996-997 Rant

I was up all night at the hospital, so this may be a little incoherent, but something struck me about the upcoming 997 this morning (sometimes I will experience these little episodes of mental clarity after an exhausting night on call ...or maybe I'm just too tired ). ANYWAY, I like what I am hearing about the 997 so far: better engine/ more power, return to classic styling, new technologies (PSM-LSD)...should be a great car and I'll probably buy one. But when I look at the attributes of the 997 and the GT3 I come to the conclusion that Porsche AG did not have the intestinal fortitude to develop the 996 properly. If more emphasis had been placed on performance over profits the 996 would have been a better car than it is IMO. I love my 996, there is not another sports car I would have at this time. All one has to do is to look at the GT3 (Mk1&2) , TT, and the new 997 (hopefully). These cars all have better , higher quality components than the 996. The GT3/TT cars have engines that evolved directly from the GT1/ 993 engine. The GT3 engine should have been the base Carrera engine, a bullet proof dry sump 4V water cooled engine with excellent power, instead we have the M96 engine with its "integrated dry sump". The integrated dry sump is so good you have to perform a $2000 oiling upgrade to avoid oil starvation on the track....and then they void your warranty . There is no reason that the GT3 based engine could not have been mass produced for the 996 series. The M96 is a good engine in terms of specific power output, but not bullet proof and too prone to RMS failures , so ultimately not a reliable track engine. The 6 speed gearbox could be better too IMO. The 6 speed (G96/00)transmission was not derived from the G50, has fewer bearings (2 instead of 3) and has a 1 piece housing. Better yet, it cannot be serviced and the entire unit has to be replaced...WTF??? Of course the GT3 and TT cars get a 6 speed (G96/50/51/88) "heavy duty gear box" derived directly from the G50 unit found in the 993 series cars. This is what the 996 should have for a gearbox. And now it appears PAG is going back and retro-grading the 997 to what the 996 should have been in the first place. So what was the 996, a f**king aberration that we should just forget about?? In conclusion, Porsche AG/ Wiedeking et al, didn't have the guts to give us a 996 that was truly an evolution from the 993, instead we have a car with all new components geared primarily towards maximizing profits. Or maybe hey DID give us what we wanted and they are laughing all the way to the bank . Could you imagine what a hell of a car the 996 could have been if Porsche gave us the good stuff. OK I'm off the soapbox.

Wow. That was quite the epiphany. I agree with many of your points. Let's not forget that Porsche is a business trying to be as profitable as possible. They may be losing sight of their heritage and long term business goals by compromising many essentials such as the ones you've mentioned.

some good points mentioned... but whatever Porsche makes of the 911 we'll keep buyin it... you'll see. cheers Pete

It would be great to see the next 997 using the GT3 engine and tranny... one can only hope....

FWIW I recently uncovered some Porsche promotional videos used for the introduction of the 993, Boxster, and 996 models. When you viewed them back to back, you could definitely see Porsche changing their pitch to appeal to a different market base. Let's face it, Porsches were traditionally designed for no compromise gearheads like us. They stressed their racing heritage and the quick exchange of technology from the racing department to the street cars. This is why you had dry sump lubrication, reconfigurable transmissions, and myriad suspension choices. Form definitely followed function. If it didn't make the car go faster, stop shorter, or handle more g-loads, it wasn't considered. Over time, particularly during the economic shocks of the late '80s and early '90s, the size of the "gearhead' market got smaller. Porsche had to adapt and develop products with a wider appeal. The promo for Boxster stresses "going back to the simple times of your youth". The 996 promo is definitely focused on getting conquest sales from Mercedes and BMW owners. The focus is on luxury with a heavy dose of sporting performance. Both of these approaches were successful. Sales and profitability increased SIGNIFICANTLY. The downside to all of this, is that we gearheads were left behind. It's only with the introduction of such special models as the TT, GT3, and GT4 that they have produced cars that appeal to our tastes. I agree that it would have been great for the GT3 engine to have been the standard engine for the 996, but it simply would have been too expensive to appeal to the wider customer base Porsche needs to survive. My advice is to go after those models that appeal to you. There's no sense bemoaning the waterdowned basic models. They are what they were intended to be..volume models. I'd rather see Porsche sell a lot of the base models and survive, than to offer only the "traditional" models and go out of business. Cheers,

