Now Scared of IMS Failure

Well after reading several articles and horror stories about the 911's 3.6L IMS failures, I am frustrated and utterly confused. The failure rate seems alarming in the 2004's with @15000 to 40000 miles. I was offered a Porsche backed 2 year / 24,000 mile warranty for $1800 on the 2004 911 AE (30,000 miles) I was looking at but now I'm scared to proceed any further. I don't see how I can risk dropping that kind of money on this car then just waiting for it to frag. Would IMS failure even be covered? Then I read about the weak internal parts in the 3.6, etc. Im just about ready to give up. Have I been disillusioned about the great things I heard about Porsche? Was it all BS and now their less reliable than a beater? I even read about numerous failures on this forum. What the hell is going on with these cars? They look great but the engine is severely flawed???? I simply cant afford to wait around while the engine self destructs then shell out 14000 for a reman. These cars are too new and low mileage for this to be going on. Are these problems being exaggerated? I would be scared to leave town in a 911 if I buy one. Please help me calm down because I just loss faith in my Porsche dealer.

its all true, don't buy one.

Ok, I will start with this, Originally this was a $90k or more car, buying one for $25k and hoping it will never need a $5-10 or 20k repair is ok, but not out of the relm of possabilities. Cheap to buy does not mean cheap to own Then again a large % of these cars can be driven for years with minimal out of pocket expenses. Don't think it is abnormal to have one last for 150k miles, nor go kaboom at 40k Protect, prepare, preserve, pray and prevent

If you buy a Mercedes the engine could blow, it happens. If you're going to be paranoid find a different car to buy.

Any vehicle forum will be littered with people that have had problems,in many cases it's why they're at a forum. The thing to remember is that,the number of threads is probally not the cross-section of owners you're looking for. There are far more cars that don't have a problem than do. Myself and many others have changed the bearing as a preventative measure,and I sleep just fine. It shouldn't be a deal breaker. If it concerns you use it bargaining leverage on price and have it replaced after purchase. Anything mechanical will have design problems that won't show up until years into the production run. This bearing can be replaced,so don't sweat it.

or spend 2k and get an LN bearing. really is not a big deal.

Curious where you developed your target year {2004} and milage { 15K-30K }

Buy the car and if the engine or IMS goes kapoooot. Throw th car away (:

go away! Get a friggin Ferrari.

clutch on a Ferrari = $20+k, same for the CGT and the more I dig into this the more I realize that other cars have problems and those problems cost money...but for what ever reason the people dont mind as much. I think it has to do with the buy in point of these cars...sub $20k so people are thinking a motor rebuild is $5k - and it's NOT

Simple... Buy a Turbo or like mentioned, get the LN bearing installed. That solves the problem right there pretty much. But by the looks of it, you are not the Porsche owner type. I had all these questions as well + more when I first started looking and bought mine, but I didn't make a thread about it. You also seem a bit conservative judging by some of your questions. Conservative and Porsche don't go hand in hand. The decision is yours, just like anything else in life if you really want it. Just as an fyi, I've had my car for 2 years now, and literally nothing broke or failed on it. I love it!

I can't believe no one brought up the IMS Guardian!

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Yes. Next question?

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Yes, it would be covered... On the other hand, have you looked at the new Camry?

Camry is dreamy rides like a 997 too !! (thats is not true I had a ride in a 997 c2s that actually hurt me!!)

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Definitely. The economics of the 996 put it in an interesting spot. I think a lot of guys are looking at the price of a 996 vs a new (or couple of year old) BMW 3 series or other aspirational luxury car and saying: why would I buy that when I could get the 911 that I always wanted for less $$$? But they don't realize that they're buying into the maintenance costs of a 6 to 10 year old $100,000 car, not a new or 2 year old $40,000 car. If your BMW engine needed to be replaced for 15% of original sticker price, you'd be looking at $6,000 (which seems about right). In the 996, it's $15,000 - and that seems like a lot of money.

