I-85 South, Greensboro NC area, POP radar in use....

Trust me, I know.

ticket today?

Are you sure it wasn't the standard "instant on" radar that NC State Police use?

Could have been, but with the heavy flow of traffic, I'm sure I would have had at least a minor bleep on the V1. Yes Wellard, pink paper to take home for souvenir. Atty will be underway on this shortly. I was not doing anything erratic, really moving with the traffic on a wide, 3-4 lane section of new highway. They had a field day from what we saw beyond the trigger point - one Hemi Dodge on the median, and a flurry of cycle cops pulling half a dozen cars to the side over a few miles stretch. And I wasn't even in the Porsche.

It's the economy, stupid!

Were you pulled over as one of a group of cars? My cousin was ticketed today at the same place, he was on his way to a cycling event in Greensboro. He was doing 30 over....

Ouch! It sucks when you're pulled over when going with the flow of traffic - no excuse for that.

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ouch, what was asking price for that one

Ya, he wasn't clocked with radar, but was pulled over in a group of cars (unrelated people) and the officer said he was 'on their bumper' and so he couldn't have been going faster. Does that stand up in court? Not sure how much it will cost him. Oh yeah, my cousin is 18... I don't think he has used his PJC.

Not a group, but I noticed at least 4 other vehicles at different spots along a few miles of I-85 S and N at that area. The Hemi was the first visual sighting I had, so I was screwed. The cycle cop showed up 5 mins later behind me. Interesting that POP is not accurate, so I really want to find out what they were using. State Highway Patrol.

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Ouch - not sure he can use a PJC for 30 over; this changed recently I think; better lawyer up. Tell him to Google 'NC speeding ticket'; all kinds of info out there; HERE's a good starting place

what's a POP?

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Link Link [pdf]

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm headed into Winston-Salem later this afternoon and will be passing through that area afterward.

Eric- I would let V1 know that you had an issue with the POP detection and see what they do.....Maybe nothing, but worth a quick call.

Contacted V1, they apparently track what's in use state by state. NC does not have POP hardware. They think it was instant on laser, but even that did not light up my V1 for a split second.

It should say the method of speed detection on the ticket - let us know what it says and we'll figure it out from there.

Damn Eric, that SUCKS!!! BTW, getting this "taken care of" isn't going to reduce the proceeds of the will, is it?

From my experience in NC, they use "instant on" mostly at night but tend to use "pacing" during the day.

It was instant on Laser. Standing radar. But I found a really good atty and am hopeful.

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Eric, If you have not had a ticket for a moving violation in the last 3 years, you can get the ticket dismissed under NC's laws. You will still have to pay the fine, but the points will not go on your record. Don't ask me how I know this!

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That's good because fighting a ticket from a laser is tough.

so V1 is no good on POP then?

V1 does POP; see my link in post #13

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And Eric still got a ticket because?

.......because he didn't get POPd

So his V1 was useless in this case

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I guess you could say that. The V1 can still pick up Laser, but since it was instant on, little would have been useful in this situation regardless.

Yes, the V1 was useless. BUT I still trust it, just a bit less than before. Drive safe everyone. I was in a pack of traffic moving at a good clip, not sure the actual speed of those around me, but I was NOT leading the pack, nor was I driving like an idiot. If there had been a bit more time, I could have reacted. But it was a true ambush. Laser equipped Hemi Dodge was perched in a blind spot around a slight curve coming up a gentle hill. Everything played right to the cops, not to me. The split second laser won't give much 'bounce scatter' for other detectors to pick up, and of course, they had me in their sights, so who knows what could have been. Anyway, the key here is be careful no matter what your radar equipment and vehicle are.

The key is to try and not push it farther than 10-12mph over. 6mph over for Red Porsche Drivers. Eric, what did they cite you for?

That's the thing Eric - it doesn't matter which detector you have because when it comes to laser, then it's just detecting that you just got a ticket, rather than giving you advance warning of upcoming issues.

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Not completely accurate. My built-in Escort SRX has laser jamming features that seemed to have worked well on several occasions.

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I've never heard of "instant on" laser. You should look into purchasing a laser jammer.

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Yes, my comment was accurate. If your detector goes off with a laser hit, then you can be pretty confident that you were just hit with a laser and if you're speeding, then you will get a ticket. Lasers are focused and narrow field. They are used over shorter distances, hit a small portion of your car and do not scatter as much as radar and do so over much shorter distances (making it harder to detect upcoming use of laser detection). The presence of a laser jammer is a different issue. If you're hit with a laser while running a laser jammer, then your chances are better, but not guaranteed to be ticket proof.

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Laser is always "instant on" - there is no other kind. Speed detection is immediate.

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HA! If you say so.