This is a great thread! However, it is worth noting, that the 996 has as much or more performance then it's predecessors. Other then some RMS failures, I believe its reliability has been fine, being robust enough to serve duty on both track and street. I do not believe the 997 will be that different from the 996 (other then retro styling). Has any technical information been made available about the 997? Your points about the GT3 I believe are accurate. And I agree, perhaps the GT3 is the car the 996 should have been, but considering the price points and the lack of luxury items in the standard GT3, Porsche was correct in delivering the 996 as this is what the masses wanted.

billatlanta, I agree with you 100%... Porsche is running a business and during the times of the 993 the company was in trouble.... the boxster and 996 pulled them out of that slump... I'd love to see a Porsche sedan... I know I know... the purists will hate it but then they hate everything right? it's called the "evolution" of company and its products...

I wonder how much it would have really added to the cost per unit to mass produce the GT3 powertrain. Substitute forged steel in place of titanium rods and start cranking 'em out. Even if, and it's a huge if, it increased the price $10k per unit I and many others would have no problem with it. I doubt PAGs margins are so narrow that they would fail to see a profit. Doesn't' it cost something like $50K to build a TT, the rest is gravy. I think Jerry Seinfeld said it best, when someone asked why he admired Porsches so much, his response was he was amazed with the "mechanical density" of the 911. "All that technology squeezed into this little car". I think a bit of that was lost on the 996, especially when I see loaded up plush-mobiles on the dealer lots. I think the standard 911 should have all the performance options as standard equipment, if you want to soften it up then you have to order it that way. (I guess that's why I'm not running Porsche hehe). But as someone said, I/we will keep buying them.

I agree with you Bill but I believe the thread stated that Porsche "skimped" on the 996. There is no question of the increase in performance but what happens when the tranny goes or the motor goes? No rebuilding there. Although we are encountering the dreaded carbon build up issue in our 993's, I do not believe there was ever anything catostrophic to require an engine replacement when the 993 was introduced like with the RMS and 996's. Only time will tell if the 996 is robust enough.

Doug, I totally agree with you, that's how 996 should've been in the first place. IMO Porsche wen't too far pleasing & fetching luxury BMW/MB customers. Pete, In which way Porsche was in trouble between 1994-1997?

DJ996: Besides the higher component cost of the GT3 motor it's also much more labor intensive to assemble. How much that factors into the price differential I don't know but Porsche was definitely looking to reduce build time when they designed the 986/996 platform and that applied to the M96 engine design as well. And I doubt the turbo only costs $50K to build as a replacement motor for the GT3 runs about $35K. Which I believe is more than a $20K delta from an M96 motor.

I think that this is a really good thread for another reason... it kinda shows how we can get so wrapped up in the pursuit of "perfection" (whatever that is) regarding our cars, that we start picking out the cherries from the plums. This isn't a bad thing, just human nature. These cars kick much a$$, no matter how you slice it, no matter which model. Is there evolution from past models? Yes. Are the present cars superior in build quality, power and performance? Yes. Are there some issues that likely should have been rooted out during design and test? Yep. Are they overpriced? I don't personally believe so when you look at what the competition offers, and how much similar P-car models cost ten years ago. Would I like to pay less? Of course, that's the American way. Will the next models further those trends? Hell yes. Will owners continue to lament cost vs. performance vs. PAG corporate philosophy? Undoubtedly. I leave for Stuttgart later today to pick up my new TT Coupe on Friday. When I was at PDE last week, I was so impressed w/ the stock Carrera's performance on the track that I could not help but wonder how much better the TT will be (and for a nanosecond, why was I bothering getting more than a Carrera? a really tiny little nanosecond ). The performance was truly fantastic in every aspect of the driving spectrum. Man, are these great cars!!! fwiw...... Jeff

Although I'd like to see a harder edge come back into the 911 line, I like the fact that I can drive my C4S comfortably every day, in all conditions. I wouldn't be able to that with a GT3.

