Is RMS really that big of a deal

In the grand scheme of Porsches, the RMS issues does not seem that huge to me. Maybe I am wrong, but it is a relatively cheap repair covered by warranty that takes about 1 day to perform. If outside of warranty, it still costs less than say the periodic valve job on pre-993s, inevtiable top end top end rebuild on pre-993s, and other issues that have to be periodically addressed in 911 from years past. Don't know 993s that well. Are we not making a mountain out of a mole hill. It may be a hassle tot ake the car in, but for the most part is not really that big of a deal. Just curious if I am missing something on this as someone from my office is looking at 996s and we had a talk about the RMS issue.

mm be prepared for Scouser and Carlos to turn their one problem into the problem of 1000's of 996/986 owners. can't wait.

For those who have had the RMS replaced out of warranty, may I ask you to post how much it costs to have it done and whether it was done at a dealership or independent shop.

The cost to repair an RMS leak out of warranty runs about $800. Not a big deal in the scheme of things, but why should someone have to pay for something that is caused by a manufacturing defect. On a worst case basis, what happens if you car does not pass spec with the inspection tool and needs a new engine? Would you be willing to spring for that? Personally, I think it is a very big deal that Porsche needs to address.

Porsche should certainly address it, and I am pretty sure they will. However, I don't think RMS is the big deal it has become on this and other forums. It certainly won't stop me from purchasing (and enjoying) another Porsche. I mean, what else can you get that you can drive to the track, kick butt in, and then drive to an elegant dinner with your wife the same evening? I absolutely love these cars! The RMS issue is a minor annoyance I am more than willing to put up with.

I'm unaffected just yet (and out of warranty...) but I think the most major annoyance of the RMS is that it is (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) a correctable mfg defect but yet it lives on to this day in brand new cars.

It is not a big deal. But you have a warranty so the financial risk is not on you. In your case(s) it is where it should be, Porsche. I would not expect to find oil on the floor on a car with less than 2,000 miles. With a motor that took 4 years to develop and 7 years in production. I would not expect to replace the seal 4 times. I would not expect the replacement engines to also leak. I do not expect 2004 cars to leak just like they did when the Boxster came out for model year 1997. Your expectations are lower than mine. A top end rebuild on the older air cooled cars after 100k miles or more is fine with me. If the crank has moved and it leaks then the replacement seal is going to do what?

"If the crank has moved and it leaks then the replacement seal is going to do what?" Exactly!! - From what I have been able to read, these seals are supposed to do a better job of sealing the crankcase and it looks like they are being pushed in farther to make a tighter fit. But what's going to happen if this is really just a band-aid and the seals wear out and the crank begins leaking again. Same problem, but now you have another 50K plus miles on your car. No one knows if these seals are going to work in the long term. And by the time they fail (again) Porsche will tell you it's too old to be covered under warranty. Does anyone think that Porsche is going to do anything? I, for one, don't think that Porsche is going to do anything - unless they are forced to do so. And if the car has 70K-80K miles and it needs a new engine, be prepared to write a big check.

I had a 30,000mile 1999 996 c2 triptronic blow up on me the other day. The car was bought new from Porsche center(Stratstone, wilmslow) and was maintained and serviced by them. The last service was 1 month ago. The car had only been driven 6 days since the service, when clouds of white smoke came from one of the exhausts and it died on me! There were no waring lights, the car has never been driven hard (its anautomatic!), never raced and looked after. The Porsche centre feel that it would be added costs to me to find out what the cause of the problem is and wish to replace my engine. Cost, a cool �10,000++ Porsche GB are not willing to help financially at present. The Porsche centre have said in as many words its not their problem, i have to pay for a new engine! I note that there are quite a few reports of 1998/9 996 engines failing The Porsche centre agrees that this problem would have surfaced during the warrenty period had the car covered the usual 12k miles per year, and been covered Is this really what we are to expect from Porsche in the future? I have a new 911 on order but am now really worried by both the attitude of the Porsche Center and that of Porsche GB I would value the views of others on this matter and will keep you informed of my progress

It coulld be the oil/vapor separator if you see a lots of smoke. Has nothing to with the RMS issue.

It baffles my mind that this problem has been around since 1997 and STILL no REAL fix from Porsche. That is the real sad part. All I read about from Porsche is how they continue to be the most profitable car company in the world.

Tool Pants, Believe me there was smoke!!! I was stuck in traffic and there was dense white smoke like you see when formula 1 cars blow their engines from one exhaust. If it is the oil vapour separator then would this need a new engine as my Porsche centre wants me to change my engine??

I thought we were not going to have another thread on the RMS for a another month or so. It is sooo old news. You should thank us early Boxster owners for your 4 year warranty, which was just 2 years when they first came to the US in 1996. This is what Kolbenschmidt and Porsche decided to do with some rejected blocks in 1998/99. Put sleeves in the motors to keep up with production. I would settle for an oil leak any day.

Most Porsche models have had issues. Some 993's are afflicted with carbon build up and a CEL light. Some 964's were prone to leaking oil. Pre-G50 Carrera's had syncho problems. I think in most cases, including the RMS issue with 996's, there were relatively few cars, compared to the number of cars produced, that are/were afflicted. Good luck.

