160 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHHow many 996's needed a new engine?
Leading reported evidence
Replace by another 911
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I am close to assuming that my 996 GT3 and 997 RS will stay as collector cars, but my '02 996 may not be replaced by another 911.
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Suggestion
From my rennlist experience, I will be looking for an early 996 with 50,000 plus miles on it, run any good examples through a PPI, and check the VIN on the engine to see if I will get lucky with an already replaced example.
Leading evidence: 'Replace by another 911' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check vin' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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My little race car runs fine and if it fails I will replace the engine with a new one, so thats it I like the car and it is worth the trouble and the cost this is the Porsche way, get into it or get out.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
PS.....The dealer that replaced my engine told me this......"We replace ALOT (she put extra emphasis on this word) of 996 motors."
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
We replaced on average 1 blown 996 motor a month with a ratio of 2:1 on the early Boxsters.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
That's easy, 8,432 & 1/3 engines have been replaced so far.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Check vin
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Suggestion
From my rennlist experience, I will be looking for an early 996 with 50,000 plus miles on it, run any good examples through a PPI, and check the VIN on the engine to see if I will get lucky with an already replaced example.
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Suggestion
Either (a) there is nothing to hide and the problem is blown out of proportion; (b) the numbers would reveal an epidemic on motor failure; or (c) PCNA agree to damages and future repair/replace without having to divulge numbers.
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Suggestion
If finance you may find the payments on a newer car the same as for an older car depending on the terms...that said, dont cut yourself short, there are "additional" costs of ownership with these cars and you may find yourself with $1k repair bill for something fairly minor
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Seems like a lot from what I've read... I broke an intermediate shaft at only 11k miles. Porsche replaced the engine. The first one also had RMS.. the new one is ok. Now at 45k I am replacing the ignition switch. I drive it nearly every day. <no cracks about the snow, please!>
The answer to your question is no one has any idea (and never will) except Porsche. Please quietly move on and we will all pretend this post never happened.
dertub,
In case you can't tell, this topic 1) has been discussed ad-nauseam here, 2) has really frustrated many of us, and 3) has no real possibility of ever being answered with any amount of certainty, because as was mentioned immediately above ^ only Porsche knows for sure and they are not sharing that info.
There have been guesses that the percentage of engine failures is somewhere between 5% and 40%+.
If given enough time, I would guess all of them
And I second the "don't let Dell see this." We should disguise this thread as a wheel offset thread really quickly.
Or someone should post some tuner girl pictures to distract him.
-td
Tim,
Have you heard the radio ad for a local mens club collecting toys this Xmas? They're advertising it as "Toys for tatas" Now that's a bargain. Collect some happy meal figures, trade them in, and viola! Happy!
-td
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Sorry to cause such a storm. I guess I got my answer. I was not involved with the earlier discussions, but I am very disappointed in Porsche. I am looking to replace my daily driver. I am close to assuming that my 996 GT3 and 997 RS will stay as collector cars, but my '02 996 may not be replaced by another 911. It looks like the plain 996 will go down in history as something to be ashamed of because of quality issues.
Oh, purleese!
Not heard of the engine discussions? Have you been hiding in a cave in Afghanistan for a few years?
Ashamed of the 996, what part of troll-ville do you harken from? The 996 is a great car and nothing to be ashamed of.
If you're ashamed, then move on and buy something else.
" It looks like the plain 996 will go down in history as something to be ashamed of because of quality issues."
This is the wrong place to make a comment like that. However, if you want to see strong positive response, post it in the 993 section.
dertub, I'm with you. I bet that all those who have ridiculed your post have not had the misfortune of an engine failure in their 996. I owned a 1969 911T in the 1970s and it was totally trouble free over the 8 years I owned it. Then, almost exactly a year ago I purchased a 1999 996 and was most dismayed when the engine expired some 9 months later. Some may remember my thead about looking for a replacement engine. All I can say is that it is not funny when it happens to you.
...Rickker
My engine failed at 59,500. I put a new one in. I still post, and I still enjoy my car.
There are MANY good folks here and lots of intelligent dialog. Being called out for posting another "ENGINE BLOW UP" thread is pretty much the norm.
It's not your sandbox. Play nice. Until then USER BLOCKED.
-td
And pony up to become a member.
we were only diffusing a bomb.... there are threads like this in the past. One of the last ones that came through here was not pretty... good members leaving and one being banned...
There are two sides to this debate.... and that will never change. You either move on to a diff car or like himself, fix the problem and still have fun with it. It is what it is...
