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YOUR RESEARCHDifference between gundo hack and fister D?
Reported or suspected cause
often a cat
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Reported cause
Rattle cause is often a cat that's chunking apart inside...
Leading evidence: 'often a cat' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'often a cat' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Install tips and i'm back in business' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Thanks to a Rennlister (Cuda911) I purchased his set as he upgraded to Fabspeed, installed the new tips and I'm back in business.
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I had both of mine replaced under warranty for that issue.
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While only really louder at WOT, it changed the TONE of the sound significantly, which is what I wanted.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
However, FisterD have loads of experience doing this mod and have tested various size bypasses to come up with what many think is the "optimum"--I've heard a set and they sound very nice.
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However, FisterD have loads of experience doing this mod and have tested various size bypasses to come up with what many think is the "optimum"--I've heard a set and they sound very nice.
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Thinking about having a local muffler shop perform the gundo hack on my 2002 Targa this weekend. Any reason to go with the fister d instead? Seems like the same thing to me, and I think a muffler shop would be cheaper?
The concept behind each is the same. However, FisterD have loads of experience doing this mod and have tested various size bypasses to come up with what many think is the "optimum"--I've heard a set and they sound very nice. They also have a sterling reputation for excellent customer service, and stand behind their work (will your local muffler shop source a set of replacement cans for $1500 if they screw yours up?).
You will need to decide if the slight difference in cost is worth the uncertainty on end result.
By the way I do not own a set of Fister D or any other modded stock cans.
The extra attention to fitment and welds might speak volumes in the future during resale of car or the mufflers themselves unless you know a great local shop with impeccable work.
I would personally do it locally(only because I have my own mig welder
) and I'm a cheapskate
I did it locally cost me 80$ per muffler so $160 all in. Very happy with results. Just took couple pictures of the forums I had and they copied it perfectly.
$1500 a set for stock mufflers? People can't give those things away sometimes. Go for it, worst case scenario go on ebay and buy another set for next to nothing.
Pay the two dollars (old vaudeville routine). In the long run, the difference in price will be negligible, but the difference in quality may not be. I would go with Fister. (and I have)
I believe that the traditional gundo hack bypasses one chamber of the muffler, similar to PSE. It involves welding a pipe between the muffler outlet and the cap on the muffler chamber. The Fister modification welds a pipe between the muffler inlet and outlet pipes, making it a partial muffler bypass.
Has anyone opened up a set of the muffler (specifically, if matters, the OE PSE) cans? I have a crazy *** rattle inside, which I can only imagine is the flap that opens and closes?
I have the OE PSE on the car (without the electronics) and was thinking to have it cut open and simply remove the flap altogether or is there some other baffle that ususally is the culprit (weld broken or the like).
Here's the standard muffler cutaway. A PSE muffler has a bypass pipe and valve attached to the cap shown in the photo. I don't know if there's a valve inside the actual muffler - I don't think there is.
Cat rattling is a common issue. I had both of mine replaced under warranty for that issue.
Gundo hack before/after video below. Not quite as much of a difference as I had hoped, but definitely some more growl. Nice and quite at idle and no droning at speed, sounds like a nice stock exhaust. Overall happy with the mod, and good experience with Joe's Muffler in Los Angeles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJofLkHTpgs
If you bypass like this, you get a quiet ride until you load up the engine, then it makes some noise. You don't even know it is there when you are cruising on the highway.
$100 to $500, depending on if you tell your muffler shop that the cans are off a Porsche
I had mine done for ~$160 in Seattle. I've heard of lower and much more.
Here's a photo of my Fisters during the installation process. I didn't have access to a lift, so I removed the rear bumper cover. I had the "Ceramchrome" ceramic coating applied, as you can see. You can see the bypass pipe between the inlet and outlet pipe in the photo.
I'm still very happy with this mod.
