PSM - How important do you think it is?

How important do you think it is to get the PSM option on C2 996s?

Stunning piece of technology. I didn't have it on my 'must have' list when I bought my car, but the car I chose had it. Then I went to a driving school and deliberately pushed the car beyond its limits on the skid pad with and without and was amazed. I also have run an autocross in the rain, and tried it with and without PSM. It's like the hand of god waiting to catch you when things go to hell. While I don't use it for autocrossing, I am very very happy to have it, and would consider it a 'must have' for any future purchase.

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Indeed. I ran with it on at my last track day just to see how far I could go till it kicked on. The car was sideways before it "fixed" the situation. Quite impressive as most other stability / control aids kick on much, much earlier. PS, I usually drive with it in the "off" position. C.

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I would never turn it off for street driving. Ever. I turn it off for autocrosses. If I ever get to a big track, I'll keep it on, as I'm more concerned about health and property preservation than 10ths of seconds... Interesting side note, the Porsche Driving Experience cars all have it, and have disabled the ability to disable it. So I heard from someone who took the course, not from personal experience.

+1+1. I turned it off while in very slippery snowy conditions because I couldn't generate a power slide w/ it on. Yep, I was able to power slide OK w/ it off, all the way across my neighbor's yard. Thank GOD there wasn't a tree planted in the middle of it. Lesson learned for this P-car driver.

Certainly better to have it than not to. You can always turn it off in circumstances where you don't think you'll need it. Agree with the comments above - system is far less intrusive than others I've experienced. I also leave it on when I'm on track, since as Irksome said, I like having that safety net in exchange for some tenths on track. BTW, I can't think of a reason to turn it off while driving around town.

I didn't think much of it until I bought a c4 that came with it. Now, I would never consider getting another 911 without PSM.

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Irk, Question for you. When autocrossing with it off, does the PSM still act as a LSD to direct power to the wheel with traction? Or do you just get a lot of spinning from the inside tire and little power to the outside. I am assuming you don't have a mechanical LSD. Thanks! Andy

If PSM is off, it does literally NOTHING unless you use the brakes. It watches all, but laughs at you until you ask for help (it considers using the brakes a cry for help). I do not have LSD. I also do not have enough power to lose rear wheel traction unless I'm in off-camber situations or big sweepers. And I've never noticed unequal spinning, the few times I've actually got my wheels spinning. I HAVE lost traction on a wheel in street driving, like when turning and encountering sand or water. In that case, with PSM on, it immediately responds, and it never lasts long enough for me to determine if I had a single wheel spinning like mad. It is super fast, and will make corrections at the throttle and all 4 brakes independently. My favorite was in autocrossing in the rain, I started losing it (rotating 4-wheel drift that was going to be a spin), and the damned thing applied the inside rear brake and like a slingshot bullet I was through the corner.

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That's funny.

I think the manual says when PSM is off it will remain off unless turned back on or the antilock in the braking system is invoked. If Jasper is around.. he has a story about a guy ( me ) whom he turned off the PSM in the wet and spun his car. Bent a rim and some other things. These cars will snap around with PSM off very quickly on a rookie if your are not careful. Geoff And I am laughing about it all now...

If I lived in So Cal I wouldn't get it. But around these parts (it comes standard on the C4 and C4s anyway) it really makes a huge difference. I did some tests with about 1" of snow in a large parking lot... on and I could barely get the rear end to give out, off and I could do 360's.

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This isn't my experience...I've found that the PSM kicks in WAY faster than the VDC (same thing) on my Infiniti. I can get the back end of the FX out several feet before it kicks in. On the 996, I'll bet it doesn't go six inches before it reacts HEAVILY. This is how mine seems to work as well. Is the system any different between the four-wheel and two-wheel drive cars?

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Odd, my G35 stability control would kick in waaaay earlier than Please Save Me.

Is the PSM similar to the DSC on the BMWs? I guess I still have to experience the "PSM" as I am still not pushing it in turns and still do not really have the feel of "what the limits are"

I have it on my 996, don't have it on my 986. I would not call it a "must have" but it is a nice safety blanket in very inclement weather. As a side note I find it amusing how many people are afraid to turn it off or drive on the street or track without it. I often turn it off on my 996. These cars demand respect, but they are certainly in no way dangerous without PSM.