Have to say I'm not sure how the fact that the cars orginally cost upwards of 100k mitigates the spotty engine reliability on the 996s. Wasn't it Huschke Von Hanstein that said "Porsches Don't Break"? Maybe he was referring to Turbos...:-)) BTW, if this problem is so exaggerated why has LN Engineering gone to so much trouble (and been so busy) developing and selling a solution? I'm on my 2nd Carrera, 1st was an '87 Cab and now an '88 Coupe. The cab suffered the failed clutch release lever so just replaced along with the clutch which was wearing out anyway. The '88 had the "faulty" valve guides (only lasted 150,000 miles...) which gave me a bad case of "whileyourinthereitis" and decided to rebuild the engine to the crank. Note that all major parts were well within spec. The point is neither of these were catastrophic failures, which has happened to some close friends which the M96(?) engined cars. On the other hand, one friends 996 is reliable as a hammer and he loves it compared to his prior 911s which were a 993 and a 930. Don't get me wrong, I'm leaning towards moving to a 996 due to the ridiculous prices I'mseeing,.unless the 996 Turbos keep dropping as well...

turbos seem to be on the rise $$$ wise anyhow

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An interesting question for the economists out there: Does the 996 market price reflect a discount because of the IMS "issue"? Has the IMS situation devalued these cars in any significant way? Initially, I was inclined to say that it had. But the theoretical maximum discount would be the cost of an LN Engineering retrofit (~$2K), and if you added $2,000 to the value of any of these cars, it would still seem like a bargain. If I were in the market for a 996 at this point, I think I'd just budget the retrofit into my acquisition costs.

I think it is a good time to buy a 996, IMS bearing or not. Not sure if they can devalue that much more, aside for adjustment due to standard depreciation. The economy already did it's fair share, and yes IMHO the IMSBF already did it's job at devaluation as well. But long term... not so sure. Unless there is a cheap rebuild alternative (LOKASIL) that comes along, there could be very few 996's running in 10 years time. At which point if you still own one, perhaps that might actually increase the value assuming you've dealt with that issue properly (NIKASIL)??? For example look at 993's still running in great condition.

remeber when I said "I still liked these threads" I changed my mind Pete...pass a cigar

Does get monotonous after the millionth time doesn't it?

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Agree 100%....KrazyK based upon your post I don't think you'll be happy buying one. You'll be constantly second guessing yourself and be upset at Porsche and your car.

I don't think many 996 buyers would even think of this problem. How many non-car enthusiasts really go out and research a vehicle on the internet before buying it? Most will take it for a test drive and unless something is horribly wrong with the way it runs will proceed with the purchase of it. It is an assumption now that all modern cars will function upwards of 100k miles so if you asked the average P-car owner was an IMS was, they'd think you're asking about a female problem. 996 prices are low because of the economy and because they don't look like other 911s. Look at the prices of other "bastard" Porsches...you can get a late 1990s Boxster at a buy-here-pay-here for $10k. And consider what happened to prices for 944s and most 928s. So I think it all boils down to supply and demand, not buyers being scared off by engine issues.

More cowbell.

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I enjoyed your classification of the non 911 Porsches

Pay for a rennlist membership and you chances of failure drop considerably.

Actually I owe great thanks to you guys and the forum. I researched this model and read the 911 buyers guide before I made the conditional offer on the car in Houston. I have an extensive amount of mechanical training just not on Porsches. So thank you again for educating me about what to look for and keeping me from making a huge mistake on the Houston 911 AE. Funny thing is, this car didnt pass the initial exterior inspection so I didnt even bother with the fun mechanical stuff. The hunt continues I guess, although somewhat disillusioned about the 996.

