125 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHNeed quick advice on a risky 996 purchase!
Reported or suspected cause
"while you are in there-itus"
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Leading evidence: '"while you are in there-itus"' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is '"while you are in there-itus"' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check costs $0' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Inspect pinhole and saw the leak, definitely will need
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
He inspected the pinhole and saw the leak, definitely will need replaced but oil pressure was strong at 5 and showed no signs of wavering.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Repaired pan is back in place(unknown to me my friend jb welded it last night so it's set), filling with oil now....
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
The IMS double row bearing was replaced too with a hybrid part that came from an online bearing supplier ($100).
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Point is I spent $12k and pulled/replaced the motor myself.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion · Original poster
The wife of course just wants me to sell it right away since I wasnt lucky enough to hit the minor repair jackpot but i'm holding my ground so far lol.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
125 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
2 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Outcome without a verified action link
He topped it off and started it and the pressure was back to normal but he said he heard a little more valve clatter than before.
So i literally stumbled on a 1999 996 cabriolet with 119k on the clock that has a possible issue for sale. The car has been owned by the same owner the last 5 years, has some new parts and really needs nothing other than a tire replacement and the issue. The issue is he was backing out of his driveway and heard a small crunch(all of this is coming from him). He thought nothing of it and proceeded to drive and noticed the oil pressure went from 5 to 2 so he stopped and put oil in it. He drove it home and got out and went inside. when he went back outside there was a stream of oil coming from underneath the car. He topped it off and started it and the pressure was back to normal but he said he heard a little more valve clatter than before. He says most anyone else wont notice it but he did because he's had the car so long. He parked it and it's sat for 2 weeks since. He now doesnt want it anymore and i've been able to talk him down to $6500 for the complete car. Is this a worthy risk? If i was to do a complete engine swap could I get my money out of the car if i wanted to sell down the road? $6500 seems really enticing for a chance that its just the oil pan and i can get some life out of her... Thanks for any responses, i'll be anxiously awaiting as i have to move quickly on it!
Rob
No & no
Look up ims problem. Coin in dryer cage noise, oil paddle under the car, all points to the same problem.
If u still want to venture, flat bed it to a porsche shop(don't start the engine, u don't want the car dies under your watch) and spend some money on a ppi. Then u will know for sure
If you have to ask you shouldn't.
You should already know the issues dealing with a potentially mortally wounded engine. A '99 at that.
Sure you can replace the engine though it will likely have to be a 3.6l engine.
There are issues arising from doing this but not insurmountable.
But you should know of them already.
Walk away from the car.
If it was in the best of condition on todays prices the car would be about $20000 because of the high mileage. It is a cab. Even then I would reconsider. From what you describe I would give it a wide birth as there are better cars out there with lower mileage that needs nothing. I have the same year and model and it has 63000 on the clock. (not for sale though). If $6500 is all you can afford then you shouldn't even be looking at a Porsche Carrera in the first place. Hey its your decision anyway but I would say, don't walk away from the car, run like hell.
Appreciate the responses, $6500 isnt all I have to spend by any means I just thought it would be a solid project that, after replacing the motor if it is indeed bad I could drive and enjoy for a bit and not lose a bunch of money if I did sell. I dont know much about the 996 cars as both my 911s are air cooled. I will indeed run far away from this one as I am certiainly not a DIYer and sounds like after i have this one fixed I could have had a comparably nicer car from the start.
Thanks guys
Pull the oil filter, cut the top and bottom off, spread it out and look for debris. if it is full of small ferrous metal the IMS bearing is most likely the problem. IMS bearings can be replaced. A new bearing is ~$200 - 700 + installation.(Search IMS on Pelican and LN Engineering) If the valves have not hit the pistons yet a bearing and fanatical oil system cleaning would likely get you a few more years out of the engine.
New engine with no core is 20K. A decent used engine is 6K to 8K+. A Jake Raby engine is between those depending on type.
Sounds like a great DIY project or engine swap candidate. Good luck!
