Aluminum Guage-Rings - Advice

I want to buy a set of these, as I think it will improve the interior. I have aluminum/CF brake/Gear-shift. Do you think these will look good? If so, here are a couple on Ebay. What do you guys think? Any other brand I should look at? $47 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alumi...22512766QQrdZ1 $100 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...16500719QQrdZ1 Thanks!

make sure you use gel type glue and not liquid..don't want that on your lenses. p.s. how come those aren't on a 996 TT yet they were part of my S package?

Its the same quality and manufacture, I bought the cheap ones, my friend bought the expensive ones that were double price and we compared and they came exacly in the same bags with the same type of glue and everything.

Gant I bought that exact $99 set. My interior is Savannah with the CF. What the trim rings start pulling together is the door latch, brake pedals if you do them, and on yours you already have the silver in with the CF. I switched the shifter to the aluminum ball from TechArt and it really pulled the trim rings together. I give it a huge thumbs up!!

That's the set I bought from the same seller, total $61 shipped. However, there were a couple imperfections on the inside rim/edges of the rings. I guess from the cutting/stamping of the rings, so I used a dremel tool to gently grind off the imperfection (excess) and then buff off to a smooth finish again. Just make sure you don't accidentally scratch or grind the aluminum finish! I haven't seen the more expensive ones to compare, but I wouldn't put too much faith in them either. I think it's worth the little effort to touch up on a little imperfection given the lower price. Then again, I could have just gotten a bad set, maybe they're not all like that. Oh, someone mentioned to use glue...don't. I would recommend using just small pieces of thin 3M double-sided tape, you just need 4 small pieces per ring. Don't use too much tape all around, as that might interfere with the fitment. Glue will make a mess, and might leave stains or be hard to remove if you should need to remove the rings for whatever reason. I'll post pics when I get home, if you want.....

i say do it.... and get the cheaper one...... save the money for engine mods...

get them from eric @ bumperplugs.com OEM rings.

+1 on double-stick tape for install. I first tried the blue-tak putty-like stuff but it didn't hold when the weather got colder. And you don't want glue oozing out onto your guage faces.

depends on the color of your interior... if you have a black interior go for the shiny ones... if you have other aluminum "look" components the cheaper ones will be a better match... I got mine from Eric @ bumperplugs and the paint finish is similar to the cheaper ones and they are a perfect match for my aluminum look interior components...

Talk to Eric at Bumper Plugs. You spent a lot on your car, you should do this right IMHO.

definitly do the mod - it looks really good but understated.

Eric is the man... got mine from him... perfect!

Hey Cosmos, I finally got mine & they seems to look great without having to do anything. worth it for $46. Yes, I use double sided tape & they fit well !!

[QUOTE=arr0gant]I want to buy a set of these, as I think it will improve the interior. I have aluminum/CF brake/Gear-shift. Do you think these will look good? If so, here are a couple on Ebay. What do you guys think? Any other brand I should look at?" I bought mine from Maxspeed. Good supplier, nice simple mod. The double sided tape they come with isn't up to the job, use a thick clear silicone glue but be careful not to overdue it, as someone already mentioned, it will end up on the lenses... Finishes off the interiour rather nicely.

I also bought a set of the 47.00 ones from ebay and they had those small edges that I had to file off. It was easy to do and worth the price. I installed that set on a friends car, but I have them on my car also, but paid 100.00 for mine from Vertex and can hosnestly say there is no difference but the price. I used double stick tape to do both installs. I would go with the ebay cheap set and pick up some double stick trim tape at autozone. JIM

All right, Gant. Here's a closeup and detailed shot of my inexpensive ebay rings. Those of you who have the more expensive or OEM rings, tell me yours is a better quality than what you see here. Please excuse the large pic, wanted to show the details. If you need larger, I'll email it to you! And here's a pic of the overall interior with the gauge rings against a very black interior. I might need to add more highlights or accents. Here's a pic showing the thin-cut tape I applied on the rings. Don't use the whole width of the tape, it prevents complete fit over the gauge rims, and the tape will also "stick" before you can push all the way in for the complete fit. Make sure to clean the plastic thoroughly (of any armorall etc) before installation, and the little bits of tape will work fine.

