uh oh - Sounded like coins in a dryer just before the 2003 C4 engine stopped - Update

This weekend I drove from Tucson to the Grand Canyon, hiked 7 miles down the South Kaibab to Phantom Ranch, had a steak dinner at the bottom, camped, hiked up 9 miles up Bright Angel Trail, got into my 2003 C4 with 11k miles and began driving home. I noticed that when i first turned on my Porsche at the Grand Canyon Park, it made a slight rattle from the engine, but barely noticeable, and certainly not noticeable when driving. The car drove perfectly home, and as I backed it into the garage, I had just cleared the door by inches, when it sounded like a bunch of coins in a dryer coming from the engine, it stalled suddenly, and all the lights came on. I attempted one restart, and nothing happened. (will not attempt anymore). After reading about engine's going kaput, based on that sound, I'm suspecting mine made it a whopping 11,400 miles. I'm having it towed to the dealer today and will know for sure soon. But it did sound severe. This is disappointing, but I am trying to also look at the good side and keep things in overall perspective: 1. I had a safe hike in the Canyon, 17 miles walked without incidents. 2. The 11 hour drive was accident free. 3. The car made it back home, quite literally, by about 3 inches beyond the garage door's clearance before the engine suddenly died. 4. It's still covered by Porsche certified pre-owned. I'll keep this forum updated on the engine diagnosis.

Sounds like the Intermediate shaft let go

sorry to hear this... please keep us updated on the situation.

Best part is Porsche will buy you a new (reman) engine and install it for you! Here is where you say "thank God for the CPO"! I hit 20k on my engine, and heard rattling in my exhaust (I hope) last night after a long run. Seems this is normal, relatively. But it did sound like coins in a dryer!

Wow! Glad you made it home. How many miles on the clock.

Sounds like your intermediate shaft. My experience: 2004 with X51 package, 30k miles, 4 years and 9 days old, ran like a top, IMS failed as I was pulling into a parking space. The night before it failed, I heard a very faint, hollow, ringing sound from the engine, kinda like a coin rolling around in a dryer before all the other coins fall out of the pants pockets. I'd pulled some of the sound deadening insulation from the rear of my car and doubt I would have heard it with the insulation in place. The good news: CPO (thank goodness, given that it was 9 days beyond the standard warranty); dealer covered it under warranty and apologized for taking two weeks (the extended time was due to PMNA asking the dealer to tear the engine down to verify the damage). The service manager told me the engine was completely destroyed. Hope you get the same nice treatment I got.

With the CPO you should be just fine. Hopefully the dealer will give you a nice loaner while they figure it all out. It is interesting that once again it is a garage queen that shows the problem. Makes me think I should consider selling my '99 with 96,000 miles since I no longer drive it everyday. I am worried what happens when I can't put at least 5,000 miles a year on it. My totally un-scientific observation and experience is that if you can't drive a Porsche at least 5,000 miles a year you should give it to someone who can, because below that amount of use is where most of the problems happen.

Oh man - for those of us that are out of warranty that just scares the **** out of me. On the bright side, I grew up in Flagstaff and have made that hike to Phantom Ranch probably 20 times. Really miss that part of the country now that I'm in "Upper Canada" Keep us posted on progress.

Wonder if I should bring my car to the dealer for a check on that noise I heard? Rattling around, but I thought it was exhaust related. I have an aftermarket warrany through next year, but I would hate to be stranded miles from home if the engine decides to blow up!

def have it checked out, at least there will be a paper trail to help you out...

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I'd like to know this too. I have some weird noticable sound from the back of my car while idle but goes away when I drive it. It drives perfectly normal and I am hoping its a bad catalytic or something.

