It's official, my engine is BLOWN.

Got the word from my P dealer when I returned from being away for the weekend. I do indeed need a new motor. I haven't made the decision on what to do. They quoted me $15,000 which I know is too high. It seems like I've seen on this board a turn key motor job with a reman. motor was between 11-12 K from P dealers. Anyone with any help on this? Thank you. They want $10,100 just for the motor!!! I guess it will also be for sale, sans working motor, if anyone is interested. I will be weighing the decision on putting a motor in myself, but selling it "as is" will be my choice for now. Also, just for sh*ts and giggles I am getting the dealership to offer me a price "as is." PS.....I asked the service person at the dealership if they replaced many motors. There was a pause, a chuckle, and then "Yes, we do replace A LOT of motors." I don't know how Porsche is able to stay in business this way.

Forgot..........my first Porsche, 2000 C2 with 60,000 miles. I've owned it for roughly 8 months and 800 miles. Motor is toast.

I am sorry to hear this! The reliability statistics are nothing when sh*t happens to oneself.

Othomas, Sorry to hear about this. Happened to me last summer. Is your car a tip or a 6 speed?

6 speed

Give www.sunsetimports.com a call and see what they can do for you. I think a crate motor is around $8k from them. Get an indy to install it. You should be able to get this all done for around $10k.

I was hoping for better news even though things were looking bad on your last post I understand you being down on Porsche, it is very unfortunate you didn't get to enjoy the ride for long Hang in there Gl with the outcome

Sorry it went the way it did - based on more recent pricing for motors (which have gone up in the last 12 mths) your quote looks about right. no easy solution to offer - completely understand if you want to bail on Porsche for good.

Yeah I really, really hate it, but I no longer consider myself a customer of the Porsche brand. Toyota sounds much better at this point.

hear you buddy going through the same spot..speak to jeff at sunset good guy they got reman for 8950 US$.He reckonds they are spot on and they come with 2 yr warranty.They have never had one come back!!! Still worrying that at 100K dollar car can replace its whole power plant for 9000 dollars ?? hhmmmmm?

That sucks and understand how frustrating this kind of thing is. Best of luck selling and finding your new car.

So many posts of blown engines! It does not make any Porsche owner feel good. Porsche should acknowledge that there is a problem, and they should have a program in place to replace these engines. John

It sucks for sure, if you're one of those affected! The 996 has been at the top of JD Powers' long-term reliability ranking in its class (tie with the NSX), so I'm still crossing my fingers that they are bullet-proof. Mine's 5 yrs, 18K miles now and nothing mechanically wrong in its history, no RMS, nothing.

Out of curiosity, do engines with auto transmission also have these issues?

Wow, that does suck. I was really hoping that wasn't it for you, but now that it's official I can't blame you for not wanting to touch another Porsche. I think for a lot of us this scenario lurks in the back of our minds. If you get a new engine you should keep the car and enjoy it for a while with piece of mind since the engine will have a two year warranty. Painful though.

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To your first statement, would you if you were Porsche? Would you risk 180,000 996 owners lawyering up and sinking the company? The system discourages them from saying anything, I'm afraid. To your second statement, what makes you think they don't? Do you honestly believe that the cost of building and stocking replacement engines is really reflected in their prices? The motors are subsidized, that must be obvious.

sorry to hear about your car...its sucks ...this was the main reason i choose not to get a 996..its really a shame that porsche has not done more and worse is that they have raised the price on a reman..imagine that..they have crated engines because there are flaws in THEIR design..

Come on people! We are all getting caught up in this hysteria lately and admit it or not I am sure that as we keep harping and maintaining this emphasis on "blowing" engines each one of us has some trepidation now every time we put the key in the ignition. Most every local owner that I know and the indy shop that I use that is absolutely full of Porsche cars getting maintenance and mods year round agree with me that this issue is really being exagerated way out of proportion. Like someone mentioned the other day, the guys on 6speed board seem to have a healthier focus, why can't we? How about we just enjoy driving the cars for a change??? Pete

Yes, I've see a few posts of tips with blown engines as well. Makes no difference.

i wish they'd at least offer a short block option. why do we need the intakes, alternator, PS pump, and all other ancillaries on our crate motor? it seems like with all of the motor issues they could come up with a less expensive solution for us. that is a lot of money for an engine, especially after paying a lot of money for the car.....

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healthier? healthier has in they're ignorant to all these types of things. i enjoy 6speed as much as you do but to compare the content, people.... healthier? no way.

I've owned Porsches for 8 years now. I can tell you, I could barely rebuild the top end on my 964 for $5,000. Replacing an entire motor for $10,000 doesn't sound terrible to me. Of course my car has 81,000 miles...and the biggest thing is mine hasn't blown. If it did, I'd probably be just as pissed. But, if I can get a motor installed for $10-12,000, why would I get a warranty for $3,000. I guess I'll take my chances. Man! I hate that your motor went. I really, really hate it! If I may ask, who gave you the quote? pm if you want. Pat

Sorry for your loss

I got a better quote and wanted to see what you guys think. It's a P dealer and they dropped it from $15,000 to $12,777.00. That's tax and everything out the door. I asked about what was included (starter, alternator, etc.) and they said everything would be transferred from the old motor. They may just have told me that and not know. I do know that it is a crate motor and should include what normally comes with it, including the warranty. Also, they said the last motor they replaced was BRAND new because Porsche didn't have an reman. ones in stock. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK ABOUT $12,777.00??? THANKS!!

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+ infinity. Takes the fun out of it. Destroys resale value further. Nothing good comes of it, especially when hardly any of these threads actually adds new information to the story. Just the same old wailing and gnashing of teeth. I really want to hear if someone's motor goes. And I want to hear if someone knows something I don't know about why and how. But the rehashing and the faux consumerism you sometimes see is just bad. Honestly, I agree with the comment about how cheap a replacement motor is, and I agree that 3 large for a warranty is silly when you only really fear one thing and that one thing is only going to cost you 12. I think a lot of people have these cars who really shouldn't, either because they're in over their heads financially, or they don't have the philosophical orientation to drive a car that's more involving than a toaster. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, here, and I'm not referring to this OP or anyone else in particular, but that's how I really feel. If my engine goes, I will be irritated at the unplanned expenditure. But I'll get over the financial blow in a few weeks, and I will remind myself that I bought a Porsche... good, bad, ugly, glorious, it is what it is. And it always has been, since the 356. I respect that this is a public forum, so you guys have at it as you wish. But I think I might take a little Rennlist holiday. Driving a Porsche is one of the best parts of my day; unfortunately, the last little while, checking Rennlist hasn't been. Rant over. Apologies to anyone offended.

Same happened to me four months ago. Oil was getting into the coolant big time. 57K miles. I tried a couple of less expensive fixes but without success. I purchased a 3.4L engine for my 2001 996 C2 and paid $8,500 for the engine from Checkered Flag Va Beach dealer. It was actually brand new. My local indy mechanic knows his stuff and is up to date on 996 and 997 including transmission. At any rate, a good mechanic can complete the install for $1500. I live in Virginia Beach and mostly track my car. The new engine is significantly upgraded and comes with a two year unlimited mileage warranty. And while apart I put in a lightweight clutch and flywheel and changed the transmission fluid replaced first gear as well. I would bite the bullit and fix your car. trading into a dealer is going to cost more than putting a new engine in the car. [email removed]

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It's called denial - some people would rather not hear about other people's issues. Of course, if it ever happens to them, they'll probably be all over the forum with their own 'my engine's blown' posts, demanding answers and info to help them get a new motor..... It goes with the early M96 territory I'm afraid - better to be informed than to live in rose tinted ignorance.

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Follow up to prior new engine post. My new engine had EVERYTHING including new headers. AC compressor, alternator, everything brand new. Even the block was new with a date stamp 2004. If dealer installed then labor is also warrantied for two years. If not dealer installed, engine has warranty but not labor.

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I expect a bit more providence from you than this blinders-on statement. You know why, we all know why. a $12K expenditure is a $12K expenditure that gets your car back to where it was already before the blow-up. a $12K expenditure is a lot of food on the table. you know this. It's a nice family vacation. It's a lot of diff things to a lot of diff people so to write off a $10G+ expenditure on a toy item as a part of playing the game when there are other toys that don't have an IMS/cracked cylinder/etc threat... comes off as pretty elitist bud. whether you're worth millions of dollars or making $100K a year keeping up with the joneses, let's keep it real.... spending $12K on a repair bill sucks on a car that's worth $35K.

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Uh-huh. Well, see, the thing is that some of us only need to be 'informed' once or twice. Not over and over and over and over and over and over and over and f-ing over again.

It's cuz it keeps happening bruce. we didn't ask these people to post up failure stories from 8 yrs ago.

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You have the option to not click on the 'engine blown' threads - really, you do!

