Is this the Porsche experience? (long story)

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster� In June of '99 I bought my '99 996 C2 Tip. A dream car, to be sure. In late 2000, with 27K miles, the head gasket failed on the engine, and it was replaced under warranty. I was assured this was an abberation and that I should have no concerns about the reliability of the engine. I use my car as a daily driver, much of my 17-20k miles a year is spent on relatively easy freeway commuting (I even get 40-50K miles on a set of tires!). I never track the car. Last month, with 83K miles on the second engine, the head gasket failed. The engine and car are out of warranty, but my concerns about the reliability of the car and this engine are naturally heightened. The service writer at my dealership thought I had a valid hope for some sort of goodwill gesture on Porsche's part, even though the warranty was expired and I now have a cumulative 111K miles on the car. He contacted the western states rep for PCNA and was told no, it's out of warranty. The service writer, still trying to help me out, told me to take my case directly to PCNA, whom I first called, then wrote a detailed letter asking to discuss the issue with them. After a couple weeks I received an unsigned four-sentance letter reiterating that the car was out of warranty and thanking me for bringing this to their attention. I was seeking reassurance as to the quality of the product, and some sort of attention to the effect of "we know you've had some really tough luck but we value your business and want to keep you as a customer, please accept our best wishes and this coffee mug/coupon for an oil change/tee shirt or some such". I then wrote one final letter to Peter Schwarzenbauer, CEO of PCNA, asking if this was the manner in which they treated all distressed customers. Another couple weeks passed and then I received a letter back, signed (by a woman who subsequently did not return my phone calls), once again reiterating that my warranty has expired and Porsche owes me no good will gesture. I eventually got another woman on the phone who thanked me for my input but (very professionally) explained I was out of warranty and that Porsche would not extend itself in my case. As I said earlier, I know I'm out of warranty. It would have been wonderful if PCNA had helped me somehow, but they didn't, so I've paid my $12.5K and bought another engine. But my concern, and my question to all you experienced board members, remains: does Porsche build good engines, and my case is just an extreme abberation? My mean time between failure rate for them is 55K miles� that hardly bodes well, and the lack of even a false expression of concern on PCNA's part has left me feeling cold. If I am able, I'll sell the car and try to recoup my investment in the new engine and have some cash for a down on some other marquee. The friends I tell my story to always respond with "ohh, I know someone with 200K miles on their car and it's still going strong". I don't expect a car to last forever� but am I wrong to think that a high-end car such as a Porsche, driven conservatively, maintained regularly, should get 100-150K miles of service from its engine? Thank you for taking the time to read my post, and I sincerely look forward to your responses! Doug

We all understand your plight. In the several years I have followed the 996 generation, head gasket failures have not been a chronic problem, say compared to RMS, flywheels (on earlier versions), wiring harness ('95 993) etc. Sounds like a machining issue, but on two different engines?

That does suck, Doug. And yes, Porsche customer commitment is not the best in the world. I've been helped in good ways before with the District Service Rep. Did you meet with them in person? I'd recommend it. The history of the car is one thing, but two engines with the same failure is inexcusable. The odds are just not there. Very strange. Is the dealer you went to the one who has serviced the car over its lifetime? Sometimes they can find a way to work through a deal to cover the labor if you cover the parts, etc. They make a potful on an engine replacement, both in parts and installation/labor. As for 100k miles strong? Volvo's, Mercedes Diesels maybe, and a few others. After 5 years or so with the 996, you are definitely on borrowed time, sad to say. Best of luck with your case.

I'm sorry to hear about a second engine having to be replaced on a well maintained car. Until recently my only experiences with Porsche were with 944's. First a 951 followed by a 944na I've owned for 10 years that is pushing 150,000 miles with no major problems. Both cars seem to have been virtually bullet proof. Last week I bought a 99 C4 cab with 45K on the odometer - a dream car for me as well. It is extremely well maintained and came out of the dealer PPI with meticulous service records since new and nothing more than a recommendation that I replace the windshield wiper blades. This board is a wealth of knowledge - I have been using it almost since its inception (and PorschePhiles before that) for my 944's. However, sometimes it is like logging on to WebMD with symptoms of a common cold and walking away convinced that death is surely imminent - to the point that i am second guessing my purchase. I, too, am interested in peoples� opinions of the 996 engines and long term reliability. Just out of curiosity - can't the head gasket be replaced as opposed to a new engine? Thanks to everyone for all of their help thus far.