SWEET! THANKS!! Now the cheap ones are gone off of Ebay... Keep your eyes open for sum $50 ones.

Is there any tutorial how to get the gauge cluster out to install this rings?

no need to get cluster out... you just stick the rings on the gauges... 10 minute job

I vote for the cheap ones too. Mine were $50 and fine, and are held on w/trim tape.

Well, if I have a 996TT, I would buy the cheap ones! Gant, just givin' you a hard time! Either set should work just fine.

Tim, you're out of the will. The rings in this thread are NOT all the same. I can vouch for the rings we sell because we buy them directly from Porsche's oem supplier, and import them straight to our warehouse. They cost us far more than the cheapies are being sold for. There are plenty of knock-offs around. While you're putting the cheap crap on the Porsche, why not buy that $2/gal gas at the shack across town? Just kidding. Hey, if it works for you at $50, enjoy. You get what you pay for. And for these, perhaps it does not matter. I can only attest to what we sell, not what others sell, or claim to sell.

Oh crap!

LOL are you serious? And I thought i had to take out the cluster

I'm hoping I get for $50, what others have paid $150 for. Sometimes you get what you pay for, and THEN some! Nothin' wrong with findin' a deal!!!

That's okay Eric, you can insert me in his place!!

Installing the Aluminum trim rings can be an extremely easy or the most difficult, expensive and frustrating mod you will ever do. This forum has several stories of folks that totally screwed up their install, but many others that had no problems at all. Here are a few tip on how to be the latter rather than the former. 1. No need to remove the instrument cluster to do this job. You can install them in-car no problem 2. Dry fit the trim rings on your instrument cluster first. Because they are such thin metal, each ring can be slightly off and not lay flat on the cluster. If one of the rings does need tweaking, gently twist the ring ever so slightly in the direction needed to make it lay flat. By placing the rings on a flat surface you can see it any one of them needs any adjustment. As a final test fit, put the ring on the instrument cluster and hold if firmly with you finger at the top of the ring. The bottom should lay on the ring just as flatly. BE CAREFUL, and apply only the minimum force needed to get it to lay flat! 3. Use the proper adhesive. DO NOT USE SUPERGLUE! This forum is full of horror stories of folks that used Super Glue, which dripped or ran onto the face of the instruments. This type of adhesive is extremely difficult to remove from the plastic lenses without leaving damage. DO NOT USE MODEL, ABS, OR PVC GLUE! This type of glue works by slightly liquifying the plastic that is being bonded. It has all of the same issues as Super Glue, and worse. It is guaranteed to damage the plastic instrument housing and or lens. DO USE CLEAR SILICONE SEALANT! I highly recommend GE Silicone II sealant. This is available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. in the paint department. It is usually labeled as kitchen and bath sealant. Apply a thin bead of the sealant to the "V" bottom of each trim ring, one at a time. If some of the sealant get on the instrument lens, or oozes out from behind a ring, it will come off easily by using a soft wipe or Q-tip dampened with Isopropyl Alcohol. Hold the rings firmly in place with masking tape. This stuff will set-up in 30 minutes, so it gives you time to properly place each ring. The sealant will fully cure overnight. If the rings ever need to be removed, Isopropyl Alcohol can also be used to release the Silicone sealant and clean up the instrument cluster. USING 2-SIDED ADHESIVE TAPE IS OK. But it is more difficult to work with, getting the tape cut to size and laid in the back sides of the rings can be difficult. Depending on the thickness of the tape, getting an even mounting can be tricky. Adhesive tape can also be more susceptible to release if the surfaces are not completely clean or if the surface gets too hot. This method will work, but it is not as easy or reliable as Silicone Sealant. I'm sure that others may have additional comments on their installation experiences. Lastly, after you have completed your install, sit back and enjoy your work!

Golly gee, "Uncle" Eric, I was only kidding! Really, I WAS!

Orient Express - I love the white gauge faces - are those an OEM option or aftermarket? Is there a preferred aftermarked supplier of these? Stefan

They are aluminum, not white and they ARE an OEM option. I believe part of the Sport-design package.

Bought these http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3932689&rd=1,1 Hopefully there are as good as the $150 Bumper-plug ones!!! I'll keep yaw'l posted.

Gant, explain to me why you would buy the car that you did, then cheap out on something that you look at every time you drive the car. I don't get it. There's a big difference between "OEM fitment" and OEM.

