DE Questions

I've asked my Porsche friends locally, but I still feel compelled to ask these two questions of my fellow Rennlisters - no offense Cary/Apex guys. I'm going to a DE at VIR in a couple weeks. Here are the questions: - If a vinyl bra works on the road without damaging the paint, would it be OK to use it at the track for my first DE experience? Friends tell me it could flap in the wind and cause paint damage. I've hit 100+ mph in my car before and never had any damage associated with the bra. Why would it happen at the track? - Should I invest in a tinted lens for my helmet for the DE? The ones that fit my Pyrotect helmet aren't UV protected, so would it really help? Does anyone just use sunglasses? Feels dumb to ask. - Does anyone know of NC track insurance? Is it necessary for my first DE? Bob

I would say no bra. If you are paranoid you can use painters tape on the front bumper. Many 996 owners, myself included, use no protection and don't have real issues with chips. VIR is not known for stone chips. I have also heard the vinyl bra disturbs front aero. I prefer tinted visor over a clear visor and sunglasses. Many people prefer sunglasses since they don't like to drive with the visor down and fog up the visor. Call is yours Who is the event organizer? Motorsportreg offers some sort of track insurance now. You can purchase it with your track event, read through it carefully and decide for your self. There is also a recent thread on this topic. Personally I have never purchases supplemental track insurance, and last time I spoke to my state farm agent 1.5 years ago, DEs were covered... Which event is it? My next event is VIR full, nov 17-18 with trackdaze.

From what I understand, safety studies indicate that you're better off with the visor down if the airbag deploys. For that reason, I highly recommend keeping the visor down. The decision to go with a clear visor + sunglasses or a tinted visor is a matter of personal preference. Actually, the clear lens + sunglass option provides more flexibility. You can wear sunglasses on sunny days, use lighter sunglasses on days with overcast, or go with no sunglasses at all. If you go with the tinted visor, you're prety much stuck with that option.... unless you change visors again. My $0.02

Your advice is consistent with my local Porsche friends. So, no vinyl bra - just wanted to be sure. I'll probably try the clear plastic from Home Depot that is used to protect carpets from contracting work. Also, I'll go with sunglasses and clear visor. As for insurance, I'll check out the motorsportreg lead provided. The event is the Carolinas PCA DE Nov 21-23. It's my first DE. I'm getting a tech inspection this week, changing the oil on Saturday, and putting together a cooler and other incidentals over the next few days. Should be fun - I've waited a long time to do this. Bob

put the bra on... you can always take it off. If the bra is on tight and doesnt make the car run hotter, why not? the bra protects your car pretty good and the blue tape that people put on looks silly. I would try it out... if it doesnt work out for you, take it off. Sunglasses is fine... good eye protection as well.

you're gonna get a million opnions on this stuff. Protect the car if you've **** about it. Owning a detailing business I used to be very **** bout my cars at the track...yes I was the guy with THAT MUCH blue tape on his car and I found that as long as you're not slow nobody will give you a hard time about it (at least not to your face since you just passed them ) I eventually got past that phase and only tape on tracks where I know there to be issues with flying debris now. I personally wear a tinted visor. I'm not big on sunglasses in the first place and really dislike wearing them in conjunction with a helmet. Always bring the clear visor just in case it's not sunny. Andy

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I'm hurt Bob, track insurance has been discussed a few times recently so you can find some additional perspective here: https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/461552-ny-times-article-on-car-insurance-at-the-track.html https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/461641-ny-times-insurance-coverage-at-the-track.html https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/440809-anyone-track-their-car-without-insurance.html https://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/450586-insurance-coverage-denied-if-any-autocross-activity.html Since it's your first track event, I'd go with the sunglasses approach this time. If you decide that you want to participate in more events in the future, then consider buying the tinted visor. I'm sure you'll have a great time at the track! See you Saturday. Michael

I use Xpel on my headlights. The 40 mil film is thick, about 10 sheets of paper. If you are really want to use a vinyl bra but are afraid of scuff marks here's an idea: have a clear bra installed over the paint, then wear a vinyl bra over the clear bra. Sort of like wearing a belt and suspenders.

I've seen folks run with the bra on and then use painters tape to hold it against the car to prevent flapping. I personally would run something on the front of a daily driver, be it a clear bra, vinyl bra, or blue tape.

