Safe to buy a PDE driven 996? Plz help

Hi ppl, I was wondering if I can get some feedback from owners on this board. My local dealer is selling couple of PDE driven cars, AKA track cars (02 coupe, speed yellow, lots of options). Were these cars heavily abused? The car still has 100K miles warranty. JACK

The cars in my estimation have been driven at speed, but not abused since yellow would be an instructers vehicle. 100k warranty on a PCNA referb sounds pretty good to me if the price were right.

Other than regular track use by many different drivers? I imagine they were well maintained. How many miles? Personaly... I would not want one.

Thx guys, The car has about 8000 miles. The options of the car are as follows... Black Floormats, Spoiler, PSE, 6cd, premium wheels, Sport Chassis, and PSM The dealer wants around 63K for the car.....the only thing I am worried about is that if something breaks, the dealer might not warranty the car (eg. clutch), since they have proof that the cars were driven hard from before. Any more inputs would be appreciated. JACK

with dealers offering upto 10K off msrp for new ones, I would search for better deal

I wouldn't touch one of those cars with a 10 foot pole. You know they are pushed very hard--probably often abused--for many hours a day.

I would never buy one of these cars, they are test cars for amateur drivers on a track. They are always driven hard and despite the maintenance, 8000 track miles probably translates to 50,000 street miles. A question, what is the condition of most loaners at dealerships? Pretty bad. Just imagine if you were able to push a car to the limit with no backlash or fear of repair or hurting the car, wouldn't you take advantage? I know I would. -Lou

That's an understatement. You could get a new one with 0 miles for that price. Don't believe for one second that options are worth a cent on used cars. Wholesale on that car is $56,825, and that is for a "regular" car, a track car would command much less. Just my thoughts, good luck. -Lou

Yellow PDE cars are the least abused of the bunch, they are the instructor cars, and although driven hard, only professionals drive them so they should be in better shape than the red PDE cars. However, you can still get a better deal than that these days!

Thx guys, I think I will pass on this one ......just out of curiousity, why are all these PDE cars yellow? JACK

Not all are yellow, only the instructor ones (about 7-10 cars) the rest, the student cars, are red

63K is a bit much, but @ 60 would be good. I had the good fortune to drive one of the SY (instructor) cars - and it was so well sorted out (the suspension had been tweaked to a fare the well....) that I nearly offered to buy it on the spot.... J

I live about 15 minutes away from the PDE. I have spoken with some local service techs who service the cars. They've told me that they have changed wheel bearings at 10k miles. In other words, these cars are being flogged mercilessly. I wouldn't buy one unless the deal was incredible and included a massive warranty. And even then, I would think twice. Too many nice ones out there to take any sort of risk.

I wouldn't buy on either, but let's deal in facts. At the PDE you are limited to 6000RPM in 3rd and 4th gear (masters program, less in the regular class), by the instructors. Further, most people who do the PDE are not capable of reaching those limits on the track, the speeds are too high for them. The big issue with the cars would then be clutch, rotors and wheel bearings and maybe the transmission. The engines are built to take the speeds at which they are driven. Now why wouldn't I buy one...there are too many other good deals out there...and to buy one of these cars you would need to get it at around $45K for it to make sense. A dealer looking for $63K for one of these cars is ...well being a dealer, and doing his best to earn the reputation they often get (and deserve).

but Colm may have driven it!!!! but even so, he wasnt the only one, it's like buying a taxi... massive risk and no upside..... do not do it

