Couldn't lose a Miata??

So I hit the mountains today (Mt. Hamilton). It was awesome, I was throwing her through the twisties all the way to the top of the mountain. Then on the way back down, this Miata got behind me. I'm thinking "ok let me lose these clowns." So I drive a bit harder, but I just couldn't shake them no matter what I did. I could hear his tires squealing like mice but they were right on my *** until the road straightened out a bit and I smoked them. So, is a Miata's handling that good, does it not matter on tight twisties, or do I suck??

You'd suck if you went off the Mountain

Yes, they can be that good (also obviously driver dependent). At autocrosses for example (with a good driver) Miata's can lay down impressive times.

Yes, luckly your thought did cross my mind while they were on my ***, but still.

time for the "oil slick" mod...

I have a very nice MY 89 build I could let you have for less than the cost of new wheels and tires, if my wife would let me sell it. They are quick in tight places, but entering I85 during rush hour into the HOV lane is a scary prospect

Miatas can certainly be beefed up to handle great. They are one of the more dominate cars in auto-x.

I had a Miata lap me at the track years ago. He had racing slicks on it, but still... I used to own a Miata years ago, and it handled great. I could see myself getting another one someday and really setting it up nice.

miatas are great cars for the twisties....... don't under estimate them........... but if it was me..... he would have been gone..............like way ahead of me...........

LOL

We have spec miatas running at almost every DE here. They are very nimble and are hard to pass in the twisties - you don't need a 911 to be fast there anyway. One of the fastest cars in our events is a virtually stock 914 (~100 HP). Very fast in the turns - and very light. -td

Ok phew. So I'm not on crack. Thanks guys!

Classic!

HA! And what are we paying all this money for, speed or turns? But seriously, if it were reverse(he in front and you behind) you would have been pushing him up the road. It's a little easier to follow someone elses lines.

It might have been tougher for him to stick with you if you had been going uphill .

Ok so a Miata is as quick through the twisties and a corvette smokes us in a straight line...

911Fiend, there is a version of the Mazda called a Monster Miata. They put a 5.0 ford Mustang engine in that little car. Surely that must have been what you encountered.

That certainly can't be ruled out.

What's-a-miata with you?

Never under estimate a small light car. My S2000 will run circles around my Carrera if it's a tight road. The Carrera has the HP advantage but the suspension is far superior in the stock S2000 vs the stock Carrera. AA

the other day a cayenne turbo S got me down a pass.... I did overtake him previously on the way up, but nada, no chances on the way down.. he smoked me out of a turn like I was standing still.... so it's "Ok so a Miata is as quick through the twisties and a corvette smokes us in a straight line..." , SUV's smoke us downhill....

I read somewhere recently that the thing about 911s is, "... you have to be a hero to drive one really fast." I think it's true. Someone who has the skill and guts to drive one of these at 10/10ths would have left a Miata for dead. But surely we'd all admit that, other than on a track, few have the nerve to take our cars right to the edge. Would that be a fair comment?

I don't know what's wrong with you guys. I'm a good enough driver that it would take at least a well-engineered German car to beat me down the mountain. Say, a later Opel Kadett or maybe even a Mark I VW Rabbit .

I had dumb pickup truck challenge me on a particularly tight S turn that I do every day on my commute. I know I can do it at better than 60 miles, but when this dumb bozo stayed with me side by side and starting drifting into my lane at 40 mph, I immediately backed off and let him go. Unfortunately he didn't lose it, but I am sure he thinks he smoked a Porsche. It just wasn't worth wrecking him, probably into me, to prove the point. Just remember if you get caught racing, the penalties can be quite severe.

Man that is crazy I would never attempt it with anyone going side by side, and you're backing off could have made your self lose traction and then you'd be the one losing control.

Good point. It's pretty clear that if the Miata's tires were squealing in turns then the miata was pretty close to 10/10ths.

The bay area has a huge miata following. I used to go to alot of the meets when I had my miata in the bay, along with track days with the BAMO group all the time. Tons of fast miata drivers out there, I've taken a few porsches in the hills before with my supercharged miata.

