997 Update!

Seems like this is the suspected timing: 2004 late: C2 and C2S Coupe 2005: C2S Cab and C4S Coupe 2006: C4S Cab (400hp), GT3 and Turbo 2007: GT2 2008: 998 ======================================= From the latest AutoBild article....and with some try at translation, this is what the scoop is saying: The new design 997 will appear only as Coup�. However there are two different versions starting from Carrera 2 and the Carrera 2S with wider rear flared fenders, 19" wheels and sport chassis. The new C2/S Cabrio and the C4/S Coup� follow in 2005, the C4/S Cabrio with 400 HP strong, GT3 as well as the Turbo with all-wheel drive and 460 HP appears in 2006. Targa and the second edition of the GT2 complete 2007 offerings. The 911 gets more capacity (3.8 instead of 3.6 litres), more power (340 instead of 320 HP) and when desired a Tiptronic transmission with more gears (six instead of five). The cockpit with better readable instruments, better formed seats and a completely better quality is likewise new. But the 997 is only a further evolution stage, not a genuine new development. For that we wait until 2008.

Thanks for the post. That all sounds like good news. Build quality improvements are certainly needed over the 996! If they are done right, I'll be waiting to pick up my c2s! It's been disappointing to see the fit and finish on a $90k car inferior to a $20k Toyota, since the change in 1999. Does anyone know if there will be any changes in chassis size, windshield rake, interior room, etc.?

I spoke to my dealer about this only yesterday. As can be expected, he doesn't know much more than we do. Except that from his information he said the first 997s will likely show up in September which according to him is the start of the new Porsche AG fiscal year. He said the C4s is the main seller at the moment so it is likely they will phase in the 997 in C2 models only so as not to affect current C4s sales. So this ties with your info Eric. My only issue with this is that if they expect them in september, shoudn't they be taking orders now? BTW: if I stay with the porker I will wait for the cab.

For September show in US, I bet we'll see a bunch of factory cars, like they did with the C4S and Turbo Cabs. They'll deliver black/black and silver/black and a few others with a few options tossed in. That starts the trickle. If my sources and some history are correct, I'd expect US dealers to have order guides on the 997 sometime after April (if they have May guides and order for September production, customer orders will show in November or so). Again, simply speculation.

Next 2 cars: 2006 997 C4S 2010 998 C4S

BostonMark, I'm with you! I just hope as many are saying that the quality is improved over my 2003 C4S. Interior quality doesn't concern me, as with other posters state, but mechanical quality on a brand that wins so many 24 hr races should be far more reliable for the street, or occassional track use.

I was thinking of an aerokit c2s coupe....special order zanzibar maybe...

I hope the new C2's change to the TT block rather than continuing with the M96 block. If so, I would be interested.

I hope the built quality improves (not to mention engine & tranny) but Porsche said "production costs will be significantly lower than on 996 models", which in my opinion means built quality can't be much better than what it is currently.

400HP on the n/a C4S and 460 on the turbo? So they're gonna bump n/a horsepower by about 60, and give the turbo an extra 10 or so over the current X50 turbo??

What? no TT Cab? That's the top of the line for Porsche's street cars. I can't believe they will drop it after only one or two model years.

Eric the plug guy... so you are speculating that they'll put out a c4s in 2005 with 340 hp and a 400 hp c4s cab the following year. i don't see how that would make sense...

Any supportable indications of changing the m96 block on the 997's?

So even the C2 is going to be a widebody? Cool. Be interesting to see some designs on the Targa project

Remember guys/gals, this is all speculation. AutoBild article seems to be fairly precise in the timing of releases, and does a decent job on Porsche info. But we could all be surprised. Some stories would make you believe Coupe and Cab will arrive same time. I think we will know more around the April time frame as dealers begin to get order guides for the '05 model year. I also suspect the current bodies TT Cab and C4S Cab will continue through the '05 model year. That would make some sense if they are bringing out the C2 and C2S coupe only in the first six months or so. Then if you wanted a cab by spring '05, the 997 C2 Cab would probably be available, and as soon as they roll out a C4S Cab or something like it, the TT Cab and C4S Cab in 996 flavor would be gone. Two year run is typical with special models from Porsche anyway. But again, pure speculation. In my own opinion, they should take hp to 360hp range and find 500 lbs to lose on the base car. THAT would spark sales and get things rolling. 340-345 is too easy and readily available now anyway. Maybe for nostalgia 365hp would be a good target, eh?

400 hp is probably for the new GT3, and not the C4S cab. This makes sense since all models would then have approx. 20 hp increase.

