C2 vs C4S driving differences

Hi, My name is Josh and I'm looking at buying a 911 (02+). I'm looking at both C2's and C4S's. I know it's hard to explain the way a car drives in writing, but if anyone with experience in both cars can attempt this, that would be great. Anything else that I should be aware of between these 2 models would be appreciated as well. Thanks and I look forward to joining the family! ...josh P.S. if you guys know of anyone in the Bay Area that's interested in a 2000 M5 (with pretty high miles), please feel free to ask any questions.

Josh, The C4S is wider and heavier and so it feels that way... it's very planted. Because of the AWD on the C4S it also has standard PSM (Porsche Stability Management - or Oh **** Switch) this is an option on C2 cars, something to think about. The C2 should feel more nimble - at least it did for me. If the only difference between the C2 and the C4S were the AWD system I would question "why even get an AWD car if you live in the Bay Area?" however the 996 C4S has much more going for it. It came standard with the turbo brakes, suspension and wide body (minus the turbo inlets and fixed wing), plus it came full leather and the awesome looking wrap around rear deflector. Good luck with your search. Rob

I live in the Bay Area and have an '02 C4S. I've been an Audi driver for years and wanted to stay with AWD. I also track the car 10-15x per year, so the S package was a requirement. I agree with Rob, if you were considering a C2 vs C4, I'd ask why you wanted AWD. The bigger brakes and stiffer suspension on the S make a huge difference if you like that kinda thing.

thanks guys. I too will track the car quite a bit with Unlimited Laps. I tracked my M3's quite often, but after getting rid of those for the M5, I didn't have a good track car. I also had an A4 that I loved, especially at the track. The widebody look and the upgraded suspension and brakes really make the C4S attractive to me. As far as the PSM on the C4S, I'm assuming that can be disabled, correct? thanks again guys and keep the input coming! ...josh

Oh no . . . here we go again. IMHO, the "S" package is definitely not a "requirement" for the track. In fact, if you are planning to track the car that much, I would strongly suggest that you consider the C2, because it should, to most people, feel more nimble. You do not "need" the components of the "S" package and, to the extent they are unnecessary, all they do is add weight. PSM can never be completely disabled. Even if you turn it off, it will come back on automatically IF you hit the brakes AND if you exceed a predetermined level of slip angle (7 degrees IIRC). This remains true on all cars equipped with PSM, whether AWD or not. The bottom line is that they are both very nice cars that are extremely capable on the street and at the track. Drive them both, and buy the particular car you like best.

I disagree, the bigger brakes, wider rear wheels and better suspension are great for the track.

Do they result in a lower track time? The brakes are not deficient on the C2s. As such, having bigger brakes merely adds weight, which is exactly the opposite of what you want. I mean, why bother with ceramics if unsprung weight is irrelevant? What about weight to power ratios? I don't have it for 996, but the difference between the 997 S at 9.24 and the 997 C4S is 9.58. It all matters. Stock suspension on both the C2 and the C4S blows for the track. As such, picking the lesser of two unacceptable solutions really isn't much of an advantage. Once you go aftermarket, there are tons of options for a C2 that are equal to or better than those available for the C4S. I know of guys who race 996 C2s. I don't know anyone who races a 996 C4S. Why is that if they are so superior?

Agreed, S may not be a requirement for the track. I made that assumption becasue I needed to upgrade the brakes and suspension on my Audi A4. Might not have needed to do that with a C2. As for PSM coming back on, that's news to me. I realize that ABS is always on, but I've spun my C4S on the track with PSM turned off, and it didn't come back on. At least the "PSM OFF" light was still on after the spin. I assume in the spin I exceeded most, if not all, slip angles.

The PSM "off" light may stay illuminated . . .but PSM will definitely kick back in if you trigger th algorithm. You can spin wtih PSM on, particularly if you hit the brakes after you are already starting to spin. So, in other words, you have PSM off, you start to spin, then you hit the brakes, PSM engages automatically, but you do not notice because it was too late anyway. The main time when you might notice it is if you are aggressively trailbraking. It is annoying because PSM will kick in even though you were "in control" of the car.