Update: Dealer called, its an intermediate shaft failure. They are working with Porsche now to process the warranty claim and order a replacement motor. Sounds like ~2 weeks. I indicated to the advisor that being a Porsche CPO warrantied car, purchased direct from a Porsche dealer, and with no signs of car abuse (I don't abuse), should be a seamless claim. He said its seamless to us, but they have to do all sorts of paperwork on their end, adding 1-2 days to the overall job. Since purchasing my Carrera my driver window regulator wasn't dropping the window 1/8 inch, and I am pushing to have that covered (even if not included in CPO warranty) seeing the hassle factor of: 1. Motor blowing up at 11k miles on the clock. 2. Loosing the car for 2 weeks. 3. Possible depreciation impacts (not sure if it helps or hurts having a reman motor, but stories do tend to scare future buyers. And now my car has a story. wrt to CPO including Porsche's service for towing, that was very well handled. I called the 1-800 number, flat bed arrived in ~45 minutes, works with local Porsche dealer, very professionally handled. I shared how lucky I was that the car failed in the garage, as the day before I was in remote highways near the Grand Canyon. Operator said they bailed someone from Death Valley recently, doesn't matter how remote the site, they figure a way to essentially 'rescue you' and get you on your way. All in all, this experience shakes my confidence in Porsche Carrera motors - I read the endless debate on how often catastrophic failures occur, but in 25 years of ownership of Datsun, Nissan, Ford, Benz's, BMWs, Honda, Toyota, this had to be the first, and it had to be within 6 mos of ownership and it had to be in a model with only 11k miles... what does that say? I love the car, will get it back and drive the snot out of it (prior owner made it a garage queen, not I), and enjoy it while the CPO warranty holds, but once motor warranty starts to near end date will seriously consider refreshing to a newer 911 (If I so desire) to maintain coverage. I'm taking this in stride as in the scheme of life, its only a car, it is warrantied, and it will be just as fun to drive with a new motor as it was with the original one. But had I not had a warranty, boy, I'd be really ticked off with Porsche in absorbing $15k on a blown motor (while idling in garage!) with only frickin 11k miles on it.

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I've had both cats replaced CPO in the past year. They sounded like you have described. BTW, the stealership charged PCNA $1800 EACH time.

I just passed my 1 year mark of owning my first Porsche and being an avid reader/poster of this forum, here's what I've come to learn: -Remanufactured motor preferred: As ridiculous as this sounds, this is the reality. I actually got "lucky" because the 911 I fell in love with, thx to Ray S's good help, received a new motor at 13K miles. At first, it scared me, but having researched here, 'I've come to learn' that having a remanufactured motor is better than having the original especially if the original has been sitting around (low mileage, garage queen M96s). -There are a good number of owners who are enjoying their ownership experience whether garage queen or daily driver. But, as an owner armed with a bit more knowledge, no longer do I buy into arguments stating that because this is a forum, you're going to read up on more negative/catastrophic scenarios than what's actually occurring --> BS. I've spent similar amounts of time enjoying s2ki and m3forum and in neither of those forums do engine blow-up threads begin to approach the consistency and frequency of the M96 explosion story. Not even close. Now have these "tragedies" impacted the enjoyment of my M96 911? Hell naw. Why? 1) I have a remanufactured engine 2) I bought a warranty thru a Porsche dealership 3) I have the 3.6 4) I didn't buy a garage queen 911 I sympathize with you all because it can happen to the best of the 911s. All of us are here because we love our cars and if you're a normal lover, you take care of those things that you care deeply about. I'm sorry, fellas. This is why I can never single out Porsche engineers as being the best in the industry. Porsche has a spotty reliability track record. But I've come to learn through some of you guys (brainwashing?), the 911's idiosyncracies add to the ownership experience in an absurdly positive way. Just typing out loud here, Ben

thanks Ben, agree with the above. When I originally purchased the 'garage queen', I hadn't read so many posts - albeit on anecdotal data and no hard evidence I've seen - that these are more prone to catastrophic failures. I think the more important element is having warranty coverage or being able to accept a possible $15k bill. Yes, anything is possible with any make... but...the thought of having my Honda Accord's engine catastrophically die just doesn't even map into any scenario I would expect, not even now. I'd sooner expect to win the lottery. As for garage queen, now that I'm getting a reman motor, maybe in the end it wasn't the wrong way to go... that is, everything else about the car has seen less use, be it the electronics, the body, etc, so all things being equal I prefer a lower mileage 911 with reman motor then a higher mileage 911 with the same reman motor. Again, the key here was having the warranty. Since I plan to use my 911, going forward, its going to get miles put on it. If anything I'm really going to drive it that much more, as I'm uncertain about weather I plan to keep it beyond 18-24 mos when the warranty does expire... A couple thoughts / questions: 1. According to Porsche Tucson, the CPO warranty will continue on its original date, meaning I have 18 mos. Also, according to the dealer, the reman motor will get a full 24 mos. I plan to double check, but wanted to see if anyone knew definitively? 2. When getting a reman motor - what is the scope of what is changed? Are these part of it: Any part of the exhaust? All fluids (I would assume yes here)? MAF? 3. What does 'reman' motor really mean? Is it a new core with new parts? Used core, used parts? A mix? Are all reman motors by Porsche generally equal? As of this writing, is a reman motor based on a particular model year?