If there is nothing more than 20 hp improvement, I think this is a travesty. Porsche has to take a look around and see the new Corvette at 400 hp (a 50 hp increase over the last iteration). The new Mustang GT at 300 hp (way too close, and the Cobra will be far more). The STI at 300 hp, the M3 at 333, the new SLK AMG will be in the 360-370 range. I know that Porsches have many things more to it but it used to be that the 911 Porsches had substantially better performance than the lower end sports cars, and very similar performance to the Vettes. Now I am afraid neither is the case. I was hoping for 350+ hp for the regular Carreras. Also, don't give me the nonsense that if we want more hp we should look at the GT3 or the TT. How desensitized have we become when we expect mediocre performance from a $70K automobile (standard Carrera), instead we expect everybody to pay an extra $15K for a "performance" kit or $100K + for a GT3. This pricing structure is ridiculous. Like spending high $70's on my car wasn't enough, instead to get the best Porsche has to offer I have to spend another $15K ? If they can make a 345 hp (and with the next engine 365 hp) with the regular engine than we should get the best Porsche has to offer at the regular car's price. Do you see Chevy having a 325 hp version, and a 350 hp version of their V8 on their Vette's ? How about a 300 hp or 333 hp of the M3 ? This company is making it hard to consider another purchase. I can respect what they are doing with the TT (from 420 to 460 hp). At least that is a substantive increase in power. We know there will be a 500 hp Z06, and the new Cobra will have a substantial hp increase. The Viper has 500 hp. Performance should be equal or (preferably) better than all these cars across the board. The 911 should be the yardstick which all other cars are measured against, not "just as good" as the others.

Fanman, you are absolutely right.

Fanman, I too totally agree with your sentiments. I don't fancy the 997's just beacause of this minor hp upgrade, I'll wait for the 998 for an upgarde for my C4S.

couldn't agree more. why take another 'bath' on a 997 for a facelift and a couple twenty HP. I understand the aging of the 996, but should Porsche really not be going straight to a revolutionized car? Won't the 997 depreciate in the same fashion as the 996? I too will be waiting for the 998.

The disappoinment with 997, from what I've read, would seem to be that a 20 hp hike will probably only offset an increase in weight with better quality interiors being the main culprit. So 20 hp will likely lead to no real gain in performance. As Porsche have kept most of the major underpinnings from 997 (you can see this from a look at the hard points) it would have been hard for them to do anything else. Let's hope that 998 pursues weight savings with avengence. (You can find more noodlings in a post I wrote on this about 2 months ago) I still think/hope that Porsche will adopt an aluminum spaceframe approach (which they can "borrow" or co-develop with Audi to radically reduce weight and give them flexibility to build all 4 model lines off this technology. (if you know anyone who works high enough up in Alcoa or Alcan they should know by now if this is the case). A lighter structure will mean there's no need to keep developing more power just to offset weight gain (the real performance gains, as with the Lotus Elise should come from weight saving) which also means not having to develop larger, heavier cooling systems, heavier and stronger gearboxes,or fit larger heavier wheels and tires, or heavier suspension components. Most of us can't use the current car's top speed legally anyway, but we can get many more thrills out of a lighter, better handing, and more accelerative car. Let's hope Porsche pursues an Atkins diet for 998 and resists the tempation to take the easy route and just bulk up on automotive ephedra...

You know all this talk about more and more horsepower is interesting. It's good and bad at the same time. I appreciate the horsepower war going on now, but at the same time it scares me. All good things must come to an end and I would hate the see the trend do a 180. Insurance, kids racing, traffic congestion etc. etc. are sure to kill it off. What is going to differentiate sports cars in the near future? You can't keep increasing horsepower forever. Where will it end...1000 HP?! Can you go 0-60 in 0.5 seconds? It will be interesting to see what happens as the power figures reach a threshold. Even now there are sedans and even some crossover SUV's that would match or even beat some sports cars. Will people lose interest in sports cars because they're not "fast" anymore relatively speaking? Personally I would like to see Americans start thinking about lighter cars with better suspension and brakes instead of just adding more power and bigger engines to heavy cars and trucks without looking at the overall picture. The fascination with going fast in a straight line (or the perception of being able to) in the U.S. is pretty pathetic. What will make a car stand out in the future? Styling? Options? Interiors? Price? It will be interesting to see what happens. I just hope it doesn't minimize sports cars to the point nobody sees why they should buy one.

911s have never had as much hp as a Vette, etc. A 1971 911 S has 190 hp and a 1971 Vette has 425 Hp in the LS6 motor. 911s are not a muscle car. Comparing to a Viper or a Vette to me is a travesty. I do agree with the weight issue, the 3.6L saw no performance increase because of the weight gain and this is a trend which I hope Porsche does not continue. It's about the CURVES!!!

