51 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCH997 GT3 RSs experiencing RMS failures
Leading reported evidence
Install under original factory warranty
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
so long as it's got a reman engine installed under original factory warranty.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Unsuccessful attempt
I have an '04 C2 purchased with 24k miles that had the RMS replacement done as a part of the CPO, the car now has 28.4K and after reading this I checked the oil once again. Still not down even by 1/2 qt.
Leading evidence: 'Install under original factory warranty' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'latest seal' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check oil' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 1 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Replace many unnecessarily, as you probably know) and the fact
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The reason the 996 is the Rodney Dangerfield of 911s is a combination of it being the first departure from the original formula, the overstated number of engine failures (Porsche replaced many unnecessarily, as you probably know) and the fact that many people bought them who were not dyed-in-the-wool Porschefiles (Just under twice as many 996s were made as 993s).
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
only one of them had a RMS and engine was replaced.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Check oil
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
1
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that report an unsuccessful attempt
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Unsuccessful attempt
I have an '04 C2 purchased with 24k miles that had the RMS replacement done as a part of the CPO, the car now has 28.4K and after reading this I checked the oil once again. Still not down even by 1/2 qt.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
Not helped, incidentally, by Porsche's earlier policy of replacing entire motors in some cars that had leaks, which made it all seem so dramatic to people who didn't know much about cars.
Replace many unnecessarily, as you probably know) and the fact
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The reason the 996 is the Rodney Dangerfield of 911s is a combination of it being the first departure from the original formula, the overstated number of engine failures (Porsche replaced many unnecessarily, as you probably know) and the fact that many people bought them who were not dyed-in-the-wool Porschefiles (Just under twice as many 996s were made as 993s).
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
51 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261026T152433Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
The new 997 GT3 and GT3 RSs are experiencing a large number of RMS failures judging by the number of owners reporting the problem. I wonder if this will sink their value like it has with the 996. Granted other factors are at play with the 996 such as oversupply but who knows.
All we need is someone to loose an engine(and post about it of course, which they undoubtably will) and these cars will depreciate faster than sub-prime lender stocks. LOL
I just may be able to buy one of my dream cars, the 997 GT3RS, next year for about $50,000. LOL
P.S. I am not holding my breath.
RMS is a relatively small issue. At $1k each to fix, it's not going to deter porsche owners to get one, if this is indeed a problem.
Didn't know that the GT series engines have RMS issues. I thought it was largely on the NA 997(S) and 996. What is the source of this? Hope it's just rumor....
RMS had nothing to do with 996 depreciation. 911s before it had much scarier problems. The reason the 996 is the Rodney Dangerfield of 911s is a combination of it being the first departure from the original formula, the overstated number of engine failures (Porsche replaced many unnecessarily, as you probably know) and the fact that many people bought them who were not dyed-in-the-wool Porschefiles (Just under twice as many 996s were made as 993s).
As far as the 997s go, I just have to wonder how many of those cars are low mileage toys and 'collector' cars. Porsches don't like to sit, and it's inconceivable to me that Porsche wouldn't have solved the basic design problem by now.
The source are several threads which have been started on the 997 GT3/GT2 message board. Sorry but I am not sure how to post a link to other threads.
Given the extremely small number of new GT3s and GT3RSs in the U.S., the amount of owners experiencing leaking RMSs shows there is still a problem for Porsche with this issue.
I agree with everything you have said except for your statement that "RMS had nothing to do with 996 depreciation." The fact is RMS has had a lot to do with damaging 996 resale values, albeit undeservingly IMHO. If you search the internet for info. on the 996 you will find tons of scary stories about RMS problems with the 996. You cannot tell me that the proliferation of these stories has had no effect on the values of 996s. If you read some of these stories you will find that many people associate the term RMS with engine failures because Porsche did so many unnecessary engine replacements due to recurring RMS failures on some engines. Granted some of these swaps may have been necessary in the rare instances where there were manufacturing defects with the engine itself.
