M96 Cylinder re-sleeving - The hunt begins

Gents, Upon reading the very interesting articles about upgrades to the M96 motor, I have begun a search in the US for an engine builder or tune shop that could possible offer this alternative to simply buying a new motor upon failure. I have contacted the following shops and I am hoping for a reply: Kinetic Speed Shop / Sunbelt engines Farnbacher Loles J3 Motorsport If any other shops would be interested in discussing this, please contact me. I would like to discuss the endeavor at length to find a cost effective (vs R&R new motor) for us M96 owners. C.

Brilliant idea and initiative. Chad, I would too be interested to find out what you find out.

Try www.motormeister.com

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Thanks for the suggestion. I am a bit familiar with these guys. From what I know, they are a big air-cooled engine builder. I am not sure about their interaction with water-cooler folks. C.

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Thanks. I will let you know, what I know, as soon as I know. C.

GMG maybe too? Great idea, although something we all hate to think about.

Just spoke to Martin (996 guru) at J3. Good guy with lots of info. Said they have a machining group and could do this. He is researching materials and the cost effectiveness of making this happen. During our conversation, I asked him about the M96 failures. He also read the articles (posted yesterday) and also mentioned that a low percentage of the cars out there experience failures. he even made a point to tell me his next Porsche would likely be an early 996. That is quite reassuring. Stay tuned...maybe something will come up. C.

Can someone diagnose a cylinder crack without teardown?

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that was a JOKE right ? OMG those guys have the WORST reputation. Do a search on them on Pelican Parts.. will leave you crying

Good Idea.. We need a solution on this side of the Pond. Another idea is to have someone stateside acting as an agent for the folks in the UK that have been doing this. No need to re-invent the wheel. Just leverage what they are doing and apply it to the US market.

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We need a domestic source. With the poor exchange rates on the dollar, it would not be nearly as cost effective. C.

I think just about ANY machine shop can perform the surgery, it is the reassembling of the engine that the machines shops can not do..........Sleeving a block is not that difficult

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LOL, isn't that exactly what I said? We need a stateside outfit that could just offer the same services as Autofarm.UK. Why start from scratch. A shop here in the US just needs to get in cohoots with Autofarm. -P

These guys offer a sleeving service for 944 engines (although they may farm it out - I have heard that a company in Texas is the source for the machine work for this process). Might be worth it to give them a call: http://www.944online.com/cgi-bin/ASI...key_1166716400

Does this sleeving do anything in terms of beefing up the IMS? I don't know, man. I just don't see the point of this especially since the reman motors are already subsidized and it comes with a 2 year factory warranty which is serviceable at any Porsche dealership. Tough to beat for what... $8-9K?

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Remans were $9600 last fall 2007. The re-sleave fixes a very specific problem (cracked cylinder liner). IMS is a whole other issue. You can pro-actively update your 3.6 with the 997 style IMS. The Autofarm guys in the UK have done a mode to the 997 IMS so that it works on the 3.4 engines.

ben...re-sleeving does not do anything with respect to ims. in the re-sleeving process they mill out the exisitng sleeve and insert new sleeves. another advantage of re-sleeving is that you can increase the displacement. also remeber that re-sleeving the m96 only addresses one of the issues. you still have porosity, ims, rms, head gaskets ect. imo unless you address these issues as well, it would not be cost effective to just do a re-sleeve.

In the interest of sharing info... right from autofarm.co.uk website. Re-sleaving is just a small part of it.. of course while you are at it make the 3.4 into a 3.7 and the 3.6 into a 4.0. Rebuilt engines come with (where relevant): * Silsleeve rebuilt cylinder block * New piston rings for the Nikasil bores * Our modified intermediate shaft (for pre-2001 engines) * The latest 997 intermediate shaft (for 2002-on engines) * Updated intermediate shaft chain tensioner * New Variocam chain guides * The latest Variocam solenoids * Cylinder heads and valves reconditioned as necessary back to manufacturer's tolerances * All new main and big-end bearings and big-end bolts * All 24 new cylinder head to crank carrier bolts * All of the latest seals (including the RMS) and gaskets * All other wear items, e.g. chain guides, checked and replaced as necessary * An ECU remap for oversize engines * Pistons are replaced only if necessary (rarely needed); otherwise the original items are simply fitted with new rings to the correct specification.