About lightening it. I 100% ABSOLUTELY agree that would be the best way to go, unfortunately with today's increasing safety & emissions standards I just don't see that happening. I saw an article once done on the Audi A8, that said it had something to the effect of 800 lbs. of safety equipment on the car !!! I would love for the 911 to be 100-200 lbs. lighter. We all know that either you have less weight or more hp/torque on a car to make it go faster. I'm just disappointed with the direction that Porsche is going, it seems almost arrogant in thinking that "Porsche has always done it this way" and keep the 20 hp every 4 years trend going, while the rest of the industry has gone by Porsche. Do we realize that when Porsche had 282 hp, the last M3 had 240. Now the 911 has 320/340, while the M3 has 333 hp. The Vette had 300, then 350, now 400 hp vs. the 911 282 to 300 to 320 to 340. We gained 58 hp, while in that time span they have gained 100 hp. It would be different if we had lost weight on the car, but it has gained weight just like the other cars in the market.

I also could not agree more with fanman. I have owned 3 911 and a 944 before that, but I can not see buying a 997 if this info is right. Porsche has never been the 0-60 leader, but what they lacked in HP they made up within handling/performance and race car heritage. This is not the case anymore, the new vet as an example will be faster, handle as well, and will out brake the 997. And the Z06 version will be that much better. I am sure the Nuremberg ring times when they become available will bear this out. I am sure the interior and quality of materials will be better in the Porsche, but this is a sports car not a sedan.

I couldn't agree with you more.

More horses would be great, at least 360 on the base 911 and 400+ on the flat 8 S model. Realistically, I for one would be happy if they would go back to the GT3/ Nikasil block for all 911s.

it's been confirmed there will be no flat 8 and instead they will use the existing 4.5L V8, i would hope tuned for more hp though, 340 is from the v8 on the 998 is too little too late. the 997 isn't even out yeat and is already outclassed which is too bad. I really hope prosche gets there act together with the 998. They need to have a cayenne or better interior, sleek exterior similar to the carrera GT, and V8 powere with no less than 400hp in base form to remain even competitive. more torque would be nice too to offset all the extra weight that is coming with the new models. I say wait for a 2008 Porsche 998 C2S V8 400hp/400torque(simialr to corvette) with a nice interior, Dual clutch transmission, and 0 to 60 in 4.0 seconds with a 190 mph top speed. Now that would be worth the money

I hope the built quality improves (not to mention engine & tranny) but Porsche said "production costs will be significantly lower than on 996 models", which in my opinion means built quality can't be much better than what it is currently. Notice the 993 owner's dislike of current 911's. Truth is, 993's have more TSB's than 996's. Hopefully the 997's will continue this trend. I've noticed this bias before, what's the deal?

Porsche sure is making it easier to move on..... Last week I test drove my buddy's new M3 and I have to admit, it was pretty nice. At least better then I thought. In the end, the 996 still "feels" better but its getting "really" close. And now there's the Lotus Elise at $40k!

And there's Aston Martins AMV8 coming soon too. Priced to compete with the 911 range. I also think the company is fast loosing its cred with its loyal 911 customer base. Lots of talk about a saloon version coming, the next SUV etc. Notice also the Boxter is set to get a hefty hp increase this year too. But for us 911 customers, for many years the core of their business, they have lost the plot. I get the feeling they would like to see the end of the 911 range. They would much prefer to bring the company down a scale. Gone are the days that Porsche was a dream car that few of us could dream of owning. They want to sell hatchbacks, family cars, SUVs.....hell even snow sleighs. Fact is, this marque has lost a lot of its uniqueness. It's no big deal to own a porsche anymore. I mean.....the very fact that you've got guys procrastinating over whether to buy a vette or Porsche says it all.

I don't dislike current 911s' per say. I do dislike the "bling bling" models of current Porsche line-up (911 or not) and I don't think I'm alone here when I read about people complaining about too much weight etc. Not to mention posts where people say Porsche has lost it's credit which I totally agree. Porsche has become more luxury than sport and that's a fact I dislike. Gimme GT3 anyday and for sure I'll love it, it's a great sportscar! TT Cabriolet with all leather interior and satellite navigators etc. and I don't. But hey, that's just me, I'm sorry if that doesn't agree with your opinion. Besides, I was quoting what Porsche has said about next 911's building costs (which they say will be significantly less) and IMHO that usually means quality won't be better. Not to mention I didn't say anything disliking about 996, just said new model's quality can't be much better (so I guess I'm disliking 997 now, what's the deal with that?)