Porsche AG was in dire straits 94 - 97. While the decisions that led to today's profitability had been taken, the results had yet to happen. The scrapping of the 928 and 968 lines and the rebuilding to handle the 993 & Boxster (which were both built on the same production line) were a cost that simply wasn't covered. If these products had not sold, PAG could not have covered it's bills. Dealers/Distributors and Suppliers all had payments drastically reduced - in the hope that the business plan would work. It was quite a gamble, and we forget how close PAG was to getting out of the car business all together, and how the entire PAG car business was "bet" on the sales of the 993 & Boxster. On 996 vs 997, be aware that the 996 was a complete break from the past (production, materials, components, outsourcing). Rather than think in a progression or linear fashion, think 911, 964, 993, then a break to a different "branch" to the 996. The 997 is a combination of 996 with now a return of some "pre" 996 concepts. This is due to the fact that PAG now have the time & resources to better integrate all of the "new" in 996 with the "familiar". Sorry for the bandwith use, J

Cup holders????

I love my 996 like crazy, but one thing I hope Porsche does better with the 997 is to improve the sound. The 993 at idle, under acceleration, and with blipped throttle sounds so so wonderful - better than the 964 I think. When the 996 was introduced I thought that it would bring with it a similar transition to a more mature sound that would eventually grow on you. Sad to say that it hasn't. IMO the sound is not in the same league, or as 'together' as the 993 if you know what I mean. Not sure if anyone here agrees but even the boxster/S has a nicer sound than the 996. Sorry to go on about this but I feel that even with exhaust modifications the 996 is only able to produce a sound that is louder, but which doesn't quite set it apart from other cars (i.e. can be replicated/copied?). The 993/964 is unique in that respect. On day to day normal road driving where the handling and performance of the car cannot be fully exploited (by most people - me especially) it is so important to get the sound right in a sportscar. If i appear obsessed by this it's because I probably am! (don't get me wrong, I value the other virtues of the car like the reliability, useability etc - too much to list) just my 2cents worth. 01 996C2 tip coupe

Jeff, take some pics when you pick up that TT. Should be a heck of a fun trip . BTW I agree that the 996 is an awesome performer, mine does everything I ask and more at the track. But, when I see the GT3 powertrain there is a clear line of evolution from prior 911 that is missing, to some extent, from the 996 powertrain. I'm not saying they should have kept air cooling, quite the contrary, high specific power output requires 4V and water cooling, and that can be done with their traditional architecture as is shown with the GT3/TT. I can see where a GT3 or a TT engine would need special attention during the assembly stage. But say for the sake of argument, the base 911 does not have the forged pistons and titanium rods like the GT3, could not a "regular" engine be assembled in a reasonable amount of time assuming it used the same design. I would think so.(Which may well be what we see in the 997 ).

I have to disagree with what was said 2 posts above this... if you get a Porsche Sport Exhaust.... the 996 sounds amazing!... doesn't have the raspiness of a 993 but the sound will definitely get your attention... makes the stock 996 exhaust sound like a blender. The PSE is the best sounding exhaust (IMHO) and I've heard lots of them like RUF, Techart and Fabspeed... when the PSE 996 winds up... your like holy s*** what was that that just went by... cheers Pete

This was from a thread in the 993 board but probably sums up your "rant" DJ996: just read this for the 993 article in the latest porche world magazine --- the article ends like this. "but most of all this was the last 911 that refused to compromise. it was a thoroughbred that was expensive to build and still couldn't persuade mercedes drivers to switch. this was the last 911 that made you adjust to it, rather than itself adapting to it's users, and it never lets you doubt who in the partnership between man and machine should have the most respect for whom."