^^ that is the way to go...

Cheers Chad! Once again great initiative. I'm sure we would all sleep a bit better if we new we had a domestic source.

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Not to harp on Chad and I hope he doesn't take it as an attack... what's the point of this thread if it's focused just on re-sleeving, but there's also mention of failure. Failure has come in various types with the most notable one being IMS. If we're looking for a US source to replicate Autofarm's efforts, then we need the whole ***** and giggles not just re-sleeving, right? Please let me know if I am not understanding fully. Unless I'm getting more power out of the unit (added value), I'm not sure I would go for a reworked unit by an unproven US shop as we simply don't have an Autofarm equivalent here with their history in working with M96s outside of Porsche NA. To that end, I speculate we'll just end up with the good option we have now: Remanufactured engines directly from Porsche, backed by Porsche.

No worries Ben, good questions. The reason is simple. It is cheaper to re-sleeve the motor and do the IMs update as Paul listed. In addition, I am interested in increasing the displacement and having a 3.7L 400hp monster that rev's to 8000. RMS is no big deal. The IMS and cracked cylinders bother me. So why not "fix" the problem areas. Kinda like "Botox" for the M96. C.

Ok, I'm understanding now. I think this update, assuming just re-sleeving and IMS update, is more relevant to the 3.4 original motor owners than us 3.6 guys. But, man, with shipping, labor, time away... I'm not sure the cost is worth it to address something that didn't ever break in the first place. Doing this is an admission that you believe your engine will fail in the future for $XXXX. To me, that's a warranty. Now if there was a nicely updated, proven 3.7L 400hp monster and it was 5% more costly than a reman engine from Porsche, now THAT is something to think about. Anyways, thx Chad. I don't mean to take your thread away. I'm done.

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I've heard some pretty awful things about these guys from other people, but I personally have no experience w/ them in any capacity. search on renntech as well

Chad, great idea. I agree with Paul 100%...we need someone over here that can use Autofarm's solution and make it cost effective. Obviously with the weak dollar and shipping costs, it isn't currently a viable alternative for us. It would be great to find a reputable shop here that would use Autofarm's parts and technology to rebuild our 996 engines. It wouldn't be nearly as painful to have your engine go south, if there was a cost effective rebuild that offered increased performance through larger displacement. When I destroyed the stock engine in my Saleen Mustang, it eased the pain when I was able to replace the stock motor with one that had almost 200 more horsepower. Thanks for posting this information. It will be great if you can find someone who is interested.

i think this is a speed costs money thing (if you want a 4.0L M96), but it's not like autofarm has the nikasil liner market cornered, Old Porsche motors have had these same alloy liners as well if I'm not mistaken. Race shops should be able to do the same if someone can do the r&d (or grab an autofarm motor) and find out the little details, such as how much to bore out the block, what temperature to cool the liners/heat the blocks to, piston & seal sources, and obviously sleeve thickness. If there was demand for hopped up M96 motors here I'm pretty sure someone in the states could do something about it (but I doubt for less than an S/C install). Just out of silly grinning curiosity, does anyone know if autofarm is a straight bore job or if there is some stroke there as well? I haven't heard anything about new crankshafts when looking at their info (they don't have a lot of info aside from 4.0L ~400bhp), and have no idea about ECU/DME tune for that output figure either.

Strasse Auto in Newport does engine rebuilds and have heard they are reputable but never get a call back and seem lack in management dept . I do not think it is a stretch for them since they already do some sort of INS mod and be worth talking to if they can bore stroke etc. As far as DME remapping I work wtih FVD on my custom SC install and it seems they can pretty much tune anything from using there german GURU's as long as you have told them what you have added and modded to the engine etc. The problem to me exsists that it is not all under one roof.

http://www.lnengineering.com/boxster.html There is a member on this site from LN Engineering, Charles Navarro is his nickname/real name Seems like there is a lot of debate over these nickies on other parts of rennlist. So if you can bore out, resleeve, and update your IMS with the 997 part for what looks like not too much money (seems the LN folks have figured out big bore packages rings/pistons/sleeves) and you're out of warranty, seems like a pretty decent option.