Yeah, because we all know that a fraction of a second is just not "instant" enough. http://www.howstuffworks.com/question396.htm http://www.ee.buffalo.edu/faculty/ca...ions/lasar.pdf

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Not correct - with a sensitive LASER detector, correctly mounted, you can and do pick up LASER scatter from other vehicles that are being targeted.

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Not correct - sure the LASER starts up immediately, but the officer controlling the LASER then has to select your vehicle in his viewfinder, track it, and get a reliable reading. Non of this is instant - mainly due to the human factor in control of the technology, and the fact that the LEO has to find a suitably reflective area on the vehicle to get a speed reading from the bounced LASER. As this video illustrates, there's a lot of surface area on a car that doesn't reflect well! http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...ivity-Rear.flv The myth of LASER being instant and 100% effective is one put about by LEOs and LiDAR manufacturers. As in this through the lens shot - the LEO has to target the license plate in order to get a suitably reflective surface for speed measurement. And while he's 'painting' your car trying to get that lock - you have a chance for detection and reaction - I've had it happen myself. You need to do more research before pedaling the marketing BS.

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The detection range for LIDAR (under ideal conditions and good weather) is typically around 1Km or less. The detection range for RADAR (under ideal conditions) is a few miles. That difference in reality is the difference between having a few seconds (depending on speed) and a few minutes before you actually see the speed trap in question.

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Yes, there is always a human element (except in the case of mounted cameras) and that will slow down detection. That being said, laser is the fastest speed acquisition method. Your comments on reflectivity are correct, but it's all relative. All parts of the car reflect the laser and will allow targeting and data acquisition - the real life differences are really a matter of nanoseconds in terms of pulse counts. I KNOW that my reaction time isn't that good. It's really your call on whether you're willing to gamble as to whether you can slow down faster than the LEO can acquire a speed on you over a distance that is relatively very close. Bear in mind that over the distances that LIDAR are used you can not only see the LEO, but you can also see his eyes. We're not talking about long distances here and at 60+ MPH that does not give anyone a lot of reaction time to adjust their speed.

You're already gambling if you're speeding. I'm merely pointing out, what it actually mentioned in your second linked post - that the human element makes LiDAR less than a 'done deal' or a 'slam dunk'. The distance argument is also somewhat bogus - current production LiDAR units have target ranges of 4,000, 6,000, even 7,000 feet! (There are 5280 feet in a mile) As for 'All parts of the car reflect the laser and will allow targeting and data acquisition' - that's absolutely incorrect. Check out the tests - they aim to hit plate or headlight on a moving target to get a reliable reflection As above - you'll see the LASER on the plate to get a locked speed reading. That's why products such as VEIL can be effective when used with a good Radar/Laser detector. Here's a set of test data from the Guys of LiDAR You can see that with the headlights targeted, and then again when treated with VEIL - the detection range dropped hugely in almost all cases when VEIL was used over the headlights. This again illustrates the requirement to have a satisfactory reflection of the pulsed LASER in order to get a speed lock on the moving vehicle. And you headlights and plates are the primary targets for the LEO.

Just for interests sake - where did you mount your V1 on your car Eric?

V1 is mounted high, but below shade tint line. And yes, I DO have laser jamming, but NOT on this vehicle. THIS WAS NOT MY PORSCHE! And as far as detector picking it up, I WAS TARGETED AND FIRST IN THE LINE AS THE PACK WENT THROUGH THIS AMBUSH. If those conditions exist, and they are targeting with either instant-on or short burst, NO equipment will help. If you are first in the pack, you're toast. However, with my K40 system in the Porsche, I have yet to get into trouble. The V-1 in the vehicle works just fine, but everything that could have worked against me - did. Wrong time, wrong place, etc. And because I was in a mid-sized SUV, I gave a much larger target option for the smoky. Smaller vehicle, less options. Oh well. Good attorney, hopefully good news will come.

FWIW - Professional Radar/Laser detector folks suggest mounting low on the windshield to give best chance of detecting a LiDAR pulse. As the spread from the LASER is small, even at distance, mounting low and closer to the level of your headlights and plate give you better LASER detection odds. http://www.radarbusters.com/mountdet...rlyarticle.cfm Your experience of zero V1 LASER trigger may well be due to the position high on the windshield.

Possible, but I've had laser reads on it before, and won't put it down low. Always keep them up near the mirror height. To each his own, I guess, but no matter where it was, it would not have helped me in this case, trust me.