As a data point: I bought a 2002 cab with a "blown motor". I expected to find a bad IMS. Turns out it was a failed cam chain tensioner resulting in a broken timing chain on bank 1. I pulled the motor myself and had a reputable shop do the rebuild. No catastrophic damage but it did need 3 valves and of course the head redone. The problem is the "while you are in there-itus". clutch, redo the other head, rings, air-oil separator, IMS upgrade, mega cleaning because there was loose metal in the engine, oil cooler...it keeps going. Point is I spent $12k and pulled/replaced the motor myself.
BTW, I think the flat rate for R&I that motor is 9.5 hours. Not a small job. Not terrribly difficult, just need patience and the right tools.
I don't think you can buy that car cheap enough to fix it. This is the fate of the 924's and now the NA944's. They cost too much to fix. Great cars but cost more to fix than they are worth. Especially a high mileage one.
Just keep in mind: I have to buy the car for $6500 + fix the engine for $? OR find a swap engine for ~$8000 (which will probably need at least an IMS upgrade)....does this equate to me being on the right side of the value proposition for 99 cab with 119k mi?
Worth it for parts though!
After reading all the pros and cons from everyone on here i decided to split the middle and offer him lower than the $6500 and he took it! car is coming home tonight and i will update with pictures and an overall impression. If i feel it becomes too much work to be something i can handle i'll likely part it out or resell it but for the price i have to give it a shot!
To those who think the engine is toast, I really have hope that it just got run low on oil(not out) for a second and he said the pressure never dropped to zero. Under full oil he says its exactly the same except for the pinhole in the oil pan.
Thanks for everyone's opinions, here's to hoping i ended up with either a decent project or a solid car!
Mine had a failed cam tensioner pad that made the chain jump. The chain didn't break. I opted to repair the engine instead of a full blown rebuild. Total cost to get the engine in good running order and a good but used clutch kit was $2000. The IMS double row bearing was replaced too with a hybrid part that came from an online bearing supplier ($100). Of you have a chance to check a few things out before buying the car and can do all the work yourself, a non running 996 can be an excellent deal. $6500 for a covertible '99 I thinknis a very good deal but I do all the work on all my cars.
Sounds like fun, engine could be shot but if you talked him down further it's not too risky at all. If its repairable, then great deal!
Btw I love that Orange 964! Gorgeous car!
Car is on a trailer on its way back! Early impressions from my mechanic friend who picked it up: Car is very straight, dirty from sitting but will clean up beautifully. He started it and it had a nice puff of oil smoke and then settled immedieately with no smoke and sounded perfect. no noises, rattling, nothing. He inspected the pinhole and saw the leak, definitely will need replaced but oil pressure was strong at 5 and showed no signs of wavering. He didnt run it long, just enough to get it on the trailer but all signs are looking somewhat optimistic! Other things of note, clean and clear title with no accidents and receipts for over $6000 of stuff just done to the car only 2000 miles ago(hydraulic pump for the top, water pump, among other things).
fingers crossed!!!!
Rebuilt 996/997 engines are $6k all day long ...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-996-...443fec&vxp=mtr
Of course the OP seems to have dodged the bullet entirely, so for those folks who said run away ... SHAME! Fortune favors the bold, I would think P-car guys would get that
Everyone is telling him to run away so they can buy it.
$6000.00 is dirt cheap for any 996. Hell theres one near me with 160,000 miles and they are asking $15,000.00 They will never get it.
Mike
Update:
Was able to get under the car and the pan off and it indeed has a nice crack going across it. Drained the oil and had a few tiny plastic bits(normal from what I read) but no apparent block damage or anything! Interior needs a good cleaning and the exterior will shine up great. Will post pics when I get home and update as I get the proper parts to fire her up again!
Awesome!
Any signs why it cracked? To test the engine longer you can JB weld the crack (from the outside) and run it through a few heat cycles to make sure all is well, then get a replacement part or have the existing welded up properly.
It certainly could be if its just a broken pan. Reminds me of one guy that picked up a non running 996 due to a supposed seized motor, only to find out it was a seized alternator.