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well it's probably all under one RUF in dallas with enough $$$

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Nice link, thanks. edit: BMW used Nikasil in the cylinders in the older engines and caused some engine problems/loss of compression, etc. http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/nikasil.htm

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audi bmw porsche jag ferrari etc. Porsche now uses Lokasil (to my knowledge) and I believe the big F still runs nikasil. it's not the nikasil that's a problem (it's just a low friction coating) it's the sulfur content in certain areas of America's fuel which erodes the coating over time. Common wisdom on this was that fuel derived from light sweet crude will be OK, bitter West Texas fractions will not treat you as well over time. a ton of euro 930 motors with Mahle pistons were nikasil, but from what I remember a lot of US cars were alusil (which can handle the sulfur). This was 20 years ago, and materials science may have come a long way. Someone who needs a re-sleeve should talk to both autofarm and LN Engineering about how american sulfur content will impact he longevity of the nikasil lining. I believe that for LN Enineering to offe a lifetime guarantee they've likely figured something out. For more information on bores and liners see wards: http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_bo...rybodys_ideas/

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that's good info in that link as well (and I'm happy that I'm remember things accurately!)

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I agree. I am a big fan of RUF STRUFF... except the $$$.

Reman engine from Porsche is now more like $12-14k - prices went up!

For just resleeving, try Golden Eagle which specializes in the import market. http://www.goldeneaglemfg.com/sleeving.html

This is a great topic! I have a question someone here might know: What if I love the extra power and 8000 RPM, and want the mod done on a perfectly working condition 2002 996 3.6l engine- would it be cheaper? 1. it would be much more fun, and 2. it would prevent the ims, rms and cracked cylinder problems. John

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into cooling system, but word is the crack progresses quick fast and the window of opportunity to diagnose it is small. Sincerely, Macster.

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engine to them for the work? Sincerely, Macster.

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problems the 3.4l engines do. 8000 RPMs is going to be expensive to obtain. If you have a 3.6l engine in good shape, a sleeving process with possibly an aftermarket stroker crankshaft (read $$$) could possibly bump displacement up to 4.0l with an increase in HP, say maybe a 10% increase with no other changes to the engine required. And engine would be relatively low-stressed... 8000 RPMs could see the engine requiring rebuilds at end of every summer driving season... Sincerely, Macster.

we went from trying to figure out how to address the reliability issue to discussing a 4.0 liter, 400hp monster engine. guys, talk about grandiose next steps, scope creep porsche recently announced their 3.8 with DFI and all the other fancy updates thru major R&D, mad master mind derived applications and they're still short of 400hp. what makes you guys think some podunk USA shop can top what porsche did by improving on a platform that's designed to put out 320hp, that's like 8+ yrs old? while i appreciate the christopher columbus spirit, the M96 is no mayflower of its day. i say we focus on figuring out who in the USA can address 1) an outright failure via rebuild; 2) preventative action by replacing some parts. but even then for the sake of full disclosure... if my reman engine fails me, i'd likely just cough up the dough to get another reman...why? warranty. you know it's put together by porsche. if i want more hp, i'll save up my dough and just get a newer porsche because it's not just about hp right? we always say this to each other.

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#1 is possible. #2 is highly unlikely... aside from what Porsche has already done and normal maintenance stuff.