Dont be disillusioned. I went through the same thing, bought a 996 c4s. LOVE it. I budgeted the 2k to fix the bearing, should I have to on a car like this, well no but in order to sleep better i am doing it. The % is still very low at the end of the day. Dont bother with the IMS guardian (just my opinion), as you will still wonder when. Save the $$ get it done right and dont worry. Otherwise you need to save for a turbo or 09+ 997 when the IMS issues went away. Big price difference on all fronts. Just my 02.

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Love that skit...especially Will Ferrell with the little half shirt. HAHA! In the eyes of a purist that's probably a nice way of describing our cars!

Well worth the investment. http://www.flat6innovations.com/shop...roductid=16285 Plenty of threads from Flat 6 on here during development and release of the product. You guys should get one and then you can sleep at night.

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] http://sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/images/5/59/Cowbell.gif

"Hey, I'm Mark Wahlberg. You guys know me. Let's talk to some Porsches. Say hi to your mother for me, alright?" Okay, in all seriousness, as others have suggested, you might want to look into the LNE replacement bearing and also the Flat6 Innovation's IMS Guardian. I'm not sure where you got your numbers from on the 2004s. From everything I've read/heard, the 2004 models were the "best of the bunch" because they benefited from the most updates bestowed upon the 996es...but they , still have the bearing so, who knows what that will mean in the long term. Either way, if it's going to haunt you every time you get into the car, you might want to think twice about a 996...or plan on spending extra for one of the "fixes" to ease your mind. Best of luck in your search! -Eric

If you decide that the LN Eng retrofit is a must have, make sure your m96 is a candidate before you buy. Not all m96 are eligible for the retrofit, some will require full R&R and tear down to replace the bearing. Keep in mind that the retrofit is good maintenance, but is not a cure for the inadequate lubrication designed into the m96 IMS system. If the possibility of a $20,000 engine repair is a show stopper I'd avoid cars having MSRP of $90,000+. Unfortunately repair costs do not scale as the resale value falls.

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Dang it...late the party. I have a cigar waiting for you Ed. This topic just drains me. I have said before and I will say it again...we need a separate forum for this thing. Big fan of the cowbell too.

I have decided to get the 2 year / 24000 mile warranty from Fidelity. Dealer said it will cover the engine and IMS failure. It is backed at Porsche dealers and seems to cover everything except normal wear items. I agree with the other posters about putting the $400 cost of the guardian towards IMS bearing replacement. Frequent oil changes, magnetic drain plug, exam of filter, and warranty should put my mind at ease on this. According to the dealer IMS failure is rare and usually only seen in engines with 100,000+ miles. Not sure where they get the figures but I wont have to worry for 2 years. I also have a hard time believing its 10% of the 911's.

Wow! I have not been a member here very long and I'm already tired of hearing about this issue. Man, if I investigated the reliability of every vehicle I owned before buying, I'd probably ending taking a taxi everywhere. They ALL have problems of some sort. Buy something that gets you excited and drive the hell of of it. Just my two cents.

I tend to ignore these threads

"Wow! I have not been a member here very long and I'm already tired of hearing about this issue. Man, if I investigated the reliability of every vehicle I owned before buying, I'd probably ending taking a taxi everywhere. They ALL have problems of some sort. Buy something that gets you excited and drive the hell of of it. Just my two cents." Maybe Im being over cautious? I like to do extensive research before I buy vehicles but maybe its because Im a wrench turner that enjoys mechanics as a hobby? I would not have the patience to do it as a profession. Daryl, Im taking the research advice from the 996 buyers guide so thank you forum.

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I thought the c4s shared the same engine as the Turbo and does not have the IMS issue? By the way, a rebuild on a Turbo engine is roughly $28K...much higher than a standard 996...so either way, engine catastrophe will cost ya.

Nope.

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You should include a quick novena to Saint DeChantray, the patron saint of "**** Be Breakin Up In Here"

[QUOTE=Maybe Im being over cautious? I like to do extensive research before I buy vehicles but maybe its because Im a wrench turner that enjoys mechanics as a hobby? I would not have the patience to do it as a profession. [/QUOTE] If you are a wrench turner, then the 996 is the PERFECT car for you. I have owned 4 996's and I refuse to part with my current one.