That's kind of my point. Is RMS any worse than having to do a valve job every 15,000 miles on a 964 or 911 or having to replace head studs on 911s. I would also think that the oil leak issues and the clutch issues were more prevelant in the 964s than the RMS leak is in the 996s. Then you had the distributor problem in the 964 that could have had potantially catastrophic consequences. Some may have a $ 1,000 RMS leak during the first 60,000 miles or so, but at 60,000 every 964 will have required 4 valve jobs which is more $$$ than the RMS leak or 2. In addition, a good many 964s may need a top end rebuild around 60,000 miles and this equates to about 3 or 4 RMS falures. So with 964s, your maintenance could exceed the cost of 5 or 6 RMS failures by 60,000 miles. To me the 996 would be cheaper to maintain than most older Porsches (when new) from that stand point even if you had an RMS failure or 2. The records on my 964 for warranty repairs during the time frame it was covered under a warranty are voluminous and makes a 996 truly appear bullet proof. To me, the 996 is a great car and not any worse from a reliability standpoint or a problem standpoint than most of the previous models. Thank god the the 964 issues can be sorted as a well sorted 964 is a honey of a car. I really asked the question because a buddy at work was asking me if there was anything he needed to worry about with buying a 996. He is looking used and I just told him to make sure he gets an extended warranty and go for it. BTW, I did try and talk him into checking out 993s, but he is in the less vocal minorty that actually likes the 996 headlights. Last question for me: Is there really an easy fix for this or is this like the valve issues on the 911s and 964 where only a design change could solve the problem.

Has anyone had an RMS leak AFTER getting a replacement engine? Probably hard to figure the odds on getting two faulty engines in a row. But, if it turns out the replacement engines DON'T leak, what's different about them and why hasn't that been incorporated into all engines?

Well, then Porsche hired the wrong company to market the production Boxster in 1996. I have the brochures going back to 1992. There was no pictures back then since it was a concept car. More reliable and no shared parts. I have a January 1997 which was sold next to the 993. No 996 back then. It was a modern water cooled design. I think the 986/996 is a great car. I would buy a used one if it had a warranty that covered known problems. Have your friend check with the companies, but I think he will find most do not cover oil seals.

hmmm. I think Doug H has an interesting angle here. Aircooled are expensive to maintain and spread out over a couple of years of ownership, the 996, even with RMS might be an OK deal. New way to rationalize are always welcome

The point about the RMS issue is: - Its not part of regular maintenance, its a inherent factory defect that Porsche knowingly ignores, its not a wear and tear like other issues on older air cooled models. - Porsche has choosen to ignore it and not fix it in over 7 years and knowingly sells the cars with this defect, but will not extend warranty for the RMS. Should the owner pay for it when out of warranty? An RMS leak is not a big deal, even if out of warranty its just an 800€ job (unless you need new engine or clutch/flywheel), the big deal is that after 7 years Porsche will still not extend warranty over a known defect in their engines that they continue to sell to their customers regardless without fixing it or even admiting that such an issue even exists. But seems Porsche will only take responsability of the issue by fixing it in future carreras or at least extending warranty for it, if its pressured to do so, thats why the issue should be made a big deal. Who can be against that? That is the big deal about RMS, that has to insult the principles of most good people here, except for those that are more worried about their "$100k investment sitting in their garage" and selfishly want to keep the issue quiet and downplay it so as not to hurt their resale, like RR's case. Sorry RR if I hurt your resale but some of us are lobbying for a bigger cause than your investment here

So the RMS problem is no big deal because other Porsche models have even worse problems. Somehow I don't find that line of reasoning comforting. I don't think many of us would complain when cars experience problems because they are raced regularly. Cars stressed to their limits on the track are likely to have problems. But what I'm reading on this Board is that cars that are rarely if ever tracked are experiencing RMS problems. I was attracted to Porsches because they had the reputation of building high performance, high quality, durable sports cars, and most importantly, Porsche stood by their product. I have to admit that I'm now questioning my initial perception. The high performance is still there, but the quality, durability, and Porsche's standing by their product are all in question in my mind.

BTW, I have no problem with you guys going after Porsche about it to try and get Porsche to cover it, pay for the repairs or solve the problem. I would probably do the same thing if I had an RMS issue. I just think the 996, overall, is a good dependable car and the RMS issue gets taken out of perspective. It does not seem like a rational reason to avoid the 996 based solely on cost of the repair and likely hood of the failure occurring.

Agree with you there Doug. As my wife would say, "its only a car dear" , just consider it to be part of the cost of ownership if you are unlucky, chances are that you will not be unlucky. I've been buying used Porsches for several decades now, I never expect them to be the most economical car to buy and run, but they are the most useable and reliable supercar. The 996 especially so. Maybe I've been softened up by the running cost of my 964RS......

Just compare Porsche maintenance and reliability to other sports car manufacturers like Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maseratti, and Aston... you'll quickly realize that the Porsches are bulletproof by comparison. And cheap to maintain, too.