Oreganet, Not sure if you've read this thread. Everyone who got these say they look great, hence the reason for starting the thread. Had people said, I got 'em and they suck, spend more money on different ones, I would have. Maybe you blindly spend more on things cause someone who wants to sell theirs say theirs are better, I see no reason to, since others say these are great. Furthermore, If I get them and they don't look perfect, I will re-sell them on Ebay. Guarantee you I'll get every penny back. Please tell me, am I stupid? OR THE SMARTEST PERSON THAT'S EVER LIVED? Edit: Oh, one more thing. My ethnic/religious back-round may help to explain things. Hava nagila Hava nagila Hava nagila Ve' Nismecha

Hey, I was just seeking to understand. I'm a perfectionist freak, so I default to OEM whenever possible. I read the thread, but "good enough" usually doesn't work well enough for me when it comes to my cars. Something can look great, but if it's out of place, or not in the same style/finish as OEM, then I'm not interested in it. A genuine-replica Rolex is just that - looks and feels like the real thing, but not the real thing. I wouldn't say that either of those apply, are other options available?

I got mine from Eric too.

Me too - another Bumperplug customer. And I used Clear Silicone and did not have any leakage or fall off problems

Mine were attached with 3M emblem tape - excellent fit and hold.

Good thing I'm not a perfectionist, like you. Since I'm not, I thought about just wrapping aluminum foil around the guages. Yea, it would look a little crinkly, but hey, I'm no perfectionist. Just you wait, someday I'll be able to afford the Rolex-rings that Eric sells.. Rejoice, oh happy day!!!!

In all seriousness, cosmos came through with HUGE pics, those things look flawless. So, I'll save the $100 and call it a day. AS I SAID BEFORE, if they are not **PERFECT**, as I AM A PERFECIONIST TOO, but one that likes to get good DEALS also, I WILL NOT KEEP THEM! Hope we now see eye-to-eye!!! ________________________ Oreganet

Hey, each to their own. I'm a live and let live kinda guy.

Ahh, now that's what I like to hear. If everything goes well, I'll post pics for ya.

Personally I think all of them look like a dog's ***...just my humble opinion lol...

I couldn't agree more! I'm amazed that so many people on this board are skimping for some aftermarket product that some even admitted to having to alter once they received them. Maybe it's just me, but I'm embarrased. Get the OEM or get a different car! Not like me to be so hostile, but...

Well stated. BTW Eric, I'll be giving you a call in a couple weeks to place an order for some stuff. Luis in AZ told me to holler at you, but I already knew!

Thanks Ben. I look forward to it. Too bad arr0gant didn't get that memo about our 'rolex trim rings' at 90% off last week. Again, not everything you see on the web is what you may 'think' it is. I won't go deeper than this thread has already gone on this, but you get what you pay for. And I do hope his knock-offs are good in appearance, because they are knock-offs, but if it's just about the 'look' that might work. No biggie.

As long as they are they are aluminum and fit well and they look good and stay on. That's really all that matters. Not sure what else I would want them to do...

Well, as I said, it's important to buy parts that are consistent with the quality, fit and finish of the car. You spent a lot of money on buying a nice car, it's a false economy to put junky accessories on it..... next thing you'll be adding flame decals down the side and fuzzy dice on the rear view mirror. May as well pimp it out properly!

...it all about investing in quality.

Ya Cosmos, how could you!!! You spent all that money on your car and you put those aluminum rings on your car that look just as good, same material and cost $100 less. I just don't understand your logic!!! Oh wait, I have the same logic too. Once again, and hopefully for the last time. If I GET them and they SUCK, I will buy the more expensive one, and EVERYONE WILL KNOW!! Additionally, saving money for me and others on this message board, when doing mods, is one of the reason I am here. As well as getting quality products that look good for my P!!! So far, not ONE person has come forward that bought cheaper ones, and told me not to do it, actually; quite the contrary. Only the people who are just speculating are saying don't buy them. That makes NO sense to me and doesn't do the members here any good. While I KNOW Eric has OUTSTANDING products, as well as being a good guy with a GREAT company, it doesn't mean others can't do it well, also.

arrogant....you are going to lose a lot of HP's with the cheap rings!!! I bought the cheap ones first..and I swear to you I lost about 35HP (dyno graphs available upon request)....so I got ride of them...bought the expensive ones (ON SALE....no I don't share the same ethnic/religious background BUT I am Dutch...so this might explain why we are so alike!). Now with the expensive rings...my P drives like a TURBO!! I think it would have been even faster if I paid full price!! So your improvement from a submarine to a C4S to a Turbo is going to be annihilated. Just my 25cents

arr0gant-- I will be waiting to hear about your experience with the less expensive rings. Hopefully you can post up pictures for us. I am waiting to make my purchase until I hear from you.