Yes it did. Copied from an other thread on the same subject. Nurburgring times "....here is a compilation of times someone here got off the web. I do not make any claims on it's veracity or accuracy, and the usual disclaimer as to driver, driver intent, weather conditions, yada, yada, yada. I'm just supplying it add some meat to the discussion, or add fuel to the fire. 7:06 --- BMW M3 GTR, 24hrs, test session, J�rg M�ller (2003) 7:19 --- Radical SR3 Turbo (2003), 7:20* -- Opel Astra DTM V8 Coupe, set-up for 24hrs race (sport auto 2003) *estimated 7:25 --- Alzen Motorsport Porsche 996 Turbo, 24hrs race, Uwe Alzen 7:28 --- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther R�hrl, Autobild July 2004 7:32.5 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (2001) 7:36 --- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther R�hrl (2002) 7:40 --- Mercedes McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004 7:42 --- Radical 1500 SR3 (2002) 7:43 --- TechArt GT Street (2001) 7:43.5 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine, 2002) 7:44 --- Pagani Zonda C12S (2003) 7:45 --- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 (2000) 7:46 --- Porsche 996 GT2 7:46 --- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (1999) 7:47 --- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (996) (2004) 7:49 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup 7:50 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (2003) 7:50 --- Blitz Supra, 750 PS, Herbert Sch�rg (1997) 7:50 --- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (1993) 7:50 --- Lamborghini Murcielago (2002) 7:52 --- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (1995) 7:52 --- Lamborghini Gallardo (2003) 7:52 --- Mercedes SLR McLaren (2004) 7:54 --- Porsche GT3 (996) (2003) 7:55 --- Caterham R500 Superlight (2002) 7:56 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (2004) 7:56 --- Porsche 996 Turbo 7:59 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Performance Chassis) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004) 8:02 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Sport PASM setting) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004) 8:03 --- Porsche 996 GT3 (1999) 8:04 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT 8:05 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello 8:05 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Normal PASM setting)(Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004) 8:06 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG 8:06 --- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn 8:07 --- Ferrari 550 Maranello 8:09 --- Honda NSX-R 8:09 --- Ferrari 360 Modena 8:09 --- Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?) 8:10 --- Chrysler Viper GTS, 411PS, UK-Spec, no ABS 8:10 --- Donkervoort D8 180R 8:12 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG 8:12 --- Porsche 993 Turbo 8:13 --- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS 8:14 --- Porsche 996 C4S 8:15 --- Porsche 911 Carrera 2 (997) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004) 8:16 --- AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II, 350 PS 8:17 --- Aston Martin Vanquish 8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2 8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (2002) 8:18 --- Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (2003) 8:18 --- Ferrari F355 8:20 --- Audi RS6 8:22 --- BMW E46 M3 8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS 8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT 8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4 8:25 --- Audi RS4 375 HP"

Oh for God's sake. Respond to the point I made in the post rather than trotting that out, which doesn't really say anything. Afterall, was the C2 99-01? Also, if you were right, why don't they make the GT3 and GT2 variants AWD? Jim B . .. oh Jim B . . . As I said before, none of this probably makes any difference to any of us on this board. Buy the one YOU like. But just don't try to say that the C4S is better, or worse yet, a necessity, for the track. It just isn't. Period.

I drove both before I bought my C2 and being in AZ (no local curvature) and not doing to much track driving decided on the lower priced C2. Good Luck!

I was responding to your post putting down the "S goodies" as only adding weight. It really does more then just that. It may have well been a 99 C2 but the 997 C2 is still below it, so I would be hard to believe the 3.6 C2 would be better then the 997 C2. My point is that, yes it does make a difference at the track. Is it necessity? No of course not. With some dollars the C2 and C4 can be upgraded to the same level as the stock c4s or even better, its just the stock C4S is a nice setup for the track right out of the box with out having to upgrade it.