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Many things suck. But nobody said that a Porsche with Toyota reliability was your constitutional right. Means a lot of things to a lot of people? Elitist? That is spectacularly hypocritical, Ben. The fact that you drive one at all qualifies as that. The median income of a working man in the United States right now is about $35,000, if I remember my census figures more or less accurately. I think that the guys on the other side of that number wouldn't feel too sorry for you losing sleep over your remanufactured Porsche engine. Get real, my friend. The fact that we're here on this forum at all means we're privileged. We're lucky, lucky people. It's shameful to feel like a victim over something like this. If you can't feed your family or keep your home, that's one thing. But if you get the chance to enjoy the finer things in life, and every once in awhile those finer things cost you something, you have no right to pity. No, I'm sorry. Your friendly neighbourhood Canadian isn't the elitist. He's the one who's manning up and accepting the risks that come with his good fortune. It's the guy driving the C4S and claiming to be a suffering victim at the hands of an arrogant corporation that needs his perspective adjusted.

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Yes, but I don't have the option of not seeing the list of them when I open up the 996 forum page.

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Yeah, I get it. And so? Somebody want to certify a class? Do it. Somebody know a way to avoid the problem? Tell us. Somebody know a better way to repair it? Share. Somebody have information from inside Porsche that might help with any of the above? Post it up. But otherwise, it's just undignified to be crying into your Cristal worrying about it.

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calm down dude. i think you and i both agree here at a high-level. we are lucky to be driving this car. but to play off $12K has a part of playing the game and you making it up in a few weeks... is complete snobbery. great so you can pay off $12K no sweat in a paycheck. thx for sharing info that's pretty personal financial info. manning up? WAHAHAHAHAHAHAH c'mon dog. if we're going to keep it real, if you call spending money manning up... not sure what kinda man u are bud.

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Buy a car that doesn't grenade - you'll avoid the posts that way

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who said i'm worrying? i'm not worried. that's the point. what are you... worried?

I didn't mean for this post to take this turn. I've read other posts about engines failing and I too grew tired of them. However, it's a totally different story when it happens to you. The $12,000 is not the issue here. All of us can afford the 12 grand or we wouldn't have the car in the first place. It's just the principal of so many engines failing in what is supposed to be such a high end sports car.

i disagree that all of us can afford to spend $12Gs when we havepeople who have a tough time justifying $4K wheels. or $300 tires. or $1800 PSE. let's not get all presumptuous here and call $12Gs $12 bux.

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1) To avoid the main problems - buy a 3.6L model car and not a 3.4L - if money is not an issue buy the GT3 and avoid the issues all together 2) If you do own a 3.4L car, when the factory warranty expires buy yourself a full coverage 3rd party warranty that would cover you for a new engine. And/or sell your car for a later 3.6L model. 3) Check your coolant and oil on a regular basis to avoid being stranded if it blows. 4) Invest in a large piggy bank and stuff $$$ into it instead of buying Starbucks/booze/hookers in the hope that it will contain enough for a new motor when the old one lets go. 5) Hit up BruceP for a new motor, as he has no problems covering it, and probably wouldn't miss the $10k once next month rolled around.

Bruce i can only imagine what the engine prices would be up here. I understand your point but buying a porsche and replacing the engine is pretty f up. If i would have new all this before buying my car, (dealer in dallas told me about this site) i would have picked up a 997 c2s. i thought i was getting a similar car at a great discount. i have a 2 year warranty but every time i get on this site its the same story Engine failed or ims. i need a 10 year warranty Most guys i would say are fine in life but even those guys get pissed spending 12k , i know i would.

Okay, children. As I said earlier, have at it. I'm very happy for you that you don't know what a real problem is and you can afford the supreme self-indulgence of whining about the fact that your Porsche engine might blow up. Oh, and cdodkin... just a piece of advice: Read before you pop off. I offered the OP my sympathy and explicitly excluded him from my comment. And, Ben, don't leap to stupid conclusions about how much money I have or make. I implied nothing about either of those things. I just said I went into this with my eyes open, and I'll survive the expense if it happens. Which has kind of been my point all along. Finally, othomasjr, it's exactly this that I think we've had too much of. I'm sorry, this may be new for you, but it's not new to the 996 world. Yes, they shouldn't fail. But they do, and it's not a secret. So, I think you've got three choices: Sue Porsche, offer helpful advice to the people who have the problem, or be quiet. Complaining without doing anything - about anything in life, frankly - is a waste of oxygen.

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I think about $15 grand is the consistent number I've heard for this work in Canada, not that much worse than in the US. As I said earlier, to those who cared to read, I'd be pissed, too. I haven't said anywhere that you shouldn't be.

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Hey - that's a good quote. Reminds me of the immortal words of Kwai Chang Caine: "If one's words are no better than silence, one should remain silent."

Is a 997 engine an option? Can you shoehorn it in? I've seen a Boxster with a 997S engine (I drove it - I'm not real big on Boxsters, but THIS one was fun on a scale of getting naked with Michelle Pfieffer).

Ben & cdodkin, I have to say that I read Bruces reply totally different from you guys. When he said "over the financial loss in a feww weeks", I didn't read that as "I make so much money that I'll pay it off in a few weeks", but as "I've got my car back with a great new engine, and $12k sucks, but driving my 996 makes me forget about it" kind of thing. As far as: " a $12K expenditure is a $12K expenditure that gets your car back to where it was already before the blow-up." Not true unless you are under a 2 year engine warranty, with Zero miles on your engine & auxilliaries...in which case the engine would have been free. That's like saying "damn these tires, they wore out and now I have to spend $1400 to get right back where I was"...not true. The engines ARE heavily subsidized, just by the price. DO you honestly believe that everything Porsche is so wildly overpriced EXCEPT the engine? Everyone agrees a blown engine SUCKS and no one wants topay for one. BUT, if you bought your used car recently, didn't you wonder WHY the prices are SO low for such a young used car? Yes, you (and I) already got the huge depreciation "discount", becuase there is a small chance the engine may detonate. What makes more sense... pay $38k for a 65k mile 993, that you KNOW absolutely will need at least $6k of top end rework in 30 k miles, or pay $34k for a 2002 with 40k miles (or $26k for a 99 with 60k miles) and take a 90% chance that it will be fine? No brainer in my IMHO, but the 993 buyers are doing that and worse, and not only not complaining about it, but happy that they JUST GOT a 993!! I LOVE 993's, but that is just plain crazy! "a $12K expenditure is a lot of food on the table. you know this. It's a nice family vacation. It's a lot of diff things to a lot of diff people so to write off a $10G+ expenditure on a toy item as a part of playing the game when there are other toys that don't have an IMS/cracked cylinder/etc threat... comes off as pretty elitist bud." That's not elitist at all...it is what it is. If the 996 had a bullet proof engine, MOST of us wouldn't be here on this MB (well, here, and actually OWNING a 996), because we could not justify the cost of owning one!!! What is the percentage of MB posters that bought their 996 new? 10%? I'm just guessing, but it's not huge. I hate it that they do this, and I DO worry about it (not enough to keep me off of redline, tho ;-) ), but I recogonize that it is BECAUSE they do this that I chose, and was able to buy one. I'll take the chance. I'd rather NOT spend $50 or $60k for a TT, (heck, for that money I'd get a 997 C2S), and if mine blows up, I'll rant like everyone else, butthenI'll have spent $44k for a car with a new engine and a 2 year warranty.....how is that bad? If you went into the 996 purchase assuming you could get a supercar class car for that kind of change ($25k to $35k), then I feel bad for you, because you didn't do your homework. I'm of course not downplaying the OP feelings or tring to make small of $12k..etc, etc, etc...

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bro, any monkey who can read the calendar and add can approximate how much you pull in minimum a month by your post above. c'mon bruce c'mon don't play all innocent here. u and i agree on a lot of things and you're whining about something that people choose to post because it is a legitimate issue and concern and story to share with other 911 owners. there is absolutely nothing wrong with people posting about engine failures. in fact, it's SO right because it is true and real.

I understand the frustrations and yes, lately there has been a flood of blown engine talk. ****, just jury alone has caused some loss of hair. The bottom line is feeling for anyone unfortunate enough to experience a blown motor regardless how much it hurts financially to the individual. Goiing through it would suck ***, that's a given. With that said I am sure glad me and BruceP are tight. Hell, we go waaaay back. For him to buy me a new engine would be like me buying him a beer. Hopefully I won't have to PM him anytime soon

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Spoken like a true salaryman. I promise you, I guarantee you, on all I hold sacred, that nothing I said gives you a clue about how much money I make. That would be tacky.

Yes, a 997 is a viable replacement for a blown 3.6L. Not for the 3.4's tho, from what I've read.

Even if I had to put in a new engine on my own dime, I thought $45K for a supercar class car with a brand new engine is still a decent deal.

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I am really embarrassed for the people in this discussion that are getting all shirty about how much money they make or think anybody else makes. So desperately, desperately insecure. Not to mention vaguely socialist. Sad...

"With that said I am sure glad me and BruceP are tight. Hell, we go waaaay back. For him to buy me a new engine would be like me buying him a beer." LOL X100 BruceP is MY new best friend, too!!!