Wow! I can't believe you guys can make such a big deal over some aluminum gauge rings! I see how you all judge quality by price...don't deny it now, coz' ask yourselves this, HAVE YOU SEEN THE CHEAPER RINGS in person to compare??? If NOT, how do you justify your comments? I stated clearly that I have not seen the "OEM" ones to compare, so I don't know what the difference in quality is. But you guys are really above and beyond...you can judge quality by price, without even looking at the product. WOW!

Very well said, I could NOT agree more and I think it's sad. Especially after I've gotten pretty much ALL positive comments from the people who got the cheaper ones. The way I interpret it: "How can you buy something cheap for your car, don't you care about it? You must not, you're a bad owner unless you spend more money and give it to to the right person." Give me a fkn break!

Well said Comos !! HAHAHAHAAAA......This is funny...... I get a lot of products & tech info from this forum & some of you have great sense of humor.

Kind of hard to argue with Gant's logic on this one. He has data from those who have the cheaper product that it is of good quality and met their expectations, AND he is open to the possibility that they might not work for him and buying the alleged "better" OEM ones. What is the big deal? He has a chance to save some money on something that really isn't that big a deal. It is a freaking glue on ring for goodness sakes. Either it looks good, or it does not. If it doesn't then he gets the better ones. Geez.

DO NOT USE GLUE!!! I just put them on with double sided tape!!....If you put glue...it is going to be messy, unless you were bulding modelcars when you were younger (or still do)....I think that even the cheap ones will stick!! lol

Hey, this thread ranks up there with 15W50 oil being better than OEM 0W40. You guys have talent. As for me I�m going to order the better rings.

This is pretty funny we can spend this much time discussing these cosmetic pieces...BTW the OEM rings look pretty cheap to me...as with all of the OEM Al look pieces (JMHO). Oh and I use a product called UHU Tac...works like a putty and can be formed to fit anyplace...works quite nicely:

By better, I would assume you mean the more expensive. To me, better might mean, similar quality yet less expensive. I ordered the less expensive ones, if they are just as good, quality-look wise, and I save $100, I will call them the "BETTER" (value) ones. We shall see.....

I installed my cheap rings with 3m tape and it looks NICE!

What�s better is a matter of opinion and your opinion is always right. I would error on the side of caution and stick with OEM if performance or safety was an issue but since it�s a cosmetic item better for me in this case would be about the cost.

Gant - how come you never put an aluminum gauge ring on the periscope of your submarine? That would have been tricked out! Kinda like this!

HAHA, Very funny MF'r! Eddie Murphy - Delirious

Got the rings, put them on, in @ a half-hour. Really, they could not be MORE perfect. Can't understand why anyone would throw their money way after the "OEM" ones. These are top-notch, Grade-A rings!! I guess as long as people want to feel better about spending more money on the same thing cause someone says they should, prices will stay high. If those same people would wake-the-F-up, the competition would be FORCED to lower their prices. Simple free market, economics...

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HAHA, nice - guess I deserved that. Camera is at work and it's too late/dark for pics. Tomorrow, bitches!

We ain't bitches! We're pic ******... well most of us are. I, however, am a pic ****, 'cuz I do it just for the fun of it!

I'm really glad you are satisfied with them Gant! Now...if you ever get tired of them, try selling them on ebay, label them "OEM" and put a BIN at $150. That will surely make it "fit" for a Porsche, some sucker might buy it...

Cosmos, I see a business in our future!!

Pics!! My camera just CAN'T seem to take clear pics. @#$%^&

Gant, I hope you used double-sided tape, coz........... I think.....not sure from the pics.....that you installed the 2nd and 4th rings upside down! Did you check for fitment before installing? It's easy to put them on the wrong side up, I almost did that when installing mine.

