Will They EVER Come Back?

Will Porsche EVER come back to F1? It�s a lot of fun watching cars that look like ours race in the Rolex Series. However, I�d also like to see Porsche make a commitment to the pinnacle of racing. I think that making a commitment to F1 is like putting you $ where your mouth is. Here is a very interesting thread I found on the subject but its kind of old. 7/2003 was the last post in the thread. Is there any more recent news? https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ula+one+return I don't want to hear that Porsche doesn�t have the $, or Ferrari gets so much $ from merchandising and Fiat. Porsche could get round up sponsorship $ and if they were serious. If they were racing they would definitely make $ on official merchandise. I'd love to wear a Porsche F1 cap as opposed to my Williams F1 Montoya cap (my fav cap BTW). Technology is advancing so quickly that it seems like the longer Porsche stays away, the tougher it will be to come back and be competitive. Not to mention the lack of F1 technology transcending to our cars. I�m not implying that our cars aren�t technologically advanced, race inspired, or race proven. We all know that they are. Porsche just won�t go to the highest level to put their technology to the test. Maybe it�s the clientele dictating Porsche�s actions. Are the P-Car purists holding the company back? Are the P-car purists so resistant to change that Porsche AG is hesitant to push the envelope too far so as not to hurt sales or values? Look at the 993 vs. the 996 as an example. The 996 seems to be the most radical styling change in a long time. It seems quite clear that the purists didn�t like it. I do, but I�m biased. Even with the 996 being a much better performer on paper it�s still not as loved as the 993. Sinking 996 values is supporting proof. Is it because of the switch to a water cooled engine? The 997 seams to be an attempt (styling wise) to please the old school guys clinging to classic styling. Don�t get me wrong I love the 993s as well as all of the older P-Cars. I �m not at all suggesting that we let go of the great P-Car heritage, I am suggesting that we embrace change. Radical change! Isn�t that what has made all of us as successful as we are to be able to afford these cars? Those who are able to adapt to change are successful. Those who are able to anticipate change are leaders of their field. Those who affect change and get others to follow leave their mark forever. I think I�ve rambled enough. Take everything I write with a grain of salt, keeping in mind that I�m a newbie to the P-Car world. I just like asking questions and provoking thought. Even my own. Well, put another notch the win column for Ferrari in the mean time. Happy driving.

I'm no expert, but I'm of the opinion that Porsche will never (in our lifetime) become involved in F1. For them their would be no return on their huge investment.

I agree that I would love to see them in F1 but I don�t see it as being practical. I believe this has a lot to do with how much technology they would be able to apply to their road cars. For the most part I think that it would be very limited and racing in F1 is a HUGELY expensive proposition. I don�t have exact figures but I believe most top drivers are paid $5-$9m each and that you will need a racing budget of at least $150m and top teams nearer $500m. To put it in perspective I heard that to join this elite group Toyota had to pay $48m to get in the series. So, assuming that they lay out $500m per year it would not seem unreasonable to expect a substantial return on that in terms of technology that can be applied to cars that they sell. By comparison, sports car racing is pretty cheap and provides things that can actually be used on road going cars. It�s a bit like Ducati that refused to race in Moto GP while it used engine layouts (two-stroke) that could not be sold in most countries. Once the rules changed they made their move � perhaps something similar will happen with Porsche and F1. We can only hope�

houldsworth1 I agree with your perspective. I think Ferrari did some transference of its F1 knowledge when they built the Enzo. This however is a very limited production car with over a million dollar price tag. I wouldn't mind seeing Porsche get involved in the Le Mans race again, and do battle against the Audi prototype.

I would rather see Porsche back with a prototype in Le Mans, my favorite race by a mile. I was a big fan of F1 back in the Andretti and Lauda years, but have largely lost interest in it now. As a club racer, I was sickened to watch Ralf sit in the main straightaway injured while he waited two minutes for help to arrive. With all of Bernie's F1 money, you would think he could afford a second doctor and Mercedes stationed somewhere on the backside of the course. Steve 99 996 76 930 64 356C