Look, my point in posting this thread was that the RMS issue for 996 cars has been and continues to be totally blown out of proportion. The fact that it is now happening to 997s, 997 GT3s, and 997GT3RSs only proves this point. These cars are not defective or disposable simply because some cars have RMS issues. I only hope that this thread can be an end-all and be-all to the RMS issue for the 996.
Of course, we all know this will not be the case.
True. Many of them on this forum and others like it. I actually agree with your point, here. I've argued in the past that all this hair pulling and teeth gnashing about seals is ridiculously overblown and damaging to the reputation of the car. Not helped, incidentally, by Porsche's earlier policy of replacing entire motors in some cars that had leaks, which made it all seem so dramatic to people who didn't know much about cars.
"Dreaded RMS"? Please.
Let me see here. RMS went out on 2 of my cars over the last 20+ years of Porsche ownership. If you are not leaking oil...it's not a Porsche
OR buy a Ferrari for real maintenance FUN
A lot of people who buy these cars think they are just like their first Honda....just faster and better looking. NOT. Expensive europeon sports cars are expensive europeon sports cars to maintain and Porsche is one of the least expensive of the lot. Either get in...or get out but all the whinning and crying doesn't change a thing and never will in my lifetime. Or has anyone noticed this?
Here is positive report on RMS failure. I have an '04 C2 purchased with 24k miles that had the RMS replacement done as a part of the CPO, the car now has 28.4K and after reading this I checked the oil once again. Still not down even by 1/2 qt. When I test drove the car the smell of burning oil from outside of the car was very obvious. I had read about the RMS and the smell had me debating the purchase for well over a week. But, I REALLY wanted this specific car, it just "felt" right to me. So I justified and rationalized, re-called how my old '68 911 used to push oil all over the place and how the smell was even inside the car. Plus, this one was CPO - so what the heck - I figured I could deal with it.
To my surprise the burning oil smell was gone in less than 500 miles of driving, I spoke with the service manager at the dealer and he looked up the RMS repair. He told me I should have no worries as it was the latest seal with an additional alignment tab AND upgraded and additional mounting bolts.
So, I own an example of a successful repair with a so far non-recurring RMS issue. Oh, and yes, the car is driven daily and it does see near red line revs on a regular basis.
I think the 997 RMS issues are with the GT3, RS variants, but so far not the turbos.
I wish Porsche would figure it out and fix the cars up front. There is not excuse for any 2007 car having rms IMHO.
JB
I agree with your post. No car is perfect since every car is man-made. And man is not perfect. Even a Honda Civic has flaws. Our Civic back in 00 had a busted transmission after 3 months.
I agree... with the two choices: 1) continue owning it or 2) stop whining by getting rid of the car. Pick one.
i agree with bruce. not enough people know or care enough about "RMS" to impact the typical depreciation curve of an automobile and in our case our first shot at watercooled 911s. it's nice to point out anecdotal pieces as to why, yet the fact of the matter is, there are way more 996s/997s made than any of the aircooled cars before it.
do i want a 993? sure if it's a heavily optioned 993 turbo with ruf aerokit and adjstable coilovers and nice bbs wheels... otherwise, give me a watercooled carrera any day of the week... so long as it's got a reman engine installed under original factory warranty.
The RMS failure linked to depreciation is a farce. Would you pay less for a car that had a new clutch in it? No. It's the same process to replace the RMS to do a clutch. It's not like you have to crack the engine open to do it.
My friends 996 GT3 had the Front Main Seal (FMS) leak and need to be replaced. Now that is a bitch, drop engine, remove accessories, etc. However still probably enough of an issue to lower the value of the car.
Bottom line, if you want a car as reliable as a toyota or honda, buy a toyota or honda. I just get excited when I look at my car sitting in the garage. The styling is so flippin' cool!
It's more of a love affair people have with these cars, you can't always explain it.
AA
GT3 models use a different breather system and the seal may leak if the car sits around for long periods, drive it and leaks usually don't exist.
