205k... Hiccup Today... I may be Raby Bound

Some of you may recall I posted about hard starts after re-fueling a few weeks ago? I have had time to fix. Today, I lost oil pressure. The engine would run but not idle. If I blip the throttle, oil pressure goes to 3 bar... It used to sit at 4 to 5. Temp slowly started rising too. I noticed all of this in the few minutes it took me to get off the road. No leaks under car and no oil splatter in engine compartment... No weird smells or sounds. Any ideas? Also, please withhold the "... told you it would grenade" comments. Thanks in advance, JKC

I just went back up to where I parked it to see if it was sitting in a puddle of oil and it all looks clean and dry. Not a drip. (It has been sitting for about 3 hours). That help with any ideas? Jake, if you pick up on this thread, can you shoot me an email when you have a second? Obviously, we need to talk. Thanks guys and keep your fingers crossed for me. (I'm rubbing a rabbit foot right now). JKC

You had time to fix? what was it ? If you fill up at a station after a tanker has just filled the underground tanks alot of crap can be stirred up into the gas that can make its way into your fuel filter, happened to me on my sportbike.

I am sorry for the spaz... I have not had time to fix. It is some sort of vent issue that I "... was planning on getting around to." However... Oil Pressure and Hi Temps are a different breed of cat. I was on the phone with my wife and made a u-turn in pretty decent traffic to get off the road. I could almost hear the bomb going off and I was on the phone with her telling her that if this thing goes off it is a 20k issue. Appreciate any feedback and I will keep you guys posted on what I discovery. Needless to say, a very scary evening. JKC

I am in California finishing up my M96 Engine Mechanical Class today and I am not at the shop. That said, I think I know what this is and the symptoms are pretty characteristic. Email me if you want our truck to come grab it tomorrow morning so it can be there when I arrive. If I am right about this (pretty good chance) then we may be able to repair it simply and timely. If not, you can get in line :-) I have held one "hardship" position in my schedule for a full reconstruction- just in case.

Thanks, Jake. I will email you the address tomorrow. (It is in Roswell, near Horseshoe Bend and the river off Holcomb bridge). I have a rental car for a week, so not that big a rush. And if things head South with the car, I will just have to make other arrangements to get around while we figure it out. Have a safe trip back from CA and thanks for the reply. JKC

Over 200 thousand and I think you should be getting a full engine strip down or another car. No iffs or buts about it. Bang it in Part Ex for another Porsche at a dealers. Or sell privately. Its time I think.

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OP, could be the water-pump failing on you and giving the overheating? Bad or weak fuel pump could be the culprit of the hard stars. @hurdigurdiman There are millions of cars on the road with over 200k miles that run better than sub 50k mile cars. This is not 1950's, with modern synthetic oils most cars easily run up to 200k+ miles. My 2003 Acura TL is at 190k miles. It uses no oil between 10k oil changes, and it will still roast the tires off the line like it is nobody's business. There are cars on the acurazine that have 350k+ miles and are still on original blocks with heads never being removed. There are not many high mileage Porsche stories because people don't drive the cars enough. I am struggling to believe that Porsche makes engines so badly that 200k is end of the line for them. There are 300k+ miles Cayennes, boxsters , and 911s out there. If people drove their Porsches more, there would be more high mileage stories.

There is a lot unsaid here. First, with what you said about a "20K issue" and having a spaz attack over this, what did you do? Look underneath for any signs of leaks? Park it in a spot and check it out 3 hours later to see if the car hemorrhaged fluids? Come on...get in there and check things out! Coolant level up? Pull the dipstick and MANUALLY check the oil level. Are the cooling fans running? How hot is hot? Water pumped changed? Coolant changed? When was the last oil/filter change? What oil weight are you running? Any CEL's or codes? You make it out like it is going to be some mysterious Porsche engine problem....but these types of things could happen on any brand/make of car at any mileage. Please do yourself a favor and manually check out all of the fluids and post more history on maintenance and care.

From your description the engine runs but stalls at idle speed. I can think of 10 things off the top of my head (idle control valve, bad gas, fuel pump ...) none of which are particularly egregious problems to fix.

At 200K miles a used motor is probably a better idea than spending $20K on a rebuild; you can get another '02 for that much... 60-70K mile motor show up in the classifieds for $6-7K all the time.

Another Flat 6 commercial. Don't people use phones/email to communicate anymore? I mean really, if I thought my car was ready to blow up I'd be speed dialing my Indy instead of sending smoke signals on RL.