That is just so wrong! In the hands of an experienced driver, stock, straight out of the box, I would bet you that around most tracks here in the states, a C2 will turn a faster time than a C4S . . . period. Stop trying to act like the C4S enjoys a significant advantage for track performance. It just doesn't. You never responded to my points. If you were right about the AWD platform, then why doesn't the GT3 or GT2 have it? If it were so much superior for the track for the non GT variations, then why not also for the GT variations? How many track days do you have? Honestly and do not exagerate. Again, though, this is like arguing about angels on the head of a pin. In stock form, most of us here will not be affected too much either way with C2 or C4S.

Again I don't agree, depends on the track and conditions. AWD drive is much easier to drive. C2 requires more smothness where AWD can correct for times when you arn't smooth. You also don't drive AWD the same as a C2, you get on the throtle sooner while corning which I have used many times to catch up to C2s because of that advantage. I don't even have to mention the grip you have in the wet, it's just amazing and quite honestly the track days I have been in during the wet none of the C2s kept pace, some did try but once they felt the *** start to slide the slowed right down. Coming out of a corner I could hit the gas like an idiot see the PSM light come on and watch as I pulled hard on the C2 is my mirror. I mean really hard like a Turbo does to a NA. GT3 and GT2 classes don't allow AWD. Period. It is an unfair advantage for a few reasons not that I can remeber them but I believe that tire wear was one of them. I honestly have not that many track days. I started last June. I have 18 days to date with another 8 days planned from today to Sept. I started in Green and was moved up the second day to yellow and would have skipped yellow all together had I known how to heel and toe. After learning heel and toe I moved up to white on Day 7 where I still remain. I agree arguing the same thing over and over again is pointless. I didn't buy a C4S for the track. I bought it for a daily driver, including winter, for the widebody, red reflector, front bumber, rear bumper and for the saftly and peace of mind AWD bring to the table. Tracking it is a bonus.

Where are you located?

I would be willing to eat my tie if, after you get more track days under your belt, you will not realize that what you are saying is just not correct. It just isn't. Sorry, and it is not about me needing to be correct. I can agree with you that for DD, you could be happy in both, but the C4S is just not significantly better for the track. Here, see what other track rats have to say: https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/365897-c2-vs-c4s-for-track-use.html

The reason AWD's are not raced is not because they dont have an advantage....its because alot of rules BAN AWD cars....PERIOD. I do remember the Audi AWD cars BEFORE the AWD ban...they changed the rules because of it.

Stock 996 C2 to Stock 996 C4S . . . you honestly think that the C4S has the advantage? Really? Also, the C4Ss are not banned in Porsche club racing, NASA racing, or SCCA racing. Why do guys pick C2s over C4Ss then?

ok...here it is....According to the ruling bodies of the the ACO and ALMS...where Porsche sells race cars to compete in. You must make a car with the engine/drivetrain combo that will race. So for homologation rules they must make a GT3. It has NOTHING to do with the performance issues....

I didn't say the C4S is better for the track. Back to my original post. the bigger brakes, wider rear wheels and better suspension are great for the track. Doesn't matter if they are on a C2 or C4 they still are great for the track! Both are great for the track and both are different. All depends on your driving style and preference

OK, so let me get this straight, you are claiming that the stock C4S is significantly better for the track than the stock C2, right?

if you are looking for lower track times then you are on the brakes LESS so the need for bigger brakes are not as essential because the main focus is keeping momentum. if you are talking about racing then bigger brakes will help dissipate heat as you dive bomb every corner. not the fastedst way around the track but will gain position if you are wheel to wheel.

Come on TD "significantly" that can be interpeted many ways. Is the 997 C2 significantly better the 996 C2

Um maybe Porsche doesnt make motorsport parts for the AWD systems? Because they officially dont sell a AWD race car....just like they dont make Boxster/Cayman motorsport parts, but many will tell you a stock Cayman S is faster around a track than a stock C2....