Get a clear bra, prettier and never harms paint. I would not use a strap on bra at a DE. In fact I would not use a strap on at all. There is no reason to wear a visor in a closed car. If glare is an issue, sun glasses are fine. Visor down is hot and uncomfortable - not to mention the possibility of fogging. Enjoy!

No. Yes. I hope not. The first DE is the most memorable, but definitely not the most fun. Just make sure you upgrade your suspension, get new rims and put on R-comps, install a roll bar, upgrade pads and possibly rotors/calipers, put on stainless steel brake lines with high temp fluid, buy GT3 brake duct thingys, get racing seats and harnesses, put in a 3rd radiator, install an underdrive pulley, take out the carpet and rear seats, upgrade body kit with a fixed wing, and install a camera - before you do your first DE. Well, maybe not your first DE - but there's the list for later. -td

I have a Pyrotect helmet with 2 visors: one clear and one tinted. Swapping is pretty easy at the track using a dime/penny as a screwdriver. I find sunglasses uncomfortable under a helmet particularly if I'm using a helmet intercom earpiece with an instructor. No problem with fogging since the vents on the helmet work quite well especially with the driver's window down anyway.

Jeez, Redridge. It's his first DE,man. Give the guy a break. I personally would NEVER use a bra. The damage from a bra is over a length of time. Sort of a gentle rubbing that eventually rubs off the clear coat and then the paint. Anyway, it looks ugly, IMHO. I don't use anything for the track. You'll get more rock chips driving on the street than you will on the track. I get claustrophobic with a full face helmet, let alone one with the visor down. I use an open face helmet (yeah, yeah, I know), and use sunglasses if and when it's really glaring. Just bring the helmet you already have, and a good set of polarized sunglasses. You'll look way cool on and off the track . Don't forget to bring a cool hat or cap as well, 'cuz your hair will look way uncool when you take the helmet off. Track insurance? Naah. It's your first DE. Track speed and rules for the novice plus the instructor will almost guarantee nothing bad will happen to you or your car. Just go out there and have a blast. After you've been out several events, gone up the ranks and ready to experiment beyond the basics, then maybe think about it. Don't over think your first DE. You've got the right car, now just go out there and ENJOY!! BTW, welcome to my addiction .

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Dude, he asked for opinions... I gave him mine. What did I say in my post to hint of harassment? I assume he has a bra already... why not use it for DE? It takes 10-15min to put it on. If he doesnt like it after a session, take it off as I suggested (takes 5 min to take it off). I know that bras can be harmful if you are lazy of its use... but if they are used properly...(clean, dry and for short use) they are very effective. Again just my .02.

Another quick tip... when you change the oil have it left in the middle to lower side of the dipstick. Do not top it off or you will end up with a mosquito fogger on the track. I've seen it plenty of times. You can always top it back off after the DE for regular daily use, but for high rpm use you won't want it all the way at the top. JIM

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Oh this thread could take a turn like no other

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Let's chat when you come over to the house on Sat for the coffee crew tech session. Trust me on this when I tell you I have been through EVERY iteration. As long as you show up with a car, a tank of gas, and a good attitude, you will be fine. There is SO MUCH to take in during a first DE.

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perfect, oil starvation suggestions. If anything, you want to slightly OVERFILL the m96 motor for a track day.

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Best advice yet. Well, maybe two tanks of gas .

2 tanks would be more accurate ....by the way, Bob, when are you heading to VIR? Friday or Sat?

Thanks, Dell. I'll be there with Rich and Charles on Friday. Are you thinking it may be a good time to have a beer, perhaps?

"A" beer? That's it? Just "A" beer? LOL!

Thanks for the responses, everyone. Redridge, no offense taken. Andy, did I see your car at Parade in Charlotte? If not, I only found only one mk1 aero and it looked exactly like yours - absolutely beautiful and perfectly detailed for the concours. Bob

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Bob...nope not mine. If you saw the ride height of mine in person you'd instantly be able to tell it apart from the rest of the crowd. However it's funny you say that as I even get that here in town. I have a client who's car I detail probably more often than mine that's exactly like mine and always at all of the local car shows. People magically see my car all the time in places that I"m not present! Enjoy your DE...you're gonna have a blast. Andy

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May as well throw a third opinion out there. I would not "over" or "under" fill your oil. Rather, I recommend you fill it to the normal level. As a first time DE'r on street tires I can't think of a single reason you'd want to go outside the recommended Porsche fill.

Glad you're doing this. I will be instructing there on the 17th and 18th. You're welcome to come by for a few hot laps from the passenger seat. I recommend you try that to take some of the heat off your first session, as there's lots to take in, which brings me to my next tip, simply don't try too hard and try to be comfortable.