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+ infinity

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this is a absolute excuse machine for porsche and the M96. bro an engine replacement that costs $12K say on a $50K 996 is nearly a quarter of the value of the car.... these engines are going not at 200K, not at even 100K, but at 13K, at 60K. that's absolutely unacceptable and silly to concede as some sort cost of doing biz with the devil. do you guys get it? budgeting $12 thousand DOLLHAIRS for something that should reliably plug away like a work horse for a long, long time. so we love the fact that the 911 is the everday sports cars, this implies it's a reliable daily driver. no way dude. not with our record with the M96. the more i learn the more weary I am of owning this thing even with my reman longer than my warranty coverage... that then at 70K miles i'll have to think of renewing my warranty assuming they even warranty an '02 any longer or put aside $12Gs for a porsche rainy day which is a very very nice long week partying it up anyplace around the world for a lifetime full of memories with some hot **** chicks. ridiculous. absolutely ridiculous. am i sweating? no. not at all. so far the fun and satisfaction of driving this car has made it all worth it. 15K miles and ticking. but am i uncomfortable with the whining i'm hearing about legitimate posts being made about engine failures by its owners? YES i certainly am.

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Damn, loosen up a bit You can't be serious, I know I'm not No harm/insults intended, ok?

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There you go...see, I just said the same thing too!

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Actually, it would put it in line regarding market value 996s should have relative to the 993s. We are buying these cars at a discount for obvious reasons.

Well, I have to say that I DO think that Porsche should do what BMW did for the S54 M Roadster engines. Up the engine warranty to 100k miles. And I'm not making excuses for Porsche, I don't agree with the way they are handling this at all. I don't think anyone does. What I think makes everyone so angry, (besides the possiblity of 12 large), is that while we liked getting the cars at a good price, we HATE the fact that it may happen to us, and by warning everyone that the engines might do this, would drive their value down even further. It's a Catch-22, and by definition, you're sort of screwed.

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Amazing, great minds think a like? Did you see my post on previous page? If you didn't go read it ,I also said the same thing!!!!.....wait...a...minute.....are you pulling a fast one on me....????

I am late to the game as always. It was one of the reasons I am driving a 996 now instead of a 993. the AC also works. Easier to change oil.... more comfortable.

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Do you mean out the door installed? If so YES, you should go for it and spark up that fire again. Why the change in price?

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bro you are so weak man WAHAHHAAHAH you are the one who brought YOUR personal finances into his not I, check 1, check 2, check 3, it's bruce P sensitivity/whine session time!

No offense, but I disagree with this. If you buy something nice, you have just as much right to be disappointed if it breaks. That's a subjective thing. Objectively, the world may not feel bad for you, but that doesn't change the fact that something unfortunate happened. I think the "too bad for you" type comments are misplaced, especially for the original poster who just had his "baby" explode. I have to agree with Ben: the elitist, we all are rich because we own porsches, so buying a new engine shouldn't matter to us, and if you can't afford to buy a new engine, then you shouldn't have the car, blah blah blah... is all BS. People buy things and expect them to work. Especially nice things. -td

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Perry, agreed, but I have a feeling many less S54 engines were impacted by that action than Porsche's count. You simply do not hear of nearly as many failures, board for board, in the M3forum than here about engine failures. Rod bearing recall, VANOS failures, and another thing that comes up is the rear subframe tearing, but based on my ownership experience and listening to people's stories... the S54 is what people would call bulletproof. It's also still being made with very few if any changes to it since it debuted back in '01 (?). Z4 M coupe, I think, it is a cool car and a killer value. M96's record is much more splotchy than the S54.

You know Ben had I done more research prior to purchase things MIGHT have gone in a different direction. I'm all good w/it at this point and will deal (not scared to drive or anything stupid like that) At the time of purchase all I knew is that I wanted a 911 and I was done waiting for the right time. Last year one of my good/few friend got diagnosed with lung cancer. Within a few months I became a 996 owner I take the good with the bad as good as anybody. But motors blowing up w/low miles is a joke no matter what kind of spin you put on it Bargain priced improved replacement motors...yeah, thanks Porsche Can't sugar coat this ****

I, for one, could not casually afford a $12k+ repair bill. This is why I chose instead to purchase a $3884 extended warranty, which works out to $780 or so per year. I don't plan on keeping the car beyond the warranty coverage. I decided to purchase the warranty in large part due to the (perception of) fairly high frequency of severe engine failure.

thanks guys.... this thread just devalued our cars another $5k.... Adrian was right about why the 996 has the rep it has...

There's always the option of a used motor from Oklahoma Foreign (for example). If your budget is really tight you should have no problem finding one and having a good indy install it all out the door for $8K or thereabouts. An extended warranty has pro's and con's. Speaking from an Indy point of view most are incredibly difficult to deal with, they look for any reason not to pay out so focus only on those recommended by others here who know these cars (important). Call Betim @ BBI Autosport in Huntington Beach, CA www.bbiautosport.com He might have a line on a discounted reman or spare as he works for Porsche Motorsport and also builds engine's for TRG. There are spares around you just need the right resource outside of the dealer option to find a good deal. There's no good way to spin the crappy situation but I'd recommend doing a little more digging before going with the $12K option. Good luck.

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You're an ***, Ben. I've had your back a lot since you came on this board, but this is playground crap.

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I hope that you understand that this is not what I've been saying. I think you're more literate than this, and I really have been quite clear.

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Agreed. 100%.

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Porsche devalued not us or this thread, come on now let's be real about it None of this should be taken so personal either

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Debate isn't personal. That kind of mocking and baiting is. My rule would be this: If you wouldn't say it to my face, don't say it to me online. And no matter what our ballin' friend might claim, I'm fairly certain he wouldn't treat any of us in person the way he does from behind the safety of his Dell. Thanks for the lecture, though. Really super.

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I play fair. if you say something stupid, I'm going to call you on it. that's what friends are for but if you're seriously getting your feelings hurt cuz of my response to your posts here, you're obviously not cut out. all i'm saying is you taking this $12K is nothing, deal with it people it's a porsche attitude is absolutely disgusting. $12K is a major chunk of the value of your car and again i'm going to link it up to the basics of life... that's a lot of nice meals. i'msurprised you don't agree. pls take a deep breath and reasses, bruce. seriously. i'm the same guy who sees and calls the same bigotry we see on this board as you.

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these guys have got to be F-ing joking i hope they are, if not.... WAHAHAHAH

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My feelings aren't hurt a bit. But you are an ***. And your reply just confirms it. There is nothing in your track record to suggest that you play 'fair'. You're a little bully, which is the weakest sauce of all.

Your an *** ben? Lecture? F' NO Just my take on it and a failed attempt to cool things down a bit Too Bad Will let you be Bruce, no problem

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none taken... Porsche didnt devalued the 996... the aircooled supremacy and paranoia did. If the internet was at full swing 10-15 years ago... I believe that whatever p-car was present at the time, they to would have had an exaggerated numbers of failure rate (not just engines). I am being real, the internet is not real enough for me... but people think if its on the internet hey, it must be true that these cars are time bombs (just look at the recent threads)... after awhile, if you read enough of it, then people start to believe it as a fact. The fact... is we dont really dont know the failure rates... can anyone here on the internet show me proof of what the failure rate is on these cars... Only Porsche know... and of course everyone and their mother has their conspiracy theory on why that is... again, i would love to know... but from reading all the posts above, I can see why Porsche opt to take the 5th... and quite honestly don't blame them.... there are alot of myths about the 996 and this thread just proves why that is... maybe 20 years from now history will set us straight and the 996 will be worth 10x more because of the hysteria it created and not because it was a new breed of technology.... peace!

Glad to hear I'm all good with it redridge. You make good points, dually noted I know we have no clue on failure % rates. I believe It should not be as high as it already is, that much I do know. I’m not looking for Toyota/Honda reliability. Not looking to sell either. I have a deep passion for my p-bitch to the point that my wife is a bit jealous. I simply do not know of any other car that has this kind of issues and that is a problem not just fabricated by some unfortunate victims surfing the net Are there any other cars with this many reman motors? I love my flat 6. But don't you think something is wrong when it can let go with little to no warning, low % rate or not?

Wow, "miss a day, miss a lot"! 1. It's easy to dismiss the blown engine talk until it happens to you. Ask me how I know. 2. The car is being devalued because we're talking about it? These things are even touchier than I thought.

Quotes source post: 5383278

you are sensitive. it does make sense now. i can connect the dots. la la la la

Quotes source post: 5383496

these guys talk in their argument for overblowing things on the net point to the very fact that this audience is small, that we are a small niche community here but then as soon as we talk about real issues impacting the wallets and ownership experience posted up not by me but OTHER PEOPLE, they conveniently switch up this forum to be some sort of primetime tv britney spears reveals it all interview w/ barbara walters. pls. get a grip. the car is being valued just fine in the market. i'm almost afraid these guys if they had their way would censor the word ims/rebuild/failure for fear of devaluing a car where at least one of the censor guys thinks $12K is but a line to sniff up and say next. a bit of a contradiction i must say.