I had the mufflers off and took them to the shop, $80 for both sides. I asked that they made sure that no metal dropped into the muffler as they cut the holes. I didn't want a rattle after this was done.
All the hacks are basically the same... Allow some of he exhaust flow to bypass the muffler. Originally it was done by opening/connecting the unused port on the muffler, then by directly connecting the input pipe with the output pipe. A few different sizes of piping have been used as well.
I think 'gundo' was one of the first guys to write up the mod, and 'fister' has made a decent business out of providing these mods for those who want it.
Most competent exhaust shop welders should also be able to to the mod once they see what needs to be done. Bigger bypass pipe diameter, a bit more sound.
That's a good photo because you can see all three chambers. The exhaust gas enters the muffler thorough the pipe on the bottom and goes into the chamber on the far right. It then exits that chamber through the top pipe. If the muffler has PSE or a gundo hack, the cap in the left chamber by the pipe is removed, allowing some of that exhaust to exit the muffler and go out the exhaust pipe. If it's a standard muffler, the exhaust would go into the final chamber in the middle, and then out the exhaust pope. In the Fister muffler, some of the exhaust is diverted out of the exhaust pipe without ever entering the muffler.
Thats weird... i just had the gundo/PSE hack done on my 02 C2 (knock the cap off and connect to the outlet pipe, not the fister mod), and when I looked inside the muffler before welding the new pipe, there was NO internal 3rd pipe. I was expecting to see one based on this and similar pics, but there was no pipe, just open holes in the baffles. Not sure why.
Its an early 02 (built dec 01), but the inlet and outlet are correct for a mk 2 car.
The mod was quieter than i expected/hoped at idle and at low revs, but it does sound great at high revs.
My exhaust guy charged $100 for both of them, I did the R&R.
That is the picture I took to the shop, the work was done by OZ951 who has a wonderful site loaded with DIY info.
http://www.oz951.com/public/emmy.htm#Engine
Here is his link to what the mod sounds like.
http://www.oz951.com/public/emmypics/PSE1_hack.wmv
Sounds like the small tube between the inlet and exit pipes is a bit louder than using the PSE exit port. Wish I would have done it that way, I used the PSE exit port and wasn't as big of a change as I was hoping for.
Oh, I have had that over the years to the tune of 4 cat replacements during the lifetime of the car. I finally got fed up and needless to say, I will never be annoyed by that part again.
I did the PSE type myself but not loud enough. I then made another hole in that internal "wall or baffle" you can see. Still not loud enough. Next I plan to do muffler surgery and remove more of the wall to get a little more noise. A MIG welder and SS wire is all thats needed.
I also did the PSE type mod, locally, friend who is an expert welder, we used 2 1/8" SS pipe, mine is also an early '02, and there was no pipe under the cap, same as RGrove stated. The diameter of the bypass affects the sound, of course. While only really louder at WOT, it changed the TONE of the sound significantly, which is what I wanted.
Gundo or FD... Just do it!
Not only does it sound good with the windows closed and great with the windows and roof open, but every time I do a PCA driving event someone (usually several someones) tells me how awesome the car sounds.
A friend has factory sport exhaust on his '03 and our cars sound almost identical. Of course he has a switch to turn his off.
I do suspect that my mileage suffers, as I cannot help but double clutch and blip the throttle at every possible opportunity!
I recently had the FisterD mufflers installed. Sounded great but unfortunately due to handling or the additional vibration, the inside weld on one of my tips broke loose and started to rattle. Thanks to a Rennlister (Cuda911) I purchased his set as he upgraded to Fabspeed, installed the new tips and I'm back in business. Sounds great again.....
Slightly off topic, but I've removed my mufflers to send them to Fister. The problem I've run into is I'm trying to remove the tailpipes. The nut/bolt on the is clamp loose, but the clamp is still very tight, and I can't get anything to budge. It looks like the clamp is supposed to spring open once the nut is loose, but mine is so rusted, nothing has moved. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks.