Almost 5 years on the board, and you've never seen a thread just like this one? Threads like this are like the jazz music in Ricky Bobby. We use it for profiling.
Seriously, I hate to see another R-lister go, but if you're feelings get hurt that easy, well, 6Speed has room for you...
-td
You nailed it. Anyone who has been around more than 10 minutes has seen threads like this and their results. His claims to the contrary seem unbelievable. We're all tired of them. Hasta la vista baby.... don't damage your thin skin when the door slams you in the ***.
+1
It is these types of posts that serve to drag RL into the gutter, not the responses to them. Enough is enough, do a f'n search for Pete's sake instead of creating a new "Are 996 engines unreliable?" thread each and every week.
Let's get real for a minute here, the vast majority of 996 owners have had zero engine problems with their cars. Have some 996 owners experienced engine problems? Of course, but this can be said of any car make and model.
BTW, I don't think anyone here has ever laughed at a fellow 996 owner because they experienced an engine failue. No one here, that I am aware of, thinks that scenario is "funny".
I assume that you do not own a home. After all, homes have been known to burn to the ground and that certainly would not be funny if it happened to you.
Name one person who experienced an "actual" engine failure that has been hounded out of the forum.
Anyway, most of these posts are about theoretical engine failures rather than actual failures.
errrr, your cowardly cohorts just did it and then you patted yourselves on the back for a job well done in this thread....
Or is there some magic doublespeak that means that this didn't really happen, and that dertub is really very happy with the informed help and assistance he received?
if u think it is a coward cohort to suggest a new thread and then u imagined someone patting themselves for that or someone is in conspiracy against u sounds like..........paranoa to me
IMHO, those who have posted about their personal experiences with a blown 996 engine were not criticized for their engine problems, but rather they were called out for making false and misleading statements about the general reliability of the 996. In these posts the OP was dishing out their fair share of BS aimed at the "cowardly cohorts".
Again, no one here, to my knowledge, has ever berated a fellow 996 owner simply because they posted about their experiences with a blown engine.
Sure, these type threads get old, but...............I would be willing to bet the only people that get mad at threads like this are the ones that haven't had engine failures. It makes them nervous for 2 reasons......
1. They are deathly afraid of it happening to them.
2. It makes their cars depreciate that much more.
I agree that Porsche should be very ashamed.
Whether you agree or not, there are ALOT of engine failures. Just hanging around this board for a year or so is enough to realize the high amount of failures.
PS.....The dealer that replaced my engine told me this......"We replace ALOT (she put extra emphasis on this word) of 996 motors."
I had a dream on Saturday that my motor failed. Interesting thing was that I was actually not saddened by it but, was looking forward to adding a 3.8. Perhaps, it's because I've been so desensitized from the number of these threads that come up? Perhaps it's because I just read about the new solutions for this problem in Excellence magazine.
At this point though, you would have to think that with the 996, the issue however small is well known. Just educate yourself and the options that are around to remedy the situation if it (however unlikely) arises. One has to think at this point, that while sad this happens, it is not unlike other manufacturer's cars to have their own issues. It's well known about the bearing issues the E46 M3 had, but not many people talk about a the Oil pump nut in the E36 or their cooling system issues. Heck, even Honda 6 cylinder cars are notorious for their transmission issues. While probably not as expensive as the Porsche engine issue, they have their problems too. At least we now have some new aftermarket solutions that can possibly end these issues instead of relying on a mere engine replacement.
IMHO you demonstrably have no idea whether people's representations of M96 engine failures are 'false or misleading'.
And of course the 'Benny Hill' distraction team could never be accused of filling the thread with
BS........
all this blown engine stuff had me thinking about dumping my car. finally decided to keep it and when and if it blows will have it rebuilt with some parts from Ln engineering. expensive but enjoy the car too much to worry about it all the time.
Here, I'll make you guys feel better.
My old 2000 M96 has over 110k miles right now and never gave me an issue. The new owner is still enjoying it on the weekends. My new to me '87 Carrera 3.2L is broke and is said to be the most reliable motor the 911 has had besides maybe the 3.0L (SC).
Go figure.
Not sure if there is a moral to the story here, just irony.
Did I just tip-toe through a minefield?
P.S. Dell: Did you ever come-up with an
approximate
rate of failure? We all know its near 100% of Rennlist members who have experienced engine failures have reported them�
Well I have reported a basic pearson correlation indicating a strong linear relationship between level of bitching about engine failure and engine failure. Odd isn't it?