The new(est) Porsche seal, replacing the intermediate housing and the updated engine bolts seem to have resolved the 996 RMS issue in the main.
OK, stat guy, i just did a search. many links. you could have done the same.
7gt3 RMS leaks.
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/353166-997-gt3-oil-leaks.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
6gt3 RMS leaks.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...light=rms+leak
there were 41 threads regarding RMS leaks and the 6gt3.
not anecdotal. is this a good enough sampling for you dell? some have had their RMS changed more than once.
i think you have a drinking problem dell, you keep hitting the bottle
look at the value of 6 gt3s today. hovering around 70~80K. that's after 3 years of depreciation. don't think it's gonna happen as quickly for the 7 gt3 because of the effing dealer markup. dealers have gotten wise and marked up their allocations. if you were in it early, you could have gotten a 7 gt3/RS for sticker price.
+1. not many people, short of being porsche enthusiasts, know about RMS. there are HUGE numbers of 996s out there. too much supply and you've got yourself a quickly depreciating asset.
Actually that is exactly ANECDOTAL!
I'd be happy to let you take my stats course in the spring gratis to enlighten on the rudimentary concepts in statistics
There's a little something we like to call sampling bias that has been ignored.
ps. look up what an availability heuristic is.
dude, i have taken a stat course. waay to dry for my tastes, fell asleep several times
besides, there were never any cool chicks in those classes, lol. that's why i stuck with the art classes
kidding aside. i used anecdotal as hearsay. those threads i posted were of people stating that they had RMS leaks on their car. my "stats" are anecdotal as i am not collecting it "scientifically" but these people's RMS accounts are not hearsay.
i just wanted to point out that there ARE a lot of RMS leaks occurrences on the 6 and 7 GT3 but don't really care what it means statistically.
At ease "dude".
Well in my course, I do get the "hot chicks" b/c they have usually taken my intro course first and of course want me again
What you have done though is generalize to the RENNLIST population NOT the 9X6/9X7 porsche owning population. Not saying that the samples you have gathered are not valid, but rather they are restricted to the community from which you procured them.
By the way, stats may be dry (I agree at times) but for some demented reason, I absolutely LOVE my work. And that is what makes me never called heading up to the university "going to work" but rather getting to do what I love and get paid for it.
Now if I can just figure out a way to do the same with my track addiction. I guess I need a time machine and start at a younger age.
ps. can you operationally define "a lot" as in "a lot of RMS leaks.....on the ....GT3...."
hey dell, i am chill, just ribbin ya... no i'll intent if you have taken any. i really didn't find stats THAT dry. i did ace that intro class but quickly knew it wasn't for me.
i hear all your points loud and clear.
btw, there's a big difference between "cool" chicks and "hot" chicks.
once you figure out how to get paid for your track addiction please let me know so i can do the same
God knows you need it just as much as I do
We are sick, very sick individuals. I don't think there is a cure for Porscheritis with manifestations of TMD (trackaholic and modaholic disorder).
Oh brother!!! Let's get real for a minute. LOL
My original reasoning for posting this thread was more of a joke than anything else. I am just tired of hearing people cry about RMS issues with the 996 as though the car is a POS simply because it has this flaw. ALL CARS have flaws of one type or another. I would much rather live with the RMS issue than some of the issues facing other cars.
I pointed to the 997 GT3 and GT3RS because these too are experiencing RMS issues but that does not change the fact that they are, IMHO, the best 911's ever produced. Nor does it change the fact that the 996 is a great car.
Dell, you need to put the statistics jargon aside for a second and think of this in simple common sense terms. How many 997GT3RS's are are currently in the USA. I do not know the exact number but it is extremely low. Given the fact that at least 7-10 RS owners have reported RMS leaks this represents a significant percentage of these cars, and the 7-10(rough number) only includes Rennlist members who have reported the problem. It does not include, of course, non-Rennlist members or those members who have had the problem but have not reported it. The RMS failure rate for the GT3RS is statistically significant, there are no two ways about it.
jargon aside, do you understand that Carlos and I were playin? This is a frequent thing
As for your interpretation. Do you understand what "significant" means? And as far as "common sense" that is nothing more than a qualitative label. So yes, there are two ways about it. Your way, and the correct way.
