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YOUR RESEARCHC4S or turbo?
Reported or suspected cause
turbo only issue iirc
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Reported cause
The power steering valve issue is a Turbo only issue IIRC.
Leading evidence: 'turbo only issue iirc' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'turbo only issue iirc' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check 2nd gear pop out during your' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Since the RMS fix requires removing the Transmission it was also discovered that had a 50% clutch disc which was replaced, a not quite failed but failing Air Oil Separator best done labor wise with the Tranny out, a leaking IMS Flange (not the IMS Bearing but the Bearing Cover) which was repaced as a set with the LN Engineering Ceramic IMS Bearing.
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That is one thing that worries me, my car has already had new engine and transmission replaced by Porsche when it was still CPO.
Replace by the mercedes benz 7g-tronic transmission
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It is in the process of being replaced by the Mercedes Benz 7G-Tronic Transmission which was introduced in 2003.
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This is a "disposable" item that needs to be replaced every so often.
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Suggestion
It is a 50k mile car, over maintained , LN bearing, rMS, oil changed every 3500 miles, warmed up properly ,oil filter checked every change, driven as a Porsche should.
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Since the RMS fix requires removing the Transmission it was also discovered that had a 50% clutch disc which was replaced, a not quite failed but failing Air Oil Separator best done labor wise with the Tranny out, a leaking IMS Flange (not the IMS Bearing but the Bearing Cover) which was repaced as a set with the LN Engineering Ceramic IMS Bearing.
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Suspected cause
Recently the spoiler light has been coming on and the spoiler remains up even after I shut off the engine but I think the problem is a switch and not a $2K spoiler hydraulic system.
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Well I have been searching for both for a while..kind of leaning toward a turbo but a low mileage one seems a little out of my budget so that's I thought next best thing..c4s. Is there is a lot more maintenance with a turbo? That is another reason for a c4s if it is a lot more. I have driven both I think the c4s has enough power but it's not a turbo. If you were looking for your 1st Porsche would you buy a low miles c4s or high mileage turbo or something else. Btw I am aware of imsb issue & I'm taking that in consideration..thanks for all the help
I would buy a higher mileage turbo over a lower mileage naturally aspirated 996. The 996 stock turbos are very reliable. It's the modded frankensteins you have to stay from.
I'm handy enough..I have bought a lot of cars but I always went by the lowest mileage and newest you can afford but in Porsche it sounds like buy the best turbo I can afford. The only reason I was interested in a c4s is the one I currently local & one of the nicest used cars I've seen. Most of the turbos are ok but very high in price so I've been looking south.
For what it's worth I bought a low mile 2003 C4S 2 months ago and totally love it as my first 911 and 2nd Porsche prior being an 86 944. I've kept the 2001 Audi S4 as a winter Ski Car and part time daily driver which has dual turbo's (That have developed minor Oil Leaks and are not terminal at this point at 125K miles but failing turbo's contributed to my reason to buy the C4S instead of Turbo since those are not cheap on an Audi S4 or 996 Turbo! and am going to keep driving the S4 to Tahoe trips in winter without replacing the Turbos for at least a few or many more years if I keep the mileage low!). So Anyway the new C4S is a dream come true and is plenty fast enough to get arrested quite quickly at 320 HP thank you very much. Does that extra 95 HP for the Turbo's 415 really matter....sure if you are looking for a 4 second or whatever faster track time to brag about at Thunderhill or Sears Point or Laguna Seca which are my local tracks as reference) but damn a C4S is a very fast car.
I'm a couple year out of practice high performance drivng instructor for open track events and can't wait to get it on the track perhaps with PCA again with this baby but in the meantime have pushed it to the limits on rural highways with no traffic in the Sierra Nevada mountains, coastal highways, and other secret winding roads and it is a blast and is not a slow car at all so my 2 cents is get a Turbo if you have the extra bucks to spend or just get a C4S and can guarantee that you will be very happy as well.