I think the issue is that some of you are getting out of context on what the issue is with the RMS in the 996 and what it means to you. If anyone has a gripe on the car's reliability it should be me. Here I am the proud owner of one absolutely gorgeous 996 Carrera Cabriolet. Had it since new (my 3rd Porker BTW). It's now just on 4 yrs old and I am at it's 5th, yes "FIFTH" RMS failure. The gearbox is screwed, there's a scream coming from somewhere when I start my car every now and then. It rattles like f*ck and so on. But.....despite all this, I just did a 700 mile round trip yesterday over to France, I got 28.1 Mpg with an average speed of 85 MPH. The weather here has been horribly wet......yet my little beauty never murmured once. There and back without a single cough! Yes. It is reliable. No doubt about it. It's reliable enough to be your daily driver. So no questions, if's or but's. It is reliable. OK. Great. Now that's outa the way..... The point is not its reliability. It's the fact that Porsche are "STILL" pushing out these $100,000 cars with engines that have 7 years+ of history of RMS problems and they don't seem to be making any effort to fix it or to help their loyal customers. Not to mention that Porsche are the developers of this so called most advanced German engineering quality. Yet their 996/986 engines "STILL" have a freakin design flaw with this RMS. But worse than this, they know very well about this flaw but won't acknowledge it and on top of this they even expect you to pay to fix it when your warranty runs out. For you guys that have cars under warranty the RMS issue is not a problem for you......yet! But for you guys that have out of warranty cars and have yet to suffer the RMS problem, or maybe you're like me and have had several RMS problems already......you can't tell me when you take this baby out on the road you ain't scared about your RMS blowing out on you. You know I just don't see why some of you are arguing on this issue. It's not about reliability. It's about design failure, cost of ownership on something that has a design flaw, cost of running something that has a design flaw, having trust in your investment knowing that this design flaw exists, the horrible thought that the RMS problem could inflict your gorgeous beauty next time you take it on the road, knowing that you won't get any help from Porsche AG if your engine is screwed......your on your lonesome. I want to point one other important issue out: this concept that a leaking RMS is nothing to worry about. A leaking RMS can lead to any of the following: * lack of pressure and ultimately engine destruction * wear and/or tear of the crankshaft and/or crank bearing housing. * crankshaft and/or bearing failure * crankshaft distortion (concentricity misalignment) * Clutch failure or contamination * flywheel and/or thrust bearing failure or contamination * gearbox damage due to crank wobble None of these items are trivial to fix. They are all costly. The chance of any of these things happening to your car would be "greatly" reduced if not completely, if the RMS problem did not exist. If you are out of warranty then Porsche will ask you to cough up the readies. So after saying all this, I think the main point is simply this: Give me one good reason to stay loyal to Porsche and invest in the 997? They certainly haven't stayed loyal to me. They just sucked my pockets dry and still want more. My car and my pocket are still crying out for help! What guarantee have I that the RMS problem has gone away in the 997 and will be covered by a "long term" or even lifetime guarantee? You know the irony of all this is that if Porsche had just replaced my engine and gearbox under warranty when it the problems first occurred (just 3 weeks out of warranty) I would almost definitely be buying a 997 right now and I almost definitely would not have done all this bitching. For all you guys sitting on the tight rope with your out of warranty 996/986. Best of luck to you...... you'll need it.

How many of those cars are daily drivers. Those names almost define UNdependability. PAG is marketing to a larger group who uses the cars for transportation, not some seldom used toy. They're competing with BMW, MBZ. BMW increased warranties when they had an engine problem. It's time for PAG to stand with the big boys if they want to play in that sand box.

i agree with both points of view: 1. porsche should provide extended warranty coverage for rms leaks--they usually do in the u.s.a.--apparently not on europe judging from carlos and scouser. 2. rms is not a deal breaker for an otherwise very reliable car-- only the 996 tt is better! peace and remember that preventative 30k mi service for ferrari's is $5-7k without any other problems! i find this a major disincentive to ferrari ownership.

Scouser, you are definitely in an unfortunate situation. Sounds like your motor should have been replaced and the failure to replace your motor and fix it with a band aide type repair has resulted in nothing but continued frusteration for you. I agree that is not fair to you, but your situation seems out of the norm. I wouldn't blame you if you did not buy another Porsche, but your agenda seems a bit like you also want to keep others from buying a Porsche which is fine with me. I might feel the same way as you if I had been through all of that. I can tell you that I have had similar to worse experiences with other "fine German brands" and I got rid of those vehicles, purchased a Porsche and vowed never to buy one of those "other brands" again. I have always had excellent support from Porsche though.

Sure, because you show them your business card, licensed to practice in Tenn.

Haha, being a card carrying a-hole does not necessarily mean people won't rip you off.

I know that, & I don't even have a card. My father in law affrms your definition. ;-)

Doug, You read me wrong on this. And just in case anyone else has read me the same way let me make it clear. I am a long time Porschephille. I love these cars. This being my 3rd. My first was a 1972 model true 911S Targa 2.4ltr engine with weber carbs. I bought it when it was only 3 yrs old. Picture below is me with the car in 1979 taken in Paris. I have always been an avid Porsche fan although I've deviated from them here and there. I had an Aston Martin DB6 and believe me it was less trouble than this 996! My point is that I believe I have been loyal to Porsche so they should respect that. My cars have always been serviced by the network but time after time I get troubled porkers and Porsche UK just don't give a damn. The 911S in the picture suffered pulled studs and a loose cylinder head. This ended up with a major engine rebuild. But I had that car for 10 years and spent a small fortune on repairs despite loving it to death. I eventually sold it and ventured into other marques before returning to my 2nd 911 around about 1988. Again my 2nd car was just a PITA and a deep hole in my pocket. In 2000 I bought my 996. This was the 911 to beat all other cars. it was coined a daily driver and I really wanted a cab. I had to dig deep into debt to buy this car because unlike many on this board owning several porkers i'm just a small time computer programmer working for a large computer company earning a meagre crust for a living. So, hefty repair bills really damage me. Hence me hanging on as long as I can with this screwed up gearbox But don't read me wrong, I don't want to put people off buying Porches. I love these cars. It's just that I am so pissed off at being mugged by them that I am not going to just take it like a fool anymore. The RMS is a design flaw in the 996. It's not my fault it theirs. I bought the car in good faith so it's only fair that they put the fault right in good faith. I really think they should be brought to justice for this and I don't care how much moaning it's going to take I will continue to nag, bitch, moan and rally in the hope that they will eventually do something about it. Yes, the few of us that have had RMS problems are a minority and we are probably only a small portion of 996/986 owners that have suffered. But nevertheless that does not make it OK. I am still hoping that Porsche the company, will redeem themselves. In my case I just want my car put right. If they did that I would forgive them and would almost definitely be looking at the 997 right now. But more fool them.