Thank you for your fast responses! To answer some questions (all good ones)-- No, I was not able to speak with the district service rep, I was told he was out of town and only available via e-mail, and my service writer seemed to indicate that he (the district service rep) only wanted to deal with dealerships, and not with individual customers. Yes, the dealer I went to serviced it over its life (Rusnak in Pasadena, very reputable from every account I've heard). They didn't, however, offer any discount on their labor, or the parts. My first "real" job was at a car dealership, and I know that parts are marked up... but actually I don't really think it should be on them to help that way without PCNA being involved somehow. I laughed, and agree Jeff, that sometimes too much information can lead you to some crazy conclusions! But regarding the head gasket--I was told both by my dealer and an independent Porsche mechanic near me who's been in business for many years (used to take my '68 912 to him in the '80's) that rebuilding an engine as complex as the 996's requires so much specialized tooling and expertise that only Porsche in Germany should attempt it--he told me that any aftermarket rebuild would be a foolhardy expense. Eric, I've read countless numbers of your insightful posts and believe you're very well schooled in these cars--and if you say 100K is about the limit for them, then my worst fears are confirmed and I'll miss this car but not the unhappy anticipation of imminent demise. Anyone want to buy a '99 with a brand new engine and its 2 year warranty?

Doug...I would highly recommend you speak with the GM at Rusnak and demand an appointment with the DSM. It is the job of the DSM to soothe customer issues. They go to every dealer in their region every few weeks. They are there to resolve problems. Tell the GM you want face time with the DSM on the next visit. It's a no-brainer, especially since you're not ragging on the dealer for something they might have done wrong, it's just a factory/corporate issue. But the reality is that it is in the past. That's a tough nut. You might get something out of it, if not just to vent to the only rep you will see on this one.

I sympathize with you Doug but I'm not sure what your expectation is. Do you really think Porsche should warranty a car with 111k miles on it? Put yourself in their shoes. Given the way most of us drive, a Porsche with 111k miles is like a Mercedes with 500k. Jim

It's a good poiint you make Eric, and maybe if I'd been allowed to meet with the DSM before contacting Atlanta it might have helped in some way� I may ask to meet with him after all. Strange though that Atlanta didn't contact him and say "hey there's this squeaky wheel out in LA, go give him a coffee mug and a pat on the back". I feel a bit "down the river" now though at this point, and this brings me to JimB's good question--what did I expect? What I expected was an expression of concern and sympathy (fake or real) from PCNA, and for them to reassure me that I made a good purchase in '99, and another good one last month. As a business owner, it's a no-brainer to me to go ahead and try to assuage any customer who has concerns about the service I provide� but PCNA just doesn't seem to care enough about my business to extend themselves so far as to say "tough luck kid, but it's a helluva car, isn't it?". I'm left with the distinct impression that they don't need me as a customer (and maybe with all the Cayenne's flying out the doors, they actually don't). As to your assessment about how most of "us" drive--well maybe I should think myself less a man (or woman, sorry ladies!), but I drive so conservatively that I've gotten over 50K on a set of tires! The truth is I drive my Porsche for different reasons than most of you admittedly better drivers--I dearly love the way it handles, I feel so safe and in control on the road, but I don't often punch it. I've verified that the third digit works on my speedometer, but here in LA not only is there little opportunity to slalom around quickly, it's dangerous and I try to be a good citizen and not cut people off or offend them with selfish behavior. But, that's my point--since my miles have been by and large such easygoing ones, I would have expected greater than average longevity, not less. Anyway� what I'm learning from this thread (I've learned alot from so many threads here!) is that these are great cars, they perform like a rocket--and they last about as long . I'll count my blessings that I've only had to worry about engines, coolant bottles, and seatbelt lights (remember those?)� and since I'm not a track racer or a daredevil, I'll reluctantly exit my beautiful car, get something more (sigh) practical, maybe give OPEC a little less business, and keep my happy memories of all the good miles I had. That is, unless I get in it and drive it home again tonight, and fall in love all over again.....