I vintage race a Fiat with 155 hp. In practice all closed wheel cars are out together which means I am out with the big boys. Camaros, Mustangs..... running 400+ hp. In the twisties I can easily pass the lesser drivers but then on the straights they zip past so I can pass them again Lot's of fun and they really like getting passed by a Fiat

i had an rx-8 and that thing corners like no tom..........

of course it wasn't stock either.....

On a very tight track a 20 year old 944 can keep up to any 911 in the corners. I would also point out that is it much easy following because you instinctively will brake later and harder, where as in the front you don't have that sense. It's funny how when I am behind someone I am thinking " come on buddy, hurry tfu!" and when you're in front "man, I can't shake that bit$H off my ***"

Jumper, you ar so right with that observation. On a recent BMW tour in Vermont, the pace was fast as we drove thru the countryside...traffic was light, police were not around, and stop signs/traffic lights were rare. The lead car was an M5, and as the second car in line, I was able to keep up with him comfortably in my 2.5 Z3 (even as we hit 100+ mph) for the very reason you mentioned in your post!

Ok, this thread is getting a little ridiculous with Miata's, S2k's, and NA 944's keeping pace with 996's. If you really want to be honest each of these situations (while entirely plausible) is very driver dependent. Truth be told with equal drivers a 996 will walk away from any of these cars on even the tightest course. Want proof??? Look no further than the SCCA's Solo II classifications for any of these cars (the 996 resides in the king of the hill SS class). With unequal drivers anything is possible, but with two equal pro's the 996 will walk away from all of the above.

Those SCCA results are as good an indicator as there could be. Good post.

Thanks Ray. I'm sitting here reading this and thinking these guys suck! Ah, no offense or anything.

Actually with two equal drivers other than the real experts, the Miata will probably leave the 996 on the downhill twisties. And squealing tires on a Miata are WAY less significant on a Miata than on a 996. A Miata slides nice and easily - really progressive. A 996 near the limit is far more likely to bite, with or without PSM. I used to have a Miata, and there was a nice clear set of bends on the way to work - when there was no traffic I used to drift the car through every bend. No way I'd do that with the 996, and no way would I be able to get through those bends any quicker with my 996 until I'd been through them a number of times. Which brings another thought to mind - how many times had you been down that road before? Perhaps he used it a lot, and knew every bend?

You mean RMS?

There's one obvious reason that proves for me that the M5 and the 996 did not touch their limit: brakes! Stock brakes on a Z3 2.5 or on a Miata would not keep up with M5/996 brakes. I once experienced this on a speedy tour with some friends (3 996, 3 M3 and 3 Japanese cars - Nissan 300Z and Mazda 6). The Mazda had a tuned strong engine, but after a while he had to stop as his brakes gave up!

I had an 00' Sport Suspension Miata and they do handle very well. They are hard to beat in a tight auto-X. I auto-X'd it for 2 events a month for 3 years. At the national level in the last couple of years, they have even been faster than next higher class with S2000s and Boxsters at some national events. They definitely grip and are very nimble, but on a road course is a different story. They don't have the brakes or power for longer runs. The power is the only real disappointment to these cars. They definitely lack power and torque. Due to the lack of power, they don't have to brake as much so the brakes seem better than they really are. It was quick enough that I could keep up with my bosses (at that time) 98' Boxster up to 100, but not above that. My 00' couldn't go a lick over 124 mph (top down or top up) and accelerated extremely slowly once it hit 100. It was the lack of power that really got me to get rid of it, I was simply used to cars with so much more power. We have a few Miatas that run our DEs, even a couple of spec Miatas driven by instructors. They are very good drivers in great handling cars. The problem is there is a lot of space between corners. This makes them almost a nuisance trying to run with us. They are easy to leave in the dust when you easily pull away from them powering out of corners and run 30+ mph faster on the straights. Unless this was a very tight mountain road, best guess is you need to get more aggressive on the power and brakes to use your advantages. Just with handling you will not outrun one, in fact it might actually beat you. One other thing to note, when I had my Miata I used to park my Miata and my 79' 911 S/C in the garage. Believe it or not, except for height they were the same size. They had about the same wheelbase, length and width. I never realized how small a 911 was until it sat next to the Miata. The S/C had more interior room, a bigger trunk, bigger brakes, wheels, tires, almost twice the size of engine and was only 150 lbs heavier. It isn't hard to figure out which one I kept.