But don't read me wrong, I don't want to put people off buying Porches. I love these cars. It's just that I am so pissed off at being mugged by them that I am not going to just take it like a fool anymore. The RMS is a design flaw in the 996. It's not my fault it theirs. I bought the car in good faith so it's only fair that they put the fault right in good faith. I really think they should be brought to justice for this and I don't care how much moaning it's going to take I will continue to nag, bitch, moan and rally in the hope that they will eventually do something about it. Scouser: I too am not a wealthy man. I make a comfortable living but I don't want to spend a significant part of it on buying and maintaining a car. I had considered buying an '02 or '03 996, but after reading posts on this message board and others, I'm leaning in other directions. The M3 is looking better and better to me. I can get a new one for about the same price as a late model 996, and BMW throws in four year, 50K maintenance at no additional charge.

My guess is if you buy an M3, every time you see a 996, you'll stare at it, you'll have a lump in your stomach and be thinking "I should have got one." Buy a 996 and every time you see an M3 you won't pay it any attention. I have been there and done that.

Its like marrying that dynamite looking hooker.........

Hahaha.

sly, Doug H is so right! The M3 is just another beemer with a proper engine underneath. The 996 IMHO is "sex on weels". It will turn heads every time. Then there's the sweet music it plays. The thrill you get when you get in it to drive. I walk into my garage and my "beast" says to me "take me baby"......and I am gone..... There Is No Subsutute. There I go saying I would never buy another Porker.............blah....what to do, what to do......maybe a late model 993.......yeah baby

Scouser, Torags, Doug H: I hear you. My heart pulls me to Porsche and my head to the M3. The sound of Porsche engines is music to my ears, but the practicality of the M3 is also appealing. The usable back seat, large trunk, and relatively low cost, especially when maintenance is considered, is hard to beat. It generally takes me a long time to make a decision, but once I do I never look back.

Sly, It's difficult choice. But I will stick my head out and say that the 996 is far from being a practical car. I will own up and say that mine is only a weekender except for long trips. It's also mostly garaged over the winter. Otherwise I have another car for being practical in. Cheers,

It seems to me that the problems are continous. I disagree that the engine troubles are not "uncommon" All i can say is at the moment i have a 996 that has done 30,000 bought from the same centre that has serviced it, as regular as clock work, its never been raced BUT needs a new engine!! The Porsche centre do not know what has gone wrong with the car. I firstly had an offer from Prosche GB of �0! Yesterday they came with �800. The lady at the other end of the phone thought this was "generous" In the last week alone i have has 4 people from the North West of England email me about having the same failure ( cracked cylinders ). Two of the cars were bought from the same Centre Stratstones, in wilmslow Cheshire. I know that even before i PAY, out of my pocket, for my car to be taken to pieces the cause of the fault (even got pictures from another car). Porsche have never informed me of the problem and they refuse to give me a letter to say that this can be expected in a car of this age, service history and caliber. I have owned many cars from other makers and the consistant thing has been that they have put their hands up when major things have gone wrong and either coughed up or offered a substantial discount (50%-70%). I think that Porsche GB seems to be loosing the plot. We are all Porsche owners who will remain loyal to the brand, if treated well. This should not matter if we buy 20 cars or 2 cars or in the case of Doug if we carry licence. I am trying to build up a database of engine failures/ new engines and would welcome comments from members affected. Please email me. If Porsche publish a letter to say that a catrophic failure requiring a new engine may be expected in a Porsche that has been fully serviced at one of their centres, covered a low mileage and been carefully looked after then i would hold my hand up and say fine i am prepared to pay large quantities of money to own a Porsche. Finally if the issues with catostrophic engine failures are so uncommon then surely a company such as Porsche with vast profit margins should replace them if ony to maintain their standing as a manufacture of reliable cars Scoucer please contact me scouser

n4das..... just PM'd you.

Let me comment as a prospective Porsche buyer. If I could summarize what I have learned from this and other threads, it is that one should not own a Porsche out of warranty. It's a form of self insurance which seems to be unwise in the case of Porsche. That said, one can step back and look at the issue from a problem solving standpoint. Scouser, I wonder if you have looked at the cost of trading your car for a 997? I have no idea what the warranty duration is in the UK, but that would solve your problem. I will be making a choice in about three years as to whether to stay with Corvette or go with a 997. I will surely factor in the cost of maintaining a warranty either by trading the car before warranty expiration or purchasing some sort of extended warranty if one is available. It's apparent to me that the RMS issue is but one facet of the problem. Even if that is taken care of, one needs protection against catastrophic failure. An extended warranty with a high deductable should be available at a reasonable cost, but there is always the problem of the warranty company going bankrupt.