Quotes source post: 5383428

Of course there is something wrong... thats why it let go.... let me paint a picture for you on a possibility of what may have happened here... an owner didnt pay attention (or care) at the oil level... the drive chain starts to stretch, the chain tensioner dont have enough to pick up the slop. The chain starts to hit the casing... to a point where it cracks it.... coolant starts to mix with oil. The internet gets hold of intermixing... it must be a porous block, must be a metalurgy process defect in manufacturing the block.... blah, blah, blah. There was never a case of porous block in the 996... if it did it would of let go driving it within 2 weeks out of the dealer.... these are some of the crap thats out there... Im sure someone will chime in with the porouse intermixing problem here soon... Im not saying that this scenerio is always the case but there are people out there who drives with the cell on and think nothing of it... have it cleared and throw it out on the used car market... The law of the universe is someone has to pay...

Oh Contrair!! Grasshoppa. I didnt read the whole thread but I will go back and do so. Porsche did devalue the 996. First of all they switched from the extremely versatile race capable motor to a mass produced wet sump motor. The 996 motor is worth about $8K with a $350 core exchange. My neighbor just bought one for his 996. He bought the 911 for $10k (with a motor issue) and bought a crate motor for $8k and brand new 911. The other thing Porsche did is they made 6 bazillion of them including the Twin Turbo (which has the much better dry sump motor and is worth about 35000 I think) thats why the 996 TT is worth less than a 993 TT. I think the 996 TT is the value of the century and if you are looking for one its a GREAT car. The other thing that hurt is they had a bunch of parts that are indenticlal to the boxster. There wasnt enough difference between the lesser 986 and the top of the line 996 911. In fact you cant tell the difference between a 99 996 and a Boxster from the front. Luckily Porsche came out with a new headlite design for the Big Brother in 2001? Or when ever the 996 Twin Turbo came out The 996 is a great car and is a step up in chassis design from the 993. But when designing the 996 Porsche was hurting and went to Toyota to understand how to make a less expensive product and increase the bottom line namely profits. The 996 was the fruit of that meeting. Having seen what my neighbor did I am now thinking the 996 maybe the value model of the Porsche line and if you want to build a inexpensive track car or a great DD the 996 911 maybe the car to look at. I was going to buy a 914 and do a track car or restoration but after looking at this incredible Porsche Value the 996 911 maybe the ticket for me. Dont get me wrong the 996 is a great 911 but its not the limited 911 the 993 is

Quotes source post: 5383518

Sure, I bought my car to drive, not to sit around and rub with a cloth diaper while I contemplate how much it's worth if I sell it. I paid $33k for my car about 18 months ago...it's currently worth $25-30k, judging by eBay prices--which happens to be where I found it. Seems like...a normal car. 'Cept for the engine problems, of course!

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Yup, thats why we all have 911s... I would go to an Indie shop cause of what people say about them, dont you?

Quotes source post: 5383541

Porsche "devaluing" the 996 by improving them over the 993 in virtually every way, save the exploding engines, is a win-win for a guy like me that doesn't believe that cars have souls, that bought it to drive it, and doesn't treat the whole thing like some sort of pseudo-religion. I wish I didn't have to deal with the engine concerns, but if this is life with a Porsche with functional A/C and the best performance to date of a 911, I'll take it any day over an air-cooled model and count my pennies, thank-you-very-much.

So i suppose the real question is, how come nobody organized a class against Porsche? Or has someone started?

Too loud I might have over stated it abit. The 996 IS an improvement and REALLy even the motor might be if you think about what most 911 guys use their cars for. You really dont need a dry sump racing motor unless you are in turn one of daytona at 30 degrees. The 996 Motor will do what 99% of its owners want. the 993 motor while more complicated is more maintenence intensive too. thus the higher replacement cost. Devalued maybe too strong a term. Oh BTW the AC in the 996 is the best AC in a 911 ever. The 997 is just as good

Quotes source post: 5383557

Because all class-actions do is make the lawyers rich, and because we really don't have much of a claim unless Porsche starts refusing to pay for engines that were under warranty at the time of their demise. Is it a crappy situation? Yes. Is Porsche legally responsible? Most likely not.

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Sure, I understand. Between the 993 and the 996, I'm confident that I've got the car more suited for my lifestyle.

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If it was just so simple we would see much the same in Corvettes, M3's, etc, etc... Porsche 996 owners are not any more retarded than the rest. A little low on oil, for example, should not even play a role in a catastrophic failure.

Quotes source post: 5383541

wet sump, bazillion 996 vs 993, toyota.... all of this is aircooled supremacy. I really dont want to get into this, if you want we can go at it through PM... please make sure that you have a reference source as I will do the same. I would rather work with references rather than what people say, it just faster and cleaner this way.

Hey I am going to start looking for one too. Its just too good a value right now and just a sweetheart (it would be my 2nd I had a 996 GT3 too)

Quotes source post: 5383530

You know not of what you speak - why do you feel the need to deny the manufacturing and QC issues of the early M96 blocks? Please read then come back with a more informed viewpoint: http://www.autofarm.co.uk/pdf/Total911_July06.pdf

Quotes source post: 5383577

But it does happen to them... now as far as #'s. We've already established that we dont have them. Porsche states that its normal to loose 1qt in 600 miles.... in other words make sure you check your oil!

REdrdige I am not going to my Excellence was Expected volume to find out what page its on. ANd its not air cooled sumpremacy. I have a watercooled DRY sump 997 GT3. Its a better motor than the integrated dry sump 997 also. I am confident in my understanding of Porsche history to not have to quote sources. I was just trying to help you understand the truth. Porsche went to a mass produced motor for its garden variety 911 starting in 1999. The more expensive Porsche racing derived motor can be found in the 996 TT, the 996 GT3 , the 996 GT2 the 997 TT the 997 GT3 and the 997 GT2. Thats common Porsche knowledge which you should be aware of.

Quotes source post: 5383589

Im not in denial, I know **** happens in the world... but let be specific, are we talking about pourouse block issues?

its becuase the ****e oil they put in the car.

Gents, I am done Off to have some good wine with my fine wife Good night to all Peace out

Quotes source post: 5383593

thanks... I was aware of that.

Well I appreciate that. But youre right there is a air cooled supremacy that some of the 993 and earlier guys have and turn up their noses at us water heads. That does exist.

Quotes source post: 5383604

Porous Block occurred in the early 986 M96 engines (97-99) due to poor manufacturing at the factory. Air pockets in the castings eventually caused failure. Changes in manufacturing fixed this issue after many early life failures. 996 M96 blocks suffer from cracked cylinder linings (Unfortunately, cracks can appear in the lining and its surrounding aluminium), cracked heads (The mounting point for the hydraulic tappets is a weak point,), IMS shaft sheer (Porsche changed the design of this shaft no less than four times during the life of the 996; partly to solve the bearing failure issue, and partly to reduce an annoying rattle on start-up), and RMS/IMS oil leaks. (See the well written Autofarm article) The first two issues are prime candidates for the intermix problem on this engine.

Quotes source post: 5383541

hey oldguy, i've read your posts in one of the other forum that i don't care to recall but do choose to recall the amount of the bigotry you spew with your astonishingly biased viewpoints toward german cars v. the japanese. i see the crap continues to spew forth in your absolutely inane summary of the M96/996 line-up. you're exactly the type of generalizing, uninformed ignoramous that inspired Streather to write his 996 book. so many of your points are off base it's not even funny. read it and weep. in fact, you could borrow mine if you're ever in the great pnw. i'll save thoughts for another time. for now, i'm out for the 5th of May. LOL

Dude dont be so stupid. If you look in Streathers 993 book you will find me as Special contributer. My musings of the 996 lineup are straight out of Excellece was Expected so call those guys inane. BTW I am special contributer to Adrians new 996 book too. That kinda makes you look REAL STUPID doesnt it. You name a source to show what I dont know only to find out I contributed to both volumes. I guess I know alot more than you think and at that you SHOULD be done for like a long time. ANd since this isnt a Japanese car site why should we even bother. You should LOL at your own ineptness. I am going back to the GT3 forum where there is at least a clue about Porsche history.

Quotes source post: 5383592

that's like nearly a quart of oil every other tank of gas. that's going from top of your electronic gauge bar down to the very bottom every other tank of gas. LOL i'd tell you if this was happening to you, dump the car it's a pos

Quotes source post: 5383697

a mag doesn't know more about a specific 996 m96 than someone like Streather. you contributed to the 993 book you olddork. actually read the 996 book as you may have contributed, but you clearly didn't read it since you couldn't get past reading your name over and over again WAHAHAHAHHA

HOW Freaking STUPID can you be?? Excellence was Expected is a 3 volume hard back set known as the definitive set of books on Porsche history compiled by Karl Ludvigsen. 1300 pages in a 3 volume hard back tha is THE encyclopedia of the Marque of Porsche and you dont know that from a magazine? You are of small mindedness. Its the definitive word on the history of Porsche and since you dont even KNOW what it is I am arguing with a mental midget. PLEASE do some research. At least if your quiet we only guess your uniformed until you speak and remove all doubt. If you dont have that or read that then you have no clue of what you speak and thats obvious.

Quotes source post: 5383723

i apologize i thought you were referring to Excellence the magazine. my other point about your 996 points remain. btw read your post to me again and once more. are you embarrassed yet? i would bet you talk to your kids the same way LOLOLOL and honestly, yea, I am a porsche kid, i've only had it for a year. but damn you're harsh.