Here are a couple quick shots of the exterior.. still not clean yet but i'll get to that later! note the awesome ghetto wheels on my buddys trailer, someone stole his wheels 2 days before and this is all he could find as a quick replacement
Wow great score. Welcome to the club. I just bought a 99 Cerrara for 12K with no issues other than hight miles. It currently has 110,000 and runs great.
Mike
That was last summer, I remeber that one too.
Then there is the remotly diagnosed one (also a sized engine) that was then shipped to Flat Six, only to have a sized alternator too. People are afraid of their 996 and jump to conclusions that it's a failed IMS bearing and the engine is toast. It's time for DIY-ers to start buying these cars and start sharing info on how they fix them.
I've got a good 2003 3.6 motor for sale, has good leak down numbers, 64.000 miles, complete with all accessories, less mufflers, oil and temp sensor and wiring loom. No IMS update...
$7.500 FOB Fredericksburg, Tx.
P.M. if you have any interest...
There are about a dozen listings for used/drop-outs and rebuilts, I just grabbed the first one in the list to prove a rather obvious point;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-00-01-POR...e334c9&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/02-Porsche-9...ead452&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-00-01-POR...93a8ff&vxp=mtr
Are they all bad? How 'bout $7500 installed?
http://compare.ebay.com/like/190706831097
These guys are $6k to rebuild your engine ...
http://www.vertexauto.com/showitem.a...2&name=Porsche
..
If you wanna get crazy heres a freakin turbo for $5.5k ...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rebuilt-03-P...910#vi-content
I have a local rebuild shop that can bring it in under $4500 unless you need a new head and I've seen other shops bring it in under that price. Look, don't get me wrong, $6k is still MASSIVELY overpriced for an engine rebuild IMHO. We can play the same game with Boxsters and I'll be arguing the $3500 price point. And it's virtually the same labor as the M96!
Some of those gotta only be refresh's. Unless they are using aftermarket non-oem parts but even then, it doesn't seem too realistic.
Maybe they are hiring illegal undocumented workers from Germany for minimum wage?
Here' s a quick shot of the cracked pan:
I'm going to go ahead and do a quick JB weld fix for testing purposes and see what I have. How many quarts of oil does this car take? Also whats the suggested viscousity??
8-9 qts of 0w 40. Mobile 1 synthetic is oem fill. I've switched to Castrol Edge synthetic (green container) stamped with " A40". Advance Auto usually has it in stock. 5w 40.
Repaired pan is back in place(unknown to me my friend jb welded it last night so it's set), filling with oil now.... The big moment is coming up, I'm nervous as hell lol. I either hit the jackpot of the century or will have a super deal for someone in the next 20 minutes!
Well... quite the mixed bag so far.....
It fired up, sounded perfect.. some oil smoke out the exhaust that eventually cleared right up. I noticed the idle a bit lumpy and the CEL was flashing so i figure thats a misfire. After warming up the flash went away but I could hear a noise coming from the back that is really hard to describe.. It goes in and out, is there at idle and doesnt so much sound like a can of rocks as a flapping sound. upon warmup and driving it around the parking lot the misfire flash came back one time. Oil pressure was perfect throughout and warmed up was solidly hanging over the 2.
here is the sound in question..
http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/tu...62154872698302
thoughts?
thats what I kinda thought too?? I havent pulled the codes yet, i'll need the proper scanner for it. Right now i'm cautiously un-optimistic lol. Its definitely idling a bit rough.. not horrible but not like i'd expect it to.
Puzzling indeed. Up past 2000ish rpms it sounds really healthy. But, at 1000-1200 it sounds like an exhaust gasket, loose spark plug, etc.. Keep us posted, we're pulling for you.
Man the sound is baffling to me?? Ive been doing research and cant seem to find a thread or a car that has this sound. With the flashing CEL that appeared once or twice im certainly not going to drive it until i can scan it. I dont think its the IMS failure because it sounds like once you hear that it's pretty much toast seconds after. It's not a knocking or slapping sound either.
frustrating
Sounds like compression leaking to me. Combined with a CEL showing a misfire I think you should be able to narrow it down to a particular cylinder by pulling the spark plugs
You can probably pull the base error codes with even the most basic $20 OBDII reader... would be a good clue.