VIR as your first DE is awesome - fantastic track and one of the best in the country. Elevation changes, decreasing and increasing turns, and the uphill esses to boot. You are a lucky man.

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Let me clarify "slightly overfill". If normal is BETWEEN the two arrows, I would add oil to bring it to the top arrow. Regardless, running BELOW normal is not wise.

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Gotcha.....that's technically not an overfill so you had me confused. I'd agree with you then.

And let me also clarify. I have seen cars, and there are posts here about being on the top of the fill level that smoke profusely during DE's. I am not suggesting to underfill. I am saying that there is a low fill level and a top fill level. Just stay below the top fill level. If this is his first DE I cannot imagine he will be running so hard as to cause oil starvation from these levels. For many oil change places a normal oil fill to them means putting it at the top of the stick, not knowing that with Porsche it is acceptable to be between the marks. Most shops would look at being between the marks as being low. I would hate to see a fun day of DE being ruined by being black flagged for smoking (not to mention the embarrasement).

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When reading Dell's stuff, it is very easy to become confused! Hi Dell!

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Oh Tim, you move from a P-Car to a Honda and get a little more fiesty. Was that even possible? I've been doing this for a long time and not ONCE have I seen this 007 smoke screen you speak of.

I'm with Dell on this one. I've never seen (or even heard) of someone getting black flagged for an overfill problem. In my experience, any overflow usually manifests itself as a smoky startup - usually just before you start a session. And it usually sorts itself out by the end of the first day. And anyone that get's embarrassed from being black flagged (or meatball flagged) needs to understand that those flags can save you tons of money. Anything loose anything can fall off, a strange noise can be serious, and dropping fluids can ruin a car (not to mention screw up the track surface). -td

Dell - It's kind of funny to read the smoke screen comment above and look over to your avatar and see the cloud behind your GT3 (For those who don't know, it's the oil-absorbing "kitty litter" that's kicking up behind Dell in the photo - "kitty litter" is the technical term. Right?)

Only if there are felines around the track. The "tehcnical" term is speedy dry.

I agree with the recommendation to fill the oil to the top mark on the dipstick. Be sure to keep an eye on your oil level throughout the weekend. In fact, it's not a bad idea to check after every session. You'll probably get through the weekend without having to add any oil, but checking the level is cheap insurance. In the 1,000 + 996 track days I've witnessed, (my track time + the other 996's at the events I've attended), I'vee seen 996's smoke, but not because the oil was properly topped-off. The smoke was attribitued to 1 of 3 reasons: 1) Gross overfill. If you overfill the oil by say 1/2 quart or more OVER the top dipstick mark, there's a good chance you'll see smoke. Whether you track your car or not, drive a 996 or any other car, it's obviously a bad idea to overfill. I don't recommend it. 2) Improper Cool-Down. If you run hot laps (not likely to happen during your first DE weekend) and don't allow the engine to cool down before you shut it off, you're likely to see smoke the next time you start the engine. The smoke will eventually clear up, but it will freak you out the first time it happens to you. To avoid this situtation, ALWAYS make sure to do a cool down lap (driven at public road speeds) before shutting the engine down. If the session is cut short for some reason and you don't get a chance to run a proper cool down lap on the track, find somewhere to drive the car at 30-50 mph for about 5 minutes or so before shutting off the engine and you won't have this problem. 3) The unspeakable. I only know of 2 and neither were caused by hi or low oil levels. Both involved older, high milage cars with questionable maintenance histories. My $0.02

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If you decide to not use the visor, I recommend removing it from the helmet. As other's have implied, "incidents" at 1st DE's are extremely rare and practically "unheard of". Consequently, it's highly unlikely that you'll be involved in a situation that will cause your airbag to deploy. However, safety studies have that if the airbag were to deploy, you wouldn't want your visor in the "up" position . For safety reasons, you're better off removing the visor from the helmet altogether if you're not going to use it. Besides, the lighter weight will give you a performance advantage.

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I would not have thought it was possible either, but driving a !@#$%^&* Honda can do that to people. If you drove a Honda, even you would get more fiesty!

Just came back from Millersport today. My tech inspection and brake bleed are complete and my form for the DE is filled out. Chuck Miller in Hillborough, NC is a cool guy - I think I have met my preferred tech. Bob

Bob, you are almost there, just another two weeks and on the track. Hey, enjoy Rockingham this Sunday, should be fun. See you guys next week, off to the OBX to build track day points with the wife. Sorry I will miss the tech session tomorrow and some good stories from Dell. Way to go Dell! Great videos.