Quotes source posts: 5383640, 5383640, 5383640

Yes I was aware of this... I know the boxster were known for this and some of the very early 996 (dont forget that the 996 hit eurrope first in 98)... Do you think that they still exist out there on the road today? I dont believe so. So it must not happen in 99 cars, since they fixed it. So in this case Porous block should not be an issue. I am aware of these problems as well... cracked cyclinder linings? Porsche cylinders are bored... they are not lined. I do however will acknowledge that there are crack cylinder walls that may be due to uneven temperatures or even improper heating and/or cooling. There are many factors that can cause this... lack of coolant, oil... weak block?.... maybe. IMS is a real issue... no arguments here. But, why doesnt it happen more frequently, if its a real oh **** design! then there should be alot more of it.... I still dont think we know enough or see the bigger picture.... it might even be a secondary event that breaks the camels back. guys I am not saying that these engines are perfect... cause they are not. There are alot of mis-understanding about these engines and that is whats frustrating... some of the stuff you read here are just so canned... being copied over and over again to the point where some of the truths implied are not there. Im not proclaiming to be m-96/01-04 god... but because we know so little of the engine reliablity #'s, and we have to point at something to scratch that annoying itch... instead of satisfaction, have made the itch worse by turning it to a wound. Think Im done here... thanks for the letting me voice a lil... peace brothers!

Quotes source post: 5383700

Tell me about... but... if you buy a car with a rep that you can drive to the track... beat the **** out of it for 2-3 days and drive it back home. Can you blame porsche?.... How can they satisfy every spectrum of people with all walks of use of the car and give them a blank single line oil consumption spec? Thats Porsche legal department talking there... in other words check your oil stupid! OK now Im done! Night folks!

Quotes source post: 5383751

I totally agree red the amount of conjecture on this and all 996 boards is out of control, the product of frustration and fear. That having been said, the Lokasil process on the M96 cylinders is a probably classed as a lining (but not a liner), and honestly I think since the M96 was the first production motor to use the process it had some teething problems. But it's in place silicon matrix which is cast in block. I wonder how previous water jacketed Porsche motors held up? I guess we'll never know, the internet wasn't keeping score back then.

Quotes source post: 5383496

Ever heard of Google? It's called page rank. And it doesn't matter how much unsubstantiated twaddle and pointless conjecture is in the content, the more people talk about it on a board like this, the more easily a future buyer doing his research will find it. Pretty simple, really. Just spend all day online writing "Porsche engines shouldn't fail," and you'll turn it into big news. Maybe you've forgotten Sean Bannerjee?

Quotes source post: 5384005

Oh, c'mon, Bruce, don't say that we shouldn't talk about failed engines in 996s because Google searchers might figure out the dirty little secret about these cars. You really think that those of us that have had engine failures shouldn't mention it so the rest of you avoid some depreciation? As you say about the engine failures in the first place, it comes with the territory of owning a Porsche. If Porsche and its customers don't want me talking about the engine problems, maybe they can see to it that they don't grenade on us, i.e. if you don't want us to talk, don't give us something to talk about. You've mentioned that if you ever have to replace your engine, you'll do it and get over it...having to listen to people that have already HAD engine failures falls into the same category. That said, I've no idea who Sean Bannerjee is. Does HE know how many 996 owners this has happened to?

Quotes source post: 5384264

Don't put words in my mouth. It's a lame tactic. What I am saying, to anyone who cares to actually read and think rather than jump on some Lord of the Flies dogpile, is not that we shouldn't talk about it. It's that we shouldn't talk unproductively about it. I've said until I'm blue in the face that we should know when it happens to someone, we should hear ideas about what can be done about it, we should hear ideas about how it can be prevented or fixed, we should hear what life is like with a replacement engine. But years of just moaning why over and over again? I've got two problems with that. One is that it inflates the size of the problem to people who are researching it. And two is that it's moronic to tie tens of thousands of dollars up in a toy that makes you miserable. Anyway, it's stupid to be personally attacked on a 996 forum for being pro-996, and even more stupid to waste time and gut acid defending myself. See ya.

Quotes source post: 5383751

To be clear about M96 cylinder linings: The M96 engine is quite different to those in earlier 911s, in that the cylinder liners are cast into the two halves of the engine block. They are made of a very hard, carbon-heavy material called Lokasil, and are positioned in the cast and then surrounded by molten aluminium. When the casting cools, the liners become an integral part of the block. So they are lined, and these linings have a habit of failing on early (3.4L) 996 M96 blocks and 986 Blocks, cracking in a D shaped pattern before finally locking the engine. It's poor design, poor manufacturing process, and poor factory QC. You refer to 'improper' heating and cooling - and this looks like an attempt to rationalize failures as 'customer caused'. This is not the case - they are design and manufacturing QC issues, leading to failures on engines that have not been mistreated in any way. Porsche have been busy swapping such failures under warranty, and even out of warranty, clearly accepting responsibility for the early life failures. They do however enforce a strict non-disclosure policy on customers, in an attempt to keep such replacements quiet. The problem now is that the M96 fleet are aging, falling out of warranty, and the failing block problem now falls on individuals to cover. Add to that the rising cost of that block, now that Porsche are removing subsidies on the units. The problem has hit in Europe first, where factory warranty is shorter than the US, and the cars were on the market earlier. Hence there are more drivers out of warranty, still with low miles, with blown engines and no cover. This problem is not going away, cars with high numbers of miles are experiencing the cracking issues, in the same places, time after time. http://www.boxstercars.com/pages/album5.html You can choose to ignore it - you can just choose not to discuss it - or you can get yourself informed and make some decisions based on the information available.

Quotes source post: 5383751

From the Porsche official press release c1998: "Lokasil casting For the block, Porsche has used a new Lokasil casting technology. The cylinder liners are made of an alloy made abrasion resistant by adding silicon. Prior to casting, the cylinder liners are fixed in position, then surrounded by a conventional aluminum alloy casting. The advantage of the Lokasil process is that the silicon required is applied only where it is needed." This seems to contradict Adrian's book and support Autofarm.

Some on this board (usually those that have experienced a problem) run around in all of these threads basically proclaiming the world is on fire and every 996 destined to fail. They act all the while as if since it happened to them it will happen to everyone else. I would never ask these individuals not to talk about it, only keep in mind that even though the failure rate for you is 100%, for others it is 0%. (I have two M96's that have been on the road for a combined 13 years that have not failed) Furthermore, keep in mind that many of these motors that are termed "blown" on this and other boards did not really blow rather they had a repairable part fail. Also, consider that (as Adrian Streather describes in his new book) some "failures" may be caused by owners that do not properly maintain their cars. IMO, Porsche is partly at fault for creating this perception with the design of their current "core exchange" program. For example if a 964 engine has a part fail, the engine is generally torn down and rebuilt. Did the motor "blow"? Depending on the problem probably not, but it might have been described that way if Porsche chose to exchange those motors. (Just imagine if every 993 motor with an SAI issue was "exchanged" and termed a "blown" motor.) There is nothing about a 996 engine that keeps it from being rebuilt. Porsche and/or aftermarket suppliers could provide parts and the 996 engine could be repaired like any other 911 powerplant (they are beginning to do this now). I suspect that as these cars age (and more parts become available) you will see more people simply repair their motors rather than opt for a core exchange. I think the program works well for now. The engines are not disposable. They are rebuilt, (only by Porsche rather than by the dealer or a local shop). This benefits both the customer and Porsche. Porsche gets $$ that would have gone to a local shop and the customer gets a basically new motor and a full warranty. Furthermore Porsche can study engines from the field to discover how they are wearing and make improvements. They can also control the quality of any rebuilt motor. I believe that Porsche probably did have far too many "failures" on early 986's and 996's. However they have worked on the problems over time and fewer of the later motors seem to fail. (i.e. the M96/01 < M96/02 < M96/03 and so on). Consider that the engines in the 997 are basically the same as the 996, but seem to be more trouble free. Hmmm, how very Porsche like to introduce a new product that turns out to be imperfect and rather than scrap it improve it slowly over time. Seems to me that Porsche is "the same as it ever was".

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Not sure why you feel the need to over-simplify this to all and none.... No one is saying they all fail, and no-one is stupid enough to believe that because their M96 is still working fine there are no problems in the design. As for folks that have had a failure being interested in speaking about it on the forum - go figure! Ray - you have a clear agenda, over many months/years, where you trash talk these posts - not sure why you'd want to do that, but hey, it's a free forum.

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Just like Microsoft but no one complains about laptops crashing....