Further, I am able to report that the you are almost correct wrt the number of RL members whom have reported failures have reported them. It's odd, but I keep getting a value greater than 100%. It seems that some are reporting ad nasueum and thus skewing the results.
In all seriousness though, I do feel horribly for any person that has had to go through that. What I have ZERO TOLERANCE for (well I used to and have since decided that the popcorn tasted much better from the sidelines) is statistical ignorance especially at the most basic level. It's the anecdotal and qualitative interpretation that just illustrates emotion's ignorance over fact. Those people that argue from the emotion side and have ZERO data are the one's I just laugh at now and have since moved on. I won't get dragged down by those clowns anymore.
+1
You guys are pathetic. The SAME goons jump all over people who have legitimate questions beyond a simple search and just berate them until they cower away in fear of more bashing. 996 values are diminished world wide and it's not by accident nor these threads on Rennlist so get over yourselves. There have been more than enough engine issues to make current and new potential owners of these cars concerned enough and moreover, most Porsche tech's I know wouldn't spend their own money on an early 996 either. Our advice has been and always will be the same as others with 1st hand experience in these matters. Buy the newest example you can afford, and I would stay away from early 986/996 cars if at all possible (UNLESS you are fully prepared for what legitimately can and has happened enough times to bring attention to the matter AT THE VERY LEAST). Why?? Because I've seen 1st hand that the chances of a major engine failure in early cars are significantly greater than the later years.
I've owned 5 911's as my personal cars AND a motorsports shop exclusive to Porsche. We replaced on average 1 blown 996 motor a month with a ratio of 2:1 on the early Boxsters. My OWN 1999 996 detonated at 23K miles AFTER two RMS failures amongst other serious quality issues.
It's laugh out loud comical to read the same clowns policing this board waiting to pounce....as though your own single example experience that might still be with it's original engine is all the proof you need to establish what concerns are legitimate or not.
Early 996's can easily be had for under $20K, right in line with 20+ years old 911's. You can buy 2 996's for the price of one good condition 993. Either everyone is stoopid....or the market has figured out that Porsche's 1st go at the water cooled design needed a little more evolution to get it right. All you guys who lay in wait for someone to bring it up...are all just pissing in to the wind.
Rant over.
Significantly? Really? I would be curious to see that data. I really don't care either way if it is or isn't, I'm just interested in the data and it's valid reporting.
And vice versa.
Can you elaborate on this please. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying you replace 2 986 motors for every 996 motor?
"and vise versa"
Wrong...search my posts and our shop name "Mind Over Motorsports". Over a 6 year period, we replaced dozens of motors in Boxsters and 996's and are known in town for transplanting 996 motors in to Boxsters and more recently, a 997 3.8 X-51 motor in to a Cayman S. We built and rebuilt motors for street or dedicated race use and had more full race customers than any other shop in town. Many of our customers were/are Rennlist members who can attest to this as well as our knowledge and expertise on the reliability of the M96 design. We also dealt DIRECTLY with Porsche Motorsports for parts and support so I think that counts as more than one of my own personal cars blowing up. The preponderance of those bad motors came from early cars. One of our own techs (Porsche trainer) who we hired directly from one of the largest Porsche dealers in California affirmed this was his direct 1st hand experience at the dealer as well for the multitude of years he worked there.
You guys....if a blown motor fell from the sky and landed on your head, you still wouldn't believe it possible. I'm only disapointed that I allowed myself to be sucked in to this on a rainy day in San Diego. I'm done with this thread but will continue to enjoy your empty retorts so please....flame away.
Thanks Jordan, for saying what needed to be said. Most of us joined this forum to learn about our cars and share our experiences, good or bad. Some of us newbies on the forum have purchased early 996s, and have experienced engine failures, that's a fact. When we report this on Rennlist, we are looking for some solace and empathy, not ridicule or girlie pics. Some of you guys need to grow up.
...Rickker
What needed to be said? Nobody attacked him yet he proceeded to be a hypocrite and berate in such a way that he claims to detest. Then when asked to elaborate he went on another rant.
It truly sucks that some M96 motors have grenaded but the numbers "appear" more than they are because (a) nobody comes to a message board proportionally to post that they are happy with their motor the way those that are unhappy are; and (b) the M96 was produced with such high numbers that pale ANY model before that ANY problem (especially motor grenades) will seem more prevalent than actual.