Yes, the Le Mans series would be fantastic. I remember being at Le Mans in the late 80�s and early 90�s watching the Jaguar�s fight against the Mercedes cars (I was routing for the Jags being a Brit) and thoroughly enjoying it. I was even happy when Mazda won it because they had been trying so hard and taking a very different approach � the sound those cars made as they went by set the hair on the back of your neck on end. Best of all I think that this could be done with relatively low investment (certainly compared to F1) and would provide a real test bed for new technology since the cars have to run long distances instead of the sprint races in the F1 series. Ultimately though we have to remember that this is a company that is a car manufacturer and not a company that has been put together to race cars. I am sure that there are plenty of enthusiasts in the group and here�s hoping that they get a shot at something worthwhile in the future. Barry

Porsche in F1 is a long shot and not likely. The most we could hope for would be for Porsche to build an engine and supply it to a team. It would have to be a similar situation as BMW has with Williams. Unfortunately there is no team in F1 in need of an engine with a decent chassis (well McLaren is need of an engine but their MB contract is not up and right now their chassis sucks). Porsche just does not have the resources to run their own team. F1 chassis and aerodynamic design and development is far to specialized for a company of Porsche size to take on without hiring a lot of outside personal. Toyota is a good example. Toyota is rumored to have the largest budget in F1 for the last 3 years and they are not even remotely competitive. To get any return on investment in F1 Porsche would have to be successful and without the right team they are not going to be able to be even competitive. Another thing to consider is Porsche is so focused on the North American market they want some type of racing for good exposure in NA. Unfortunately F1 does not have a strong following. The same problem can be pointed to at the LeMans style road racing. I really enjoy both but I seem to be in the minority here. However with LeMans at least the cost would be substantially less than F1. Additionally there are more races in the NA. Like the original poster I too would like to see Porsche get back into the prototype racing. It would seem like the right time to make the jump as Audi is essentially ramping down the factory support and development of the R8.

and once in the ambulance, they still had to make a full-circuit before coming off the track (appalling). someone is out of a job this morning.

Looks as though F-1 needs to take note how the CART (OWRS) safety crew does things. They are at the scene before fluids (oil and water) start to run down the track. Hats off to them

Porsche is only interested in racing as it would promote their product to their target audience, USA. The most popular racing here is NASCAR. Fightening to think we could see a Porsche pickup joining Toyota in the truck series! No way they fo F-1. There's very little interest here and the costs are too high. And imagine how it would look as they finish with no points (which they likely would their first year), how embarassing. It's a pity that F-1 doesn't become more popular here. I thought it might pick up since we Americans love a hero and with Shumacher dominating so decisively I thought that would raise interest but sadly this has not happened. I'm sure heads are rolling about Ralf. That was disgusting to watch.

Quote from the F1 site: "He lost control of his Williams after a left-rear puncture heading into the final turn, span and hit the concrete wall on the outside of the track backwards at very high speed - his car eventually coming to rest next to the pitwall. Racefans held their breath as the German stayed almost motionless in his car - but the medical team led by Professor Sid Watkins was quickly on the scene and Ralf was extracted and sent to hospital where it was confirmed he had suffered nothing worse than bruising. He will be kept in overnight as a precautionary measure." Hmmmm....maybe I was watching the wrong F1 race...

Why would a truck and tractor company compete in F1?

As much as I love F1 ( and I too could not believe how long it took them to get to Ralf- too much like another crash with a Williams 10 years old...) I really don't think Porsche could come up with the $$$ . Look at Toyota, the richest car company in the world according to some reports- it took them a long time to get competitive in CART, and a similiar learning curve in F1 now. I want Porsche back at LeMans. The R8's (an awesome car, too bad it wasn't a Porsche) are now all private entries- and Piech is gone, now it's time for Porsche to come back!!!

I was also surprised by the very slow response to Ralf's accident Sunday. Typically, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is considered to be the very best for accident response; I've never seen such a slow response at an IndyCar or NASCAR race there. F1, however, insists on dictating much of what goes on at the US Grand Prix (Bernie's way or the highway), and that may explain the slow, poorly coordinate response. As far as Porsche entering F1, I agree with most of the above respondents; Porsche has too little to gain and too much to lose. Does anyone remember Porsche's rather disastrous attempt at Indy (I think it was probably early to mid- 1980's). They probably did more harm than good as far as publicity goes--the Porsche entry was never competitive. Andy '02 996 Targa (Longtime Indy resident)

Considering Ralf's car came to rest right in front of my seats in the main grandstand, I had a birds eye view and I did not feel that the crew responded too slowly. His car was dangerously place in the middle of the track at the end of the fastest corner. Until they could get all the F1 cars behind the safety car, it would have been way too dangerous to attempt to go out onto the track. I haven't seen the race on tv yet, but it appeared to me that they got there as quickly as they could without endangering the rescue crew. BTW, the track announcer stated that Ferrari spends about $300mil a year on their F1 budget, while Minardi spends about $50mil/yr. No sense in Porsche getting into F1 unless they're willing to spend enough to be the best.