Steve
It most certainly does not matter. However, if you ask me if I would pay $5K extra to get the reliability of a GT1 engine over a M96/97 engine... That is a no brainer to me since a GT1 engine costs over $25K new and a IMS retrofit will eat $2K out of the $5K premium narrowing the gap.
The 996 and newer 911 engines no longer follow the 993 and older product line up anymore. Production and cost designs are slashed to build entry Carreras.
Well the 2 cars I'm narrowing it down to is 04 c4s 32k all service done it's basically perfect all the options for around $39 local I know everyone says it's high but it's that nice & it's begin sold from a trusted mechanic. The other is 01 turbo 36k with nav & CDs changer. It's in NC the best price is $45. Got a ppi all good and 30k service done. Another ? Is a tip that bad I found one local wasn't interested but maybe for right price. And is the year that much of an issue since the c4s is 3 years newer. Thanks for all the input
Either choice would be excellent. They both have upgraded interiors and a nice list of standard features. The additional power of the turbo is certainly nice, but it's not really that usable in everyday driving. On the track - that's another story. The selling point on the turbo is the Metzger engine, as mentioned above. It's one of the best engines that Porsche has ever built. The C4S is a better looking car than the turbo. The lines are better because it doesn't have the air intakes on the sides and the permanent rear spoiler. Additionally, many people consider the C4S to be a very fun and safe car to drive because it has the engine of the C2 but has brakes and suspension that were designed for a much more powerful car. It's a "magical" combination.
I don't think you can go wrong with either choice. I own a C4S and I'm very happy with it. That being said, I may buy a turbo for my next 911 just to change things up.
As for maintenance, they will be pretty comparable. There are a few things on the turbo that need to be addressed that aren't issues on the C4S. Additionally, there are silly things that cost more on the turbo. As an example, the front spoiler lip on the C4S is slightly different than the turbo. This is a "disposable" item that needs to be replaced every so often. The C4S lip is ~$125. The turbo lip is ~$395. I'm sure there are other examples.
If its speed and power you're looking for, I don't think you will ever second guess your Turbo decision. Once you get used to these cars you will always want a little more performance. With the Turbo it will take much longer before you reach that point...then comes a GT3.
If its coming from a mechanic, work out a deal that includes IMS replacement.
He should know thats a reasonable request with these cars and takes that concern out of the equation
Well, my opinion would be if I knew then what I know now my first 911 would have probably been a nice very basic 996. No S. No 4S. No Turbo. Lightly optioned. Cruise, OBC, auto climate control. Done.
My thinking is based on my base Boxster having been a great car over the 11 years and 273K miles and needing relatively little in the way of repairs.
Low cost to buy. Low cost to drive. Low cost to maintain. I mean low cost from a Porsche point of view.
The Turbo has been a good car. Not a great car, though, given the cost of keeping it not only serviced but taking care of the too many in my book things that have gone wrong.
Out of CPO warranty (which ended in June of 2011 with around 60K miles on the car) the power steering tank (and valve) needed to be replaced. $1K. Spoiler: $2200. RMS: $1700. Water pump, T-stat, driver's side radiator fan motor, and front diff axle flange seals: $3900. Couple of batteries. (Not the car's fault, just crappy batteries.) Several flats and at least one flat required I buy a new tire to match the flat tire which was replaced thanks to a road hazard warranty. Now the Boxster has had flat tires too but the Boxster tires are cheap compared to what it costs to tire up the Turbo.
The Turbo now has just over 113K miles.
The Turbo is a nice car. I like the solid feel of the car. I like the extra cabin space. I like the better view out of the car. The power is intoxicating. The Mezger engine essentially worry free.
However, I do not like the higher cost of keeping the car on the road. I know the car's a $120K car but I never dreamed it would have more problems and at a lower number of miles than the Boxster.
The Fins made a great car when they made that Boxster.
The Germans kind of dropped the ball when they made the Turbo. At least mine.
Macaster
Out of your costs outlines above, the only item different from a NA 996 is the hydraulic spoiler which can go bad. All other wear items also apply to 996s so its a poor argument. I would replace $2,000 spoiler all day long instead of calling Jake Raby.