I wish everybody would have the same experience that I and others have had with many 100's of thousands of trouble free miles but **** happens and it just so happens that there are many more M96's on the road than I am sure all others models combined.
I agree that this crap needs to stop (the bickering) but it NEVER will when somebody posts a thread that talks about motor reliability and then the people from both sides attack.
Maybe let's try something new...........
When somebody asks about this let's speak the TRUTH! We have NO IDEA what the actual numbers are and that ANY motor grenade is something to console over. With that said, the side that is frustrated with all these threads needs to be just a tad more compassionate and those that are on the side of the motor grenaders, need to realize that they have ZERO idea what the actual numbers are.....hence, my call for statistical evidence to support your claim. That has always been my stance yet some people get very uptight when I ask for data to support claims like "significant", etc.
You know this sounds logical and hard to disagree with, but I'm sure someone out there will find someway to take issue.
I don't think that there's anyone here that is not compassionate to those that lose their engine.
There are many of us that are not compassionate to those (who have not lost their engines) that cry, scream, and hype over a topic where noone outside of Stuttgart has ANY statistics.
What in the world is going on in here? LOL
Reading this thread made me tally up my personal blown M96 motor count. In my personal circle 6 motors. One of my own and an other individual with 2 of his own (ouch). So far all of these out of warranty and no help from Porsche. But only 2 transmissions from this group.
For some water cooled comfort; my 993's top end rebuild cost as much as my 996 motor swap. And that rebuild was destined to repeat itself after so many miles.
Lets look at this at one angle.
If you have high miles, more than likely you have made it! Failures were usually in the low mile range. So, if you got 100k miles, enjoy the next......
To those whose engines have "blown up", you have my sincerest condolences - I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It would be great if Porsche would step up. But, I doubt that will ever happen, based on what I've seen/read.
That being said, I'm prepared for the failure if it happens - I knew it when I bought my 996. I was also prepared to repair my 951 if/when the timing belt snapped - I was told that it was imminent in my old turbo. The Boxster S also had the RMS and engine failure stigma. But, I've never regretted my purchases, and I am enjoying every moment.
Will I be pissed if it happens? Absolutely no question about it. Can I control it? Absolutely not. I'm having more fun doing whatever I can to take proper care of the engine and "driving it like I stole it."
Bob
I'm with ^^^
Hmmm, you may be on to something here. Or, it could be (and I'm just guessing here) that a brutal world economy and collapsing automotive markets might also explain some softness in the market for all Porsches. I love it when some point to the 993 market as some sort of proof that 996's are no good.
Here's a news flash for you, the 993 will most likely always have elevated values. It was produced in much lower numbers and it's the last of the classic air-cooled 911's. As such it (and other early 911's) will always hold a special place in my heart as well as the hearts of many Porsche enthusiasts.
The really strange thing is, that 993 values are also at an all time low right now. I wonder why that is??
Must be all those SAI problems huh...
What needed to be said? You answered your own question that this crap needs to stop. It degrades this forum when members are put down, just because they raise an issue that others feel is trivial or repetitive. We all have the right to express our opinions and why can't we be respectful of each other? What purpose is served by posting comments that someone should know better than to talk about engine failures, and then flood the next pages with girlie pics? I thought dertub's initial post was relevant and sincere. So Dell, I agree with you, this crap needs to stop.
...Rickker
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My little race car runs fine and if it fails I will replace the engine with a new one, so thats it I like the car and it is worth the trouble and the cost this is the Porsche way, get into it or get out.
As a past owner of a 100% reliable 996, I appreciate your comments and your first hand real world experiences with the reliability of the 996 motor. Please keep posting.
I thought it was sincere too. I don't think he was trolling to stir the pot. I don't believe he has spent much time on the 996 Forum, even though he has one. I think some of the comments were too harsh.
However, title your post "How many 996's needed a new engine?" and it's an open invitation.
If I got on the 356 registry and titled a post "how many 356s needed rust repair..."
Classic... You berate people for having 'zero relevant experience' - then finally we get a guy posting from a Porsche specialist engine shop, but because you don't like what he has to say, you still won't listen to his vast, and totally relevant experience.
Speaks volumes.....
We are going to need a new thread with a set of propper pics of this beast... no more sneeking in the back door....
Where's Tim....
though I want to thank you for the "teaser" pic
Your naive way in this subject matter speaks volumes. You really need to re-think your logic. So by your example, does that mean that since almost everybody that an oncologist sees dies of cancer that we all are going to suffer the same fate and should go into a hysterical campaign against God for creating a defective human?