Okay - Would you consider PSM a "must have" if you have no intention of ever driving the 996 in any amount of snow? Mine will be going into storage when the first snowfall hits. I do plan to drive it in the rain but I don't need it to get to work or anything, so if there's even a half-inch of snow I'm not going to drive it. The reason I ask is that I'm looking at buying a 996 C2 which does not have PSM, but the price is amazing. Honestly, my first choice was a C4, and I wasn't even really considering a C2, but then I found an amazing deal on a 2003 C2 and thought "Hey, with the exception of the TT every car I've ever owned has been RWD."

PSM is MUCH less intrusive than DSC or ASC by BMW. I've driven both at the Performance Center and I am really impressed with PSM. It would be a deal breaker for me, as ASC & DSC have saved my butt WAY too many times in normal driving (heavy rain, wet leaves, black ice, sand..)

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I would not consider it a "must have" in that situation. Keep in mind Porsche chose not to even offer PSM on the much more powerful 996 GT3.

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Must be a reason they added it on the 997 GT3s

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My guess.....lawyers. Do you think it's a "must have" Robin?

After living with my daily beater (c4) for the past 3 years. I would have say it is a "must" feature for the 911 cars, at least for me. The Porsche PSM is one of the best handling help aid I have ever experienced in any car that I have driven. The BMW and ferrari's traction control on the F360 is way too retarded (pun intended) compare to the Porsche's PSM system. Not sure about the new F430 system. I do tend to push my cars fairly hard, if it wasn't the occasional PSM icon flashes I would assume it was "me" that was skillful. At no time did I ever felt it was the PSM doing it's work, it is very fast reacting and very unintrusive system. Again, at least for me it would be a must feature that I would want on all of my 911s.

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I believe the PSM was not compatible with the LSD settings in the 996 GT3.

The redneck side of me says PSM is actually an acronym for Phenomenally Stupid Move! If you�re recklessly enough or untalented enough to get a car as capable as a 996 out of sorts on a dry street the system should save your *** and then take away your keys. Snow is a different story. The practical side of me says it�s an amazing system that may save your life or the life of someone else so get it if you can. The racer side of me says learn to drive your car on the track so you know your car's limits and your own limits. Knowing how to get yourself out of trouble when things go bad is a great skill to have no matter what you're driving. And it's fun! Jim

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Jim, I agree with everything you said about the track and learning the behavior and limitation of the car. Here is what I see as the real value of the PSM, on the track the road surface condition is fairly predictable and consistent. On public roads the road condition changes all the time, sometimes drivers can get caught off guard. That's where the PSM can be a big help in life saving.

I did order PSM with my 01 996. I've never had it go on when on public roads, however, I do drive carefully. On the track is another story. I have tracked the car extensively and it frequently came on in my novice years and occasionally as I became more experienced. The only time I have ever turned it off was during skid schools. I consider it as "insurance".

I don't have it. I rationalize that no early "real" 911 had it, so I am in good company! I do wish I had it, if for nothing more than insurance in case I do something stupid!

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As always, I agree with Robin. Well except for the 993 thing but we don't want to go there now.

So the consensus seems to be that PSM is a great feature to have and pretty much everyone agrees that given the choice they would prefer to have it. A smaller percentage consider it a deal breaker. Given that: I'm not inclined to excessively spirited driving on public roads, I won't be driving it in the winter at all I've driven sports car my whole life I've taken advanced driving courses I intend to take more in the Porsche PSM probably shouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Thanks, as always, for all of the awesome input guys. I love this forum (just moved up to "addict" last night )

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Porsche made PSM work with the LSD on the 40th anniversary models, so it can be done.

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+1 I'm thankful that I grew up learning to drive RWD cars with no ABS, PSM, TC, etc. and that I know what to do if I get in trouble. Plus, as you stated, it is fun making your own corrections. Will the next generation of drivers gain that experience? I suppose I'm glad that the idiot in the next lane (with the cell phone in one hand and a Big Mac in the other) has it on his or her car.