What you are describing is your comfort level with the car, not the capability. A Miata may be easier for a novice driver to push comfortably because it is slightly more forgiving, but with good drivers it's not going to keep up with a 996 even going down hill.

Ok, so RayS thinks I suck. I probably do for now. Heck I've only had the car for a month and it was my first time on that steep curvy *** road. I know I was at my personal limit with the car (i.e. braking early). It's good to know I still have a lot of room to improve with this car. I'd really love to see someone take my 996 through those turns faster than I did though.

um... I think I'd rather see someone take THEIR own 996 through those turns... You should consider PDE (I think the name's changed, however). I'm looking forward to signing up myself this year sometime... Jimmy

HA! Clever!

So squealing tires don't mean you are pushing the car close to 10/10ths? If this guy is following a line and squealing tires I doubt he had much more to give. I think if the 996 bumped up 2-4 more MPH the miata would have backed off.

I took at quick look at some track times as an indicator of the difference. At Mid-America which is a small, tight track that would favor the Miata, the fastest spec cars apparently run 1:46s. My stock class 996 ran 1:40s. The mods are probably pretty similar and I'd guess the top spec drivers are better than me. BTW, the track record for a 996 cup car on slicks is a 1:33.6. Not exactly an extensive analysis but for what it's worth it would indicate that your cars are as close to a cup car as the Miata is to you. Bottom line, you suck! (Just kidding of course) Jim

Hey....I never said that. What I would say is the Miata can be a more forgiving car and is a little easier to push hard.

You mean the Miata driver didn't give you any sort of RESPECT? The travesty! There's trickery afoot here. (I'm just kidding!)

i understand that, in our Rennlist member bylaws, there's a provision where you are required to forfeit your membership in circumstances like this. in fact, i recall some fine print that you may even have to turn in your p-car. primitive, ritualistic, traditions, yes, but rules are rules and we have integrity to uphold.

So to conclude, the three points being developed in this thread relate to: CAR CAPABILITIES: What are the relative capabilities of cars being compared (e.g., the Miata to the 996) and what conditions favor one car over another. This can be a valid (and fun) discussion, especially, for example, when you see a Mini beat much more powerful cars at an autocross. DRIVER CAPABILITIES: The relative performance of disparate cars occurs not only because of disparate car capabilities, but also because of disparate driver capabilities (hey, I wrote a sentence using the word "disparate" three different times!). An underpowered car with a skilled driver can make a more powerful car with a less skilled driver look silly. TOURING: When touring with a group of sports cars, it can be very advantageous to be in the second position as you watch what the lead car is doing. This is especially valuable when you're in unfamiliar territory with blind turns, humps, hills, etc. and you get a better chance to set up your car because you can see what the lead car is coping with. Is the Z3 a match for an M5 overall? Of course not, but being second lessens some of the M5's advantages and can allow the second place driver to keep close. And in my imagination, Michael Schumacher was in the M5 and he couldn't pull away from me................ahhhhhh.

Exactly! They need to fall in line just like the slow lushes on the left lane and the valets...

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It depends on which 911. Compared to my S/C, the Miata was incredible easy to drive. I autocrossed my Miata and my S/C in the same day. I spent my of my time with the S/C trying to avoid spinning, while I spent my time in the Miata really driving. Comparing a miata to a 996 is a different story. A 996 is incredibly stable. I still fail to understand why you would ever need PSM or 4WD with these cars. They are easily as stable as a Corvette. They have none of the looseness in the tail that an old 911 has. I truely believe a stock 996 is as easy as a stock Miata to drive fast. This doesn't mean that a Miata can accelerate with a 996 or that a 996 will take transitions like a Miata. When I was Autocrossing my Miata, I spun it a few times. I have also spun my 996 at the track. If you are a top driver and can drive a 996 over the limits, it feels like that old S/C; but up the limit (which is very high) it is no harder to drive than a Miata.

Take your car to the track, get some good instruction, and have your eyes opened as to what these cars can really do. You'll be amazed at how much reserve performance you never knew your 996 had. I've done a few DE's and I am hooked now.