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I do try to inform myself... but there is quite a bit of repsonsibility that lies on the owner on the health of their engines... Im not saying that people dont treat the car properly, but lets be honest... there are people that do not treat it properly.. That statement has caused alot of myths about our engines... which is quite sad... Here are the facts... "Lokasil is an acronym for a manufacturing process called "Localised Silicon". This process result in crystals becoming embedded in the cylinder walls (which are BORED) during the casting process." "They are not lined whith Lokasil because there is no such material"... it is more of a process technique than a physical liner. You know alot of these guys have cracked open the engines and see that there are cracks on the cyl walls... and states "poor design, poor manufacturing process, and poor factory QC." Possibly yes... but you cant discount other factors. Looking simply at an engine cracked open doesnt tell you eactly happened 100%... there are alot of factors outside of that engine the is essential to the health of the engine. for example... Heating.... Im sure there are plenty of guys out there who take the car past 4k on a cold engine as a DD... after awhile...yeah that can cause a crack. Cooling.... well the car is designed with cross cooling so that the engine rise in temperature uniformly... but if there is lack of coolant. The engine may not warm up uniformly... if the engine is not warming up properly, and if nothing is done soon it may be to late for the engine.... what can cause this... lack of oil. All of these are probable cause of an engine letting go. Im not giving an excusing for Porsche... but Im not excusing improper maintenance or use of the car either... This is the main reason why Porsche is in the position that theyre in with our cars. Why should Porsche give you a free engine if they found out it was starved of oil or see you got 200 type 1/2 overevs... just remember. They have the bigger picture of things... we dont.

Quotes source post: 5384720

I've been in correspondence with Adrian (996 Guide) about the 'liner' point this morning - he's convinced that a bad translation from German into English, by Porsche, has caused the misunderstanding about the lining process all along. We all learn something every day - onwards and upwards.

I think we all need to be re-informed about our engines... those canned quotes over and over, does nothing except create layers from the facts... and devalue a great car. Ease up on the 996 guys, I think we all can say its a great car if it doesnt explode... but isnt that the case with just about any car.

Quotes source post: 5384787

That drives Adrian coo-coo.......

i don't think we're being hard on the car at all. we're being real about it. we're not putting up a website soliciting M96 owners to post up failures on www.rennlist.com . i come here everyday and i am just another user reading up on threads and trying to keep up. they post a fact based, real life occurance of a failure and we reply in kind. that's it. my thread was specifically around if you have a reman then respond by answering a few questions. all of this is real life based. i don't want bad things to spread about something that i myself own. i'm on the same team, but to begin to get scared that all of this that we're doing here is going to devalue the car is absolute nonsense we have information about the M96 failure because it happened and it will happen again. there are great books that dedicate pages to this because... it happened and it will happen again. it's happened often enough to drive this much conversation/interest. i asked you guys to check out audiworld, ferrarichat, m3forum, s2ki, et al to see what their IMS equivalents are. all i can speak on is from having owned the s2000 (s2ki) and E46 M3 (m3forum), there is no IMS equivalent. There is no RMS equivalent. there is no nda between them and owner. there's little to no fear about an engine blowing up with the f20c/f22c and S54. bmw's rod bearing issue was handled quickly and succinctly many years ago early on in its life. porsche's m96 even with their 40th anniversary '04 version has had 3 IMS blow-ups that amateur new 911 guy ben choi came across just by talking to the owners. these guys aren't hairdressers who buy oil at the convenience store as they fill-up on gas, high fructose corn syrup. ease up? pls. it's more like at ease fellas, let's just continue to chat it up as it comes along. there's no harm in discussing these things. don't be such pu$$ies. it happened and will happen again.

Quotes source posts: 5384587, 5384550, 5384550

Hmm, that's a pretty heavy statement. Maybe you missed the part of my post where I said. Or You seem to "read" that my post was directed at you (it wasn't). Should I "read" from your post that since I have not experienced a failure that I should stay out of this thread? My only problem with these threads is that they all seem to turn in to a strange mix of indignation and misinformation that go on for 20 pages. I'd love to have a fact based discussion about these motors and the issues they can possess. There are many different problems that can cause one of these motors to fail. However it is pretty hard to have a meaningful discussion of those when a thread starts with as few details as this.... "Forgot..........my first Porsche, 2000 C2 with 60,000 miles. I've owned it for roughly 8 months and 800 miles. Motor is toast." Yet, from that we have 9 pages already and if history is a guide here this thread isn't even close to over. Finally your post seems to take a fairly angry tone toward me by stating that I have an "agenda" and have "trashed talked". If you have a problem with me or my participation on this forum please PM me and I'd be happy to dicsuss it with you.

Quotes source post: 5384720

+1 Paul Frere book "The 911 story Seventh edition" decscribes the Lockasil process (in simplified terms) on pg 374-376

Ben... if you dont want to ease up thats fine, we need people like you. You'd make a good marine! When I say ease up... I mean lets not post some of the crap thats been already posted that should be classified as false. or maybe or we dont know. Rather, lets focus on debunking some of the myths, pass on good information and maybe we can all learn something new, like what cdodkin just did. As far as IMS or RMS equivlant with other cars.... heh, heh I garauntee you they have their issues, it may not be IMS/RMS, but in other forms. All machines do...facts of life. just because you have a 40th anniv, doesnt mean the car was built by Porsche Motorsport... its the same stuff that all m96 engines are made of. People think the 3.4 is an absolute grenader and if you have a 3.6... your chances are better. How do they know this w/o seeing #'s.... that only Porsche has... these statements are very misleading, because they are basing these on documents that were produced 5-8 years ago that are based on misinformation... that Streather is trying to make clear... Also, to those that are in the 1st porsche market... when they come here and see these type of discussion that we have... would you buy a 996? ls911 in post #67 said that if he'd known earlier it might go differently... meaning he might opt for a different car.... yes, lack of sale in a used car market tends to devalue cars. Agreed! No harm in discussing... as long as its constructive.

Boy! I must be bored to read this whole thing: Orrin, I'm really sorry about your motor. Your sad and pissed and wanted a place to vent. Where's a better place than with your RL brethren? Perry and others hit it on the head. Porsches are expensive to own. Hell, adjusting the valves on my 964 is easily a $1500 job and is recommended every 15-20,000 miles. In 80,000 miles, I've bought a 996 motor. And that's JUST the valves. There's a price for 0-60 in 5.5 seconds or less. I think it's tough when people find that price after they buy the car. As far as the value, I think all are correct in one way or the other. I do think there's a precieved value, just like in Yahoo stock. If everyone thinks a 996 is crap and no one wants one, the price goes down. Again Orrin, this is your thread and I know it's tough. All I'll say is wait a week before making a decision. Shop around and make a good financial decision. To me, that would have to be replacing the motor. Then if you still want to sell, a new motor will cut your losses IMHO. My guess? You'll pay to fix your motor, drive it home, renew your RL membership and be driving your 996 next year. Best of luck!

OK...I read several pages of this thread and then just skipped to the end...it's possible the point I'm going to make has been made but I'll make it anyway. The big frustration with regard to the engine failures is it flies in the face of Porsche's reputation for building race proven, bullet proof engines. "Porsches don't break" has been uttered on many race tracks over the years and now that's not the case. Were they ever perfect, hell no...I'm rebuilding the engine on my '88 due to valve guides but it never exploded and it was more of an annoyance that a catastrophic failure. For my next car I'd been looking at a 996 but have basically talked myself out of it and into a 996 Turbo since they are getting downright reasonable. Porsche's reputation is definitely affected by this issue. I also don't see the point of comments that seem to imply if failed engines bother you then maybe you shouldn't be in this game...please, that's not the point at all.

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Ray - I'm sure you're a really nice guy - but you come in swinging on the engine blown posts ever time - same line, same tone. That's the way it comes across whether intentional or not.

Just because I'm lazy, what exactly is downright reasonable these days for a 996 TT? What are the physical diffferences in the core motor that has prevented them from having RMS/IMS issues?

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This is my point. These motors can fail in a variety of different ways and there is a lot of misinformation about their strengths and weaknesses. Some times they do "blow" or as you term it "explode" in a catastrophic failure. However, often they are repairable (thats one reason Porsche wants them back) but are replaced because it is easier and more cost effective to replace. (In fact Porsche replaced more than a few early 986 and 996 motors do to RMS oil leaks and some termed these "blown".)

Thanks Pat! You're a good friend!

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Well, that's constructive. I guess one could say the same about you. However, I'm begining to suspect this has more to do with me correcting you about the Boxster "sleeving" disaster. You have made a point to call me out in this thread. As I said if you have a specific issue you'd like to discuss please send me a PM. This thread is bad enough already without personal bs thrown in. I hope you agree.

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the motors are very different. the base 996 and boxster motors use a steel chassis inside of an aluminum case for the crank. there is no bearing between the case and the crank at either end, only a seal. this can allow some vibration at the seal that can cause oil leakage over time. the intermediate shaft runs the length of the engine and only has bearings at either end. it is chain driven. the engine is basically wet sump and prone to oil starvation on hard corners. the oil can pool in the heads the turbo / GT3 motor is a whole different animal. the bearing journals are part of the case; no steel chassis inside. there are main bearings at eaither end of the case, just inside the seal, which do a better job of supporting the crank & preventing oil leaks. the intermediate shaft is very short and it drives an internal oil pump. the IS is gear rather than chain drivcen the internal oil pump is fed by a remove reservoir; the motor is true dry sump. this prevents cavitation: oil is always available at the pump's pick-up. there are also two robust oil return pumps in the heads that make sure gravity doesn't pool oil in the heads under high g corner loads. the tt motor has all cam chains on one side of the motor. the M96 variants use chains on either side of the IS to drive the cam sprockets.