And if you want somebody with "vast, and totally relevant experience" to be taken seriously he can't come in with the attitude he has shown and chastise with hypocrisy and unprovoked name calling.
As has been already stated......sypathize for those that have the blown motor but get some REAL data in that we can discuss. Until then it is just hollow statements.
Dell, with all this talk of higher production volumes, and people with failures posting more than people w/o failures, I'm surprised that you haven't also mentioned peoples' expectation growing over time.
Like someone said about "rusty 356s" - think about the distance Porsche has come over the years. Hydraulic chain tensioners on 911s... Timing belts on 928s and 944s... The whole freakin' 914... The modern cars have clearly evolved into much more quality products.
But nothing is ever perfect, nor can it be. Mistakes get made. I'm about to speak from 2nd hand knowledge here - not 1st hand, so bring the salt - but the way the 996 engine is manufactured, the machined area for the RMS (and possibly the IMS) is machine in a 2nd operation. Meaning, first the machine work is done for the crankshaft bore, and then, on a second machine, the machining for the RMS is done. This means, there is no way to ensure that these two operation are concentric (on the same center axis). There will be some variation - there will be some error. This misalignment likely contributes to the problems some 996 owners have had.
So, maybe Porsche did an "oops". Maybe it could be better. Maybe they've improved the fixturing or machining process for later engines. What we have to remember is: if nothing else, perhaps all this will go towards making Porsche's products even better. In 10 or 15 years when we're all driving a generation or two newer car - imagine how much fun we'll have then!!
Oh, and I think a new thread should be started... "
If your engine has grenaded, has the 2nd engine blow up?
"
Van, well said. I think the M96 had evolved about as far as it is going to evolve and my guess is that the current R&D is on the next gen motor.
The reason I have not spoken to the "expectations" portion is that it seems that the hysteria is not in the reporting of failures but in the expectation of failure. Therein lies the problem.
I firmly believe that if the problem was as bad as it is perceived in the internet chat rooms, then surely there would have been a lawsuit that would be able to press PCNA into reporting the actual numbers stats guys like me seek and then we could have closure on this. Either (a) there is nothing to hide and the problem is blown out of proportion; (b) the numbers would reveal an epidemic on motor failure; or (c) PCNA agree to damages and future repair/replace without having to divulge numbers.
My guess is "a" but it is only a guess and not based on data.
My question to everybody is what do you think the magnitude of the perception would be WITHOUT the internet???
+1. Educate yourselves and prepare if it makes you sleep better at night. Better yet, get an extended warranty if it makes you feel better.
Best yet, drop in a 3.8 and have a nice little sleeper (if your motor pops).
Being a super-lurker (planning to purchase an early 996 this spring) I have gathered the following:
-Early 996’s (MY99 – 01) are a super bargain (0-60 4.9 sec, 174 mph v-max, chassis feedback, engine noise, style, child backseat, etc.)
-Engine failure is a strong probability, seemingly especially with low mileage examples
-Although super-sucky, engine failure cost is inexpensive relative to the original MSRP of the car
-Aside from the lurking engine failure, 996 can serve as a daily driver, needing minimal maintenance
-911 eat tires once a year (12-15K average mileage) on the rears, and every two years for the fronts
From my rennlist experience, I will be looking for an early 996 with 50,000 plus miles on it, run any good examples through a PPI, and check the VIN on the engine to see if I will get lucky with an already replaced example.
that's a sound plan.
My plan was... OMG I wlove it, seems cheap and looks in great shape. I will take it.
FOLLOWED by the discovery that 100k is not "just getting broke in" the car had been in 2 accidents and I paid at least $5-7k more for it than I could get it today for.
That being said, IF I could sell it for what I am in it I would...BUT since I can't, I am going to do the best with what I have, drive her as often as I can, clean her as best as she can be, carress her softly, and talk sweet to her. I buy her presents and fix what I think needs fixing. I dont think she wants to party every night, but on occation we go dancing thru the mountains. I drive to work most everyday it is not really ugly out.
In the event something happens to her, I will have to make a decision then about what steps to take. Till then I am just going to treat her the best I can and get as much back as I can.
Also stay away from these threads as they cause me stress. There is nothing wrong with my car right now, so I dont want to think TOO much about what MIGHT happen.... hell, I could total her on the way to work too, and yes I think about that, but not all the time.
You sound like a reasonable person with an engineering background. I think you'll really enjoy a 996.