First.......I'm sorry about your problem. It is easy for others to dismiss, if it does not happen to them. If you have an engine issue................for you it is a 100% problem, if you don't your problem rate is 0% I have two M96 motor Porsche's (and '00 986 and a '02 996). Knock on wood these cars (and their engines) have performed flawlessly for me. The M96 has certainly had past (porous block) and ongoing (RMS) issues, but I believe that it has proven itself (overall) to be a pretty reliable motor. Remember this engine has been in production for almost 10 years and other than RMS they do not seem to have any chronic weaknesses. I see and understand both sides of this issue. You have been a loyal customer that has experienced the same problem twice. However, Porsche can't warranty a product forever and your second motor is way past the cut-off date. Additionally, in our litigious society they could view any warranty concession as having implications for them beyond just your situation (one person brags on the internet and it becomes an expectation). I have certainly heard of some gasket problems with the motors but (from what I have read) these seem to be fairly rare. Unfortunately, I think it is just bad luck that you have experienced this problem twice.....

Doug, You certainly should expect to be heard. Like you said, that's just good business. Good luck. Jim

I'm sorry but did I read that you paid $12.5k for a new engine when you had a blown head gasket? Unless other damage occured due to liquid in the combustion chamber that sounds a little crazy...

Something is not right here. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get 40K-50K miles out of tires on a 996. If you're even getting half of that, your suspension is set up incorrectly. Secondly, why a new engine for a blown head gasket. Thirdly, why did he pay so much for an engine swap? Lastly, why would anyone expect a manufacturer to pay for anything when the car is out oif warranty? You tried and they said no. That's life in the real world. Sorry for your problems, but I don't believe we are getting the entire story here. Even the spare tire has a hard time lasting 50,000 miles just sitting in the trunk unused and you don't replace the engine because of a bad head gasket.

Ubermensch, the actual cost of the engine (I don't have my receipt in front of me) was actually about $8.2K, the coolant reservoir was also replaced (possibly oil had contaminated it) and there were a few other minor parts required. The rest of the cost was labor for r&r. I was told in 2000 (the first engine replacement) that a ruptured head gasket should not be repaired in the field--as I mentiioned earlier, rebuilding (even just the top half) of these engines was explained to me by both the dealer and an independent Porsche shop as a very technical process requiring precision tooling and expertise. I'm sure if Porsche had thought they could save money on a warranty engine repair by having it done in the field, they would have; that first engine was replaced at their expense and no doubt they felt they were doing it in the most cost-effective manner. Also, when I brought my car in last month with the same symptoms (check engine light, very poor performance, coolant evaporate in the oil fill tube), I was told that the worst-case scenario would be a cost of about $17-18K--in some cases, oil mixes with the coolant and travels through the hoses up to the radiators, requiring replacement of the entire cooling system (oil attacks rubber). I got off light! 1999, you may have a great deal of experience with these cars (judging by the number of posts you've made I hope so!), but in fact I actually have gotten very high mileage from a set of tires. With all due respect, just as there is a diversity of opinion in politics, religion, orientation, etc, there are many styles of driving. Rolling a Porsche down a Los Angeles freeway at 70-80mph evidently produces very little wear on the tires (I've had both Pirelli's and Michelin Sport Pilots). You may likely look down on me for driving in such a conservative manner, that's your priviledge, but the truth is I've never "tricked" the suspension in any way, and only had the dealer perform an ocassional alignment adjustment as all cars require. Maybe once or twice a month I might take a twisty canyon road for the joy of it, but I am not a well-trained racer and still did not take the car to the limits of its potential. Be careful making statements of what is possible and what is impossible . Many motorists drive their vehicles at least 20K miles a year, and yet they get over 50K miles on their spare tire! Again, as I stated earlier, my reason for owning this car is probably different from many of you--for me, the precise control and potential power make me feel very safe out there where there are so many unforseeable factors. Finally, in fact, yes, with the 996, you do replace the engine because of a bad head gasket--ask your dealer. I tried to be specific in my earlier posts that I was not expecting Porsche to "pay for anything when the car is out of warranty". In fact, a part of the story I didn't relate (I didn't think my credibility would be an issue, but this is the internet) was my experience of having to pay for a new coolant reservoir a couple years ago out of pocket--though it is acknowledged that the original design was flawed and was the cause of the failure, my car was out of warranty then also, and I dutifully ponied up the cash to replace their design flaw without lodging a complaint (I mention this as evidence of my non-litigious, reasonable nature--which the dealer also mentioned to the DSM). What did I expect? I would have expected them to reassure me, as a good customer who loves their product and always serviced it by the book at their dealer, that I have experienced an extraordinary string of bad luck; that they stand behind their product and feel badly that I've had such bad luck; that they want to keep me as a customer, and perhaps a vague (not a promise) assurance along the lines of "we think you'll get much better longevity from your third engine". Instead, I got curt and cursory dismissals without compassion or desire for my continued patronage. Yes, indeed, that IS life in the real world, and I'll take my business where I please. Now, look up at the topic title--I was asking if this is the experience others have had when dealing with PCNA on in or out of warranty issues and whether the longevity of the 996 engine is really so poor. 1999, I'll be happy to give you as much story into the history of this car as you wish, I suppose I was trying to keep things on the brief side so as not to bore the hell out of y'all with too much minutiae, but ask away and I'll explain my perspective as best I can--I'm surely getting more feedback and questioning here than I did from Atlanta! Thank you all for your thoughtful and considerate replies. Doug