Carry on...........
I don't know what you and Carlos have going on. Let me put it another way, I don't care what you and Carlos have going on. J/K
Yes, I believe I know what significant means. Significant means of or pertaining to observations that are unlikely to occur by chance and that therefore indicate a systematic cause.
Let me put it very simply: Let's say there are 150(not sure of the exact number but this is close) 997 GT3RSs in the USA as of todays date and 10 have reported RMS problems. Again, there are no doubt more than 10 as these represent only Rennlisters who have posted problems. Certainly you can agree that this represents a systematic problem.
Do you understand what problem means?
I used to think my least favourite three-letter combos were IRS and PMS.
Seriously, guys, nothing better to talk about? I said it before and I'll say it again: If replacing a $800 seal gets your financial panties in a knot...
Actually, it is anecdotal. Forget the more esoteric problem of sample design for a second and let's just ask ourselves if we can even authenticate those complaints. Crikey... this is like letting one state decide a Presidential election.
Systematic (from memory here) means 'as a system'. Its use in this context would suggest that RMS failures were deliberate and part of a larger plan.
Systemic means 'of a system', meaning the problem is not isolated but rather is a product of the system in which it occurs.
I am a professor, actually.
sys�tem�at�ic /ˌsɪstəˈm�tɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sis-tuh-mat-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�adjective 1. having, showing, or involving a system, method, or plan: a systematic course of reading; systematic efforts.
2. given to or using a system or method; methodical: a systematic person.
3. arranged in or comprising an ordered system: systematic theology.
4. concerned with classification: systematic botany.
5. pertaining to, based on, or in accordance with a system of classification: the systematic names of plants.
Damn, I need a life.
A school with literacy standards. Look the words up, sweetie.
If you're going to get all smartass and sarcastic - "Do you understand what problem means?" - you should expect to get called on your semantics.
when you come late to the party to rehash thing what the hell would you expect. you just wanted to show off your "brilliance" didncha? you sure did a good job of that professor.
Beginning of the name calling? FYI, I quoted the above post.
For how many years and on how many models has Porsche suffered RMS issues? Is this a systemic or a systematic problem?
Oh, sorry, is there a time limit on these things? Last post before I "came to the party" was just over an hour before. Since you've appointed yourself the Rennlist thread cop, maybe you can tell me what the deadline is for posting to a thread before it becomes "rehashing".
And then maybe you can tell me if your manners are any better when you're face to face with someone. Pretty easy to spew that playground rhetoric when you're safe behind your keyboard.
Jeez, too much turkey yesterday, boys?
It is a systemic problem. It would be systematic if Porsche had created a system for the purpose of causing RMSs to fail. It is systemic in the sense that the failures are not isolated anomalies, but rather the result of a flaw in a manufacturing system and thus inevitable.
took stat, did extremely well, but i really dont quite understand it, LOL.
back to RMS. its' a TINY prob. i have 5 996's, not actually 6 996's, two 996c2, one c4s, three GT3's. only one of them had a RMS and engine was replaced. i have on 997RS which had RMS, seal fixed.
if one cannot put up with RMS, they really should not drive porsches and i am not trying to be an asshat saying this. porsches has A LOT of prob.... let me lump all the different 911 series together now. exploding rubber centered clutch, exploding air box, fk'd up valve guides, blocks with no gaskets (what were they thinking), hard to set kinematic toes, self aligning rear toes that makes you pee on yourself with lots of pucker factor, front main seal leaks, porous blocks, CEL in 993's, should i go on?
most of these prob are KNOWN, if you want a porsche you want these prob too. when they fixed all these problems, it will no longer be called porsche, it would be called NSX, GTR and the like.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