With a little searching, you'll probably be able to find a car that has a replacement engine. In my mind, that's a bonus!
Your overbearing and supercilious way in this subject matter speaks volumes Dell - you always use the same bum-rush on people who have relevant experience to share, and clearly more experience than you, or I'd wager, any other of the 'No failure Posts Police' in this post.
And again, I think people miss your point Dell.
It's not berating people for having an engine failure or asking about them, but rather railing against those who presume to know about engine failure rates because of their own limited experience.
this is the main focus... I do understand that it may be hard to digest if you are one of the unfortunate... this wont be the last of these threads unfortunately.
Haha - this is very predictable... The person is a troll because he criticizes the 996. Let's ignore the fact that the person criticizing it actually owns a 996, a GT3, and a GT3RS - nope, he's still a troll!
Outside of Porsche themselves, who's in a better position to know about M96 engine failures, than a Porsche engine shop?
As far as I can tell, Flat-6 Performance shared his shops numbers with the forum, and at no time tried to extrapolate them to the M96 community as a whole.
It's the self appointed Police that get all hot and bothered about statistical significance to the community at large.
At what point did this forum become a place where a Porsche specialist, with years of experience with the cars we all own, has to defend himself for providing fellow forum users with useful information and perspective?
IIRC LN Engineering offer an option for boring or stroking? out our blocks to 3.8L and offer a substantial bump in power (Don't quote me but I remember Jake saying that his 3.8 motors where putting out around 380hp). I would assume the only thing we need is updated programming to work with the larger engines fuel and timing needs. There is some info on this forum and in excellence as to the options that Jake Raby's company and LN engineering are offering.
Personally, that's the route I'm thinking about going if my motor expires. As inexpensive as the 996 is becoming and now that we have some promising solutions to some of the potential short comings of the 996 motor why not keep and enjoy the car. Now you have options to make a stronger, faster more bulletproof car.
+1. Especially since the search button is hidden. It should be really big, and changed to "SEARCH (for engine failures before you post another thread on it)"
-td
Many of the 996 fanboys in this forum take criticism of the 996 personally, and that is
very
telling... Only someone who defines themselves by their material possessions would view criticism of those possessions as a direct personal insult.
I can't recall ever getting angry or upset over criticism of a car I happen to own
More of the same "statistics" hyperbole as predicted. This is why people post "paging Dell" whenever anyone speaks of the engine failure taboo that according to you and the rest of the Rennlist legitimate post/owner concern "vetting" commitee say is pure fiction. I never said the 996 wasn't a good car or recommend people not buy one. Look at my signature, I promptly moved out of my own detonated 1999 996 in to a new 01 996 and loved it. It was a fantastic car (albeit with RMS problems like the 1st one). So what, I was happy. I hate to break it to you but there are lots of things that go on in the world that we all know is happening but most don't "require" published empirical data to be convinced.
My point is that new potential owners (many 1st time Porsche buyers) who might be considering a 996 as thier 1st car, and some % of those buyers needing a loan even for a $20-$30K purchase, have at least SOME risk for a potential MAJOR repair that is increased for cars that rolled off the line early on (1999) with original engines none of which having recieved the many updates that were instituted over time and morover, in to current remanufactured units. Many of these buyers aren't Rennlist members necessarily, and as many aren't shopping for a $25K car with 50% of the original purchase price additionally set aside in case the motor pops. They also aren't specifically coming to you for pre purchase advice are they? Hardly....they consult other owners en masse in fourms like this one and most importantly independent shops with at least a "sampling" of 1st hand experience with these cars so they can make an informed decision without fear of retribution from internet goons who police the web in an attempt to deny what so many others know. Search the web for 996 engine failures and you'll find thousands of threads from all over the world with owners who have had similiar experiences. Maybe they should speak to you so you can set them straight? It ain't happening.
Early build M96 cars with original motors are a more risky purchase than later cars or cars with a remanufactured engine. How can you say that's not sound advice? Buy the newest one you can afford, that's it. There's absolutley nothing unique or personal about it. There is a preponderance of data out there from owners and indy's that concur. One need only read the same 1st hand feedback from owners all over the world. As Porsche evovled the 996/997, later production cars experienced less failures. Boxster, same story.
Porsche is never going to send you a letter statisfying your statistical requirements for "proof" that the intermediate shaft design was flawed, or that there was an issue with the cylinder walls in early cars, or whatever else. Please stop hijacking threads that simply seek to discuss a legitiamte concern as difficult as it is for those owners that have not had the misfortune of a failure as small a % that might be.