Bob, is that really you starting up again with a new screen name???

Dello, I was thinking the same thing. Sounds like he had a good run, 115K is pretty damn good.

i'm innocent had my two engine failuires, and now i'm warrantied till 07... but as said, essentially every part on my car has been replaced that has known to fail, has.. so i figure i'm good for a couple more years before i sell it

Doug: The straighter you drive your car, the FASTER the rear tires will wear out. Unless you have eliminated ALL camber on the back wheels the inside of the tires will be down to the cords within 15,000 - 20,000 miles. They will explode shortly thereafter. It is possible to get considerably more miles with easy driving out of the front tires, but is not possible to get 50,000 miles out of the back ones. The straighter and easier you drive, the more the rear tires are riding on the inside half due to the negative camber. You may be forgetting that you are replacing the rear tires before the front ones.

Actually, you can get a ton of miles out of the Goodyear Eagle LS.....if you can retrofit them to your car.

1999--I believe what you say... but I have had a different experience somehow. I do know that both times, the tires were worn actually down to the steel cords, and that was only on the inside of the rear tires (I wanted to get full wear from them but that was really rolling the dice), so it sounds as though the camber was adjusted negatively as you say. I honestly don't have any other agenda here other than to see if others have had similar experiences with engine longevity and customer relations from PCNA� Nevertheless, it is your priviledge to dismiss me as a phony/crank/numbskull if you will--but then it is my priviledge to query all of you regarding your experiences! I've known for a long time from reading many other posts that I don't really take full advantage of the potential of my car as so many of you do� that is no doubt one reason I thought I'd get better than 55K MTBF out of my engines. Without starting a new thread (someone else already did)--how many miles are on your car, and aside from the seatbelt lights, coolant bottles and other minor issues, have any of you experienced failure of major components?

Acutally I don't think you are looking to see what others experienced but rather one of two things: 1) Has anybody had their engine replacement covered by PCNA at 100K miles like the situation you are so you have a "chip" in the game when you ask again nicely saying....."well you did it for so and so, why not me?" ...or.... 2) trying to find comfort in others misfortune by hoping there is some mass destruction of these cars when they hit a certain odometer reading. This will let you write it off and say "huh, I guess these cars really are crap" and just move on that you really didn't have a lemon. I really don't see what you have to gain from a thread like this other than gaining membership into a club that doesn't exist.