Since this is my first post I feel a "Hello" to every one is approriate. Instead continuing my lurking ways, I felt compelled to repond to this topic which has been discussed on prior occasions on Rennlist. A few months ago a number of PDE 996s appeared on e-bay for sale. I considered the purchase of a Guards Red 02' with 8,000 miles. However, based upon the comments posted here I was extremely concerned about whether to buy the car. In addition, the car was out of state, and as a result, I couldn't personally inspect the car. Consequently, I passed. Amazingly, less than a week later a 02' Guards Red 996 with 5,011 miles appeared for sale at Guadin Jaguar-Porsche in Las Vegas. The car had the following options....Black Floormats, PSE, 6cd, Carrera Sport Wheels, Sport Chassis, and PSM. So I took a trip to the dealership with a couple of other 996 owners (one is Bobby H who posts here from time to time) to inspect the car. Keep in mind, between Bobby H, my other 996 buddy and myself, we have owned assorted P-cars over the years along with various examples of american iron...Vettes, Z06s, ZR1s and Vipers. Consequently, we felt fairly confident in giving the car a decent examination. To my surprise, the car was in like new condition. Apparently, PNA prior to releasing the PDE cars for sale replaced the windshield, fluids, tires, rotors, pads ect. After recieving the car the dealer performed a complete inspection. During the test drive the car was tight and drove no different than my buddies 03' 996 except for the rumble of the PPE. The only problem was the 6 disc change which was replaced on the spot. After some negoiations, I decided to pull the trigger and bought the 996 for $59,500. This included the extended warranty from Porsche and what really cinched the deal is that IMO they gave me top dollar for my trade-in. Now, I have owned the 996 for a little over 2 months of trouble free miles. Would I purchase a PDE 996 again? In a heart beat on one condition. Only if I am able to personally inspect the car and from a local dealer that I trust. In fact, I have made my intentions known with my sale person that I want to be contacted immediately when the 997 PDE cars are available for sale in a few years. Maybe, I was lucky. I don't know. I guess time will tell. But I seriously doubt the fact that my car was used in the PDE will have a affect on value when it comes time for trade-in. Also, I have communicated with another PDE car buyer and his experience is similar to mine. I just wanted to share my actual experience with a PDE car.

I too bought one and as TC3 states, they replaced all of the high wear items such as rotors, brakes, new tires adn they even removed the 3M cover that protected the bumper etc. There was not a rock chip or scratch anywhere on it. Mine looks and drives like brand new and I got it for $57K with 7.5k miles. Since then I have put almost 5K of trouble free miles on it including a 3-day weekend at Watkins Glen. Would I do it again? Without a doubt. I will say the only trouble I have with the car is I love to go to the track and this car is too fast. I know that may sound stupid but I just don't want to go 140 mph in a car that I cannot afford to fix. I'll have to look for my lap times but I know on Sunday morning when I got out of the car my knees were weak and I was a bit nervous. I did not run anymore that day. To that end I went in with a friend and bought a 993 track car in which I will only have 16k (plus the X5 tow vehicle I bought yesterday). My friend wrecked his car at Watkins Glen and it really made me think more than usual. All that being said, see my ad in the classifieds. I am selling my PDE and basically I just want to get my payoff ($54K and change).

I did PDE in Atlanta, and used a yellow car, although they are notionally instructors cars. The cars are not run in according to recommendations, I asked the instructors and they said running in comprised half a day of hot laps when new. Nothing further to add, except to agree why buy one unless it is much cheaper than a non PDE car. Based on my experience the cars are abused pretty hard, although arguably they are built for that purpose.

Colm - not sure where you got your "facts" from but there most definitely is no limit on rev's. Took my car to high 6000's rpm frequently yesterday - in both 3rd and 4th....I saw 105 mph down the back straight at Barber Motorsports. The car had ~3500 miles and was faultless. Several instructors, remarked that the "track cars" were exceptionally well looked after, and they'd have no issue with purchasing them. Also recognise that the PDE cars have different roles. The skid pad cars - 911 tiptronics - would be items of which to steer clear. The combination of persistent water and frequent stalling not a great mixture....

Bill, The SY car under discussion was used at ATL & Sebring - not at Barber. The rpm's were held down a bit more at those venues.... except maybe on the long straight @ Sebring (not that I ever saw that happen :-)...... Also, some (not all) of the PDE cars in 2001 had the "oil kit" installed.... but those were all sold off. J

Thanks Jeff - that helps.

very informative, thanks. At the righ price they would be very temping!