Porsche did rule F1 back in the early 80's though, with McLaren, Lauda and Prost. It's a high stakes gamble though, especially in terms of what they would have at stake in image, and I too would be surprised to see them take the plunge...

I should have said will they ever return to F1 or LeMans in my original post. Which is what I was actually thinking. I also should have been clear on what I meant by "returning to F1". I would consider supplying an engine or any other major component/s to a team as participating in F1.

Yeah, its called RED FLAG the dang race! I am shocked they didnt do so as there were carbon toothpicks all down the front straight, maybe what caused the shunt a few minutes prior with the Renault..

I guess perspective is everything here. I wasn�t at the race this year but from the TV coverage it felt like eons before anyone got to the car � particularly as it initially looked like he was not moving. Of course what we don�t know is whether he was happily chatting to them on the radio saying something like �I�m OK but I�m not budging until those cars have slowed down a bit�. Given all the sharp CF all over the track though I think I would concur with the earlier thoughts (and expressed by the SPEED TV commentators) that the race should have been red flagged. Speaking of the commentators � I think the SPEED guys do a great job. Very knowledgeable and their obvious enthusiasm for the sport really shows. Barry

I think Matchet and Hobbs are exceptional. In particular Matchet�s technical knowledge is incredible. Having actually been an F1 mechanic adds so much to the analysis of what is going on. On the other hand, the revolving door with Varsha and Deburhl (sp?) leaves something to be desired. Neither is great with each having strong traits and very annoying traits. As for the USGP, I thought the camera coverage was horrible. They seem to miss all that action and/or had terrible angles and the editing was so choppy. Does speed control the editing in the races in the US? I know they are at the mercy of the world feed for the races not in the US (usually make reference to the coverage provided by the home country). So do they have control of the US coverage?

I agree with the majority that Porsche are very unlikely to get involved with F1 in any way , be it engine supply or whatever. I also believe that F1 is on the way out and will attract less of a TV audience , the current racing is , accidents and screwed up pitstops apart, fairly boring. I don't know what will replace it , those circuits need to be put to use somehow ! Meantime , Le Mans was always a strong part of Porsche racing heritage , and the expert bean counters at the 'most profitable sports car manufacturer in the world' might be persuaded that factory involvement is worthwhile. Not a brilliant TV show admitted , especially at night , but a highlights programme would work.

Oldtimer I can�t say that I agree with your assessment of F1 this year. While it is true that Schumacher is again pulling away I feel that the racing has been much more interesting this year. New faces on pole and on the podium, BAR and Renaux are both now competitive and the racing this year has been much less of a procession than prior years. Certainly when you compare it with Nascar and Kart it is leaps and bounds ahead � even to the point that my red neck brother-in-law has switched and now watches F1 and WRC while ignoring Nascar completely. It�s not the good old days of Mansell, Prost and Senna but things are changing and moving around and even though he is a God there is a limit to how long MS will be able to keep so far ahead � and I don�t feel that it is that far away. Barry

I really miss Senna

houldsworth1 makes a very good point. The state of Formula 1 is not because of the tracks, the cars or rules, it is more a function of how good MS is. If you take MS out of the equation things are rather exciting. The current "the sky is falling" mentality some have with regards to wanting to change the rules and the cars to make things more interesting is absurd. A driver like MS does not come along all the time. His dedication, driving, ability to have people want to work for him is what makes Ferrari so dominate. Take him away and Ferrari aren't near as good. People forget that Ferrari have always had a huge budget but have not always been competitive. Situations like a weird design of the starter area that disallowed the ability of the starter being inserted into the car at certain angles (i.e. Montoya at USGP) is what use to happen all the time to Ferrari. I too miss the days of Senna. But remember what made it so exciting was that during Senna's years there were also some very competitive drivers that pushed Senna (ie. Prost, Mansell, etc.). This seems to be problem currently. No one really consistently hounds or pushes MS. It seems the combination of MS's driving talent and his ability to get people around him organized and motivated (same thing happened at Benetton) makes him so much more superior to the current drivers. However this level of performance is going to more and more difficult to maintain as he gets older. Not to mention the other teams just seem determined to self distruct.