That quote is from Peter Morgan. Last year he put out a list of the 100 best Porsches of all time. The 996 C2 was second to the winner the 917. The first 993 on the list was the C2 at 11th. I think people are reading more into the quote than is really there.

This is an interesting thread. I am a big fan of 996. Better day to day proposition. Feel safer taking the kids out in it. However, here are a couple of points: 1. in making this car appeal to SL500 drivers, the corollary must be that some 996 drivers will be attracted to MBs 2. one element that I find appealing about 911s is the rear seat. (Can just about argue that a family car.) Why can't they manufacture GT3s etc with this option? After all they made a 968 Clubsport - which was basically a Club Sport made liveable. Spizz

996C2, C70pete is right. if you install PSE, your car will sound very very very different. you can get it fairly inexpensively from various sources, but even at the exorbitant $2400 the factory demanded, it's well worth it. if you can pick only ONE option on the 996, PSE would be it.

I believe PAG is listening. Look at all the variants of the 996 that are available now. If the GT3 was available in MY00 - I bet you would have gotten it Doug. I've finally like many of us) got my car the way it should be, PSE, B & M, and RoW M030. Most new P-car buyers are unaware of the shortcomings of the 996, they'll never know and they'll never care. It's only through coming to these boards that I've learned how spending a few grand can turn my 996 into a completely different animal. Most of us don't track our cars to the extent that we're running modified suspensions, R- compounds, on looping carousels and need the the oil kit. I haven't heard of that many transmission failures. The RMS problem is another issue, but the 993s had the wire harness problem, etc. I love my 996. I may never to be able to afford ( justify the cost) of a new P-car again, but I hope the 997 continues the tradition of handling and reliability over horsepower and luxury. That's the way the 911 has defined itself and the way I hope it continues.

In defence of the 996 if you compare it to other cars in the same class it's still an amazingly configuragble car. Just look at the full order guide it's 45 pages! What other manufacture offers that level of customization? The fact is that what ever people may say about the standard 996 gearbox and the grade of components used throughout the car they are still significantly better than their competitors. With the exception of some 100k+ exotic cars what other company offers factory installed sports exhaust, power kits, rock hard suspension (bmw sports suspension is a joke). The only issue i have with the 996 is power. I know this topic has been beaten to death and at first i just let it go even when the 500 hp SL55 came out I ignored it. But now the M5 will have 500+ HP the CL63 will have 612 HP, Dodge viper is at 500+ HP. I just can't ignore the fact that there are so many other sports cars out there that now have DOUBLE the HP a 996 has. You can brush aside some cars with 100 or so extra HP and claim that Porsche handels so well that it doesn't matter if an E55 has 460 HP but now is more than double. It's come to the point where it doesn't matter if the 996 handels better and has such a long history when soccer mom cars have 500 to 600 HP and they are 10 to 20k cheaper. I think the 996 is a victim of it's own hertige because they can't play on the same feild as competitors who can put supercharges and large V8's. Porsche has to stick to it's FLAT-6 configuration and it's evolution has been exhausted over 40 years.

Spizz, With all due respect but GT3 is not about that. When you start adding rear seats, the sunroof next guy wanted, bling bling this, bling bling that and you're as heavy as rest of them, look like a pimp mobile and there you go, you got yourself a cruiser/pimp sporty car, not track/mountain road sports car as it is, and damn right should be! There are ton of models in Porsche line up with 45 pages of options (OMG) as Keyvan said so I'm sure everyone should find their model somewhere else and as this is Porsche's only real track oriented 996, let's not ruin it! OK?

From my point of view, this thread is dead-on. Which, unfortunatly, means that I'll stick with the 993's until I can afford either a 996TT, GT2 or GT 3. I love 993's , but have always loved the look of the 996 (just a personal taste). What I would like to know, however, is in what MY did the 996 "teething" problems stop (i.e., rear main seal, etc.)? And, is it cumpulsory to add the extra oil plumbing to all non TT / GT 3 996's?