I'm not a Porsche racer, but 8,000 track miles seems like a heck of a lot. When I track a car, the typical race is no more than 40 miles, and practice and qualifying are no more than that. This car has seen the equivalent of 100 race events. It should be sold a fraction of the offered quote. By the way, is the 6000 rpm rev limit electronically set or is it a matter of self-restraint? If it's the latter, it's probably an invalid assumption that the car has been spared in any way. AS

Bill, When I did the Master's Program at the Barber track in March we were limited on the final afternoon to 6000 RPMs, and you might have got "grace" up to about 6500RPM, but hitting the rev limiter was going to get you black flagged. Those are my facts! Point being the engines are not abused! It would seem from your post that this limit has been relaxed. Maybe someone on the board can ask about the change when they next do the event, I'm curious.

I would say think of it like this. How do you treat rental cars when you get them? The cars were probably well car for by staff but that's about it.

it was posted: The people jumping ship have done as much, if not more damage than those who have been making the decisions. Does a half full stadium/arena look as good as a completely full stadium/arena to a recruit? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aren't you really comparing apples to oranges? We all know the potential abuse to a rental car. However, there is one major difference. PDE cars never leave the lot. They are always used under the supervision instructor and are well maintained. Big difference IMO. Maybe I was lucky. However, I would be willing to compare my 02' 996 with any other 02' 996 of similar mileage (a little over 6000 miles now) and I truely doubt any one could tell the difference including exterior finish, interior, ride, suspension, interior noise, the way it tracks, the clutch ect. Based upon my car buying habits, I will in all liklihood only keep the car for 2 years. However, I feel the 6 year 100,000 Porsche factory warranty should be a big plus on the resale.

Talk about seating the rings in 500 miles! I wonder if the dealers drain the syncro teeth out of the gearbox's before putting these PDE cars on the lot?

I thought the factory broke in every engine before the car left the factory? I doubt PDE cars are mistreated anymore than the dealer's demo cars. I have heard horror stories about the way these cars are treated at the various shipping points too. And finally, it seems to me that just about everyone here regularly tracks their car so. . .

The track cars @ Barber when driven, get about 150 mi per 2 day class under fairly controled conditions, plus a few hot laps thrown in for good measure. In 04 there will be some Midnight Blue 03 instructors cars with Rear Spoiler Carrera for sale just have to locate them. Much prefer one of these over a new car on the lot thats been "test driven" ignoring any proper heat cycling. When you purchase a new P car and theres more than 20 mi on the clock, how has been driven?

This is what I was told at the Zuffenhausen factory last summer: Those 20-30 miles have been driven by a Porsche "master mechanic" on the sreets of Stuttgart. Porsche is the only manufacturer to be allowed to road test their cars on city streets. As for breaking in the engine at the factory, the engines are run at the factory right after completion, for about 30 minutes, then one is chosen randomly (about every 30th one) completely disassembled, checked, and re-assembled. There is no way to know if your engine was one of those, as they make sure not to mark them in any way. Since the first few running minutes of an engine's life are the most important, you could consider the engine "broken in" at the factory. HTH

I believe it to be a fact that rental cars tend to be more reliable compared to the "average" car out there. This is due to better maintenance. Aside from that point, I would personally not worry about buying one of these cars. The warranty is there, what's the problem? These cars (one can assume with a descent level of certainty) haven't seen the day to day "abuse" of being driven in stop and go traffic, high number of cold starts, pot holes, bad gas etc. There are many Porsches out there with upwards of 200k miles that run reliably which have also seen the track. I do however agree that 8k track miles is a heck of a lot, I do not agree that this is a major factor that would decrease reliability. Finally, also note that the wearout items have been replaced. Ahmet