Might also try momentarily blocking the exhausts with a rag to see if you can identify an exhaust leak.
Good luck!
Get a cheap code reader from the parts store and see what stored codes are then start from there. No need to guess untill you know why the CEL was tripped. The pan was clean, the IMS bearing is fine but you can pull the filter and have a lool if it makes you sleep better.
+996
It seems more and more people on here speculate and stress and waste time without doing the fundamental basics and easy diagnostics first.
I don't think we still heard back from the guy that had some lifter noise yet either. Maybe he was too afraid to rev his motor and circulate the oil?
Check out this post. Some of the codes are similar to yours.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...302-303-a.html
Looks like a misfire. I started my car yesterday and had a misfire. My car sounded very similar to yours although I had a p0306 code
P1340 timing chain out of position bank 1.
P1531 camshaft adjustment bank 1.
P1319 - P1313 misfires emissions relevant.
P0150 o2 sensor ahead of converter bank 2 (cyls 4-6) short circuit.
Jumped time would be my guess. My advice is to avoid even cranking the engine and speak to an experienced tech about what he advises you do. Does the engine have to come out to get to the bottom of the problems or can it remain the car.
Oh, and an O2 sensor is bad.
Thanks for the advice everyone! Finding a shop in wichita wont be easy, looks like ill have to bring the car back to where it came from for any diagnosis(KC). I was hoping it would be something simple but prepared for this as well. I'll have to talk it over with the wife and see if she's on board with garaging it for a while and fixing it or just selling it as is to someone who could get it back on the road much faster.
Used to be a very good Porsche dealer in Wichita. I had my Boxster towed there and fixed when (years ago) I hit some road debris on 50 highway outside of Strong City KS and busted a radiator.
The service department took my Boxster in bright and early one Monday morning and gave me a free loaner to use while my car was in the shop for two days: Monday to assess the extent of the damage and order parts, and Tuesday to install the parts and get the car road worthy.
74, JMHO but stop wasting your time and potential money on this nonsense. Obviously the engine needs to come out for proper repair if its even possible at this point. You bought this car for a fun project, get to it and enjoy because its not your DD! You are not going to make a lot of money off a blown 996.
I agree with Macster. An engine scan with a Durametric tool will tell you where your cam timing is.
If you plan to keep the car, the Durametric tool is well worth the $287.
Agreed, even if I have to let it sit for just a bit I think its by far in my best interest to fix. I spoke with Bob Hindson from Bob Hindson racing for about 30 minutes(he's had this car in in his shop) and he will be doing the engine work. He thinks it might be a tensioner paddle that came apart . While im in there ill just go ahead and do the AOS/IMS/RMS as well.
I guess we misunderstood. I thought you bought this for a fun project for YOU to fix? What happened? Would have been a great thread with pics so I can learn something about these 996's.
The way I remember this starting out was the OP was under the impression he was getting a nice car for cheap.
The OP did I guess get a nice car for cheap. The only problem is the very nice car apparently has a very sick engine in it.
Before I got too deep into an M96 money pit, especially on an impulse purchased 996, I would definitely give an LS3 swap critical consideration.
I have no misplaced reverance for the engineering Porsche relied on to develop this engine. It could be a great motor, had they spent a few bucks more in its manufature.
And Jake can Turn them into the motor Porsche should have released, but the $$$$$$ to get there is a deal breaker.
Oh no, not ME personally.. I have all the mechanical know-how of a sock puppet. I can change oil, spark plugs but anything internal on a 10K engine is not something in my wheelhouse of comfort. That being said I am going to request a ton of pictures be taken of the job, the trashed paddle, and anything else that is found while theyre in there if I decide to go this route.
I need to research this further.. I had found on craigslist a kit for this and it was $7500 without the motor. I figured with motor and labor all invested it would be more expensive than even a 3.6l install. I will look into this though as i'm not completely against the idea!