I've tended to have a few rules that have served me pretty well: - if the entire area of traffic around me (not just a few cars) is exceeding the limit, I don't worry too much about getting singled out (my choice of silver for the car color was not arbitrary). - If I'm on the road by myself, there is little chance to get a warning of a cop measuring the speed of someone in front of me. There is a range (generally about 10% over) where I might or might not get a ticket--depending on a variety of factors I can't control (like the mood of the officer). I try to stay in that range--if I go higher, then I know I'm putting my wallet directly at stake. If I'm in a Big Hurry, I take a minute to mentally calculate, for the distance I need to go, how much time I will actually gain by going 10-20mph faster. Usually, it's only 2-3 minutes -- that tends to calm me down & I flick on the cruise control to get my foot off the gas. - If cars start to follow me at higher speeds, I try to get them to pass me...for a couple of reasons. I think it reduces unmarked cars following me. It also means that if I slow abuptly because of radar/laser--I won't have someone running into my rear. If someone wants to pass me at a high rate of speed, I pull over and mentally thank them profusely for driving interference and pulling any waiting cop out of the bushes before I get there. - Some days, I really want to straighten out a road and it's not a track day. I have a couple of favorite country roads where few people live and the roads have great driving features. Even though I've driven them before, I drive down them again, looking for gravel, kids, tractors...stuff that's changed. If I get to the end and all looks ok, I still take a minute to check my tires and make sure the car's ok....then drive back at speeds I find challenging and entertaining. Ok...it's a little obsessive. But I would find it hard to live with myself if I injured others for my recreation (have known people who did that) and I'd feel pretty stupid to end up, upside down in a field because of gravel or a low tire that rolled off a rim (have known people who did that).

Each to their own I guess. It's not rocket science to understand how mounting high will handicap the ability of any detector to see a LASER hit on the car - and hence remove any chance for the detector to alert the driver. Unless of course people don't understand how LEOs use the LiDAR, and how the technology works. (As has been clearly demonstrated on this thread already) It's unfortunate that people spend large sums on their detector technology, then erroniously believe that slapping it anywhere on the car will 'protect them'. I would heartily recommend that anyone reading this thread go check out: http://www.radarbusters.com/moreharmthangoodarticle.cfm Read the whole article - which is not product specific - and take note of the real world experience and advice. As noted in the excellent write-up - "If you don't know how to use your radar detector, it may do you more harm than good."

Sorry about your bad luck, Eric. Hope all goes well. Interesting thread. Added some more to the fund of knowledge regarding speed detection and enforcement. Agree, though, that the chances of detecting laser scatter from another car being targeted far ahead enough so that you can slow down is highly unlikely, maybe even wishful thinking. You get a laser warning, you get a ticket. Maybe less so if you have laser diffuser. Nothing would have worked in Eric's case. V1 would not have helped. It obviously did not. Detectors other than V1 would have helped (sorry, could not resist )

I just posted a few details of my laser install based on a recent NC ticket... Seems like NC is getting pretty militant with laser enforcement lately. I'm not hawking Blinders - but can probably offer a very good deal if anyone's interested. Anyone want to start a group buy? Link to my Blinder Install Post

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you didn't just go there!

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:0 Someone posted it was kinda boring, so I thought I'd start some fireworks .

I agree with cdodkin, I mount the 8500 low in the widow in my wifes car so that you have a better chance of catching the laser when they aim for the headlights. In my Porsche I mount the detector high ( to help with radar detection) and I have ZR3 laser jammers mounted below my headlights. this picks up laser and jams it where they are aiming. I have no front plate. It has worked twice for me. traveling 90+ popped over a hill and there was a trooper with laser. He lit me up right away, I hit the brakes hard, slowed to 65 (speed limit 70) and then turned the jammer to mute. his reading was at 65. he gave me a glance when I drove by but then just kept on shooting more cars. It worked great.

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How'd you know his reading??

Sadly, Eric got zapped at close distance - the further away you are the better chance you have - at close quarters you're pretty much screwed. Some states mandate a maximum distance of 1000 feet for validity of the results (hence the reason why these devices are so effective - little time to react). At 500 ft the beam diameter is around 18" and makes detection fairly easy. At 1000 feet the beam diameter is around 3 feet wide (talk of aiming at plate is pretty silly when you have a 3ft wide spot). At 1500 ft the width is greater than the width of a car (approx 56") and pretty much becomes a useless measurement as the accuracy is so poor. Bearing in mind how problematic giving out tickets becomes when you're >1000 ft away here's an interesting thread on how a person in MA defended herself from a LIDAR ticket. http://www.radardetector.net/forums/...1550-feet.html The thing to bear in mind is that LIDAR is a close quarters weapon, so that gives you less time to react. The only ticket I've ever gotten for speeding was with LIDAR. I was close enough that we looked each other in the eye and he just waved me over from the shoulder... that taught me the lesson of not getting annoyed with slow old people and overtaking at speed.