[QUOTE] Originally posted by TIS330ci [B]it's been confirmed there will be no flat 8 and instead they will use the existing 4.5L V8 Porsche in fact denied not too long ago that 998 (in a German magazine) would get a V8 and claimed the mags had got it wrong. But they have been running V8's in 996 mules as part of the test program for the "4th line" model. They neither confirmed nor denied that 998 would get a flat-8... A flat-8 would have some issues with packaging and rear overhang to a point that it wouldn't make sense from a handling perspective.

Really, how much bigger and heavier do you think a flat 8 would be? I don't think the difference would be significant at all. An 8 cylinder engine is not necessarily heavier, for instance a small block Chevy V8 weighs less than the Porsche flat 6.

You run into issues of balance - yet more weight out beyond the wheel line, and the challenge of cooling. Bigger engine will need more cooling so more weight somewhere for bigger radiators, which messes up drag, which messes up performance and fuel consumption...You might also need bigger rear wheels and stronger rear suspension components, delivering yet more weight...It's not just the weight of the engine, but see it holistically as a system and what the system needs when you add two cylinders. So why would you want to fit a flat-8???

First rule of hot rodding, there's no replacement for displacement . Besides, the concept is not new to Porsche, for example the 904 GTS used flat 4,6 and 8 engines.

I am just curious to know who porsche is marketing this 997 for, other than possibly a first time buyer who wants a showroom car. I don't see how a 996 owner would get rid of his car for such a meager improvement. If 997 is not a big improvement, price of a used 996 will hold it's value better, and thus used car sale will compete with the sales. I can't understand the arrogance of porsche if they don't make the GT3 engine architecture the standard 997 design, and graduate to a flat-8 for 998 soon. Till then I am not giving up my C4S. Eventhough I am dissapointed with porsche's current marketing strategy, I am addicted to 911's, so I am not going to move to a vette, viper or infact an astonmartin yet, the drive of a 911 feels more connected, even if it's not the most powerful. But, if 997 doesn't improve dramatically i'll just hold onto my porsche, and if 998 is not a of earth-shattering performance, it's time to shop around.

I seriously hope you guys don't actually believe there is a chance they will put a v8 in a 911 variant. That would seriously throw off the balance, and the shape of the car. The only way they could do it is to make it mid engine, and mount it a 90deg,which I think is safe to say they wont do. A flat 8 maybe, but it would probably be a more compact engine, maybe a 4 liter with smaller pistons, so that the engine would be only marginally larger than the current flat 6. also you guys are assuming the 998 will be a 911 variant, when it could be a new 928 type car.

I hope the built quality improves (not to mention engine & tranny) but Porsche said "production costs will be significantly lower than on 996 models", which in my opinion means built quality can't be much better than what it is currently. You infer that 996's have a poor build quality, why? That's where I disagree with you. It sounds like you're dissing current P-cars...that's all.

Compared to other vehicles costing much less, the 911's interior build quality leaves something to be desired. I would only have to drive my 2004 Lexus RX-330 to affirm this. However, most people buy a 911 for much more than the cheap plastic stalks on the steering column but when you drop a ton of cash on a car is it asking too much to have the same quality as a "lesser" car? Rob

Personally I've never seen a 911 as a hot rod - I enjoy it for the corners not driving it in a straight line. But the 904 was not rear engined, it was mid engined: a whole different and much better balance than the 911's rear engined configuration.

Who said anything about a straight line? I track my 996 quite a lot here at TWS, a 2.9 mile road course, so I think you might say I enjoy "corners" too LOL. You should try it sometime, if you haven't already. Yes the 904 GTS was a middie, a better example would be the 912 vs 911 (flat4 vs 6). I'm merely trying to point out that Porsche has utilized different engine configurations without a complete redesign of the chassis.

Here's the first post on the 8 pot 997 engine rumor that makes sense! You guys forget the 911 is a design severely constrained by the choice of engine placement made 40 years ago. Porsche basically admitted this during the introduction of the front engined 928 series. I drove a 928 for many years and over 200k miles and can attest to the fact that this car was light years ahead of the 911 at the time and would still be reasonable competition even today. It was the appealing classic shape and primary market demand by 911 worshipers that doomed the 928 during cash-short times and forced Porsche to maintain production of the 911. I do agree that what Porsche has managed to accomplish with the 911 over the years is truly remarkable and the current 996 is certainly a respectable sports car in all areas (although the cockpit is still a little tight IMO). To get me excited about the 997 and cough up the $100k new car rite of passage fee would be no less than 400HP and GT3 levels of performance without the ultra stiff ride and peaky engine. I don't see how this could happen without an 8, and the 911 engine packaging dictates the flat-8. Oh, and the PDK transmission would be another plus! Here's hoping the C2S will be that car!

