25 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHConvince me that LWFW is a bad idea...
Leading reported evidence
Install same lwfw
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
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0
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0
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1
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Read evidence and context
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1
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Alex at Sharkwerks installed the same LWFW on his shop car "Project White Shark".
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Suggestion
Perhaps Jake or another experienced engine builder can provide more examples, but so far the case of cranks failing because imbalances aren't being checked by dual mass flywheels seems to be very very rare indeed.
Leading evidence: 'Install same lwfw' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check by dual mass flywheels seems' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Honestly, I'm asking because I've used LWFWs in previous cars and loved them.
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Discussions that contain suggestions
1
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Suggestion
Perhaps Jake or another experienced engine builder can provide more examples, but so far the case of cranks failing because imbalances aren't being checked by dual mass flywheels seems to be very very rare indeed.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
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Suggestion · Original poster
David, what brand LWFW are you running, just out of curiosity?
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Suggestion
For instance, if 75% of the track cars that failed had LWFW, but 75% of the track cars in total also run LWFW, then the LFWF has nothing to do with the failures.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Check by dual mass flywheels seems
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
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Suggestion
Perhaps Jake or another experienced engine builder can provide more examples, but so far the case of cranks failing because imbalances aren't being checked by dual mass flywheels seems to be very very rare indeed.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
For instance, if 75% of the track cars that failed had LWFW, but 75% of the track cars in total also run LWFW, then the LFWF has nothing to do with the failures.
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Suggestion · Original poster
However, I believe most 996 engines are fairly well balanced to begin with....more to the point, I do not believe that porsche uses a dual mass simply because this engine requires the dampening.
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25 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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1 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
I really don't understand why so many people say this will destroy your engine on a 996??
I have a full SpecClutch Spec 2+ with LWFW that I bought last fall. Before I installed it, I read a bunch of posts on here that it would destroy my engine and I chickened out and didn't install it. (any of it actually)
however, since then, I've read a lot about club cars and GT3s that run with them, with no issues. They are *basically* the same engine as mine, with different cams, pistons and bottom end (again, from what I understand)
So why can these cars run a LWFW and a 2004 C4S cannot?
Honestly, I'm asking because I've used LWFWs in previous cars and loved them.
sean
The harmonic balancer on a 996 is in the flywheel. LWFW could increase harmonics on the crank and eventually cause failure. It isn't that the LWFW WILL grenade the engine, it's just that the only time that anybody has seen major damage at the crank and bearings is when there is a LWFW installed.
Jake Raby (sp?) at flat6innovations is pretty adamant about this one. I'm sure you've seen it but:
http://www.flat6innovations.com/broken-crank
Just my opinion.
I am not of the opinion that it will hurt your car, but I've known more than one person to install it and get tired of the extra noise + dealing with the grabby-ness of an aftermarket clutch/LWFW and switch back to stock (on street driven cars).
Yeah, I've read Jake's breakdown about it on Renntech. I just don't believe it's necessarily as severe as that. I mean, that car had 12,000 track miles. That is VERY different usage than I'm going to have over the next 3-4 years. Besides, after 10,000 hard track miles, I would THINK you would be doing a complete engine rebuild anyway?!
sean
The thing is...this example seems to be the only one that has been recorded. Certainly it's the only one making the rounds on the interweb. (OK to be fair Jake cites several cases in his text).
Perhaps Jake or another experienced engine builder can provide more examples, but so far the case of cranks failing because imbalances aren't being checked by dual mass flywheels seems to be very very rare indeed.
Furthermore, if we happily assume that the internet is magnifying the IMS issue, then wouldn't it ollow that this issue is also being magnified? With only been one recorded failure it should follow that the actual failure rate is less than one, and in fact it doesn't happen at all.
In theory, yes, the lack of a dual mass flywheel to dampen imbalance could cause a catastrophic failure. In theory also a little nib of case sealent could come loose and find it's way into a critical oil passage and a bearing could spin, or a flack of dirt could clog an injector and a piston could burn....I could go on but you get the point.
Stuff happens.
Read up on the posts. There are ample examples and good scientific reasoning for the failures.
I'm not saying ts going to happen. No different than the IMS. Nothing says yours is going to fail. In fact, failure rate is probably less than 5% but it doesn't stop a huge majority of people from installing the retrofit. Why take the chance? The ROI isn't that great either as far as performance goes.
ROI isn't that great on what? LWFW? really....have you driven one? I don't think you'd say that if you had. The acceleration rate is significantly higher. (so is the RPM loss mind you)
It makes a real and measurable change. Especially if you compare it to.....IPD plenum, or cold air intake, exhaust, etc.
I understand the physics behind it, I do. However, I believe most 996 engines are fairly well balanced to begin with....more to the point, I do not believe that porsche uses a dual mass simply because this engine requires the dampening. Evidence by the fact that they don't use dual mass flywheels for any of their "pure" performance models (read RS models). I believe it has more to do with the everyday drivability of the platform than the specific health and longevity of the engine.
Of course, I'm not an engineer, which is why I'm looking for more *real* info. Jake is someone I trust and believe, however he is only one data point against. I have received lots of replies from lots of people who use their 996's exactly like I do and they have never had an issue.
I guess I'm looking for a second or third "Jake" to really convince me this is a serious detriment to my engine's health.
Wouldn't AASCO and Spec be out of business if their flywheels were destroying engines?
I have driven them. It all depends on what you're looking for I suppose. I'd rather invest in suspension work but that's me.
The GT engines are a completely different animal.
Last time I checked, tobacco companies are quite profitable and don't make products conducive to good health. Think aasco only makes flywheels for porsches? How much do you think a flywheel costs to produce?
Not being fascetious, just posting an opinion.
As with all things, it's relative. For $900, I don't see what other upgrades, suspension included, would have a more noticeable effect on "performance" by whatever measure you rate it at. So ROI would be pretty high, comparatively speaking.
Of course suspension is next on my list, but it's $3K. So is dropping the CDR23 stereo for a new system. The rims I want are $2500. IMS retrofit, with AOS replacement, etc....another $3K. (if I need it....do I need it? should I? another mystery)
Like I said I bought the clutch kit (with flywheel) last fall when I thought I needed a new clutch....I just never installed it. So now I have to decide between installing or eBay.
I'm glad the question was asked because I'm wondering the same thing.
A plausible hypothesis is not all that valuable without verifiable data from a controlled experiment.
I don't want to turn this into another statistical argument, but if JakeR et al cite a high proportion of LWFW track cars with crank failures then they also need to cite the proportion of track cars that are equipped with LWFW.
For instance, if 75% of the track cars that failed had LWFW, but 75% of the track cars in total also run LWFW, then the LFWF has nothing to do with the failures.
Furthermore, it's entirely conceivable that the guys who run the LWFW track their cars more aggressively than the guys who kept the dual mass installed. That could skew the numbers too.
It's all conjecture unfortunately.
Not saying I don't believe the story could be true, just saying I'm not comfortable believing any story without proof in the form of data.
I am running this exact set up on my car. I absolutely love it. I have been running it for about two years and it is the most noticeable mod that I have done. Alex at Sharkwerks installed the same LWFW on his shop car "Project White Shark". I spoke to Alex and Randy Aasco prior to installing mine. No regrets.