If both cars' DME readout passes with no over revs and the 01 turbo is stock....
An 01 turbo will not have a glove box. Make sure you are OK with just the side pockets. Also check for a 2nd gear pop out during your test drive or PPI. Basically a 2nd gear decel and see if it stays in gear. There is a cheap 2nd gear detent part you can mod from gbox.
Other that that, look for the options and make sure you are happy with them..
Great. That takes care of the biggest concerns. Personally I would like knowing the mechanic that has worked on it, so the C4S is my vote. Plus its a bit simpler to work on without the extra piping of the exhaust/intake. (I am biased though
)
Either way, the decision is a good problem to have
There are other differences. The hypothetical 996 had just RWD. This eliminates the Turbo's (and C4S) AWD hardware. ( I note you have done this to your Turbo.)
The NA 996 clutch system is unboosted and much simpler and based on my experience with my Boxster and my Turbo, better.
The Boxster's clutch hardware is original with 273K miles. The Turbo needed a new clutch accumulator and slave cylinder, though these were covered under warranty.
The power steering valve issue is a Turbo only issue IIRC.
The NA 996 spoiler system is simpler and based on my Boxster experience a lot more robust. The Turbo's spoiler failed at around 110K miles. The Boxster's is working just fine at 273K miles. Well, check that. Recently the spoiler light has been coming on and the spoiler remains up even after I shut off the engine but I think the problem is a switch and not a $2K spoiler hydraulic system.
The Turbo is a nice car but it is a lot of car. This applies to not only the good - the engine -- but the bad: the more complex clutch boost system, the AWD, the spoiler, the fuel system, the extra work to get at the plugs/coils and other areas/regions of the engine for servicing.
Oh, do not forget the Turbo engine has those epoxied coolant hose fittings that can fail and require an engine out to fix (weld).
Given what I know now vs. what I knew then I might have still bought the Turbo, but I might have looked a bit harder for a nice plain jane NA 996 and had I gone this way banked the difference in costs.
Thanks everyone with all the help. I really appreciate it I a moving up from a 07 corvette & I had a budget but I got caught up in the c4s vs. turbo originally I was looking at c2 & c4s in my budget but started looking at cars out of my budget & trying to stretch a little. I buy cars often so I thought the turbo would stop that but I know it will not. I agree I would rather buy a car from a guy I trust. He has 01 turbo but it's a tip I'm not a fan of autos(wife can't drive it) but is it that bad? Thanks again
Macster
This is a thread on C4S vs Turbo. Yes there is a clutch slave accumulator on a turbo that a NA does not have which can go bad. Other than that, AWD components are the same.
Yes the turbo is a more expensive car and will have other little things that may go wrong. The point is that a buy today on a 996 turbo is a better value than a 996 C2. You bought your turbo when it was still depreciating so you ate a chunk of it. There is not much downside on a 996 turbo or a GT3 in today's pricing.
If you buy cars often, then a turbo will hold value better than a C4S and C2 will take the most depreciation. 996 C2 will also be the most difficult to sell. A tip turbo will be just as difficult to sell as a tip C2 if that puts anything in perspective.
Not a bad decision you have in front of you. Keep in mind that either car will need $$$ for general maintenance and unforeseen repairs. If you are stretching your budget to get a turbo with a tiptronic then id lean toward the 4S. The 4S is a loaded wide bodied car that you wont get tired of anytime soon. What color is the 4S? They are very competent on the track as well. The tiptronic would be deal breaker for me.
How many miles on the turbo? Sounds expensive. I know someone who is thinking about selling his yellow/Blk turbo with 8K miles in the low $50s.
Look around autotrader for a private sale around you. Any Porsche dealerships can do a PPI including a read on DME. Just remember to buy stock with good maintenance records. Suspension upgrade is a plus. Engine tune and other stuff may not be for everyone.
the one in NC has 35k miles all stock 30k service done. the local one is for sale by the guy that i trust he has a 01 turbo tip 58k miles for $34 and a 04 c4s 33k new ims rms clutch and all service done for $39
You should keep looking and wait for the right car. There are plenty of 996 turbos and the right one will come up in your budget. Hang out on 6speed online. That is a busier site for 996TTs. Happy Hunting...