Lack of actual statistics aside, I think this pretty much sums up one of the other issues here.
There is a wealth of information out there if you
search
for it. Nothing wrong with asking, but since there are "thousands of threads" be prepared for a little ribbing here for asking the same question again.
Well, I suppose it is ok to have "thousands of threads" plus one more...
-td
Classic kettle-pot moment cdod.
And they so often do. That's what happens when you have blinders on.
Again, another kettle-pot moment cdod. Glad to see you keep coming around spewing your verbal diarrhea.
All I ask for is something that will support these extreme categorizations. But yet NOBODY can do that. Instead they point to those that have "seen" an engine grenade, "heard" of an engine grenade, "read" about an engine grenade, etc, etc, etc..
I won't say that the M96 is bulletproof but if it's so damn bad, then why aren't more engines stacked up in shops en masse?
+100000000
The shop sees only the broken ones right?
Although shop owners take offense at this: seeing only the cars in their shop may qualify them as experts on repair and causes of failures, but that doesn't make them qualified to judge failure rates. There is an argument to be made that they are less qualified.
The information on failure causes is interesting and valuable; the endless speculation on failure rates does every 996 owner harm.
In summary:
every engine can fail.
996 engines can fail too.
996 engines may fail more often than some other engines do.
some people know some of the reasons the 996 engine can fail.
few people can put the 996 back together after failure.
none of us know how many or how often these failures occur.
I am working on a haiku format for this.
Put me down as getting tired of these tiring threads. If it matters, the magic smoke came out of my first 996 engine at slightly less than 43k miles.
I agree that nobody here knows the statistics of anything but how many of these threads there are. Go out and drive your cars or something.
No...once again this is flat wrong. We saw them ALL, broken AND in perfect working order as we perfomed basic service, performance upgrades of any magnitude including custom fabrication, as well as track prep and full race support. We also spent a lot of time at the AX/DE/TT's and private track days we arranged for our customers in addition to serving as a San Diego Region authorized POC tech inspection station so rest assured, our exposure to the full gamut of cars working, modified or otherwise was quite extensive. Using our own small sampling of 1st hand experience, we saw more engine failures from early build 986/996 cars than later build cars. In fact, we saw more of the early build cars more frequently for various isues (not necessarily bad motors) than we did the later cars. This was the experience of other local shops too...but hey, don't listen to me or any of them. Listen to LVDELL, he clearly is the beacon of Porsche wisdom having owned one. Drink that kool aid or listen to an honest unbiased opinion from those with no stake in the game, you decide.
Lastly, the extent of your incorrect suppositions of our business (let's include any independent Porsche facility who also provides preventative maintenance to cars in perfect working order) is frankly why you should stick to haiku's and hyperbole.
When have I attacked you? When have I done anything other than ask a question for clarification? Continue practicing your dogma of hypocrisy. What a joke.
unbiased? please do look up the word unbiased and then let us know how in the world that applies to you?
I guess I'll go back to drinking my kool-aid of science and mathematics while you continue to preach anecdote and qualitative inquiry.
Here's the funny thing about the opinions of any shop.
Unless a particular maintenance shop has the business of the vast majority of Porsches within a region, then any claims of experience only apply to the that small subset of cars that they see and their particular clientele.
In an area like San Diego I would think that there are a lot of Porsches in need of maintenance, but in order for any particular claims to be applied to the general Porsche population, then the particular shop in question must not only represent all Porsche demographics within a region, but also represent a significant percentage of owners in that region (a statistically significant sampling of the population at least). If that is the case, then the shop in question can claim experience for a region, but not globally.
Bearing in mind that there are probably lots of Porsche in San Diego, then if one particular shop has most of that business, then they could in fact make a statistically valid statement for that region. HOWEVER, I sincerely doubt that San Diego is statistically representative of the global Porsche ownership. So, at best, a particular shop owner may make claims for the experiences of their particular business, but those claims may not be worth a hill of beans in the general population. It could only mean that the clientele in question are or are not more abusive/demanding of their cars (didn't you mention that you serve the track jockey, tuner set?) than the general population of owners.
Interesting, no?
No, I just find actual real world experience more interesting than someone lecturing us on the correct process for calculating a statistically significant %. What's really funny to me is that I don't see anyone on the Cayenne board asking members where their statistics are when they bash the 03-04 model year Cayenne's. I also don't see anyone asking for a statistical study on the 993 board when they talk about the SAI issues on the 96-98 993's. What about the cylinder head seepage issue on the early 964's? What are the statistics on that?