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I would definitely talk to companies who have M96 experience first, because of the water jacket and the resurfacing of the deck for new head gasket. Also the golden eagle outfit only sees to do straight 4s

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the issue is it's a series of modifications and updates and that's not something available under one roof. you can't guarantee prevention of any of the things you mentioned just by replacing with revised parts, but if you're in there anyway (say for performance enhancement) you will want to update what you can while you've got it open, but this is not trivial stuff. The IMS stuff is more complicated, especially for people with the double-chain drive since as I have seen it the later 996 and current 997 IMS drives only one main chain. RE: performance goals, who knows what sort of horsepower you'll hit bored over to 4.0, but you'll need to WORK for a motor that will safely run to 8K and not ned regular rebuilds. Assuming you increased bore only you could conceivably achieve this by decreasing the reciprocating mass as much as possible: pistons, pins, conrods, and taking measures to reduce friction (polishing is it really, I don't think you want to go to silicon on pistons as well). it's all separate: - new sleeves - if overbore, then overbore - new pistons - new pins - new rings, seals & gaskets - revised RMS if necessary - revised IMS if necessary Of course before doing all of this I'd pobably want to know whether my block was worth throwing all this work into, so x-ray or however they measure for porosity would be a step I at least would want if I was doing something like this. Finally i you really wanted to open up the motor to bore over, I think you could do it with the existing lokasil liners as well (I have no idea how thick the liners are on a 3.6, so you may well need new sleeves but do the research!)

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re-sleeving is an EXTREME measure if you're trying to address reliability prior to a failure. Remember that even new parts fail, and motors die with similar shocking regularity on the 997s. You're talking about open heart surgery to prevent a heart attack, it isn't done, the risk to the patient is too great to justify. But if you crack a cylinder wall, and the alternative is paying Porsche's new high prices, sure a re-sleeve's an economical way to get back on the road. While in there update to the latest RMS design and do your IMS work. While you're in there, there's probably not a man on this board who could resist boring over since there's really no extra cost (you're doing new pistons an rings anyway) and you're not getting a warranty on the whole motor anyway (just the components you're dropping in). who knows how much power you can make, but with a nice set of forged pistons and an extra 400cc I bet you get more than 320, who cares, you're in there anyway. And the podunk usa shop isn't doing major engineering, just helping you with the time honored american traditition of "there's no replacement for displacement" and probably a little extra quench. But if someone needs a re-sleeve, contact the LN Engineering people either here on rennlist or at the link i posted on page 2, see who they work with. The price they have posted is like $3800 installed with new pistons, same price for standard bore or overbore application (I'm assuming your builder will nee to actually cut your new bores, but it's worth calling to find out). The answer is right there.

I was just wondering if it would be cheaper on a healthy engine.

Any reputable Porsche shop that CAN build a M96 and have a machine shop SHOULD be able to sleeve the block, add bigger slugs, and balance for the new setup. This shouldnt be a hard task. Gotta love the lack of expertise in the Porsche world, drives me nuts......... This is the crap that makes companies able to rape customers for the same run-of-the-mill work that is done day-in and day-out on any other car.

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it's pretty funny, not a ton of motorheads and more than anything people are much more afraid of blowing up a porsche or ferrari motor, so the owners won't take them to anyone else (in the US) but the usual suspects, who can then charge whatever they want, the more the better as the owner is paying for peace of mind. How many times have you read on here that you should go pay so and so a premium so you can "sleep at night". Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Ruf et al know a lot more about tuning Porsches than johnny-on-the-street, but as the value of the vehicle declines you have to ask yourself what you're spending that premium money on. If I personally cracked a cylinder and needed to handle replacement vs. rebuild on my own dime, I would still rather give someone the work if they'd done it on a modern porsche water jacketed motor just because we all know the first time doing anything tends to be a learning experience. But I totally agree Tippy, there's just no reason why anyone with a good shop and reputation for quality couldn't do the resleeve, this is not rocket science. In my case I won't worry about doing Nickies on my own nickel until 2010 (CPO). The interesting thing I saw on the LN Engineering site was the apparent lack of demand/volume for this repair being cited as the reason for the relatively high price, but that they introduced the service due to huge demand. In my short time watching this forum, I've noticed a lot of owners desiring the availability of certain solutions and upgrades at lower costs, but I bet the majority eventually take the safest route once it comes time to do the do, and I have to say I at least somewhat empathize with this attitude (I bought a CPO specifically as two years of insurance against something really major blowing up).