Renegade Hybrids makes a kit, the website has all the pricing:
http://www.renegadehybrids.com/
All it took was watching the following video to convince me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=i3GXpKRTCIw#
!
I never said I knew nothing about cars, however ive pulled the codes, verified the misfires, verified it's out of time and can easily hear what appears to sound like something collapsed in the engine. the logical next course of action is to take it to the shop. Bob has a very good customer base and I dont expect him to rake me over the coals. If it is indeed what he thinks, it's a sub 4K repair(a little over when i do the IMS/RMS). At this point if i really thought it was something that didnt involve dropping the engine i'd certainly do what i can to investigate further but again, there are no shops here besides the dealership that have any knowledge of these cars.
Those pads are $20/ head but will cost 1000s in labour to replace and you don't think that's being raked over? Wait until the "while you are at it" part list starts to grow. Since you are not doing any of the work, this will be an expensive fix and mechanic will be going to Hawaii.
My guess is you spoke with Aaron Holmstrom, owner of Bob Hindson Racing. Great guy to deal. He won't steer you wrong.
I also like dealing with Carl Wilen at RennSportKC. Very straight shooter and he blogs all of his work on his website (
http://rennsportkc.com/blog/
). I've learned a bunch from that blog. Oh, and one more thing, he's doing an LS conversion on a 944 (track car), so if that engine is toast maybe you can discuss an LS conversion.
Good luck. My guess is you made a great deal.
Well damn, I thought his name was bob
Thanks for the great references, that blog site is very interesting indeed. I will call him to discuss some options as well.
I know just messin with ya.
I agree, DIY on something like this would've been nice but not everyone is cut out to be a shade tree mechanic.
OP please keep us updated. We are all pulling for you to have the best outcome regardless.
Doc, that's a great blog you maintain. I read the whole thing.
But I have to say I was really surprised to hear a mechanic say how much he liked the Jaguar XJ8/XK8. Has Jag actually become a viable option as a car?
And true, not all mechanics are crooks. But the hard part is finding a Porsche mechanic that doesn't assume that because you own a Porsche, the expense to repair is of no concern to its owner.
Lots of parts are rather inexpensive but until the bad part is removed and the new part is installed you can have a truck load of new parts and the engine will still be sick.
Unfortunately delving into these engines is in some cases a time consuming process and time costs money.
Thanks!
Crap, did I say that out loud about the Jaguars? I better edit that before people see.......
Actually they aren't bad cars at all (of course if they have been maintained properly). They have their quirks like any car does, but no doubt are often a victim to bad owners, which results in $$. The newer XF is a REALLY fun car for a cruiser.
Nothing new to report... The car is sitting in my garage while i mull over whether to attempt to do the work myself, have a shop handle it or go a completely different route and drop a 3.6L in. With it likely needing motor-out service that means new IMS/RMS/AOS, clutch, etc etc so i'm really tearing myself back and forth. The wife of course just wants me to sell it right away since I wasnt lucky enough to hit the minor repair jackpot but i'm holding my ground so far lol.
Kit is about $5-7k and a used LS1 (or could go LQ for less $$) is about $1k-2k depending on mileage.
Feel free to PM me if you're considering the swap. I learned quite a bit about the procedure doing it first hand.
Update! Took the car to Bob Hindson Racing and Steve diagnosed it as a probable cracked head. Unfortunately that is a little too involved for me so the car is coming home and will be sold as is. Thank you all for the advice and help in the thread, wish it was something not as severe.
Sucks that repairing the oil pan didn't do it!
Still, if you got the car for $5k ish, putting a '99 motor in for another $10k would STILL give you a nice 911 for $15k.
What does the interior look like? Options? That color is awesome, and the car looks worthy of a new (used) engine!
I am considering buying my first 911, it is a 1999 996 c2 cab with 87k. My concern is the PPI found p1531 code, is this a huge problem? The mechanic lead my to believe that It could mean that it needs a timing chain rebuild? Should I walk away? Please help, Rs
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