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I'm glad I learned to drive on primitive RWD beasts like the Datsun 240Z and the old Celicas and Supras. They had excellent chassis dynamics for their time, but compared to today - they were downright dangerous. The first generation Zs cornered at around .8 (if you replaced the crappy 175R14 stock all-season tires) and took around 150ft to stop from 60mph. Rear drums baby - rear drums. Heh. The Z also lost all stability above 90mph because of the nose design. ALWAYS far more a concern for me then anything I'm doing. I perpetually drive in a state of near-paranoid suspicion that every driver around me is about to do something incredibly stupid that will put my life in danger. It's depressing how often I'm right. /

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I agree. My Audi A6 had the ABS control module go and I didn't fix it for about 8 months. My mechanic said, "Why fix it, you just don't have ABS, how did you drive before ABS". I never had a problem without it. But, it certainly got me thinking. Although I did get it fixed this January shortly before a long ride from near NYC to Jay Peak, VT. Once I hit the VT border on Friday afternoon, I never saw pavement until Sunday afternoon. Even though I knew I could drive it without ABS, I was very glad to have it as a back up in the rain/sleet/ice/frozen crud roadways. (When it snows, I'll always take the Audi - a 99 with 147K miles - why have the idiots who can't drive hit my C4S?)

I would not let an option like PSM get in the way of getting a good deal on a 911. Yes, it is nice to have, but so are all the other options that are available. When I went looking for my used 2002 C2 a few years back, the only options I wanted were a sport suspension and 18 inch wheels. I got lucky and found one with not only those options but with PSM and PSE. I like my sports cars to be bare bone minimum as far as options. They are canyon race cars and I don't use them for ordinary driving. All the bells and whistles along with the navigation systems should remain on SUV's not on a sports car. I say go for it! Tom L 2002 C2

I grew up drifting my big *** 70s and 80s BMWs around corners before they even had ABS. If I had psm that would be fine but it's not even on my radar when I look at p-cars.

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It might be best NOT to confuse ABS with PSM(VSC) or even TC, Traction Control (virtual LSD, etc.). Insofar as I am concerned ABS is a rather useless feature and until it gets linked to PSM(VSC) for activation it will continue to be a safety hazard in certain situations. Just how many of us, even at track time, can be fully alert 100% 0f the time? PSM is ALWAYS fully alert. It is my understanding that while PSM can be turned off TC cannot, not even the virtual rear LSD aspects. But then just how many of us have EVER made use of TC when it wasn't desireable to have it as backup. Mine is a C4 and insofar as I know TC has NEVER activated inadvertently.

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Not true, when you turn PSM off, you turn TC off.

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Check this out... http://www.coochas.com/porsche/Resources/996.5PSM.mov Also there's a video somewhere in coochas where they clocked the car with way shorter lap time with the PSM on. http://www.coochas.com/porsche/911vids.html#996

No PSM on my 2000 996 C2 and I have never missed it. I also happen to be a long time owner of an '84 Carrera that's set up to be a bit sportier than stock, so my feeling is the 996 has the same dynamics as the older Carrera (which I like, btw) but has limits far beyond the older car's, so I consider it to be a ***** cat and easily controllable. In fact, I happen to like the tail-happiness of the car and the ability to easily "rotate" the car at will on a track. I've driven my wife's 2007 Cayman on track and I have to say that I'm not a big fan of the PSM in her car because just as I'm starting to get her to rotate a little, the system kicks in and kind of snaps it back in line. It feels unnatural to me. Personally, I consider the lack of PSM to be a non-issue when considering the purchase of one of these cars.

General comments not aimed at anyone in particular.. ABS useless?? PSM not as necessary with a skilled driver? Let me know how you manage to manually apply the brake on just one wheel to correct the start of a bad slide. These technologies advance the state of driving. If you are on the track, turn it off. On the street? Not even close.

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+1 I have always found the 996 to be very controllable. In an oversteer situation the car is pretty easy to catch (much easier than my Boxster) There is more than one way to correct a slide. In my experience oversteer is very easy to catch in the 996 with a quick correction. Additionally, having PSM on is no guarantee that it (PSM) can catch a "bad slide". A few minutes in a snow covered lot is all one needs to determine that the system can be overwhelmed. Don't get me wrong, I think PSM is a great system. That being said it is by no means "necessary" IMHO.

I agree with Ray that it's not necessary, but I'd rather have it than not just so that when it comes time to sell, it's not a neg on the car because it'll rarely if ever be a neg to have it. That's it.

I have had drivers' training/racing courses before and just did my first autocross (loads of fun). Learning the limits of a rear weight bais, AWD car with PSM was a lot different than front weight bais, RWD, with no "driving aids". If you were in snow or rain and pushing it, not having PSM would be a deal breaker. Since you are not, its nice to have but.... I find I can go pretty fast with it on. Besides, it'll just turn itself back on if I brake hard, right? (or does ABS actually have to engage?)

since I've really only put miles on this car with no PSM (to my knowledge) in sunny California and some desert runs out west, I've only had it in rain about 5 or 6 times (rainiest january in LA history or something) Once in a real proper cars-rolling-into-ditches-10 o'clock news torrential downpour. I did what I do in every other 300+ bhp RWD german car I own. I slowed down.