^^^
The touring suspension... great for heavy-duty off-roading in Anza Borrego.
And, at least I TRACK mine... see you at Chuckwalla! No, wait... I guess not. See you at Wal-Mart!
Re Tip: I love it. If the car was just for "fun" driving, I'd prefer stick. But for a daily driver, often in heavy freeway traffic, I really like it. The VAST majority of people who say they don't like it have never even driven one. Slide the lever into "M" mode, and it's a great transmission. That being said, many won't buy a car with tip... but not because there's anything "bad" about it, they just prefer to play with their stick.
Check out the differences between 01 and 02 turbos. Also, note that your insurance salesman will want more money for the Turbo, and possibly your state registration and plates depending upon HOW they collect. Those were the reasons I chose a C4S over the turbo. However...now I'm thinking about a turbo again....
An 01 Turbo with 58k for $34k? You'd be a fool not to jump on that. You avoid the manual trans issues associated with that year, get a solid Mercedes built trans that the Mk2 996 adopted, and one of the best engines ever created.
Where is this car located again?
There are no issues related to just the 2001 manual trans. If you are referring the the second gear pop out. It's been reported that it can happen on all the year models.
Where is this car located again?[/QUOTE]
south jersey. he is on rennlist polarporsche.com he has been awesome helping find the right car he did all my ppi so far. just got a call from a 01 tt i looked at acouple months ago all the options manual clean carfax polar silver/grey. they just lowered price to $38,8 with 47k miles the only thing they will not bring it to my guy so i gotta to ppi from local dealer near them. its about a 1.5 hours from my guy
Small world. I looked at the 02 seal gray C4S they had (bottom of their inventory page) prior to finding mine. I work about 15 mins from Polar. Very nice guy, knows his stuff.
Cant go wrong with one from them
Hi again hules98:
I chimed in a couple pages ago saying since I went with the C4S and also really wanted a Turbo but was out of my price range and found an epic deal on a 16K mile 2003 C4S in California that was on the market for about 24 hours and was lucky enough to put a deposit on it on a Monday morning before 5 other people tried to buy it out from me while I was on a plane flying to LA to pick it up. So that is all good but you should be warned about even low mileage cars that haven't been driven can have gremlins that don't show up in a PPI.
My lessons learned story that in the bigger picture have no problem with since got the car for $37K plus tax and license of course which was $9K below Kelly Blue Book from a dealer but here is the reality of what was required to bring even a VERY low mile C4S up to spec:
1. Original Tires were still on the car so $1800 for Michelin Pilot Sports and Alignment
2. Planned upon purchase and budgeted for $1500 "15K" service was really a $2K "60K" Service due to the cars's 10 year old age and mostly consisted of a lot of extra fluid changes that wouldn't have been typically done at 15K.
3. I drove the hell out of the car from Los Angeles thru the Sierra's and up to Lake Tahoe then back to San Francisco after purchasing the car and developed the typical RMS Oil Leak in the first 1K miles after purchase.
4. Since the RMS fix requires removing the Transmission it was also discovered that had a 50% clutch disc which was replaced, a not quite failed but failing Air Oil Separator best done labor wise with the Tranny out, a leaking IMS Flange (not the IMS Bearing but the Bearing Cover) which was repaced as a set with the LN Engineering Ceramic IMS Bearing.
So all that post purchase service and proactive maintenace ran $9K to make the effective car purchase price exactly $46K for a 16K mile C4S that is like brand new.
So after reading your info wanted to pass this on as a cautionary story that just because you get a great deal on whichever car you select be prepared that even with low mileage may have some hidden suprises that can show up even after a PPI.