Personally, I'm a 996 fan. I've owned one and I had no problems with mine other than normal maintenance issues. In fact, I almost bought another one a few months ago and will probably own at least one more of them in the future.
Wow, were you looking in a mirror when you typed that......
Dell contributes to this forum consistently on a wide range of topics, yet apparently that doesn't matter because he disagrees with you on this issue.
Your contribution by comparison?? Well, I guess one can always say you never miss an opportunity to chum the waters on an "engine thread"
Well played....familiar 996 haters like pcar964 are coming out of the woodwork. One can only assume that a good old school 993 vs. 996 thread can't be far behind....
+1 on Dell's contributions to this forum and to other Porsche owners in our region - he's a great, knowledgeable guy.
For those who have experienced an engine failure, what constitutes a "win" here? Would you be satisfied with 996 Rennlisters conceding that their cars' engines are crap? Are you hoping for a mass sell-off of 996s? At the risk of stating the obvious, it isn't going to happen.
Who doesn't know by now that there is risk in owning an early 996??? That has been beaten into my head. But, I don't lose sleep over it, and I
never
try to convince others that they should be concerned. None of the Porsche guys I know speak of it with any seriousness either - it has happened to a couple of our buddies, but life moved on for them.
BTW, one of the guys in our group has a 997 engine that blew up. Maybe it's time to give the 997 owners some time on this topic. The 996 forum is filled to bursting with it - enough already!
It's the holidays! How about letting this discussion die (at least until next year)?
Bob
Jordan,
Why the insults? I haven't insulted you, in fact I have been complimentary. Get it together and be professional, or at least civil.
Of course there are problems with the M96, I think you're missing the point. And, BTW, I do know how your business works. However, that's besides the point.
拍, still a work in progress.
and the crowd chants......SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITT LES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES... SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTL ES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...SKITTLES...S KITTLES...
Did you see any correlation between higher mileage examples (996 3.4L) and less problems? Or If one was to choose to purchase a 3.4L 996, what would be the best course of action (I understand the PPI and the �most Porsche you can afford� logic, my initial budget is about $25K)?
Holy sexual beings! The Skittles thread is insane�
The thinking "seems" to be, if it made it into the high milage group, it "must" be OK. Mine has 107k miles and I know some others are higher. That said, there seems to also be some end to how far they can go before issues arise. SOOOO therefore somewhere in the middle is a good choice. If the miles are too low, that seems to be a big concern as things stored tend to have storage issues ??
If you are in the $25k range (finance or cash?) I would look at a 3.6 (aka 02 or newer) as the prices are low now and you could find one with some fair amount of confidence in the car living a good long time. If finance you may find the payments on a newer car the same as for an older car depending on the terms...that said, dont cut yourself short, there are "additional" costs of ownership with these cars and you may find yourself with $1k repair bill for something fairly minor
just my .02
Thanks for the response; $25K initial purchase (including the Rennlist membership cost), $2K per year for maintenance and I would perform oil changes myself. And the wife is all for it.
3.6L 996 are in the $25K range? Wow.
No correlation and unfortunately, there's no test to determine whether there's an impending failure or not. That said if it were my $25K I'd seek a well maintained and documented 2000 or 2001 (you won't find a good 2002 for that price I don't think) with up to date service ideally with a remanufactured motor. A good PPI from a qualified indy and you'll have a great car (the reman motor is the best part actually) for a great price. Use the money you saved to give your new 996 the best gift you can give these cars, a proper suspension, alignment and corner balance (PSS10 comes to mind) PSE and if you can afford, the RS clutch/lightweight flywheel (when it's time). Suspension and the clutch/LWF setup will transform that car.
good luck.
not being in the market right now I may be off on my words... here is a 2000 with near motor new my home for just over $27 (our area seems to be high on prices across the board, severl 99's in the $23-$29 k range)
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/962099143.html
(ps I think the photo was taken at a local Porsche meet as I recall that background in our magazine, bet its really clean if it was in the concourse)
If you get interested in something, post it up and get feedback.... I wish I had done that!
E
Thank you for the positive responses! Although w/ out pictures�
ivangen: That's pretty-much my ideal purchase. I plan on making the jump in May-09. I will take your advice and posting any example here before purchasing it. For now, back to super-lurking! My poor wife, I�ve been talking about buying a 911 for years.
Jordan: Thanks for the advice and modification path. It�s much appreciated.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
