced while everything was out. The customer service was great, and I was happy with everything. I just wish I still had my car - had to sell due to a medical issue and loss of income

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I don't see that damage as that chain fragment running through that pump. But I could be wrong. I would like to see the housing that pump went into. How does a chunk that big get into the pickup with a mesh on it? While I agree that detonation can cause the bearing wear, so can a lot of other possible problems. Curious how you know the knock sensors are not working? They are pretty simple devices. Doesn't the ECM store knock incidents? How do you test knock sensors? My guess is the oil ran low (maybe more than once) that would also cause the damage you see on the skirts. And certainly would affect the chain. 150k for a car is crazy too. But yet they still sell lots of them.......

The only scavenge pumps that have wire mesh are very late that incorporate the power brake booster vacuum pump into them. Scavenge pumps pre 2005 do not have this. The chunk of the pump that's damaged has an imprint of the timing chain roller that we found in the sump that matches perfectly. I had said from the beginning that I expected to find this, but I expected the pump to be broken. Typically when this happens the debris locks the pump solid and gives a symptom, in this case that did not occur and the piece just returned to the sump through the secondary oil delivery channels and through the swirl pots and into the sump. Now you see why we pull swirl pots in every pre- qualification inspection to look for debris inside them too. Some debris will stay inside them and not be evident in the sump. As for the wear on the rod bearings: We were going to change out the bearings anyway, because we were already there. I am now concerned more with ensuring what led to this is remedied more than anything else. That means new knock sensors at minimum. Perhaps someone down the line refused to use premium grade fuel? All that matters is the issue was discovered, was properly diagnosed and the owner did the right thing. We were then able to find others issues looming and remedy those for no additional costs. We will be measuring the big end and small end sizing of the connecting rod housing bores to ensure they have not been impacted by detonation as well. If they were, we will change out the rods.

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This is the first thing to go through my mind as well. A piece that big should have locked it up solid. Interesting.

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This is a rare instance where the debris was ingested at the very edge of the vane and it pushed to one side more than the center of the vane. This found the debris making its way into the aluminum housing and then getting ejected from the pump housing and into the flow of secondary oil, back to the swirl pots. The damage was limited to one portion of the pump, so that screams that the debris went in and out fast and didn't make it through a full cycle of the pump. If it had, the pump would have seized for sure.

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The original owner of my car said it was $130K out the door back in 2000 when he bought it. The 991 4S Cab in the new Porsche dealership had a price tag of $160K+ on it, and that's BEFORE the 13% tax we pay around here, bringing the total to over $180K out the door.

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Hence the OP actually got lucky!

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Whats crazy is buying a brand new '14 GT3, driving it till the first snowfall (less than 2K miles) and then shipping it down to Flat 6 Innovations. We'll be tearing it apart for no reason other than to make it something the factory didn't... Potentially a 4.5 liter! We'll only know how big we can go once we machine the factory cylinders away :-) Thats crazy... I love it. :-)

Will those pistons be re coated or time for a new set?

Can you show a pic opf the swilr pots?

Nope.. I have checked out for the week.. Parked in my RV at Petit LeMans. Anyone who wants to meet feel free to PM me. :-)

I found the VIN for my old car and PM'd the OP. Hopefully he gets back to me in regards to if he does in fact have my old car. If so, I will post what I know about the car as far as it's use care, and maintenance for the time I had it and my understanding of the vehicle before my ownership. Maybe it will help in understanding why the engine was about to fail.

I finished the post procedure testing of the engine this week.. Very nice car that's now very strong, making north of 275 RWHP. Did your old car have carbon fiber interior accents? This one has a full compliment if them. Another one resurrected at Flat 6!

As Jake said I picked up the car yesterday. She really purrs, and pulls! The customer service was top notch with a genuine caring about the car and my satisfaction. Great great people! I am very satisfied with the work and the effort. I also love the fact that they gave me back boxes of parts, so I could see everything they replaced and why!

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So nice working with you, love that 996! Glad we saved it and glad that we were right!

Jake, you mentioned you had found a few issues already on the 9a1 engine. could you elaborate? Any failures too? thanks

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November 11, 2013 marks 4 years of development that we've already put into the 9a1 platform. The engine has taught us a ton as we have manipulated it into a 4.2L beast. In fact the very first 9a1 that we assembled was as large as the platform would support, 4.2 liters. Any issues we have found, (and are willing to divulge) will be covered in the Panorama feature article on the 9a1 engine that focuses on our developmental efforts. Here are the photos from yesterday's photo shoot here at Flat 6 Innovations :-) We have to be very careful when working with the newest offerings from the Fatherland... The engine you see here was built in March of 2013 ! Left is the 4.2L big bore fitted with our custom JE piston. On the right is the new 9a1 DFI stock 97mm piston, for a simple comparison.