Some notes from the V-1 website below. Now again, I repeat, in the Porsche I have a full blown K40 setup with all the goodies. This is a mid-sized SUV, not a race rocket, and not often driven too hard. I don't disagree with points above, but I also don't like the visibility of detectors laying low on the glass, in eyesight of every passer-by when parked. Here is what V-1 says about location: Advanced warnings (a warning in time to do some good) are more likely if one can avoid some problems caused by the low mounting position. Advance warnings require the greatest possibility of receiving a weak fragment of the beam while it is being used on traffic a good distance ahead. To maximize reception of weak signals, one must reduce blockage and interference. Mounting high on the windshield will position the detector to "see" through the windows of most vehicles ahead. Glass in vehicles ahead is a good thing for your detector to see; it can scatter reflections in your direction. Sometimes it develops a glow, or a bloom, when the beam strikes, giving yet another chance for advanced warning. Granted, Laser is going to be aimed to front plates and/or front headlights, and low position of detector is often advised. But if you are driving where there is a higher likelihood X, Ka and other bands of radar, and an occasional Laser in use, then you might consider higher position. That's just how I do it. Thanks for all the input. I'll post results in a month or two when this is over, hopefully.

Good luck! I look forward to hearing the outcome.

Here's the stats from the high mount position on the vehicle, with the LiDAR pointed at the plate (as normal), then the windshield: Laser Testing 1000 Feet Detector---->Front Plate---->Windshield Attowave *----> No Alert----> Alert Bel RX65---->No Alert----> Alert Cobra 9400----> No Alert----> Alert Cobra 9700----> No Alert----> Alert Cobra PT **----> No Alert----> Alert Escort 8500 X50----> No Alert----> Alert PNI SB 7500----> No Alert----> Alert PNI SB 7600----> No Alert----> Alert Valentine 1----> No Alert----> Alert Whistler Pro 58----> No Alert----> Alert Whistler Pro 73----> No Alert----> Alert Whistler 1793----> No Alert----> Alert Laser Testing 500 Feet Detector---->Front Plate---->Windshield Attowave *----> No Alert----> Alert Bel RX65---->No Alert----> Alert Cobra 9400----> No Alert----> Alert Cobra 9700----> No Alert----> Alert Cobra PT **----> No Alert----> Alert Escort 8500 X50----> No Alert----> Alert PNI SB 7500----> No Alert----> Alert PNI SB 7600----> No Alert----> Alert Valentine 1----> No Alert----> Alert Whistler Pro 58----> No Alert----> Alert Whistler Pro 73----> No Alert----> Alert Whistler 1793----> No Alert----> Alert As you can see - in tests from 500ft and 1000ft - a detector mounted high on the windshield detected the LiDAR 0% of the time - i.e. you just wasted your $$$, and gave yourself zero chance of detection and reaction. Rest of the write-up here: http://www.radarbusters.com/2004lase...ionarticle.cfm

Not a good test, though. All it proves is that the detectors did not detect laser pointed at the front plate. It does not answer two very important questions. 1. Would it have detected if the detector was lower at the windshield? Supposition and intuition don't count. Test them located at a lower location. 2. Would it have detected in a way to save you from a ticket? Two cars about 50 feet apart, point the laser at the front car license plate, and see if the second car detects it. I'm willing to bet the answer is no on both counts. 6-pack, beer of choice.

True, I slowed to that speed and then hit the mute button. I am making an assumption that he got a reading and that it was ~65. It was not 90+ I can tell you that!

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I'll have Boddingtons please sir! Well at least 3 cans for part 1!! They have re-done the tests using the latest crop of detectors, and concluded 'Only the dash mount Valentine One and Passport 9500i saw laser each time.' The key words being dash mount Write up here: http://www.speedzones.com/laser.html Mount 'em low folks, mount 'em low.........

Read through the whole thing. Interesting topic, and I enjoy intellectual mast.....err, I like thinking . True, detector location is critical, i.e., bumper mount versus windhield mount. But, they did not specify where they mounted on the windshield. The V1 and Passport were dash-mount, and the Blinder was bumper mount, but where were the others mounted? It's got to be a comparison between high windshield vs low windshield for a true test of our discussion. The same article also says " If you get a laser alert, you usually get a ticket." So, really, this discussion is moot, since it's ultimately about avoiding a ticket. Just to throw another kink in the debate, I wonder how a low mount, especially bumper mount, would detect a radar tag on another car? Would the car ahead block the radar signal since the detector is so low? After all, we depend on detecting the radar being used on the other car to avoid tickets. Otherwise, it's like laser: we detect the laser or radar pointed at our car, we've already been tagged. Here's a close call for me, just for fun: avoided ticket Anyway, beer is always good . Boddingtons, eh? Never tried it. I'll have to check it out

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You've never tried Boddingtons! That fact alone clearly discounts any other arguments you may be trying to make, on any topic what so ever... You can have the three that you'll have left after you've sent me my three