One other interesting thing I have seen here in California anyway is that there are 2 cars I had seen on Autotrader in late July that I was looking at that are still on the market in the $40K or so range at 30 to 40K miles each and both of those are still for sale after buying my car 2 months ago and both of their ad's on Autotrader have been updated to say that they have just had the IMS Bearing upgraded and Clutch replaced at the same time since the C4S buyer market is knowledgeable and these guys are sick of people who keep contacting them to ask if that upgrade has been done.
Lastly, I know there is a lot of "buy the Turbo" advice here but man all I can say is the C4S is a beautiful car which handles really great fast on winding roads or as a daily driver and a day doesn't pass when I don't get a compliment from at least one random person. I didn't buy this car to show off or be flashy but whatever you choose either Turbo or C4s be prepared for a little more social interaction in parking lot's since is not a "low profile" vehicle to drive around and really only bought it for what it is which is one hell of a sports car to have fun driving!
Good luck and look forward to reading your deciision on whatever you buy!
+996 Big time.
Just look at my sig. With the automatic turbo, you will have some other costs that can be pricy but you can forget about IMS, RMS, Clutch etc.
my c4s engine just went. Diagnosing failure now . It is a 50k mile car, over maintained , LN bearing, rMS, oil changed every 3500 miles, warmed up properly ,oil filter checked every change, driven as a Porsche should. I never thought with my care it would become a statistic and in fact always argued they are reliable with proper care. My car has been commented on as one of the cleanest people have seen- their words not mine - it was a great example. So pissed right now I would reiterate just buy a turbo. Wish I did .
Awe man sorry to hear that hyper. I rebuilt mine at 70,000 due to failure also. If you want some info from someone who has been in your shoes feel free to pm me.
Sorry to hear Hyper, my car is just like yours except in a different color. That is one thing that worries me, my car has already had new engine and transmission replaced by Porsche when it was still CPO. What are the chances of it happening twice?
We should all just get a Turbo.
Sorry to hear about that.
I find myself in a similar situation, living in Toronto with an 03 C4S needing a new engine. I have already researched a bunch of options, if you want any info. After considering all of them, I have decided I am going to ship my car to Jake Raby and have him do the reconstruction work. There are definitely cheaper options, but all of them seem a gamble, and add nothing to the performance of the engine. I think they are only worth pursuing if you plan to sell your car within a year, as you can get a rebuilt with a one year warranty and then leave the gamble to the future owner.
The Jake Raby reconstructions look amazing. And, I am hoping will increase the value of the car. The reason why the 996 car values are relatively low in the first place are due to the weak engines, from what I can gather. Eliminate the weak link and there is no reason why the value shouldnt go up.
Plus, Jake's performance engines bring the power up to 996 GT3 levels, to boot. When the increased performance is factored in, Jakes engines start looking like a bargain.
Anyway, good luck and feel free to PM me if you want to chat about any options.
Very sorry to hear. I also lost an engine in an 04 C4S at 37k miles, meticulous maintenance, frequent oil changes, always clean filter, and good oil analysis. Porsche chalked it up to a failed IMSB but I wasn't convinced then and am still not convinced that this was the true root cause. I didn't have the classic catastrophic failure, the diagnosis was done with the engine still running.
As you were running the LNE IMSB it would be good to know what the diagnosis is in your case. Can you share how many miles on the LNE IMSB?
I also have an 04 C2 ( I would think the model has nothing to do with it) with 81k miles on the clock, also meticulously maintained and running an LNE IMSB since 75k miles.
I actually gave a turbo some thought before adding the C4S, considered selling the C2 and adding that to my cash, but then thought I'd save the Turbo experience for a step up at some later date.
For what's it's worth, my decision would be the Turbo because I "think" it's a more reliable engine. The Turbo is a different engine and doesn't have the IMS, intermix problem... or like was said earlier get the IMS fix done prior to buying the car, or set aside the $2,500-$3,000 now for the possibility of having to make the repair.
The Turbo engine was an air cooled engine that was redesigned as a water cooled engine. I might not have that just right, but the Turbo engine has its origins as an air cooled engine. The air cooled engines were bullet proof...