I infer mainly the engine and transmission. Other people have complained (in this thread also) about interior quality which I'm sure you're aware of also but for me, biggest concern is with Engine & Transmission. I don't like the way "normal" 996 models don't have engine and transmission as older 911's and GT2, GT3 and TT do/did. To me, that's the biggest area where Porsche needs to improve (go back to old principle) but when they say cost of building next 911 will be significantly less, I don't see that happening. Not dissing all current P-cars, some (parts) of them and principles in Porsche of today.

Excellent point about the TSBs. I read somewhere that production quality (mfg defects/#units) was higher for 993s than 964s. Looks like a trend to me. I have no idea what the deal is (besides annoying ), but I think it might have something to do with a rosier (or otherwise inaccurate) perception of Porsche history. It's not like one can't look this stuff up, but I guess an "opinion" is just as good as a "fact" on a discussion board.

You're kidding, right? Why do you think there is no race version of the Boxster? Why do you think the Boxster is (and will remain) subordinate to the 911 in price, horsepower and performance? Porsche makes a huge margin on the 911. It's not going anywhere until that's no longer true. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

There's been a lot of comments here about Porsche's production costs being reduced and the fear this will reflect poorly on the future quality of Porsche's products. Many people cited there Japanese or German cars as having what they thought were quality or well made. Well the American car industry has typically had the highest cost of production and from what I read here most people will agree, the lowest quality. Don't overlook the fact that making production processes simpler often results in lower cost AND higher quality. Also economies of scale contribute to these lower production costs, and possibly some of the benefits realized with the Cayenne project will trickle down to the 911. Albeit hopefully not TOO much...

From where do you get this stuff? I never said anything about TSB's but if that's an issue, I think we should be accurate here, there's some times too much "I read somewhere" on these boards anyway. As you said, one can look this stuff up and when one does, you will find out that actually 996 has more TSB's than 993, and as a matter of fact, 964 has the most (of these three). Here's some real info for first production year (in US) 911 Coupe model TSB's: -1990 Porsche 911 Coupe, total number of TSB's: 242. -1995 Porsche 911 Coupe, total number of TSB's: 101. -1999 Porsche 911 Coupe, total number of TSB's: 120.

like someone said before, if it's an "opinion" then it must be true...what i don't get is why so many 993 guys are so anti 996... envy maybe??

Brian, I'm sorry but I don't understand what does that mean? Those TSB numbers are just facts, not my "opinions". I posted them since you guys started to talk about TSB's saying "opinions" which were simply not true. How that makes this 993 owner envy or anti 996, I fail to understand, maybe you can explain it to me?

FINN, from what you say and the way you say it...seems like your opinions are one sided. I love my 996, that's all I have to say...

Brian, You say you love your 996 (and you're blaming me for being one sided...), I say great for you! I love my 993 as well and I love almost all Porsches! Some more, some less but that's not the point here, IMO. I'm sorry if I'm saying things wrongly, I have a weak spot for raw Porsches but I don't mean to "offend" anyone. If I'm saying I like Porsches without luxury items etc. no one should take it personally. There are lot of (and I mean a LOT) Porsche owners who prefer their Porsches soft while I prefer them hard,but those peole should not be offended by that, if they are, well, then they just are. But I have to repeat myseld again for one more time, those TSB numbers are N O T my opinions, just facts.

Finn, I think you and I agree about something...all P-cars are cool. I'll just leave it at that. BL

No they're not! But yes, let's leave this like that.

oh Finn, I know your 993 is the BEST... In fact I'm sure that you are the BEST...

You guys got it all wrong. My friend's brother's uncle's friend's daughter's 914 with stock 200k mile suspension and geo metro engine swap is the BEST .

I agree with you about 993s. Classic design IMO. The good thing about the new model (997s) according to the recent 'Car' magazine is that Porsche will finally lose those 'tears' next to the headlights and make the front look more like 993s and less like Boxsters.....finally. I do like the *** of the 996 and it appears most of it will remain relatively unchanged. For my money, if the 'Car' magazine depiction is true.....than my money is down for the new 997.

You need to relax Brian! My 993 is not the best (there are plenty of Porsches that are IMO way better than my 993 is), and I'm not the best either but I still don't think all Porsches are cool (again, you can relax, since I DO think 996 is cool). P.S. there is no need to become personal, ok?

Finn, you're right, maybe I'm taking this too personally... Your 42 reasons to be in Finland makes for an interesting read... BTW--nice car! BL

Now we're talking! We obviously are both Porsche nuts so...