Don't forget to add Piquet and Lauda to the list of exciting drivers from the good old days. I always liked Damon Hill, too bad his career was so short.

From my perspective at corner 1, Reubens would have won the race easily if Michael wasn't there. Does anyone think Ruebens is that much better than Juan Pablo? It was a long time til Ralf was out of the car, and the ambulance parade lap was a joke. The stranger thing was the Montoya black flag after 50+ laps. What was that about? Risk your life for an hour before the FIA decides to disqualify you? Lastly, the commentary on televised F1 is fine, the feeds suck. One thing you can count on is the wrong shot or breaking away from the right one just when it's getting interesting. It's like a non-fan is picking the camera. Something needs to change. AS

chris walrod, maybe in hindsight they should have red flagged the race after Ralf's crash, but your point does not make any sense when you say: "I am shocked they didnt do so as there were carbon toothpicks all down the front straight, maybe what caused the shunt a few minutes prior with the Renault.." How could all the carbon toothpicks from Ralf's car crash cause Alonso's accident which occurred PRIOR to Ralf's crash?? After seeing the tv coverage of Ralf's crash, they failed to show all of the cars that were continually flying by the crash scene. They kept cutting away from the crash scene footage and did not show the many cars that were still zooming by. It definitely was not entirely safe to run out there. I know because I was sitting 50 yards from where Ralf's car stopped. (I took several photos while standing on my seat) It stinks that Montoya got black flagged so late, but it definitely gave the 30,000 Columbian fans something to cheer about for the first 2/3's of the race. Otherwise I think you would have seen a riot...

I just came wandered into this thread. Island Boy I think you ask two great questions. One about racing and the other about the purist holding back the company. On the purist thing, I think attempts to keep them happy has held Porsche back. How would you like to be among the worlds greatest automotive engineers and be given the assignment to build the best $70k sports car in the world. Your only restrictions are that you must hang the engine off the back bumper, you can only use a 6 cylinder air cooled boxer engine, you need to have big fenders no matter what it does to aero dynamics, etc, etc. I love all 911s but I'm not sure how much longer the design can be competitive. And it's not just the purists, its the "for $70k I better get full leather and a navigation system" crowd as well. I would love to say to the engineers, build the lightest, fastest, simplest, funest car you can sell for $70k and see what they come up with. On racing, Porsche is alive and well racing cars very close to ours. This spring at the track I broke a rear tie rod. I borrowed one from the spare parts for a GT3R just like the one that won the 24 hrs at Dayton last year. My club racing 996 has a dozen different parts (all legal) from the cupcar. Take a close look at a new cup car or an RSR. You will be amazed at the similarities with our cars. Would it be fun to see Porsche in F1. Sure but it isn't going to happen. Would it be fun to see the next 917/962 endurance racing. Sure but frankly I would rather see them racing cars like ours and continuing to sell reasonably priced race cars to those of us that would rather do than watch. actually do AND watch. Just my 2 cents worth. Jim

I think (hope) that the decision was made late because everyone wanted to be absolutely sure of their case before they black flagged him. Also I'm sure the team was pleading their case with the race officials. Imagine the riot that would occur if a driver is black flagged and then on review there was no infraction. Better safe than sorry.

Jim B, Thanks for being the only one to comment on my other question involving the purists. I agree I would love to see what they would come up with if they had free reign.

I didnt say the debris from Ralph's shunt is what caused the Alonso's incident. Drivers were avoiding debris between pit-out and the braking zone before either of these incidents. The delay in JPM's black flag was more than likely due to the time involved with the race stewards and team management reviewing and ruling. It would be a huge mistake to black flag and later say, 'just kidding' Sorry this was OT

Back to the original subject of this thread... when was Porsche ever really in F1???? I think they provided an engine to a team for a year or two a long time ago, but when was Porsche ever a real F1 team?? I can't find them anywhere in F1 history....???