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+1,000,000,000,000

so was thinking about this while out for a drive (awful right?) If my math is right, you only need 2.5mm per side (5mm bore) to get out to 4L

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Hey guys... I was asked to chime in over here, since I really don't frequent the water-cooled tech forums.... Pretty much, with exception of the 3.0SCs, most of the 2.7s, most of the 3.2, and all of the 3.3 930s, up to the 3.6 964/993 all used Nikasil plating, without any problems. Porsche still uses Nikasil on the high end engines. 986/987 996/997 get Locasil because it's cheaper. There are lots of differences in the quality of nikasil platings - it's never really been an issue with Porsches. The firm we use for our plating gives a lifetime warranty to that effect and it's one that I've never had to really use with our Nickies cylinders. Done right, ensuring proper quality control and all the individual steps involved in the plating process are done right AND the material being plated is compatible with plating, there's no problem with Nikasil. Case in point, 7-XXX series aluminum alloys are very strong and you would think they would plate well. They even use it for connecting rods in dragsters making big HP as shock absorbers, so the bearings don't pound out and snap the crank. Try to plate a 7-XXX alloy, and it comes right off. Different alloys have different levels of plating compatibility. It has taken us years to tweak alloys to get every last bit of strength and ductility while ensuring the best adhesion possible.

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In response to what we do, the price is comparable to what we charge for a set of aircooled cylinders. Before anyone says, well, it's just a sleeve, you have to remember that we are working with large extrusions for a reason - because we have bought dies to have the material extruded, to our specs, that is tried and true. When demand calls for it, I'll get a die and have another extrusion made up to cut down a bit on the time it takes to make a liner. It blows away the strength and ductility of the locasil block, just as it does the OE aircooled cylinders. Corrosion resistance is also a very important consideration for the alloy used, and ours has one of the best for an aluminum alloy. The extrusion process creates a great grain structure, among many other benefits over a solid billet, forging, and obviously, a casting. Right now, we do the blocks on an as needed basis. We've done a bone stock 2.5, a race prep 2.5->2.7, and we currently are doing a 3.4->3.6 and have another 3.4 on the sidelines to do a repeat when we're done with the current block. I'm not going to say we've done a whole bunch of them, because the price of a reman engine is so cheap, but I have heard of even reman engines failing from the D-chunk problem. It's not as easy as one would think. It takes time to bore the block, ensuring that the bores are parallel to each other and perfectly perpendicular, not to mention located precisely in the same location as the cast in liner. Afterwards, a sleeve is made to fit the block precisely, thickened up to allow for larger oversizes, while still allowing for ample coolant flow like the factory intended. We also leave the factory cast in trusses on the back side of the sleeve, to support side loading of the sleeve. Granted our alloy has a ductility of ~12-14% versus ~3-4% for the locasil at best, the cylinder is a lot more forgiving to stresses it will encounter. And it's not as simple as pressing in a sleeve. You've got to plate the liner, install, hone, then surface the block to allow for proper sealing. What the customer gets back is a block ready to be cleaned and reassembled. We're probably going to start stocking completed blocks sometime in the next year on an exchange basis, to reduce lead time. Same with the pistons. When all is said and done, once you've added in all the labor, you're well near or over what it costs to do a set of aircooled cylinders for a 911, at least from a manufacturing standpoint. Steel sleeves would be a much cheaper option in volume, but not what the factory intended for cooling and depending on the ductility of the alloy, may end up with similar cracking over the long haul like the lokasil (because of the very high silicon content). We haven't worked on or addressed any of the other "while you are in there" upgrades, just repairing the blocks and having as close to original custom JE Pistons made up. The only exception is that I've already made up billet steel rods for the 2.5, since the cracked cap rods have their limitations, following suit with my rods for all the aircooled Porsches. There are tons of photos on my web site for those who want to see some of the steps.