You are not answering the question at hand: Stock 996 C2 vs. Stock 996 C4S. Which is preferable for track use? Which will turn shorter average lap times with the same experienced driver?

I think your right there. Most of the time I think I am dive bombing every corner to catch up to the guy in front of me. So I can pass. I guess it probably is a slower lap time but at least I am passing people

No look, you guys were saying that the C4S was an advantage on the track. I think the C4S is tremendous, and an excellent choice for a dual use car. No disagreement there. In fact, it is probably the most beautiful 996 variant, and very practical as a DD. But when I hear people say it is "better" for the track, it makes me cringe. It may be better on rainy days (I will give you that), but under normal TRACK conditions, the C2 is an advantage, and the "upgrades" offered by the C4S are a disadvantage.

All that matters is that you are having fun. That's it. AWD v. RWD is irrelevant. The fact that we can even have this debate is proof that we are all blessed beyond most of our own realization.

it all comes down to pwer to weight ratio on the track (let's assume dry track). the c2 is close to 300 lbs LIGHTER than the c4s. the c2 having a 9:1 WT/HP ratio and the 10:1 ratio. the c2 will be quicker in acceleration and will handle better in the corners. a lighter car is also easier on brakes.

I NEVER said that...I just said that the blanket statement of a C2 is better than a C4 is not really true and your "Then why dont they race them" comment is a bit skewed....Like I said...I would bet under the same experienced driver a Cayman S is faster than a C2...so why dont they race a Cayman S? Its not because of performance. Different drivers prefer different things. Hans Stuck who has driven and raced just about EVERY modern Porsche prefers the AWD car...He has more track time than probably ANYONE on this board...so is he wrong? I drove both cars and i liked the AWD...am I a track junky? No, and if I was, getting rid of weight would probably be more beneficial to more traction...but it would depend on the track and the driver.

Sure you implied it. The issue at hand was whether a stock C4S is better FOR TRACK USE than a stock C2. There were several posts that stated, explicitly or implicitly, that the "upgrades" for the C4S made it a better car for the track than the C2. I said that, under normal conditions (no rain or snow), the "upgrades" of the stock C4S would actually be a disadvantage on the track vis-a-vis the stock C2. Agree or disagree? That has been the sole subject I have addressed in this thread. Nobody wants an AWD GT3 or GT2. Why do you think that is? Now, I have always been talking about stock cars. IF you could get an AWD car that is as light as a RWD and as mechanically reliable, and you could tune it so that it doesn't push like a pig, then, well, SURE it might be better. But that was never the question at issue in this thread.

well wouldn't say bigger brakes allow u to brake latter and harder, wider rear to provide more grip and awd to get on the gas earlier. Don't those make up for the weight. If those don't help I quite honestly don't know how I after coming out of a corner, I can be closing the gap on a C2 thats in front of me.

psst. It is probably more the driver than the car, particularly in the more novice run groups. Due to the importance of unsprung weight, you want to run the lightest brakes you can without causing you problems. The C2 brakes are more than adequate. Since they are lighter, they are better.

It isn't possible, but if it were. +1 for me on a 997 GT3 and can I also have get that in a Cab while your at it. I would want it for the looks, the open top and the engine.

Stepping slowly away from the bar . . . but not before I have grabbed my drink . . .

I gotta jump back in on this one. "Better for the track" means different things to different people. I agree with TD, the lighter C2s will probably turn lower lap times than the C4S, no data to support this, just my gut feeling. However, for the casual DE guy, I think the C4S is a better choice as it's more forgiving. AWD is way more forgiving in the corners, and you'll be hard pressed to burn up those huge brakes. If you get the track bug and get into club racing, then you may end up with a GT3. So then you could argue that you learned to drive in an AWD car so you have some re-learning to do,, and that's probably true too. That being said, I know guys who started out with a C2 or a GT3 as thier first track car had a blast. I think it's a matter of persona preference.

you see not ever body would buy a GT3 for the track. In fact If I had a new one, it probably wouldn't see the track. I would be to afraid that I'd crack it up. Well maybe if I were rich but that ain't the case.