Wow....Hyper911, Hardback, halo777, and silotwo post's above scare the blank out of me and am so sorry to read this examples of early engine failure on C4S cars and am worried just after was on a great vibe the last 10 weeks since bought my 1st 911. Good luck to all in current engine trouble and you might help us all out by starting new threads discussing your case studies so we can all learn from what you learn and how we might move forward and how much it might cost us in the event of the same misfortune you guys are going thru now.
I will start a new thread on mine. Just wanted to share as I never thought it would happen to me. Best of luck with the decision. The 996 is a far superior car in many ways to previous 911's but the engine shortcomings need to be addressed. They can be address and provide a stout motor, but at a cost that, if you do not already have one, does not make sense.
really? im surprised i would think the opposite. i want to really thank everyone for your insight i know you guys have been asked these questions for years so thanks for taking the time.
Thats bad news, Im sorry but could you please explain what happened?
To the OP: The Tip trans is a real POS. Please look at the design and how it works. You will quickly forget that idea and get the 6 speed. JMHO of course.
Good grief. Another stupid, baseless KrazyK assertion. You don't get to say something like that with an easy out "JMHO" crap. If you're going to help owners / potential owners - stick with the facts.
The 996 Tips come in two flavors - Mk1 and Mk2 cars. Mk1 made by ZF and Mk2 made by Mercedes Benz. The Mk2 Mercedes Benz sourced Tip is probably the most bullet proof high performance automatic transmission in the market. It was designed originally for their AMG cars and Porsche sourced it first for the 2001 Turbo and then used it for all Mk2 Tip 996 cars. It is one of the fastest shifting auto transmissions of its time with a myriad of adaptive programs.
You can have your personal preference for 6 speed, but for many commuters who use their cars as DD (unlike you who bought a 996 to be too scared to drive it) - a Tip 996 is really a great option to consider.
I have to interject, Hurley Haywood saying he preferred the tip to manual.
Taken from the 996 tt tiptronic, later 997 tt tiptronic was faster then the manual. Today the 991 GT3 and Turbo doesn't even have a manual option.
source
there is no cool aid icon
They have their problems as well but the absolute worst case scenario air cooled engine failure would have you getting a top-end job.
I really like the 996 and would love to own a C4S (one of the best looking 911s ever) but sudden "Complete and Catastrophic Failure" leaves me a bit cold.
QFT.
MK2 996 tiptronic was built for AMG cars, it is capable of handling the 2x the power that 996 N/A puts out. Same can't be said for the 6 speed manual.
KrazyK, educate yourself: Mercedes-Benz 5G-TRONIC (also called 722.6) is an electronically shifted 5-speed overdrive automatic transmission. It is in the process of being replaced by the Mercedes Benz 7G-Tronic Transmission which was introduced in 2003. However, all V12-powered cars such as the S600 and S65 AMG still retain the 5G-Tronic, which has a torque capacity of 796 lb-ft.
996 MK2 tiptronic is one the best automatic transmission for high performance cars. Period.
I am more than pleased with my tiptronic. It is lightning quick with shifting, manual mode is great as you can keep both hands on the wheel, and I never have to worry about over revs.
The turbo is a very different car from the C4S, it has quite a bit more charisma and character but also feels slightly less connected and less responsive. Overall though, it's a thrill to own, and feels more special. I thoroughly enjoyed my C2s and C4S as well to be fair but the Turbo manages to feel like an occasion every time. My Carreras never did that for me.
I'm still here I passed on the tip turbo bc I know I'm not the best manual driver but still like it better than any auto. I want a turbo but with my budget I think the cars aren't the cleanest. Rather have a super clean low mileage c4s with all service done than a higher mileage turbo unless I find the right one. I passed on some mostly bc of price. Thanks for all the help everyone.
I think you can find a clean higher mile one. There is nothing wrong with them and market will appreciate 996TTs in time. It can potentially be a zero depreciation play if you buy right.
Just have to be patient and hang out on 6speed. Post a WTB thread there and see what happens.