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Yep - just checking in on this thread.....I don't have PSM, don't want it, don't miss it. I'll stop short of saying it's for girls but honestly there hasn't been a moment yet where I wished I'd had it. On the street I use a couple of tricks I call "steering input" and throttle conrol" to manage the car's behaviour. On the track it's all about trail braking and throttle steering is't it. In Geoffery's case (996gfr) it's true I may have suggested he turn his PSM off, but then he used waayy too much throttle in an off camber turn in the wet...and he didnt anticipate with the steering either. I saw it coming... It wasn't the car's fault.

If you have good tires and you're a good driver, it's totally unnecessary on dry pavement.

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totally unnecessary - that was what I was trying to say. Well put.

Well I'm moving forward with the purchase (as you might notice from the change to my sig) so I'll know for sure in a few weeks. First Porsche - I'm very excited.

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Until you push it to the limit!! I just spent 2 days at the track playing with the PSM, and frankly, I like it. It helped point out some bad habits I've developed over the years. After a few sessions of finding where and how the PSM kicks in, I was able to adjust my line and technique to prevent the PSM from kicking in - and turned some nice smooth laps. When you do get over the limit, it really, really works at saving it. I was quite impressed.

Never leave home without it, period

It's certainly a great system and obviously is here to stay and helps cars move down the road extremely competently, but it shouldn't be a no-go if the car does not have it. Besides, we shouldn't be pushing it that hard on public roads anyway, right?

Right I guess what I am saying is if you got it use it. I never run with it off Does not stop me from having VERY spirited drives. Great safe guard

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Well...PSM may be a technological marvel but I don't accept that it will show you the fastest way around the track. More thn likely it made you slower. smoother yes, but slower. My feeling is that it's unnecessary. If you get stuck with a car that has it it's good to know you can turn it off.

Where I live there is snow on the road 3 months of the year, sand on the road 5 months of the year, and frost heaves, broken asphalt, and potholes year round. This isn't the pacific west.

To answer this question, you have to analyze the various functions of PSM and what they are intended to do. Then you can decide if they are really needed. ABS - PSM controls and uses ABS, which I think we all would agree is a good thing. ABS remains active, even when the PSM button is turned off. ABD and ASC - Automatic Brake Differential and Automatic Slip Control. ABD uses the brakes to act as an electronic version of a limited slip differential to keep drive torque going to the rear wheel with grip. ASC is simply traction control, it closes the throttle if both rear wheels are slipping under acceleration. This is a function that can easily be replaced by some training of the right foot. A car with ASC should out accelerate a non-ASC car on slippery surfaces with 99% of drivers, because the computer will react faster than most of us. This could be important in a wet race where you want optimum traction in slippery conditions but is not as critical on the street, where you shouldn't be trying to maximize acceleration when the conditions are slippery. ABD remains active, even when PSM is turned off. EDC - Engine Drag-torque Control. This function is basically to counter trailing throttle oversteer which is what you get when you are near the traction limit in a corner and you lift, which begins to rotate the rear of the car. A well trained driver will use this characteristic of the 911 to get the car to turn in for a corner, so having an electronic aid to counter it is not always desirable. Of course, this feature can be turned off via the PSM button. On the street, you probably shouldn't be cornering fast enough where this function is engaged. DDC - Driving Dynamics Control. Basically this system detects understeer or oversteer conditions and selectively brakes the appropriate wheel to counter the unwanted condition. DDC will also retard the throttle if you are badly out of shape and it can not correct by just using the brakes. Of course, if a car is properly set up, oversteer and understeer should be completely controlable through driver inputs with the steering and throttle. This is called car control and good, experienced drivers have learned how to do it. New drivers need to learn it. DDC could be useful on the street but if you're getting into it, you should probably just slow down.

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In theory I'd agree with you. However, in practice the TC function of PSM is the most "hamfisted" aspect of the system in my opinion. In my experience it cuts engine power (big time) to regain traction and it's very slow to re-apply power. The system seems to work best in extremely low traction situations. In medium to high traction conditions I find that it is far too aggressive.

Can't do this with PSM on.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at6VK-Yf2Pc

I was driving aggressively on brand new rear tires, I forgot that there is a break in period for like 500 miles... PSM is great for blond moments like these. No offense to the blondes