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My bad...good thing I bought a Turbo. All this time, I thought the C4S was just like the Turbo in all ways except for the turbos. I always lose at gambling, so I couldn't take the risk with the IMS, especially since I usually buy on the cheaper end of the spectrum. I would factor into the price like others have suggested and replace the bearing/seal and you should be good to go. 996 NB parts and such are much more widely available, so that is a plus.

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I was in your shoes about 2 years ago. I chose to buy the car and do the LNE bearing. 30K miles later. I dont even think of it.

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Does the Boxster not share the same engine and IMS issues?

So its the IMS defect thats making the 911 prices nosedive?

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I doubt it cuz the 911 Turbo without the defect took a pretty big hit as well. I am thinking it is more due to the economy along with the fact that older cars cost more to maintain (esp an engine rebuild).

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One of the causes, for sure. Whether or not this IMS issue has been blown all out of proportion by internet hype we'll never really know, but it DOES seem to have some effect on retail prices. However, there are other issues causing this as well. The fact that there were so many 996's sold during the production run has had a negative effect on it's resale value. The economy being in the doldrums for the past, oh, ten years or so certainly has had an effect on resale prices. Fewer people are and have been willing to spend money on luxury items like weekend sports cars.

Have other 911's not suffered this much depreciation before picking back up once they become "classic"?

If IMS bothers you so much then just swap it out. My Porsche indy does the swap for $1100 including the LN Engineering bearing! That's a drop in the bucket for the reassurance it provides........ I consider this a "preventative maintenance" cost; and done with other servicing (e.g. spark plugs, RMS, etc.) you'll have a nice car that will last you a LONG time. If you can't afford ~$1100 for preventative maintenance then you shouldn't own a 911, or any other high end sports car for that matter. I'm not aware of any used high perf. sports car (M3, Viper, 911, NSX, etc) that doesn't have some type of "fault" that needs to be addressed. Some cars burn through clutches, some are expensive to service, etc...... Pay to play......

I think the 996 wont ever increase because of the reasons he stated above and all the reliability issues. At least they seem to be a bargain for guys that want to work on them but I would not take the 996 on a lengthy road trip because of the IMS problem.

I cannot believe how derailed this thread has become. The OP who does not even own a pcar thus not speaking from experience is telling everyone about the reliability on these cars. If you don't trust in these cars, then buy a Ferrari. Go buy Nissan and be done with it. There will be more of these cars left for us. Its as simple as that. I have put thousands of miles in my car in just a period of a few days without issues. Picked up my car in Chicago and drove back to Connecticut over a weekend. I drove up to Montreal F1 not once but twice including a trip to Old Quebec. There are plenty of other members who have taken these cars on lengthy road trips without issues. Rant over and checking out!

I have owned my 996 for over 4 year, it's been 100% Reliable. The Boxster S I had before it with the same "possible IMS issues" .. 100% Reliable. I tend to think that is the MAJORITY of 996/986/997 cars and not the other way around. Yes I think there is a real problem but it's not as big a deal as most make of it. I did the IMS Retrofit. I have yet to own a German car that did not have it's known issues. If a car is going to cause you worry or stress, It is NOT the car for you, thats not what owning a sports car is about. You guys can beat this dead horse forever but it is what it is. And 996 are the used car bargains they are because they produced a ton of them and some people had a need for round headlights.

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+1 What he said^

Im... ummmm, yeah, agree.

ah ****, Did I buy the wrong car ? I was so happy with it!. Brings a smile to my face still to this day! must just be the fumes.

This says it all...

Please, make it go away... no , not the horse.

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You are truly clueless.

Hey guys while we're on the topic of slamming Porsche... I just bought a 944 for $500. This things a piece of ****. I cant believe a PORSCHE would have the problems that this thing does.

And on that bombshell .... thats all we have time for this week!