Orrin Look at it this way. If you replace the motor, and other than normal repair/maintance items, you drive it another 80-100,000 miles, you have probably come as close to breaking even as you possibly could. Maybe even make a few bucks. In the meantime, you're driving a Porsche. Any other way I think you'll lose $$. The only other way would be to part it out and that's a lot of work on your end, tearing apart the pieces, posting on e-bay, shipping... I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but think about it. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes.

996TT tear down photos here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-turbo-forum/162740-day-in-a-life-of-a-996tt-motor-build.html

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Here's an interesting contradiction: from Porsche document 1001 ENGINE M 96/01: "the following special features: Four-part, vertically split "open deck" aluminum crancase with LOKASIL cylinder sleeves" and from AS ATAG (the block supplier for Porsche and inventors of the Lokasil process) "The patented Lokasil contact surface is a technical highlight of the project: In the aluminum engine block for the Porsche model series Boxster and 911 Carrera, instead of cast-in cylinder liners, contact surfaces made of a special aluminum-silicon composite provide improved application characteristics." BTW, the block is Die Cast alloy, I don't think it is cast and bored.

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I do thank everybody that has been part of my learning curve, the good bad and ugly. Would not know half the **** on all the great mods one can do to a 996 if it was not for you all. Not to even mention the struggles I�d have with tech questions or problems were not for same. Post 67- Might is the key word. Nothing is stopping me from selling my 13K (original engine) runs like a dream 996 Aero. I am glad to have SOME info now on what could happen. I know it is not all factual, it does not have to be Complete "engine failures" is just one of those problems/issues I did not expect to see so much of on any new/low mileage high end cars. Never even gave it a thought. To say this would have not even been a small red flag prior to purchasing? I might as well have sunk my head in the sand. I got you on all cars having problems, I've own my fair share, I�m aware of these things including the other tings that can go wrong on a 996 Engine failure is a little different. None of this means that I'm running around screaming like a bitch they're all gona blow the end is near It would be stupid of me not take any of this information into consideration towards my next P-car. Currently I am a very happy owner, I don't sweat this kind of **** at all. As it is for so many others, owning 996 is a dream come true for me too. I also have a great deal of passion fueling my ownership, but seeing the personal touchy sensitive **** over this is disappointing. BTW BS on this causing a big drop in value on the 996's. It is really not much dif than most other newer high end sports or luxury cars. Just look at a used MB SL for example. They have experienced greater depreciation rates and I know for a fact you can't find ONE with a so called desirable 2 yr reman warranty

preach, ls preach. the level of sensitivity here is insane. it's like you need to hold a porsche pom pom in one hand and a koolaid in the other to be a cool, liked member here. if we had facts and documentary about engine failures and the like, don't you guys think we'd have all this established already? it's because we have no facts, we have little information other than personal testimonies that this topic continues to come up and won't stop anytime soon. i commiserate with those that have had to go thru a failure. that would absolutely leave a bad taste in my mouth and would be think twice about getting another carrera. thx to members here, i've come to learn about remans and i feel great about my car as it's been a fantastic year of driving for me thus far. i don't want to sell it. in fact, i want to spend a bit more money on it.

I had a Porsche salesman tell me once that Porsche new car sales pretty much tracked the stock market trends. Don't know if this is true, but I thought I was interesting...

i know that based on numbers from last year, porsche 911 sales are down 30% ytd. someone pls confirm. i blame rennlist/us.

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Frankly - I would agree... If anyone would like to know why Bruce canceled his Rennlist Membership - PM me. And as frankly - I'm not so sure he is alone in his sentiments. In fact - I'm not so sure you have to PM me for the answer - the "answer" is sitting right in front of you on the screen if you read this thread.. Ask me how I know.... John D.

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Yeah it's just semantics/marketing/translation loss here. Lokasil is unique, it's definitely not like a regular sleeve type liner. I've seen it called a sleeve, liner, lining, and coating. I personally thought that lining was most appropriate, but it really doesn't matter, the name doesn't change what it is. There is a cylinder with a silicon based surface structure integrated into the casting, which cannot easily be repaired if cracked, which autofarm and others can repair with a sleeve. It's also not popular, Porsche is the only volume customer. But if you look at the pictures of a block being sleeved you can see where the water jacket meets the cylinder. We shouldn't all be arguing semantics, especially since whether or not it's lined, sleeved, bored, cast in place, the only reason anyone here cares about cylinders really is when they crack. Arguing the exact nature of the factory cylinders is really only germane if someone wants to bore over. Repairing the Lokasil processed cylinders in the se engines can't be achieved with the Lokasil process if it is as described by the manufacturer, which is why people who do spend a lot of time cracking these engines open have resorted to sleeving them. It's not just autofarm who can sleeve this thing (they send it out to someone else anyway), others claim the same capability.

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Thanks for the note John. I empathize with Bruce and agree with the sentiment he expressed in his last post.

I think someone asked something to the effect "what's reasonable for a 996 turbo?". I'm seeing them in the 50's on a regular basis, although that is by no means an exhaustive search...just my normal checking of the various classifieds. If I had to guess I'd assume the drop in value of NA 996's is bleeding over the the turbos, which is good news for a potential buyer but not so good news if you own one. I'm continually amazed at the asking prices for older models like my '88. I'd be pleasantly surprised if these sellers are getting close to asking price.

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I agree entirely - and had completely forgotten about the post on Boxster sleeving until you mentioned it Only joking - If I was American I'd give you a big hug, but as I'm British, I'll just virtually shake you by the hand and say cheers!

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as someone who bought about 6 months ago, I felt that the turbos dropped earlier (only speaking to CPO), but it's not scientific, just studied

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I am not surprised with Bruce's decision and saddened by his departure.

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+1. This is getting out of hand.

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School is in session. This is the best I have ever seen someone take Ben to task on one of his usual opinionated musings. So, what happened to the nicer kinder Ben from 2 weeks ago?

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i read a thread on the 997tt board where a guy who just purchased his tt with less than 500 miles has to have his engine replaced because of a porous block. this was the condition as explained to the owner by the tech at the dealer.....porsche wants to replace his engine but he is pushing for a new car, can't blame him.

I love my engine.

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I agree that the argument is mostly specious, however, these terms have real meaning in the industry, and if people want to make informed decisions about their cars, the first step would be to understand their construction to be able to separate the hype from fact. I think it's far more important to understand the M96 engine block than to continue to post pure conjecture like: "engines fail because they are garage queens", or "no remanufactured engines have ever been replaced." Perhaps I am alone in this, but I think spending some time to learn about the engines might lead to more informed decision making rather than listening to all of this hype.

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if you actually read streather's 996 book and matched it to his lame claims above regarding the 996, you'd laugh in his damn face and ask if he's senile. look past the rather insulting, childish words he spouts off at a guy who's confronting him of his erroneous ways. he's huff and puff because i cut into him and he knows it. i hardly ever traded posts with the guy until this here today. taken to task? pls. he's gettin worked by me. special contributor? WAHAHAH laughable.

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this behavior is quite bizarre; are you off your meds?

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yea you took the wrong bottle from my cabinet bro - don't drive call the doctor cuz it ain't propecia

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where is bob and dell when we need them THE MOST?