The oil starvation problem was noted only under three conditions: slicks, high G's, and the 3.4L engine. Reportedly with the advent of the 3.6L engine, it is no longer an issue. There is a quote from Porsche, I can't rmember the source for the moment, that the 3.6L will stay fine with over 1G. The extra oil plumbing is only for the 3.4L engine.

Thank you very much.

One downside to the 996 that seems to have not been mentioned is resale value. It seems pretty soon 993 Turbo's will be bringing more money than their 996TT counter-parts. It's good for people like me who hope to actually get a 996 in the next couple of years but bad for the image and the current people who own them. I do hope the straight coupe 997 can bring back some of the wow/sexyness factor the 993 had.

That's not entirely the case, the 3.6 is not completely immune from oil starvation either, though it is much improved over the 3.4. As a matter of fact, the 3.6 X51 includes the same oiling kit as found on the 3.4 X51 engines and 3.4 Motorsports kits. This includes a new 4-6 side oil extraction/suction pump and suction tube along with new oil pan with aluminum partition/baffle. These are not found on standard 3.6L engines.

My 993 is better than your 996. No! My 996 is better than your 993! Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

993 guys, don't think of the 996 or 997 as the new 911, think of it as simply a new Porsche model - you're more likely to accept. The 911 is dead! Long live the "911" - until the next model.

Even with the GT3, I still love the 993TT for its classic looks and raw feel. I'd buy another 993TT before a 996TT myself...

ADOGNY, agree with you 100%!

996 rocks!!! 993 is an old dead dinosaur!!! 997 is not a true 911 since it is not a flat6 (or whatever they will change)!!!! Ummmm....gotta go get some more beer

Palting, ever own a 993...?

I'd like a white GT3 please. (just asking)

Ok, Here is my take... I am a bottom feeder. I cannot afford most of this but I am so hooked it is not even funny. I have my MY99 996 and it has 6spds and a sterring wheel. For the relatively small amount I paid for it used after someone who was a street/huggy/kissy diaper washing type had it (I am glad they were don't get me wrong) I can say only this. Uh, for the money today I paid for it I am very happy...someone ate monster deprecaition to enable me to own this fine automobile for a payment south $550 a month. I would like to thank my credit union for 3.95% financing for 60 months on a pre owned car less than 4 years old or less. I thank the person or persons who paid about $65+k for the car and ate that depreciation.. as well as taking such great care of my 18k mile car. I drove it on the track a couple times already and take extreme care of the car to make it last as this is easily one of the nicer material things I own. It is docile on the street... gets decent MPG .. starts and runs every time... performs great on the track .. it is the first car I can run at the track with stock pads and rotors and not worry about fade or getting a new set of pads so often... If you are not happy with the car... I am sorry... you have to pick your moment... I cannot afford a new GT3 or I would be out kicking peoples butt on the track in one right now (smile) instead of just picking on people in their unsuspecting 996TT (haha) Love the car... please BUY MORE OF THEM ... you make it possible for 60 hour a week nerds like me who can barely afford such wonderfu things as this car to have , love, and drive them... I thank you all... (sincerely)

Amen to what Doug said about thanking the guys that buy them and then don't drive them. I love it that they eat the initial depreciation and never really even drive the car. I am smiling ear to ear as I rack up 15,000 miles or more a year. I have benefited from that in my '95 993 and now in a '00 996. In two years I will be looking for someone's 2002 or 2003 20,000 mile garage queen. One thing to note about Porsches and pricing is to look at it relative to wages. If you want to compare prices over time, convert its value in how long you had to work to pay for it. In 1972 I was able to buy a second hand 1970 911T Targa for half a year's pay of a college graduate just starting out. In 1974 I was able to buy a brand new 911 for roughly the equivalent of one year's salary of an average college graduate. Not an easy thing to do, but still within reach of someone that really wanted a Porsche. Today it would take 2 or 3 years of salary for someone just starting out, probably out of the question for most people at that point in their life. And while today's Porsche is light years ahead in performance, the gap with other cars is still the same. So relative to other things there has been some major inflation in how Porsche is selling cars relative to everyone else.