Thanks, Rich. An oil change tomorrow, Rockingham tomorrow, and DE next weekend - pretty close to perfection. I stopped by Leith tonight and heard that there's a possibility that I'll be riding in a Cayenne at 130 mph as it moves through the banked curves of Rockingham. Soooo, I'm planning to buy some adult diapers before going. Bob

Another DE Question - I have front tires that are 7 years old. Just found out at Millersport. They're also a little cupped. Tread is OK, but wearing a little thin on the inside - still some life on the outside. So, the advice I rec'd from one experienced Porsche guy (with lots of track time) is keep the tires through my first DE. Wear them out a little more. Then, go buy a nice set of front tires. Is it a good idea to keep them until after the DE? Or should I get rid of them and run new tires? The DE is about 1.5 weeks away now.

If anything you might have a bit more understeer but then again this is your FIRST trip to the rodeo so you won't be able to compare it to anything else Your tires will be fine and from what I remember when we had your car over at my place on the lift, the tires looked more than fine for a DE. Think of this DE as like our Saturday fun runs but with no police!!!

Thanks for the advice, Dell. I'll stick with the tires I have - you reminded me of what they looked like on the lift. I considered making the change b/c the old tires were a little loud/tiresome on the way back from Rockingham. Probably can fix the issue by checking tire pressure and making sure it's right (I'll bet it's a little low in the right front tire). Bob

I'm back, and I'm hooked. Here's a video from Helmut - a friend of ours in his Cayman S. What a fantastic way to get to really know my car! Great friends, great accommodations at the track, great instructor (Jeff Hare), great track, and no rain! I also had rides with Jeff H. (track-prepped '99 996 like mine) and Dell (964 RSA race-prepped) for several laps. Incredible - no better way to describe it. Those guys can really drive. Bob

Forgot the link in my last posting. Here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx-khpaG3m8

Bob, you did fantastic out there! Told you that you would be hooked

Congratulations Bob!! You can now really appreciate what your car is capable of, and the potential for your driving skills. As Dell said many times "it's seat time", and, the willingness to listen and learn. Hmmm, what do we need to buy next for the car to prep for the upcoming season?

WTG, looks like you had the swing of it!!

Bob, where is your video???

FYI - I'm making the family and the in-laws crazy by talking about everything in the context of DE. I'm watching the videos whenever I get a free moment. So, here's my wish list for the next DE (I can hear you guys laughing): - new tires in front (PS2) - new seats - clear bra - tighter suspension Sure, new tools, roll bar, 5-point harnesses, track tires, a trailer, a new SUV to pull said trailer, driving suit, real driving shoes, and for my garage are all in my head right now. But, I have to pace myself. Don't tell my wife.

"...and [a lift] for my garage are all in my head right now. But, I have to pace myself.

You know you are welcome anytime to use my lift. You can always pick my brain for track advice and learn from my trail and error to find the "right" setup. Now post up some in car video!!!!!

Video and pictures are on the way - Later this afternoon. It's a slow process - with my ADD, I end up watching and rewinding repeatedly before realizing that I was originally going to post the video. As for the photos, I have so many great photos, I have to make some tough choices about which ones to keep. But, I think you'll all like what you see. Bob

Bob, now you know there is a brand new track in NJ, over in Millville. 2 road courses. A few of the car clubs have run DE's there. Sooo, if things get boring you can make a run over to the track, some great roads in south NJ. Forgot, you took the minivan. What was your wife's suggestion? She'll take the van with the kids and dog and you take the Porsche. Looking forward to the pictures and video. Helmut got my 911 in his one lap video; I just need a few more hp to keep up with those Caymans. Have a great Thanksgiving

When is the next event? I wanna go!!!! -Manil

Manil, you HAVE to go! You won't believe what that C4S can do! It will change your life.