I have around 50,000 on my car and other than what you mentioned (seat belt buckle for air bag light and coolant tank) it has never been to the dealer for service and has never had any other problems. The car has been coast to coast, several times. I did replace an O2 sensor once, but it turned out it was not the probelm, it was a vacuum leak from a hose I pulled off. As part of spark plug replacement, I replaced a few of the "o" rings on the plastic sleeves and when I put a heavier clutch in, I replaced the release lever as per a TSB from Porsche. Only maintenance is changing the oil, changing the coolant every 2 years and bleeding the brakes. (Still have orginal brakes too) I will probably change tranny oil this winter. Oh yeah, EVOM installed a short shifter a few years ago.

Actually from reading this post the issue in question for the poster is not whether the engine fails at 100k miles but more like 50kmiles. The answer to this is unfortunately for you (and fortunately for the rest of us) is NO, this is not typical for the 996. There are many cars driving around with 50k+ miles with no engine failures. The Boxster engine also similar to the 996 has shown that it last longer than 50k miles. Sure there are examples of people having problems but by and large they are just a very small % of the vehicles. Truthfully your head gasket issues is the first I have read and in fact is dishearting in that a failed head gasket would result in a trashed engine. As for Porsche customer service....that seems to be all over the place. There are some great examples of good faith help from Porsche in solving some serious problems and there are other examples of the customer being let to die in the wind. The only commonality that seems to maybe exist is the customer's relationship with the dealer and the dealer's subsequent relationship with PCNA. Unfortunately it also appears that a weak link in either one of those relationships results in no help at all to the customer.

It's a perfect example of how Porsche has changed in recent years, and they are not alone ... look at BMW, look at Mercedes. The "family" and "we take care of our customers" vibe has largely evaporated whether you're under warranty or not. I'm sure the factory or dealership could've told Bob, "Look, the car has more than twice the mileage on it that the warranty covered, but how about you pay for your new engine and we'll cover the installation for you" and he would've been happy (happier) and probably walked (drove) away with a good feeling about his Porsche and his new engine. It's equally unfortunate that the cost-conscious engineering of the 996 (and 997 I assume) that's brought about the "if it's broken throw it away" philosophy regarding engines and gearboxes means anyone who owns these cars out of warranty is living with the prospect that a major repair expense lurks around the corner. I've often heard of (and read about here) 996 owners who say "I would never own a 996 out of warranty" and I think it's a shame. I'm not bashing the 996, I think it is a fine car, I've owned a 1999 C2 cab. But ultimately, after having an RMS leak at 30k miles and a gearbox failure (both handled under Porche's certified warranty), I went back to the 993, where even something as inevitable as worn-out valve guides due to high mileage means my 12-year-old engine can be as good as new for $5k or so, and my gearbox can always be rebuilt for $1000 or so. Thankfully, many 993s are running around happily with well over 100k miles on them with untouched engines. Look, 911s have always had their unique problem areas ... the 2.7's pulled studs out of the case, the 911SC broke headstuds, the 3.2 Carrera suffered from premature valve guide wear, the 964 had cylinder/case leaks, the 993 is plagued by secondary air injection passages getting clogged (not an issue no the 95, thankfully), but in none of those cases was the answer ever "buy a new engine." And, back in the day, it was not unheard of to buy a 10-year-old 911 that was 8 years out of warranty, discover a bad problem and have Porsche pick up a lot of the tab ... Charlie Kindel, one of the original Rennlist pioneers, bought a low-mileage 88 Carrera in 1998 and discovered worn valve guides ... Porsche and his dealer picked up 60 percent of the cost to rebuild his motor, and he was out $1700 or so. Those days, it seems, are long gone. And, as Porsche casts entire engine assemblies to get rid of that pesky "one person hand-builds every 993 engine" cost and time problem and its accountants point to the inflated bottom line by production savings inspired by Japanese manufacturing consultants with no corresponding reduction in list prices, it occurs to me to wonder why it is that my neighbor drives a rusted-out 1980 Toyota Corolla with 300k miles on it and it still has its original engine in it. Hmmm.

I was just telling my wife that I see the same problems on my 58k Porsche as I saw in her 100k Ford and my 200k Toyota...

i don't know why they don't change the porsche customer service number to [phone removed]... you'll get the same type of response, except you won't be on the phone for 2 minutes having to tell your story before they hang up on you..