I'm not going to attempt to answer your questions as much of it will be speculation, but a question I have is this: I know of an '04 3.6 recenty crippled by the IMS catastrophe. I have an '02 and my motor got replaced in 2003. Logic would tell us that the '04 3.6 has the latest updates and likely has a better chance of having the latest and greatest as compared to my '02-'03 remanufactured motor. Perhaps the reman motors have been blueprinted or something along those lines, but I would think Porsche would concurrently introduce the updates in the original engines as they are being assembled? So in a sense, this '04 3.6 motor had the latest updates, yet it still blew up. How many cases do we have on Rennlist where someone's remanufactured motor blew? I wonder how the 3.6/3.8 997 engines are holdling up.

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Just to add to the anecdotal evidence, my car is a garage-queen, an '03 with 16K miles. However, so far no RMS and no coins in the engine! I think a lot of these 911s are hardly driven. There are lots of low mileage examples around, so even if there are 1% experiencing failures, and no correlation between high-miles/low-mile vehicles, you'd see a good number of low mileage models represented.

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I don't think you can draw any conclusions on whether reman engines are holding up better than factory built motors, without any data to support it.

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good luck with that engine bud

Perhaps it 's the law of averages that kicks in regarding the reduced frequency of reman engine grenading. Thanks Bernoulli. I have not heard of any, nor has the tech at the local dealership, nor the local indies that I talked to before buying my car (with replaced engine).

The million dollar question is, what does Porsche do exactly on these reman engines in that factory within the factory as described in Streather's book?

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The process to reman engines would basically be designed to reduce the amount of labour required to as little labour as possible. So you'd see, no custom work being done...they'd just replace a bunch of prescribed parts with new parts. Updated parts would hit the production line on new engines first before it goes toward service/reman engine.

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Thanks but don't need it. There's a good chance it'll hold up better than a reman.

This scares me. Usually these stories come from a 3.4 owner, not a 3.6. No one is safe!

Warranty is key for peace of mind, I think. I'd really love to hear the actual failure rate on the 996 engines from Porsche. Is it 1%, 5%, 15%? We'll never really know I guess. But if it is a small percentage, worrying is pointless.

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+1 easier said than done. Stefan

I think Porsche now only gives warranty on the new engine as long as the CPO remains which in this case the new engine will get 18 months. I read this on here some time ago. I had a 2004 996 that I bought new. I had 5k miles on it when the engine went kablooey. I got the "replacement engine". I was told by the regional rep from PCNA they do not recognize "reman" engines. He told me allegedly they simply make engines and pull the next one off the shelf. Anyway, i do not know how much truth there is in that. Anyway, i got the new engine drove it for a bit. I sold the car because I got a really fantastic offer on a 997S from my brother in law who was in a situation where he had too many cars. Anyway, the guy I sold me 996 to had no issue with the replacement motor. I was very up front about the engine replacement, gave him all documentation, etc. He has now put close to 30k miles on it without a hitch. I wouldn't be worried about the new engine. These are really great cars, and I know engien replacement seems like a big deal, and it obviously is a huge deal when you have no warranty. However, I do feel like these engines are well built and can withstand the test of time if dirven regularly and properly maintained. I plan on keeping my current 997S for the foreseeable future, and my warranty ends next year I think.

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I know it's on your mind, bud. We all know.

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I wouldn't trust any PCNA rep. I'm not sure they really care or would even begin to know. I take it the 997 3.8s are holding up just fine? I do hear they still have some of the RMS leaks, though not as common?

In hindsight, I think I got pretty lucky with my car. 1) reman engine installed about 2 months before I got my car in 2007, and got a price break because of it. 2) almost 2 years of warranty from PCNA on the engine 4) Extended warranty through 2011 (I already had a claim and it went through). On the engine warranty - my reman engine was installed in Dec 2006 and it was replaced under the extended warranty policy by the previous owner. My engine still got the full 2 year PCNA warranty.