SteveJ, I think you have everything correctly in prespective there. But just want to highlight some points that you raised: 1) What your saying is correct. You would be a real fool if you buy a Porsche without dealership warranty. However, this has a major effect on resale value of these cars and also on the viability of purchasing and/or selling one privately. Remember you are not investing a small ammount of money here. Even if you buy an early 1997 model 996 you will still be expected to pay about $30,000+ privately. So, this means that if you buy a new Porsche at $100,000 or therabouts you not only will suffer the massive depreciation hit but also the fact that you can't sell it because nobody wants one unless it comes from the dealership (which includes the warranty). So basically unless you are rich and can absorb the costs of replacing your car every two years (2 year warranty in Europe), these cars are simply too expensive to own andor run as a daily driver. 2) In regards to external warranty companies. Yes they may go bankrupt. We have seen notive of this before on rennlist. Also I am not sure that there are any operating in the UK! But anyway. I don't think any of them cover RMS or catastrophic engine failure. (BTW: Porsche will sell you after market warranty so long as your car passes their tests ad its no more than 3 years old). 3) When I bought my 996 I bought into it for the long haul. It was touted as a daily driver, it has been served by the delareship meticulously. It also cost me a small mortgage! So I expected it to last more than 24,000 miles before the engine main seal and the gearbox gave up. I also "foolishly" expected the engine and gearbox to last a few more years longer than the three weeks that had passwd after my warranty had expired! I certainly can't afford to buying a new Porsche every 2 years either, so trading it in is not realy an option (also the 997, being its 1st year of manufacture may have as many or many more problems than my 996!).

SteveJ, I dont think you must buy a porsche with the warranty. If RMS is your concern, usual cost of the repair is under $1000. However, the price difference between one w/warranty and one w/o it is almost always great than 1K. Just like everything in our life, such as life insurance, travel insurance and etc, it is all about how much risk you are willing to take to save $$$$. I know plenty owners who have bought used exotic cars (328, 348,550, 6.0VT,) none of them had any warranty. Don't let RMS scare you. At the same time, dont expect porsche to have the same reliablity as Toyota, Honda.. None of european cars I have owned proved to be as reliable as japanese cars but that doesnt stop me from buying them

A quick note to steve The extended cover provided by Porsche here in the uk does not cover an oil leak let alone a major engine failure. The problems experienced from my experience have been major engine failures due to cracked cylinders. The failures have taken place on cars that have been fully serviced in authorised centres that chage primium prices upto $120++ per hour. I do love the car and if Porsche just put their hands up and met me half way i would not have complained or become as enraged as i am now.

n4das, did you get my PM?

Thanks for the replies to my post. At this point all I can say is that I will keep abreast of the situation. I certainly won't presume to tell Porsche how to run their business, and we may see no change until sales are affected.

yes i did thanks scouser shame about the football

n4das: What kind of car. Do you have any pictures. Cracked cylinders. Where is the cracked cylinder crowd? Funny, my dealer has never even had a 996 with an RMS issue. He has seen it on a couple of 986s, but no 996s. Cracked cylinders. I have not heard about that problem either. This post turned out to be a personal crusade of those with a bone to pick with Porsche, those with no prior posts or to those looking for reasons to validate a purchase other than a Porsche. Are you saying that Porsche's warranty does not cover and RMS leak if the leaks occurs during the warranty period.

Dough I think you have me wrong. I have no bones to pick with Porsche my late farther owned a few which never gave any problems and were fully maintained by Porsche I am a young doctor and waited for the day that i was able to afford one of my own. I bought my car with all the expectations that i had had as a child growing up. What baffles me is that knowing that there are issues with the engine and knowing that in the UK the sales of goods act covers latent defects Porsche GB are still holding on to the notion that they are right The "cracked cylinder 996 band" live in the North West of England. I live in Wilmslow a place better know for Manchester United football Players especially David B In the Uk if your car is under warranty (only 2 years) the RMS issue is covered but most of our cars are greater than 2 years as we hardly use them cover less than 5k per year. I have never raced my car, it gets washed in a covered car park and has never travelled more than 100miles at any one time I have been and always will be pro Porsche as a car, I have so far owned performance versions of BMWs, Hondas, Aston Martin and Mercs, what my gripe is to do with the way that the dealer and Porsche GB are dealing with what are catrstropic failures. I have not been given a loan car from the dealer, I am on call 3-4 days a week. I have an inexperienced lady on the other end of the phone in Porsche GB who feels that a 5% reduction of a $20,000 bill is "overly generous" Finally to dispell any myth that i am anti Porsche i have on order a new 997 and a boxter for my sister. Just within my close circle of friends we have 6 cars on order and 5 of us drive Porsches. I don't know if it is the case that your dealer does not want to admit there is an issue or just that we have been the ones to get the doggy engines in the uk

Cool. Good luck in getting everything resolved.

Doug you might be right in your summary. But I think your comments are rather nasty IMHO. This RMS flaw pops up week in week out. I bet we will see another RMS related thread posted here before the months out. It's that common. It's that worrying. When I visted my dealer last week, there were no less than 3 996s up in the air having their RMS fixed. And they had a box full of oily used up failed seals from past repairs. If your dealer is telling you he hasn't fixed a 996 RMS before I would say he's pulling your plonker. Your signature reads like the front dispay room of a Porsche dealer. Your one lucky guy to be able to afford such a gorgious set of cars 2004 996 C2, 2003 996 TT, 03 Cayenne and if that's not enough a 1990 C2 Ruf Cab to boot. You are obviously in a financial position where if any one of those cars had an engine blow up you could absorbe the cost easily regardless of warranty. You obviosly love your porkers and hate to hear anything bad said about them. If I were lucky enough to be in your position I would probably be defensive too. But some of us are not lucky enough to be in that position and this forum seems a good place to vent opinions good or bad about engine problems in the 996. Anyone has a right to air their views & opinions here so your summary is unfounded. I may be a Brit but I believe it is your country that toutes the term "Freedom of Speech". That's what we are all doing here....including you and that's fair enough IMO but at least don't be nasty about it. Finally, I don't know n4das and I must admit to also not having heard of 996s with cylinder heads cracking (but I must admit to being worried having read his posts). Nevertheless, he is having a real hard time there with his porker. Even if the poor guy is a newbie to this board he deserves some support from us rennlisters at least. So lets just give him a break.