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I'm with you man, more technical less BS, but it doesn't matter what we classify Lokasil as, it only matters what Lokasil actually is. Liner/Lining whatever people want to class it as, just doesn't mean anything, it's a different type of process which neither word serves well enough to be helpful to us. I feel like the very fact that we are debating over such fine points illustrates that we don't want to understand the process/construction as novel, and would rather try to equate it to something we are familiar with by throwing it in a box. Instead of worrying about how to classify Lokasil, I feel like it's better just to focus on understanding the process itself, its functional goals, and just how integral it is. I think clearing up misconceptions begins with sharing information from relatively authoritative, or at least somewhat judicious resources. To that end, here's a nice piece from PCA which I found helpful: ---------------- Scott Slauson wrote this up both online in the Boxster section, as well as for Panorama Magazine. See below. Does this happen a lot with the 1999 996, no it really does not. I think yours is the first such report I have. Let us know if your dealer or PCNA will be helping with the cost of the repair. If you switch to a later car, you should not have this happen. However some of the other issues are still present, those are covered here in the 996 section. See the Car Buying sub-section for the summaries and how that fits by model year. If PCNA provides you a rebuilt engine, I would be confident in it regardless of year, and it should come with a 2 year warranty in any case. Scott's original writeup: With the introduction of the Boxster Porsche teamed up with Kolbenschmidt to manufacture their newly designed water cooled engine. These engines were to utilize the newly introduced Lokasil liners. The liners themselves offer a higher friction free service area . This is most useful in not only the longevity of the cylinder but in the ever growing higher mileage service interval. The cases experienced several issues starting with their porosity . In 1997 many of these newly released engines would seep oil through the cases themselves. This seepage was due to a problem in the manufacturing process. When the cases are made in a high pressure die casting the air in the die has to escape. Should the alloy enter to fast and not let all the air out you would have trapped air pockets. These pockets produced a porous area in where they were. This area would then allow seepage of the oil. The reason it would generally be oil and not coolant was due to the casting process. The air would be trapped in the bottom to center rear of the castings in which housed the oil. Another well known problem was the liner failures in late 1998 to early 1999. This would have affected the 1999 model year cars only. These failures were also due to a manufacture process of the crankcases or engine blocks. The cylinder liners are made of an alloy made abrasion resistant by adding silicon. Prior to casting the crankcase, the cylinder liners are fixed in position by an operator , then surrounded by a conventional aluminum alloy casting. This is done by inserting the preformed cylinder liners manufactured by Plochigen-based Ceram TecAg in a special freeze casting process into the die. The dies are then closed and a high pressure die casting (HPDC) and squeeze casting (SC) are utilized to achieve this. Three casting machines with a closing force of 1,800 tons are used for this purpose. The advantage of the Lokasil process is that the silicon required is applied only where it is needed. Lokasil base material cost less than Alusil and is easier to process. These liners or preforms are of high silicon content of 20-27% and offer a high reduction to friction. Kolbenschmidt holds the patent to Lokasil and is also known for their Alusil and Galnikal piston liners. Lokasil is a "sacrificial" bore liner comprised of silicon fibers in a binding that, when inserted into the block mold, burns out the fibers, leaving the high-content silicon surface directly in the bores. This actually allows the “sacrificial” liner to become one with the block thus eliminating a separate part in the block. In 1998 Kolbenschmidt had dropped the casting machine while it was being moved. Do to the time to repair the machine Porsche was in a bind. This could slow the Boxster production down severely unless a fix was found. Kolbenschmidt had suggested using the failed quality controlled (QC) blocks they had. Most of these blocks had casting defect or a porosity problem in at least one cylinder. The fix was simple and by all means acceptable to standards when done correctly. What they suggested was to re-sleeve the bad cylinders. Porsche accepted and Kolbenschmidt began the process of the repairs until the casting machine issue was fixed. This process would start by boring out the failed cylinder to allow for the insertion of the liner. There is also a groove cut around the top of the cylinder to keep the sleeve from dropping. This groove is approximately 2.0mm larger in the size of the cylinders width and goes down approximately 4.5mm. Now the next step was the insertion of these liners. It was decided to press the liners in the blocks. This is where the error occurred. Some of these liners were pressed in at a higher rate than the top retaining ring could handle. This would then fracture the ring at the top of the liner. When this ring failed under operating conditions it would be catastrophic. The ring itself would fall apart inside the combustion chamber. At this time the piston would force this debris up into the cylinder head. The piston rings would grab the liner and pull it down from the momentum of the crankshaft. Some of these engines would be replaced from coolant loss before they totally self destructed in this fashion. This was do to the ring starting to come apart but not fully. This would compromise the sealing of the head gasket and cause the coolant to either be burnt or expelled from the combustion pressure. Porsche has not divulged exactly how many engines this actually occurred in other than a broad range of 2.5 engines in late 1998 -early 1999 . Nor have they released any engine numbers that have had sleeves installed. Generally speaking the problem would occur within the first several thousand miles. They have been very good in correcting this for their customers in and out of warranty. Scott Slauson - PCA WebSite - 6/14/2004 Joel Reiser - PCA WebSite - 8/11/2006

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Actually, the way to calculate the potential financial outlay (ignoring TVM) is to take the expense (12K) multiplied by the probability of failure. In the end, it works out to peanuts, so enjoy your cars. ..that goes for you too, space-cadet.

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that does a good job of explaining what happened with the sleeved blocks. i think porsche may use sleeve and liner to mean two different things. most of the time when i think of a sleeve OR a liner, i think of a thin cylinder of metal that is NOT aluminum that is inserted into a case so that it won't bind with the pistons (aluminum pistons in an aluminum cylinder will bind without a wear surface). this is EXACTLY the case with the sleeved porous blocks. they took porous blocks from the scrap heap and sleeved them w/ what was probably steel. the idea was that the steel sleeves would render the porosity problem moot. the further problem with these motors was that in some cases, the sleeve slipped inside the block and caused catastrophic failure. the standard block, however, has no sleeves / liners in a conventional sense. it's closer to a coating, but it really isn't a coating, either. you can think of metal as a matrix of molecules that look like a 3D lattice. in between these molecules, they put silicon. the combination matrix of the aluminum alloy & silicon impregnation allows the aluminum pistons to slide without binding in the cylinder, as it would were the cylinder strictly aluminum alloy. the hybrid material also has better wear charicteristics than the aluminum alloy alone. it's a very interesting solution. i wonder if it's actually any cheaper or better than a conventional sleeve would be? afterall, the thermal expansion coefficient of alumnum is huge compared w/ ferrous alloys..... EDIT: to be clear, the sleeved porous blocks were M96.20 boxster motors; none of these went to the 996.

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Thanks for the article and providing an intelligent perspective. I still think sorting out the semantics is important. For example, if we can determine that early sleeved blocks are prone to failure and the newer KS ATAG process does not use them on the 3.6 and 3.4 rebuilds then that information should help anyone with a blown engine to make a decision or at least to rest easy. (I am not saying the latter is true, it's just conjecture) To have more members who do their research, and less who post emotional opinions can be very valuable.

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Taking the bus?

Here's a document from KS ATAG on casting aluminum blocks. Maybe this will help in understanding the difference between a sleeved block and a lining. http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/kspg_pr..._casting_e.pdf

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Good post... I would have to say, based on that excellent attachment Blackness posted... page 7. I believe Streather and Paul Frehre is correct on the topic of Locasil and that the cylinder is bored for finer tolerances. It is indeed a silicon enriched sleeve but after the casting process, the block and the cylinder is one of the same but the cylinder having local silicon in place of the cylinder walls.

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guess i will get on the same bus soon. feel not much to say here nowadays.

I'll hope to summarize a little here: As many of us have read, the Loksail process is an integral silicon matrix, and the way in which it deposits silicon is sacrificial. Most importantly, I think a lot of people are wondering if there is a flaw in the process. I'm no materials scientist, but I've hired enough consultants over the years on materials issues to know that the introduction of an innovative process such as this, where many different materials are required to integrate, in some parts at a molecular level, will have a ramp in quality. Nothing I or anyone else can say will really make a difference in the way people who are worried about this sleep at night, only a quality warranty will. We wouldn't even trust a statement from Porsche at this point, unless it contained statistics. If you're sufficiently worried, purchase insurance ASAP. Sleep is good. With regard to the economics, I think we can all agree that Porsche c.1994 was a very different place, as was cylinder liner technology (which is as old as the use of aluminum). Nikasil didn't do well in the American market due to sulfur content of fuel, and Porsche used a lot of Nikasil back in the day. Alusil, the most widely recognized "fix" for the Nikasil "problem", was expensive. A less expensive solution was invented in Lokasil, although it required more advanced manufacturing processes and hadn't been implemented in any volume production. There were obviously some hiccups in the beginning with the whole casting process, porosity of blocks/cases is evidence of that. None of us can conclusively say that the incidence of cracked cylinders has declined over the years, nor can we say that it has increased. Having no data of any statistical relevance, I feel that we can only survey the available options for remedying the situation: 1. replacement engine a. Sourced from Porsche b. Sourced from Secondary market (rebuilders, breakers, Autofarm) 2. rebuild existing engine a. re-sleeve (LN Engineering, ?Autofarm) If you haven't already, Please review the link I posted last week about the other sleever: http://www.lnengineering.com/boxster.html

HT, thanks for posting that link. It looks like a viable option for those needing a new engine. I would rather go with a larger displacement, blueprinted engine if I was faced with a "blown engine". A few extra ponies would ease the pain, just a little.

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totally with you, I'd love to hotrod it if it ever broke and I had tto foot the bill. I'd go all the way out to 4000cc, by my back of the envelope math that's 5mm more bore than stock 3.6 (I only have dimensions for 3.6 turbo motor handy, so if someone posts the dimensions for 3.6L M96 i'll spit out the numbers for the real deal). LN Engineering doesn't charge extra for overbore applications, and they include nice pistons too if desired. Of course we'd have to find local shops willing to do the actual work, but I think with someone on our side of the pond acting as a service bureau for sleeving it will make life easier. It would have to be substantially cheaper than an M97/01S swap to make sense financially though. There is an LN Engineering rep on this site, his info in the previous thread, I'll invite him to take a look at all this. https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...8&postcount=28 Blueprinting implies someone outside of Porsche actually has the exact design spec, and given all the cloak and dagger stuff you read about with them and the M96, who knows if that's the case.

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...16#post5391116

I just made two posts on the other relevant thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...=1#post5391202 I'm not a rep, but the rep for LN Engineering. If any of you guys are from the aircooled side of things, you'll probably know who I am. I am LN Engineering, for the most part anyways, and who everyone deals with. My wife does the engineering and I have a whole shop full of guys that I work with on everything from the aircooled cylinders to rods and tons of private label stuff we do for other shops. After reading the other post, I'm very accessible, either by email, forums, or the phone [phone removed]), I'm usually available during normal business hours for questions and the like.