Has anyone ever noticed how rarely this seems to happen on the road, at speed, and how commonly it happens on startup or idling before shut-down? It really makes you wonder about Adrian's comment about the cause of many of these intermediate shaft bearing failures.

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What's Adrian's comment? I must've missed that part.

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Hmmmm...........0W-40

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Page 182. I'm not going to summarize it, partly because I don't want to get attacked as the messenger.

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Viscosity is not mentioned.

Oil pressure is lowest at idle and non-existent at start-up. Good perspective. My oil pressure was always lower than I liked. But, the IMS should be one of the first things besides the crank to receive oil. I cant see it starving for oil, it must be something more to it.

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Of all people, you can handle the fire. Don't make me wait till I get home!

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Could you enlighten us as to why your research has led you to believe that a reman motor is better than an original?

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Buy Adrian Streather's book and search Rennlist. And while you're at it, renew your Rennlist membership.

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I've referenced those sources but did not come to the same conclusion that remanufactured engines are better than originals. I was hoping you could share with the group some unique insight I might have missed? Or is this another one of your fabrications/wishful thinking because you happen to drive a car with a remanufactured engine?

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Porsche tells you not to warm up the car, just drive off immediately...

It blows my mind that people are still running Mobil 0W40, even after being warned, over and over again. It provides little protection to bearings, especially at low oil pressures. Maybe those who have not made the oil change are waiting for more definitive proof? Like having their own engine crap out? But what do I know, I have never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. Where are the engine failures of those running a better oil?

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If you could prove any of this, you'd win some kind of Rennlist Nobel Prize. I wait with breathless anticipation.

nice new sig Bruce. Its kinda big though.

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Better?

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The size is nice but it needs to be brightened. The lines are too pretty to be ignored. Like this:

I would believe using 0w40 would actually offer more protection, as it is easier to flow and the oil would flow faster to get to vital engine parts when the engine is cold.

Flow is only one factor in the protection oil delivers. More important is the film strength, especially when your shafts are rattling around at low engine speeds and heavier loads. Each time a bearing is hit, it is another nail in the coffin of the engine. 0W40 does not provde the film strength needed in these conditions. People hear the noises, yet somehow think that metal to metal noises are not bad for the engine? Even those who are die hard Porsche fanatics....why would you use a lower quality oil like 0W40 when there are plenty of better oils on the Porsche approved list? Even if you have not seen enough evidence or opinions against the use of 0W40 to convince you, why would you risk using it when there are so many unanswered questions about it?

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You did not ACTUALLY mean lower quality did you???

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Thanks brother! Much obliged. I would hate to have the most boring 996 on the board be the one in the biggest avatar.

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Yes, I did. In this case, quality is defined as the oil's ability to perfrom as required to protect your engine. 0W40 does not do so as well as other oils. Therefore it is "lower quality".

Aw gee. Here we go again. Give it a rest, man.

I admire his tenacity Has anyone ever met this guy or know his background?

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I think his real name is Darth Vader...

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Nice car!!

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In other walks of life, they have a name for people who cling viciously to a rigid set of beliefs, absent proof, absolutely closed-minded to alternative points of view and unable to discuss the subject without becoming abusive. I don't think it's 'tenacious'...

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Ray S? JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1999Porsch911 knows his ****... I for one like one of his oil suggestion,... he has an insane amount of knowledge with our cars.

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why do you like it?

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I agree with that. His radiator fan mod is a great example.

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At lot of the time that seems to be the case. But the meltdowns and the refusal to substantiate claims always leave me a bit uncomfortable. I think he could probably be a very valuable resource, but I can't get past the attitude.

just to throw a little more oil on the fire (pun intended). Isn't this really irrelevant since the are literally dozens of oils (viscosities and brands) on the latest Porsche approved engine oil bulletin? I see 5W50 Mobil 1 listed as approved, and I don't see it mentioned where 0W40 is the "preferred" grade. I trust my tech who for the last 20 years builds & preps race engines along with maintaining dozens of street driven Porsches all day long and if he tells me to run 5W50 in the summer, I'm gonna listen to him.