OK - No videos until I'm at my home computer; I don't have the video transfer equipment I need here in NJ. However, I will be able to post a link to my photos in a little while. Bob

Here are a couple of my favorites from the weekend. There's Dell (RSA), Bob (996 #363), Alberto (Boxster S), Helmut (Cayman S), and 2 photos of Rich (911 Cab). Dell was Rich's instructor giving the 2 thumbs up. I have lot's more of each of your cars. I'll post them to a Kodakgallery album and let me know which ones you want. Enjoy! Bob

Here's the link to the rest of the photos from the weekend. Bob http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLan...localeid=en_US

Good photos, looking forward to the in car video. Looks like we may have some new members of the track crowd. I am sure your experience and enthusiasm will carry over to the rest of our Saturday morning coffee group. Enjoy NJ and have a Happy Thanksgiving, and safe drive back to NC. I think a video camera and mount may be on my list for next season. Tarheel SCC has a DE in early Feb, full course VIR.

Next time we need to get you and your car in more photos

No worries, Rich. Don't forget to check the attached link for other photos of our cars from the DE - better than mine. But, they do cost a pretty penny. http://www.fandsenterprises.com/vircar.htm Bob

I finally uploaded my in-car video from the DE. I included 2 laps of me chasing Ian - it was a blast. This is Day 2, session 3. Enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP9dMwR8M1I Bob

nice vid, thanks for sharing!!

Just rec'd some great advice from Gary Small, an instructor with Mardi Gras PCA. He watched my video and reminded me that when I'm downshifting into 2nd at Oak Tree, I shouldn't grab the steering wheel at 1:00 when I make the turn - it should always be at 3:00. He also asked why I let Ian (red 964) pass me. I told him that Ian's a bad *** and he scares me. Bob

Bob, Gary is absolutely correct. Having your hands at 9 and 3 is really the optimal grip on the wheel and while some "shuffle steer" and some grab at 1, etc, it doesn't allow for the greatest control on the steering input/response as well having your hands ALWAYS at 9 and 3 will make life very easy to know where you are on the 180 degree streering angle axis. Muscle memory, muscle memory, muscle memory.

I'm frustrated! I bought photos of my car at the Nov. DE from F and S Enterprises 3 weeks ago. They processed payment, but never sent me my photos (digital download online). So here's what I did: - I wrote to Nancy the 1st week of December to follow-up, and they said that I didn't include the date of my event - so I sent the info. to them. - A week later, still no answer. So, I followed-up again with an e-mail stating the dates of the event and the details they requested. She assured me that I would receive an e-mail the same day. - That was this morning - I still haven't rec'd an e-mail. So, I called Nancy and asked why the 3 week delay and why I have to keep following-up instead of them. She told me that I didn't provide the complete info. to start and that they're really busy. - When I told Nancy that I'm frustrated and out of patience, she said, "I'm sorry you feel that way." At that point, I was offered a credit. I took it because of the principal. However, I'm pissed because I'll never get those photos, and they were special to me. Has anyone else had this kind of runaround before with F and S? It's a lousy way to be treated, especially as a paying customer. Bob

Bob, I would have done the same thing you did. I have never been impressed with F&S. Some of the best pics I have are from friends at the track as well as an outfit called sideline photography that has done VIR a few times. Their photo skills are leaps and bounds better plus they go to places that have better shots at VIR. Further if you tell them you are going to buy a CD from them (all pics of you for the weekend) they will take MORE pics of you than normal and always be on the lookout for you. I bought my disc with almost 200 pics! Let's chat at the coffee on Sat and see what we can come up with

Thanks, Dell. I'd love to talk about the other photographer option on Saturday. Also, good news. I just rec'd an e-mail from Nancy at F&S. She told me there was a problem with my e-mail, which is possible. Firewalls at work are a bitch sometimes. So, I now have all of my photos, and Nancy was very accommodating when we spoke a few minutes ago - she even gave me all of my photos for the same price as the original 5 that I purchased. She graciously accepted responsibility for the delay and clearly explained the situation, and I place great value in that. We're all entitled to a chance to make things right. Bob

I commend her for making it right and stepping up. And even more, I commend you for giving the second chance to make it right. But then again we all know what a kind hearted guy you are......at least those of us in the "Splinter Cell Racing" crew

Thanks, Dell. You're too kind. I just love that "Splinter Cell" name. I'm working on the logo.

The perma-grin continues. Here are the photos I uploaded today! I love my car! Even with the bra and painters tape. Did any other attendees get great shots of their cars at the DE? If so, post 'em. I'd love to see them. Bob

I agree with Dell, you do have patience!! My Irish NJ temper often gets the best of me. I have a suggestion regarding pictures, we recruit Michael for track days. I just drove past the track here in Phoenix, Bondurant students running the road course. Can't wait for track time to start again in February. We may need a drive this Saturday to fill the void. Good video of your first DE.