I think the C4S is an outstanding car. I can certainly understand why some prefer it over the C2, even if they want to also use it for the track. I just jump into the argument when I hear people suggesting that the "upgrades" of the stock C4S are an advantage on the track. They just are not, of course unless it is raining. Both the C2 and the C4S are ridiculously easy for noobies to drive on the track. They are extraordinarily forgiving, and they hide all manner of driver sin, so I don't think any noobies should feel like they "need" a C4S for the track to make it even easier for them. Buy what you want. If you want to track more than drive on the road, many, but not all, prefer C2.

the wider rear stance of the the c4s will give marginally better grip but at the same it may increase understeer. not so good if you are already understeering heavily. 300 lbs is A LOT of weight to overcome. i would agree that a wider stance would be beneficial but both front and back and at gt3RSR track widths not the the 20mm wider rear track of the c4s. btw, the c2 can fit some big meats under the fender. 9.5x12 is very doable and some have been able to fit a 10" up front. re: closing the gap on a C2.... different drivers. the other driver must not have carried as much momentum though the corner as you.

i don't buy that the c4s i more forgiving. you can make the c2 understeer as much as the c4s if you want "easier to drive" AWD is VERY forging when you throw 200 more HP and try to get all that power down to the wheels, i.e. TT.

Thread drift...poor guy just wanted some info and got everyone into a tizzy (is that a real word?)

Well, actually, Rob (Riad) answered his question accurately, and in the very first post. Spot on. Everything else after that is entertainment (mixed with information). I would view it as a bonus.

haha, i just feel bad that on my 2nd post ever here, i started such a sh*tstorm ;-) ...josh

This is exactly what Porsche attempted to and nearly achieved! I'm not advocating AWD unless you really want it for DD security, it just isn't really that negative a feature on the 911 some believe it to be.

Geez, just get a Ferrari and fugetabodit.

Don't feel bad. You asked a fair question, and I am nearly 100% certain that most of the guys here are being partially serious and partially joking around. I doubt that any hurty feelys were injured in this thread. Out of all seriousness. Look at the different cars, and buy the one that excites you the most AND that passes a PPI very well. The thing about Porsches is that there is an incredible amount of personalization possible, so each car can be special in its own way. Good luck. The hunt is half the fun.

This is the crux of it all, and you are 100% correct. I am coming from a 911SC that I tracked into a '99 C2, the only complaint from the older 911 crowd about 996s is that they are so good that it takes some of the excitement out of the game. (Unless you get them really cooking, which is not relevant to this hypothetical "newbie" discussion). All cars w/ multi-link rear suspensions like the 996 will "self-correct" at the limits of adhesion even w/o traction control in stock form. They are safe to drive fast beyond anything that could have been imagined in a street car even 10 years ago. You are also correct about lighter=better at the track, pretty much as a rule. Lighter definitely = more fun for a good driver. I can see how an AWD car would be theoretically even safer for an incompetent or inexperienced driver, but here again, the regular 996 is super-safe. I plan on putting my C2 on a weight-loss program, no plans for bigger brakes. I have limited track time, but I'm going to try to remedy that and I definitely have the desire to go fast. The best way to improve performance on any vehicle is to lose weight; you improve acceleration, braking and handling together and sometimes it's even free.

[QUOTE=jkarp]haha, i just feel bad that on my 2nd post ever here, i started such a sh*tstorm ;-) Next time ask what kind of oil to use in your new P-car.......

+1

Since Palting hasn't reponded - I dug up a couple threads where he does. He and TD have had some interesting discussions on this subject ( which comes up every few months or so ) https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ight=C4S+Track https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ight=C4S+Track https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ight=C4S+Track

Ya just had to do that, didn't ya?

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targa

Fixed that for you. j/k � Benjamin Choi 2007

[QUOTE=PJorgen] Did someone say OIL?