Oh! and peace brother. No offence intended. Honestly!

Oh yeah, let's have the name of the party to be charged........

The question really only came up because me and someone at work were discussing potential concerns about getting a 00 or 01 996 cabriolet for a garage queen. I had once thought that it better to buy one with warranty if only to cover the possibility of an RMS leak. Upon reflection, I had an epithiney so to speak that even with an RMS failure, the 996 may no more expensive to maintain than other Porsche models and thought I would share. Nothing more, nothing less. A Porsche is both a large financial commitment and well as an emotional/personal investment for some. Perhaps that is why when things go wrong, people get very upset and are very vocal about it. IMO, an RMS leak is not of such a magnitude that that it should deter one from purchasing a vehicle that alot of us have fantacized about owning and driving since a young age. I think most that are in a position to afford such an investment are intelligent enough to weigh their options and to balance the considerations that are involved in making such a purchase to determne whether a Porsche is right for them. With regard to my service manager, he shoots very straight with me and has never been hesitant about informing me of both the bad as well as the good. After having dealt with these folks, I would put more stock in what they say then what I read on the internet for the most part. This is not imply that you or others on here have not had an RMS problem. I am just speaking in general terms.

Doug H: The issue really isn't so much an RMS. It's simply a gasket. Don't replace it and your oil costs would be minimal (if the clutch doesn't slip.) It's what the leak indicates. It is a sign, that the crankshaft and the transmission are out of line ... And that is a big deal. For those of us out of warranty its $10,000. If I were racing, I wouldn't complain because my use would be indefensable. But even garage queens are getting it. I'm putting my 997 on hold. They have altered the block, but time will tell if the fix works.

Now your raising the stakes on me. I thought we were dealing with a $ 1,000 repair, not a $ 10,000 repair. If the repair was costing everyone $ 10,000, I would not view it as "no big deal." Is $ 10,000 the cost of a new engine? How many people have actually had the $ 10,000 repair or had a repair that was in the $ 10,000 magnitude and what percentage of those folks having a RMS leak have had a $ 10,000 repair as opposed to a $ 1,000 repair.

I hate to say it Doug but I could be one them. My gearbox is well screwed and the engine still has it's 5th RMS to be done. So it is likely that the engine will have to be replace too. I won't get any financial help from Porsche with this. This "is" the point. The car's only done 38,000 miles and its in its 5th year. The gearbox and RMS problems started at 24,000 miles in its 3rd year. But they have led me up the garden path for so long changing RMS's to finally tell me to go fish because both gearbox and engine are too hosed to repair. And all along it's been their fault: flawed design, flawed seal, flawed service department that should have put it right 1st time. The point is, the RMS problem is a design flaw and if not fixed "properly" it will eventually lead to engine and/or gearbox failure. Now do you see that it "is a big issue"?

To keep the forum informed: I had a long chat with the service manager (20 years experience) from my local Porsche centre and it makes for great reading. He informs me that issues with 996 engines are numerous. For what ever reason total engine replacements on 996s are not uncommon on low mileage cars. He told me that in the last month he has had 5 996s that needed total engine replacements. As with the above threads, the problem is something that may affect you when you hit between 30-50k in a Porsche. Even with an extended warranty these issues are not covered in cars over 5 years. (the warranty does not even cover oil leaks). The question is do you buy one of these cars knwing that they may go wrong and that you will have no choice but to pay �10,000 or about $17,000 out of your own own pocket after trying all you can to protect your investment

To keep the forum informed: I had a long chat with the service manager (20 years experience) from my local Porsche centre and it makes for great reading. He informs me that issues with 996 engines are numerous. For what ever reason total engine replacements on 996s are not uncommon on low mileage cars. He told me that in the last month he has had 5 996s that needed total engine replacements. As with the above threads, the problem is something that may affect you when you hit between 30-50k in a Porsche. Even with an extended warranty these issues are not covered in cars over 5 years. (the warranty does not even cover oil leaks). The question is do you buy one of these cars knowing that they may go wrong and that you will have no choice but to pay �10,000 or about $17,000 out of your own own pocket after trying all you can to protect your investment! The RMS issue on its own may not be a big deal costing $800 but eventually the engine will go and that is a fact. You will need a replacement at some point, the time interval is unknown, the question is who will be the owner at that point? It may well be you. I think that it is important that people know about these issues. The better informed you are in making a decision on your purchase. As a group of people, may be Porsche may listen to us and realize that we are loyal to the brand but when there is a mistake on their part they should just own up and not waste everbodys time and money

n4das, 5 engine replacemnts in last month. Hahaha, you are overdoing it a bit now. RE: RMS eventually leading to engine replacement Give me statistics or figures and I would be inclined to agree with you. If you notice, I started this thread out with a question and now after 50 something posts the stakes have been raised from $ 800 repairs to everyone needing a new engine. (1) How many people on this board have had to have an engine replaced due to RMS failure (or had an engine replaced for any reason for that matter). (2) How many people have had the RMS replaced more than twice. If what Scouser or Torags is saying is true about RMS leading to an ineveitable engine replacement, let me see some numbers to back that up and I will whole heartedly join the campaign. I love class action stuff. If the numbers don't back it up, I think you guys are being disingenuous to state that in effort to prove a point or support your cause. I, however, am very open minded, especially if the numbers are there to support it. BTW, Scouser, I think I said this before. Your situation does seem like one of those were the engine should have been replaced by what you are saying. I am just curious if this is the norm or the rare extreme instance. These cars have been on the road long enough that if what you are saying is true, there should be a whole lot of people out there getting new motors. I am pretty good friends with someone at my dealer and to my knowledge they have replaced only one motor in a new 996 and they actually called me to see if I knew any one that wanted to buy it at an unreal huge price reduction.