LOL!!! I'm such a tool!! Ya, double tape, can reverse 'em, no prob. Thanks Cos!!

And the ring that is 2nd from the right appears to have a 'bend' in it. Not good. If you can move it out a bit before reattaching you should be fine. But of course, our oem versions would look much less 'fuzzy'....

Cos - good catch! Gant - yes they are updice down. Just swap rings #2 & #4 and they will be right side up. BTW - this would not have happened with OEM rings! J/K!

Don't think there's any bends. You guys sell cameras?

Gant, you've got the killer car, now get a killer camera!

I HAVE the killer camera. I think I broke it, cause the pics should be that fuzzy...

There's no helping the camera if the person holding has unsteady hands

Too much booze last nite... Nah, I fixed the camera. Pics should be CRYSTAL-clear, from here on out!!

Well, I was going to say that, but decided to be polite.

And finally, the rings fit even better than before!! Also, the Poineer Avic-D3 project completed.

Looks very good, Gant! (with the right sides up, that is! LOL!) Now it's more pleasing to the eyes, before, something just didn't look right.

Gant - the rings look good now, just like the OEM rings (hee hee). The pics are much better, too. I am sure it was probably "operator error." Now all you need is an upper tray (shelf) to replace the CD holder! Then, and only then, will you have a REAL Turbo!

rings look a little cheap! JUST KIDDING....!!! They look great...love the radio system in the console as well. I think you car will be slower with the cheap rings.....like I stated my P gained 20HP....but you got a turbo so who cares!

They look very good !! I'm going to write an email to autoinnovation (the ebay seller) .

Got the same eBay set and almost did the upside down thing too Oh Well........... I think they are jussssst fine. Any differences would be VERY difficult to detect in my book and anyway as we say in racing, "it won't show from the 25 cent seats!" eric

Tell them they need to lower their price, or they'll lose customers.... Show me their response.

I'm waiting for the response of autoinnovation I want 6 or 7 packs because for my friends and me of soloporsche.com I'll tell you the results

To me it is not about throwing money away or free market economics. I feel that if one is going to own a Porsche, then one should only purchase Porsche replacement parts. Now if one wants to "upgrade" (exhaust and the like) for performance reasons, then aftermarket is acceptable. However, to purchase an item for an aesthetic reason, it seems strange not to want to be able to honestly say it is a Porsche part on the Porsche car!

If someone can do it for 2/3's less cost and just as good, I don't understand your position. These rings are the same quality/look/fit and I saved $100 If you wanna be a kool-aid drinker, by all means, it's YOUR money. Just remember, sometimes companies do it better than OEM.

This is the philosophy that has resulted in the People's Republic of China possessing more than a third of the U.S. currency on the planet. Sometimes, there's more to buying something than just whether it's 'good enough' and cost you less than your neighbour paid. Reminds me of a quote I saw on the wall at an ice cream joint: "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." John Ruskin. He would have bought OEM.

+10000

Ya, I never said I considered price ONLY. If you saw the rings in person, next to the OEM rings, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference! I can't believe you brought China into this argument. You think your cell-phone was made in the US? Or anything you use on a daily-bases for that matter? As long as we have spoiled left-wing Americans demanding hi-wages and unions for low-skilled workers, we will continue to lag behind China and countless other nations willing to truly compete in the ever-expanding global economy.

I like Chinese food.

I was really just making a general philosophical statement in defense of people who choose to spend more. I haven't seen the rings. On the China thing, not that I want to hijack this thread, but... I agree, it's hard to avoid Chinese made products. But to say that they're part of the increasingly global economy is to ignore the important difference between China and most other developing markets: When you buy products from there, the money you spend is going to a foreign government, not foreign corporations. It's a communist state whose purpose is to promote the revolution. (My cell phone was, in fact, made in Taiwan, which is not). Check out the FDA's warning today about Chinese made toothpaste, for example, and you might agree that, even if they're going to join the global economy, it might serve us all to have them get used to the rules first. I'm not so naive as to try to boycott every single thing that's made there, but if there's a good alternative, even for a few more dollars, I'll usually take it.