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The 5w-50 is more viscous than 0w-40 at lower temps and higher temps. Mobil 1 5w-50 and 0w-40 are both listed in Porsche's approved oils list. What some of us are not understanding is 1999Porsche's "tenacity" in his claim that the 0w-40 is the inferior oil to the other oil weights listed: And I quote: "why would you use a lower quality oil like 0W40 when there are plenty of better oils on the Porsche approved list? Even if you have not seen enough evidence or opinions against the use of 0W40 to convince you, why would you risk using it when there are so many unanswered questions about it?" He has no evidence to support his claims that 0w-40 is a lower quality oil than the other approved oils, again, listed on Porsches approved oils bulletin.

if your using the 0W-40 oil 1999Porsche is correct... it doesn't have the film strength of other oils... which for me since I use that oil means that on startup after 4 seconds I give the engine a quick blip 2-3 times to 2-3000 rpm to get things flowing in there... since the 0W40 is thinner it will move and lubricate faster with a little help... where as a 5W50... the film strength practically guarantees a film will be on the metal parts so you don't have to use it.... I think though the 0W40 oil makes the car faster because it allows variocam to come in sooner and has less friction than the 5W50 oil....

OK, I'm not claiming to be a tribology god, but I've taken some courses on it, and I have to tell you, unless there is something very new here, there is little to no relationship between viscosity and film (shear) strength. That is drilled into your head early on because "common sense" tells you that it must be so....and it is not. To put it another way, why on earth would you think that going to a slower flowing oil automatically provides better protection? The clearances between bearing surfaces are designed to allow the correct film thickness to exist, for the viscosity designed for. What happens, is that the real world manufacturing may not yield the exact results of what the design is. I have never read anything regarding shear that leads me to believe that 0W-40 offers inferior protection to 5W-40. It really depends on your particular vehicles actual manufacturing tolerances. The difference between the flowability of 0W vs 5W at 50F for is pretty small. Both are 40 weight at high temperatures so should behave the same. What pongobaz says is correct..if it's on the approved list and neither is specifiaclly listed as the more correct oil over the other, then use what you want. In the summer whether it is 0W or 5W is irrelevant..they both flow the same fro a cold start, provide the same protection and shear strength. On the track, under high temp, the 50 weight will be thicker than the 40. Period. I have yet to read about anyone having an oil analysis done on the 996 engines, where the amount of metals was compared between 2 grades over 5000 miles. That is the ONLY (non-destructive) way to prove wear, that I am aware of. What a thicker oil will do, and it is easily observed by anyone with a 996, is change the oil pressure at the measured sensor location. Cruise at 2500 RPM (with what I assume is 0W-40 in my car) with cold oil and you'll be at 5 bar...15 minutes later you're at 3.4 bar. I assume that if you run 5W-50, you will (should) see a higher pressure when warmed up. Is that better? Maybe, maybe not. Depends totally on where the sensor is measuring relative to the pump, and if that higher pressure means you are flowing less oil through the ports due to that higher viscosity. Less flow is normally bad. Oil provides cooling as much as lubrication. Unfortunately, I do not have the oil piping path memorized yet, so I connot comment on this. Personally, I am VERY surprised that Porsche "recommends" such a wide range of viscosities...the majority of the autos I have owned over the last 20 years have been very specific for the duty use. They have determined the flow vs pressure vs shear fil balance (among others) and have tested for what is better. Many times they change as the engine matures and a better combinatiun is found, not usually do you see "pretty much any syntheic oil between 0W -50, as long as it's 10W or less" tha ti son the approved list. If there is anything NOT annecdotal pertaining to Mobil 1 0W-40 being inferior, everyone on this (and a bunch of other) board(s) would want to know ASAP, as it has definitely been list and targeted as the "new" preferred oil on many posts. Viscosity is only ONE component of an oils design, and without measured proof that one is superior over the other, then it is all conjecture and posturing, plain & simple. I'm sending my oil out this week. I supposedly have Mobil 1 0W-40, but the 30k was done at an indie about 2k miles ago, and unless a dealer or I put the oil in, then I can't assume anything.

i like the post perry! i just don't get why 1999porsche is so adamant about 0w-40 being an inferior oil.... especially to the 15w that he recommends over it which is not on porsche's current approved oils list.

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He probably has caseloads of it, and is looking to unload it .

perryinva - love the post.....bravo........best insight I have read on oils