Could you give us an idea of what's possible, displacement wise, with various engines 2.5L through 3.8L (for completeness, I guess)? Also, maybe in a 2nd column list what's possible using factory cranks as stroker cranks. With your Nickies, is it about the same as what Autofarm is talking or a little more due to your liners? I would guess that power output is not going to be linear with displacement (due to proportionally more restrictive heads and all the rest), but at the same time, you don't have to worry about adapting electronics or harnesses/mounts/hoses/etc., so it still could be attractive.

To be perfectly honest, I've never even looked at what Autofarm does. I wanted to take what the factory did, and improve upon it, not change it entirely. I would figure a 2-3mm oversize is a safe figure. That said, I just did a 3.5mm oversize for a race prepped 2.5 and had I wanted, I could have probably pushed it further. More is possible, but I like to be conservative in my recommendations. Cost wise, I'm significantly less than Autofarm, and even more so when you consider the exhange rate. Like I said, I don't profess to know everything on these engines. I don't know about interchangeability of cranks and the nitty gritty of IMS, or even software updates, which would be absolutely necessary to ensure the reliability and longevity of an engine if we increase the displacement over stock. Up until this point, I've been leaving it up to the shops that have contracted me to do their blocks, to work out those details. But I'm sure, as it's already planned that Porsche will discontinue support for the 2.5, and eventually other engines, that the DIY scene will be a big one. Wayne Dempsey (Pelican Parts), is in the process of writing a book on the Boxster, and documenting alot of the details for the DIY'er, which I'm sure will be as invaluable as his current Porsche 911 Engine Rebuild book. And thankfully, we have forums like Rennlist and those over on Pelican Parts.... some well documented photo rebuilds along with detailed threads like many have done with their aircooled rebuilds would be an excellent primer to give enthusiasts the motivation to tear into their own 986/996 (and later) engines to do rebuilds themselves. Just don't expect support to come from Porsche on it from what I have been told by those shops brave enough to tackle these rebuilds up until now. I do honestly believe that with all these updates, the 986/996 engine can be made more reliable than even the current 987/997 engines and hopefully as robust as the engines used in the Turbo, GT2, and GT3.

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FANTASTIC!!! This is why I like to post my ideas here. I am interested in creating a package/kit that could be made to modify the M96 3.4L motors. The key ingredient to the this is the modification the intermediate shaft similar to the AutoFarm version. AutoFarm uses an updated 997 intermediate shaft and then graphs on the cogs used in the 3.4L. Reason is, the cogs are different on the 2002 3.6L and newer (to 997) and use a toothed chain. Is there any idea what it might cost to do this in the states? My motor has 32K on her and so far, no major problems. I am willing to sacrifice her to find out if this works. I'd like to try and find a set of cylinders (damaged preferred) that we can do some bench testing on. Once we have a good idea, I am certain this could work and be quite cost effective as well (versus complete motor replacement). Engineers - PLEASE chime in. WE need your help! C.

Can anyone with broken or worn intermediate shafts PM me. I'm trying to see if I can borrow a selection of IMS to study the problem in greater detail. We have a huge selection of 2.5 shafts, and suprisingly, they all look a-ok. Go figure.

Jake Raby has teamed up with LN engineering and they have also developed a modified billet IMS as well as solutions to other issues with the M96 motor. http://www.flat6innovations.com/ He picked up four blown boxster engines from me over memorial day weekend that are being used to further their development. For those that don't know, Jake runs aircooled technology known for building pretty stout engines: http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm As the price of reman engines will probably continue to climb and I imagine the earlier 3.4 and 2.5 motors will no longer be available at some point, the ability to rebuild and improve the M96 motor will become more and more important and cost effective. -Todd

Yup, I'm working with Jake. He's going to be doing the dirty work. I'm actually just now working on a solution for the IMS. I hope to have something to share in a few months that is worth sharing, be it a billet replacement as we have done for other parts (for other applications) or some sort of modification or retrofit for existing components. I'm also working closely with a local dealership that has seen lots of these failures and their tech will be sharing his first hand knowledge, as I don't expect Porsche to offer up a solution short of everyone ordering up an X51 engine to replace their blown engines :-)

This is really a great piece of news that we look forward to services previously only offered to air cooled motors!! thanks! Pete