Supplying an engine qualifies as being in F1. BMW, Mercedes and Honda are definitely in F1, and they just supply the engines and Williams, McLaren and BAR, respectively, design and supply the chassis. Engine supplying in F1 is a huge commitment and constitutes as being part of a team IMHO.

It�s a lot of money, and maybe, they don�t get to be the winners. Ferrari with Shumi are a great deal of a Package, and very difficult to beat. So why entry a race and spend so much money, knowing that you will be defeated? Maybe, it�s better to wait a bit, for Ferrari to slow down, and show signs of weakness to entry it. And perhaps, that�s what Posche is doing. W.O.T

Supplying an engine is much cheaper than the $500M tag people are throwing around (i.e. Ferrari). They won't have to pay the driver, get the sponsors, or any of that. Just built the engines... which they could probably do for under 100M, and that is conservative. Even Lamborghini, a very tiny company was "in F1" for a few years just like Porsche was. It would be very easy for Porsche to build a V10 F1 engine. But I don't think that's what people are talking about here. It's also quite silly to say they are waiting for Ferrari to "slow down." There will always be dominant teams in F1 and weaker teams. It would take many years of hard work for a new team to become dominant. You've got to start somewhere. Porsche has never been a F1 team and probably never will be. Whether they put in a V10 engine or not I think is a relatively minor point. But if their marketing schemes - the oversaturation of Cayenne commecials for the daddy and his baby is any indication, Porsche is not very serious about any of it IMHO.

I don�t disagree that Porsche could be an engine supplier for F1. The problem is with who and when? Porsche wouldn�t want to do it just to be involved with F1, they would want to be involved, competitive and have the ability to win. At this time there really isn�t a team in need of an engine supplier that is even remotely competitive, not to mention have the chance of winning and it is not because of the engine. The F1 package is so important and there are not many teams with the resources or ability to develop a competitive chassis. Additionally, with the future engine format undecided at this time, it makes no sense to spend the money on development of an F1 V10 when there is the possibility the engine format will be changed to a V8 in a couple of years. I agree completely with the comment that Porsche is not serious about racing at this point. They seem content with supplying GT class cars in sports car racing, with an obsession with being the most profitable car company in the world and cashing in on the brand recognition that they developed with their past.

With talk of the current F-1 engine formula being on its way out, anyone would stay away until the new formula is outlined. It seems that Porsche is still trying to get back on its feet financially, recovering from what the mid 90's almost did to them as a company. Porsche knows they would benefit more from a sports car program vs. F-1 engine only type of program. I am sure they still have a bad tasted in their mouth from the March/Porsche Indy car days. At this point, I would be happy with factory sports car team, similar to the effort Audi put it with the R-8 (past years)

So when exactly was Porsche in F1 and who did they race with?

McLaren TAG Porsche - they won the the drivers championship in 84-86 with Lauda in 84 and Alain Prost in 85 and 86. They won the constructors championship in 84 and 85 (Williams Honda won in 86). Here is a cool looking page but I can't get it to translate http://usuarios.lycos.es/cporschecat...ag/tag_cat.htm

They also had their own F1 team back in the early 60's... Jean Behra was one of the factory drivers.

then porsche stepped on their dick with an abomination of an engine, the v-12 footwork porsche of the early '90s. they basically tried to mate two of the existing 1.5 litre v-6s (same units for the mid-'80s) with dismal results...this is why you don't make an half-*** attempt at f1.

I think Behra drove in the late 50's for Porsche in F2. This is a good article: http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/con-porsc.html

What does TAG stand for and why was it used instead of the Porsche name?

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/eng-tagen.html

techniques d�avant garde. way back when, i think they were a french weapons contractor then owned by mansour ojjeh. ojjeh was a huge f1 fan and was a major sponsor till he bought into mclaren. while with mclaren, he commissioned porsche to build the twin-turbo v-6. tag also absorbed watchmaker heuer (the then official timekeeper of f1) which then became tag-heuer.

Hey, great site! I've been reading it for a couple of hours now. Very educational.

Thanks for cleaning up the rough edges of my memory, Brian. The stuff I was trying to recall came from high school readings of R&T. I'd forgotten Jo Bonnier, Gurney, and many others. I do have an image of the F2/F1 pcars in silver, though.