I just got my first Porsche last week. A 2002 C2 sports exhaust, rigid , short shift and the GT3 aero kit. It is the best, most fun car I have evered owned. Today I find out it is a POS. It is still better than the BMWs.

Roberga, I'm right with you. Bought mine 3 weeks ago. First ever, and waited a long, long time for it. It's all a matter of perspective. Some models may be better than others, but these cars are all in a different league. I'm reminded of it every day I drive my new car and think about all the other cars I've ever driven. Best POS I've ever owned!

Something to consider when discussing this topic or others of this type: People will get bored no matter how good it is! I recall when the Acura NSX came out. Every single magazine praised it for it's unbelievable comfortable seats. This applied whether you were 5'4" or 6'4". They were supportive, comfortable, nice to look at etc. All this and (from memory) had only 4 different adjustments! The cadillac seats with 14 adjustments got nothing but complaints. Now....if Acura created the holy grail of sport car seats why in the world would they ever change the seat? Because we get bored. That's why the 993 is gone and the 996 exists. That's why the 997 will be the new thing. You can never go back. Unfortunately, there are way more regular buyers who want the luxo items and want to see something new on the showroom floor than us gearheads. That said, I think Porsche should always offer something for their loyal purist customers. I definately look for evolutionary cars that have an emphasis on functionality and are void of luxo items. But if Porsche still had the 993 on showroom floors, and it had 400 h.p., Turbo brakes, GT-3 seats etc. and was plain and simple just the way I like it, we would all probably be bitching that the 911 was getting stale.

Palting, I wouldn't go that far to say the 993 is an dead dinosaur. It seems the 993 value is doing pretty good these days. Yes the 996 is a little lighter, torsionally stiffer and less expensive (I say less expensive because if you scale up MSRP every year, they would MSRP for much more than previous models). My '95 C2 is pretty impressive at the track given its original suspension and age. Not a old dead dinosaur yet

Hi, Doug! I've been sent over here from the 993 forum to say: Uh... Duh? (Rennlist PC disclaimer: love the 993, wouldn't buy a 996, but the GT3: SCHWING!)

Hey Robert, this is a really old thread someone brought back to the top. Even though I love my 996, my first new Porsche, it still could have been a hell of a lot better IMO. See you at the track, make sure you let me pass on the straightaway LOL. Some of the local wasser pumpers are taking a little drive early tomorow am, e mail me or RJ for the route if you want to join in, the more the merrier. We'll try and slow down for the air cooled guys.

Not after I help you adjust your tire pressures! I'm helping my sister-in-law with her new computer tomorrow a.m., can't make the drive, sorry! You guys doing anything for the Super Bowl?

I think RJ is having people over at his place, We'll stay home as 5-7p is the worst time of day for the kids.

I find it funny at how many 996 owners complain that Porsche is straying from its racing heritage by under-engineering the 996. I just traded in a 2003 e46 M3 for my first Porsche, because I found the Porsche to be a much better sports car. The 996 is one of a small group of cars that can be driven daily to work and then to the track without missing a beat or beating up its driver. Cheers to Porsche! I'll never return to BMW, because the M3 is going in the wrong direction.

Early, you've got a reasonable point - the BMW gets heavier & heavier, while the 996 is actually lighter than the 993 & stiffer. OTOH, all the other issues w. the 996 still apply: fragile/disposable engine/gearbox being the primary complaints.

old thread but great thread....you guys know you s#!t!!...i love this board! dito...i smile a ton when i drive....and to those guys waiting for someone to turn in a lightly used perfect condition 996 in a few years...do not look at mine!...at leases end it will be in great condition but it will also have 45k+ miles (13 k in the 9 months i've had it and i am heading to vegas in a couple hours!!!!) Vegas Baby