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Yes Jake, I put a carbon fiber detail kit in the car as the factory 996 interior was a bit appalling to me. Thanks for the reminder though as I still have many pieces that I offered to the OP if he wants them. He wrote back and confirmed that he does indeed have my car. Here is the history the best I know: Some guy down in Florida bought the car new and kept it for less than a year and traded it back in with a few thousand miles on it. It was sold CPO to another guy I believe who kept it until about 21,000 miles. The person I bought it from got it then and it was again CPO. He was a British gentleman living in Georgia and was about 60 years old. Personally, I think he didn't really drive the car the way it was meant to be driven or take great care of it, but he did maintain it at the dealership and gave me the complete service history in a book which hopefully the dealer gave the current owner. I say this because the brakes were worn, the tires were not replaced together, the center console was scraped up from seat belt buckles, and the paint had many minor scratches and flaws. After seeing the damage to the engine, I wonder if he lugged the engine often. I took care of most of the cosmetic issues while I owned the car. It had about 51,000 miles on it when I bought it and 65,000 when I sold it. I replaced the battery, bought new key fobs, had the 60,000 mile service done at a Porsche dealership (they commented on how solid the car was and that the technician found nothing wrong), and had the brakes flushed in May or so of this year. Jake asked about fuel and I always use Premium fuel almost always from Shell or another reputable vendor. Never the cheap stuff. As for RPMs I usually shift at around 3-3,500 rpm and tried to always keep the RPMs above at least 2,000 or so while in gear. If there are any other questions, feel free to ask and I will try to help.

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I wonder if this had anything to do with the engine failure?

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Don't get me wrong, I seldom exceded 4,000 RPM in the car and rarely came near redline. The shifting at 3k and keeping revs above 2k or so was more to keep from lugging the engine and maintain the oil pressure.

I was thinking the opposite. I usually shift around 4k RPM and rarely let the engine go below 3k. Over 5k RPM is where the performance comes out in these cars. I hate to say it but the driving pattern you describe in your post may actually be "lugging".

I have to agree with Gonzo....

Always keep in mind that they test these cars driving fast, think Nurburghring and stuff, I don't think they are engineered well to drive slow lol drive it like you stole it

Its starting to add up now.

I don't want to sound too naive here.... but what is Range 1 ignitions and Range 2 Ignitions? I assume Range 2 is redline, but what is Range 1, and should I be turned off in buying a car if this number is too high?

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Get the latest edition of Excellence Magazine that outlined this in a special feature article... I'd quote you an answer but it's not in front of me.

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http://www.durametric.com/usedporschebuyersguide.aspx

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At part-throttle acceleration I wonder where the PDK and Tiptronic shift as well as hold RPMs while cruising. Seems automatics usually keep RPMs at a rather low range. I understand Porsche designed these engines to be capable on the track but I have doubts that they need to be revved halfway to redline just in order to maintain proper lubrication. In top gear at 80 mph the revs are around 3000 rpm. How many use 4th or 5th all the time to keep revs up higher on the highway? Seems like an excessive waste of fuel as well as wear and tear on the engine if the oiling system is effective enough to work properly at a lower RPM. This is rather important and I would love to see some definitive data on this.

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I keep an eye on the oil gauge, tach, and speedo, in that order. I have the LN oil adapter installed, and the oil pressure stays nice and high at even 2250 rpm, though I tend to keep it above that consistently.

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I tried this today, with gentle acceleration the Tip will change up at about 2200 rpm dropping to about 1700 rpm in the next gear up. The transmission will happily hold 5th gear at 2000 rpm. Oil pressure is a touch under 3 bar on a fully warmed engine. How does one define lugging? I would consider lugging to be one of two conditions: Overloading an engine at low rpm where there is insufficient oil pressure to maintain hydrodynamic lubrication. Running an engine in too high a gear for the available torque such that the engine exhibits obvious signs of stress, such as jerkiness and/or knocking, when trying to accelerate. This is far less common in modern vehicles due to the engine management systems. My C4S Tip is a 3400 lb car which outputs 207 lbs-ft of torque at 2000 rpm (which incidentally is exactly the same torque as it outputs at 7200 rpm). In 5th gear it has an overall drive ratio of 2.80:1 The 2.0 litre Ford Focus is a 3000 lb car which has a peak torque output of 146 lbs-ft at 4450 rpm. In 6th gear in has an overall drive ratio of 2.84:1 Essentially the Focus at peak torque, has 30% less torque available to accelerate 12% less weight than the C4S at 2000 rpm. Would anyone suggest that the Focus was being lugged at 4450 rpm in 6th gear? So change ups between 2000 and 3000 rpm may not be in line with the ethos of the car, but lugging it; probably not! Well, got that off my chest.

"Lugging" to me at least only applies to manual owners.

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Do manual transmission cars have greater rates of engine failure?

Yes, it seems so but has anyone researched this?