Dough I would love to send you the contact details and pics of the guys over here who have had similar problems but your mail box is full. If you want to PM me your details i will be more than happy to supply the names of 3 of the guys, I have manage to track down, from this months run of 5 blown motors at just my Porsche centre

Doug H, I have owned two Porsches, an '00 Boxster S and my current car, an '02 C4 CAB. I have had two RMS leaks in each. Fortunately, all of them were fixed under warranty. With regard to ultimate engine failure, I think what many fail to realize is that no one, not even Porsche, knows if these replacement seals are going to last. They just have not been in the cars long enough. And what is going to happen when a car with a replacement seal starts leaking at 60K miles and Porsche refuses to cover the cost of the repair. Worst yet, if it doesn't pass the measurement test and your technician tells you that you need a new engine. Again, at your own expense. Personally, I do think that there will be a class action lawsuit against Porsche - just not for a while yet.

Doug, your dealer just proved one of our points (unwittingly). Even with a new engine, the resale value of the cars are diminished. Buy a new engine & get less on resale.... Owchhh

I don't disagree that a new engine hurts value in a new car. I don't think anyone wittingly or unwittingly would disagree with that, but that was not the question posed. I was just asking if you or if anyone had any information to back up the statement that an RMS leak requires or eventually requires a new motor or are you just speculating on that. I asked some pretty straight forward questions about data or information to support your contention, but no-one addresses or answers those questions.

Dough, you and I both know that there is no real way to get any stats on this problem. The only people who can compile such stats are Porsche AG themselves since they have on computer the service history of all the cars worldwide. Also, we here at rennlist/renntech/funcarsonline and so on are only but a miniscule of the total 996 and 986 owners out there. So even if we got info from everyone on rennlist who owned these cars to build stats from it would not give a true picture. WHat Ican tell you though is that since I started the RMS campaign I get email or PMd on a daily basis from those who have had or are having RMS and/or engine problems. In fact many have also told me about their gearbox problems too but that's another story. In just over a week, I have no less than 23 x 996 and 18 986 board members of one kind or another who have joined up to support the cause and are displaying the "failed" RMS Club image in their signature. None of this I know draws a true picture but it sure indicates that even for a small group of 996 owners, this RMS problem is a big issue......and that's the topic of your thread. Again, I reiterate the real problem is not the RMS (well actually it is). The real issue though is that Porsche AG should acknowledge the flaw and back it up by supporting its customer base and fixing it under warranty with no questions asked. With all the press talking about Porsche being so successful and making huge profits, surely it would do them no harm to reinvest some of that profit into its loyal customers. If they did that they would be doing themselves and theur customers a favour since we would all be happy in the end......at least I am sure many of us would think nothing of buying into the 997. But many of us don't trust the 997 or Porsche's backupo service so many existing customers are goind to shy away from the 997. Currently its a lose lose situation instead of a win win one. Someone at Porsche AG will wake up to this fact. It may take a class action law suit to do it, but I favour combined worldwide pressure from customers would be just as good. To give you some perspective: PCGB is currently carrying out a survey of the RMS problem with UK Boxster owners. I am not sure why they didn;t include the 996. Both GT Porsche mags and 911 Purely Porsche regularly mention the RMS problem in articles (probably also US mags but i don't get them). Jerremy Clarkson of the BBC TOP GEAR fame also often mentions it on his show and he loves Porsches. Just do a search in Google for "Porsche 996 RMS problem" and you will surprised how often its mentioned. Believe me it is a big issue. Sadly I can't give you statistical proof. Only Porsche can do that. But will they

That's cool. Not really answer the question, but I understand it may be difficult to answer. Torags, however, made a statement to the effect that an RMS problem was a $ 10,000 problem for those out of warranty. I was curious if there was any reliable data or information to back that up. That's all. I would think that there are a bunch of 99/00 996s and 97/98/99/00 Boxters floating around these boards that are out of warranty and I was just curious to know if anyone has actually reported here that they had to pay $ 10,000 to fix and RMS issue out of warranty or had to pay for a new engine in a 996 or Boxter that was out of warranty due to RMS issues. Either people are reporting here or telling you guys they have had to pay $ 10,000 to repair an RMS issue out of warranty or they are not. If they are not, then it would seem a little misleading to make others believe that an RMS issue out of warranty is going to cost them $ 10,000.