You obviously know absolutely NOTHING about how the Chinese economic system works and how it's changing, regarding it's public-markets and corporations. American Corporations are the first to benefit when deciding to move satellite plants and factories to China. If you think American Corporations aren't benefiting from China, you need to read more. Anyhow, this is nether here, nor there. This is about someone asking about the quality of the rings, finding out the quality/aesthetics are just as good and to save the money and try them. I did, they are and I saved. Again, if you would rather spend an extra $100 of your own money, be my guest. However, it's nice that this forum is here, so people who care about spending less are more informed and have more choices.

Bit defensive, there, Hoss. That is the kind of unproductive, lame-***, playground-level, anti-intellectual arguing that I just love wasting my time on. What you've just done is prove that it's you who knows nothing about how the world really works. I'm sorry you so quickly sunk the conversation to this level. Must be quite embarrassing for you. BTW, if this forum exists for people who "care about spending less", then I'll cancel my membership. I thought it was for people who loved their Porsches.

Dude, you're the one that brought China into this, I was simply saying, I don't think your statement holds water. As far as being here because I love P's, that's the main reason, it's also to find good quality and deals on parts and services. Also why a "For Sale" forum is here. LOL, hoss. Nice word. Glad I could prove I know nothing about how the world "really" works, when YOU find out, please; let me know.

They told me that 46,99 is the final price bute they did a 50% shipping discount. I�m from Spain (Madrid). I think that there are somethings in which you don't need to pay more than the just price.

To arr0gant: I did the purchase this morning Finally I bought 5 packs for my friends and me. 329,95 $ shipping to Spain included (5 packs)

I am one of his friends

Hi Carlos You're welcome

Well I bought some of the $45.95 Ebay rings & have to say I was impressed. I can't comment on how the OEM looks, but these are right up there. Very easy to intall with a couple of pieces of the 3M double sided tape. I didn't want to risk getting any adhesive on the gauge faces so went the tape route. All in all, dresses up the interior quite nicely. Thanks Todd Couple of pics right after I Zaino'd the car. Looks pretty good

I'm starting to think a consensus is coming together. The competition better lower their prices!!

The aluminum gauge rings and the exterior of your C4S look good!

I received the aluminum gauge rings yesterday morning. I fit them in my P-car and here is the result (not a very good pic ) I think that they have enough quality to cost not more than 47,00 $ OEM rings are very expensive IMO, and I prefer to spend my money in other important things.

They look great!

They really look nice! I think this will be one of my next mods.

Those look great! I went out on the web looking for some today but all I found were some $130.00 ones. Can you help me out and let me know where I can get the cheaper (yet not OEM, but just like OEM with the cost of non OEM made to look like OEM) ones. THANKS!!!

The ones I got came from NR Auto and cost $99 (excluding shipping an tax)

PM jaunkimalo, he has the hookup and is a great rennlister

autoinnovative is the seller on Ebay that I got mine from. $45 plus shipping.

I contact to Autoinnovative by email: [email removed]

These guys don't respond to email. Or, at least they don't respond to mine... I think I will go ahead and get the OEM versions since they make the car faster.

If you read this link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alumi...22512766QQrdZ1 You can see at the botton of the page the email adress of Auto Innovative

I checked with them.... They were out of stock and no date on when they would have more... David

Check with Neal at NR Auto that's where I got mine from:

Thanks Guys I just ordered the rings from NR Auto. Can't wait to get them and install them Thanks SpeedDemon! one more question for you, did you use the supplied adhesive or something else?

I used the Super Glue that came with the kit. The key here is to be careful with it, very careful. You do not want to get any of the glue on the sides. So take your time, they will not come off once you put them in place and the glue has cured. I positioned each ring on the dash first to make sure I had the correct one and that I knew where to place it once I had the glue on the back. I started with the outside rings first as they start over-lapping as you get to the middle. Once you place the ring on your dash, you will need to hold it there for a few minutes while the two surfaces bond. I know others in this thread, and other threads on the same subject, did not use the super glue, and there approach works too. Glad to hear you got them ordered and post pics when installed.

Thanks again and I will definitely post some pics as soon as I have them installed. I also purchased the Alum. pedals so I have a very fun weekend project coming up and will post some of those pics as well - unless I screw something up in which case I'll just say I sold the car to avoid the embarrassment.