Well an answer to these problems would be to get a baseline of whats going on in the world I have set up an email address [email removed] please send me the details of your car and please get others that you know to do the same. I need all those that have had total engine replacements what i need to know is 1. The reg of car and date of first reg so that we are not acused of making up the numbers 2. The mileage and how many years old the car was when it failed. 3. What the technical problem that caused the failure eg cylinder cracked 4. How much it cost you 5. offers and time scale from Porsche eg i was first offered �0 by Porsche GB the �800 a week later 6 If you had to fist pay for the technical inspection I will try to get an electronic profoma but just mail me at that address. Its real and i am serious about getting this going

Hahaha, that is great. A netrual and unbiased third-party administrating the results of a secret poll. We ought to let Busch or Kerry depending on which side you are on count their own ballots. I was just curious if the people making the statements had any information to support the statements. Trying to go out and specifically gather information to prove a point or to prove a statement already made does not seem to be the proper scientific methodology to obtain accurate or reliable data. Relying on people to self report will probably be skewed as those with problems are more likely to report and heck, I could go get a Vin# off ebay and send that to you if I had an axe to grind or an agenda. If there were a whole lot of engine replacements going on, it seems we would hear something about that from the owners who actually post on here. I also question whether you have an agenda or an axe to grind based on our allegations in this thread and based on the fact that you may have registered just to respond to this thread. It would be better methodology to randomly pick a group of Porsche owners and have them complete a survey. Scouser said a survey is being done and I trust those results will be more meaningful and inherently more reliable than that what you are proposing. Questionable or unreliable data would actually do little to serve anyone's purpose at this point and believe it or not, I am on Scouser's side as to everything he says. I also probably agree with alot of Scouser's points. I was more curious about or interested in learning more about the seriousness of the failure than anything. BTW, I am done here. I am sounding too much like the CEO of Porsche or a sales manager which is not my intention. I was really just attempting to put this issue into perspective for a buddy who was asking me about 996s in general. Didn't want to start WWIII.

Dough As always you miss the point. If i was so inaccurate with my patients i would be sued! This is only a method to obtain those people who are willing to partake in such a survey. As for scientic stdies i am well aware having publised a few the step needed. I would be glad for an independant third party to do this but no one else seems to want to take the responsiblity. The issue here is that most of these faults were fixed during warranty as i am getting details from people

A thread contributer was quoted 10K for replacement in NorCal. Others have said 8K+. The full effect of this issue is years away. Pcars are not driven much & many are laid up for long periods. PAG acknowledges this by selling a drip charger. So even if some 99s are out of warranty now; because of low use it will be years away. Now Doug. You have been knocking around your office looking for something to do, since your last homerun. This may be it. But let let the pot simmer. Most don't know it here, but you may be da man... If I were you, I would collect the data & the name contacts - you never know. BTW - The Cayenne was released in Europe & England prior tothe US. I wonder if the 996s were. If so, is there a correlation between cracked cylinders and first off the line? Hmmm.............

I have no agenda or axe to grind just want information thats all. I only deal with fact i have to in my job I am sure many of the members would take offence to the suggestion that they may in some way lie about what is essentially a problem that can be faced by us all

As for the evidence here in the uk so as i know all of us have had to get independant inspectors to examine the porsches and strip them down I am looking at �2k or 40hours of labour before i even get as far as Porsche taking any notice. The Porsche centre thinks that its a total waste of mine and their time but Porsche wont listen!!! This is what, at the moment small group of us, have had to face.

I don't disagree with you, but remember this is an anonymus forum and the potential for lying is always present. Hummm. Perhaps a good gauge to recognize this as a problem would be to compare it to the number of failures/model for a stuatory recall (wire harness). While PAG would not be legally responsible - that might be acceptable in a civil matter. Hummm.... I wonder who could give us an educated opinion on that???? I'm noodling with contacting The CA attorney general and requesting a disclosure by PCNA of the defect on all new & used Pcars sold in CA. Does anyone think that under that threat PAG would warranty those engines?

I said I was done, but curiosity killed the cat and I am not going to bicker any more. This is not legal advice of anything, just me kind of summing up everything that has already been said by others in this thread (not that I agree with or disagree with, just conversing). Lets assume purely hypothetically that the RMS issue really did mean a new engine was called for, but Porsche only chooses to keep replacing the seal until the warranty runs out and then the customer gets told, "well you need a new engine" only once the warranty runs out. Again, I have no reason to believe or disbelieve that is what is happening, but . . . under that hypothetical, are you saying the AG would seemingly need to obtain that type of information from Porsche about engine replacements before and after warranty to draw conclusions about a consumer protection act type of issue. This information could go a long way in making people feel more secure about their 996s if, as I believe, it will show a low incidence in engine replacements, but I may be dead wrong about the numbers.

Ahhh.. The weakness of bright people (curiosity). I think the AG would require at the least, evidence of occurances and a number of some auto experts (2-3)*; before they would request further info. In CA the AG is very political (he ran for Gov). He loves high image (newsworthy) issues. If a staff member could be persuaded to bring it to him - I think there is a pretty good chance it could a request. PCNA would respond in a consumer benefical manner. The publicity in their largest market would be devasting. New York might follow CA (they are consumer friendly). *If you look at the MY96 engine, the biggest difference from the previous are waterways and main bearing housings. The main bearings are encased in iron casings that are bolted to the aluminum block. PAG says the advantage of doing that is to have less of a biomass differential (during high heat) between a revolving friction producing crank and the bearings. Steel &aluminum have different volumes/rates of expansion/contraction. Additionally, PAG says it quieter (was there slap in the 911s includes TTs). The trouble may lie in the bearing casing attachments. The 997 block has been redesigned. I hope they cured the problem. Your TT 996 is the old block. No RMS.

If the engine has a crankshaft, then it has a RMS. Any RMS can potentially leak albeit the issue seems to be more prevalent on the M96 engines compared to older 911 engines... based on the anecdotal evidence flying around the internet .