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The scarey part is loss of oil pressure. Ask me how I know. Also...Gonzo is spot on. Phone or email......I prefer phone.. amazing what you can pick up out of listening to a person's voice.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Regarding Hurdigurdiman and Kalishnikov, I think you both make good points. But I tend to side with Kalishnikov on this one. Modern engines that are taken care of and using modern motor oils are way different than the 351 V-8 I had in my '69 Cougar. I think the "... Raby Commercial" comment is little off base. He is not a pal and I am not his sycophant. However, I do trust his insight and we've talked off-line about this car for several years. He has always given me good advice and heads up. Plus, I live in Atlanta, so he is my "... Indy." (I use him and RS Motowerks in Roswell). As for the "... smoke signals" comment, I posted on here for two reasons... First to get some ideas of possible cause. (I've done that before and gotten great leads on here). Second, to share my experience with the board in case the same thing happens to them. If you want me to continue to post so you can follow along with my experience in case it happens to you, let me know. Or, I suppose you can email me off-line. We are looking at possible causes. The good news is that Raby drove it yesterday and he said that while the engine is worn, it was not a catastrophic failure. Finally, as for the money on a rebuild vs. engine swap vs. new car, if it needs it, I'll probably just do the rebuild. Here is my calculus, which may not apply to your situation... If I spend 20k on the rebuild, I know what engine is in my car and what went into it. I can also do some minor upgrades... Like balancing. If I get a used engine, I will never know exactly what it has been through before... Even if I do all the diagnostics on it, which I am not equipped to do. Plus, I like the fact that the original engine and everything is still with my car. (I know, kinda silly). If I spend the 20k on a new car, I am still looking at car payments unless I buy a smaller Suburu or Honda Civic. In any event, thanks for the feedback and if you guys want me to just shut up about what happens on the board, let me know. Won't hurt my feelings a bit. And, if someone tells me to do that, and someone else wants to know what happens, contact me off line and I'll put you in the loop. JKC

Oh, and DBJoe, Good point. I'll try to be more specific. Oil last changed about 7k miles ago, right before 200k. Weight, I think was 10/50 Mobile Synthetic. Level is full. Coolant level full. I didn't check fans because I shut down right away because I really didn't want to do more damage. I cannot check the codes because I don't have a reader. I've had the water pump fail on me with this case and I don't think it was that because I think I would recognize the sound, and because the water pump is reasonably new. Service history is pretty standard. In fact, I had a new clutch and everything gone over about 20k miles ago. (I've had the RMS and IMS service done on it) As for care, the car is a daily driver, in and out of traffic and on the interstates... Never been on track, at least in the 8 years I've owned it. I didn't mean to imply this was a mysterious Porsche problem, I just get freaked out when I see oil pressure dropping. Particularly when it is still showing low pressure when the engine revs. As for temp, my car usually sits right at or just barely over the 185 mark, so close that the needle still covers the number. The other day the needle started climbing far enough that there was space over that number... Not too hot (as when the water pump blew) but again, I get nervous about high temps because a buddy in high school ignored that issue and ruined his car. His dad was not happy with him about it either.

Jcreasy has been considering options for well over a year now, maybe two. The car is here now and I interrogated the ECU yesterday to find 17 fault codes, all of which were O2 sensing/MAF/Evap related except for two which were camshaft deviation faults. Today we are evaluating the engine mechanically to quantify what the cam deviation codes may be related to before moving on the Evap/ O2 sensing/ MAF codes. With 205K miles I am treating this one like a Faberge Egg and hope we can patch it up and send it back home for some more service. What will kill this is finding mechanical faults that indicate some sort of failure is imminent. This one holds the record here, we've never seen an M96 powered car arrive here mechanically sound with more than 171K miles on it. The engine has a lot of noises, and it isn't very happy, but it does drive well and all things considered, it isn't bad at all.

To spend $20K for the engine of a car worth $10K or less would have been sheer madness. Im glad Jake is handling it for you instead of you jumping to the new engine solution.

The reality that many of our purchasers have come to realize is the only weak link with these cars is their engines. Many feel that they can't buy a car this good for what it cost for my engine solution. This is why we are already booked until mid-spring for deliveries and thats 4 months earlier than it has ever happened before. I tell my purchasers many times per week that if they have the mind set that they are spending XXX dollars for an engine to be installed into a car worth XXX, then my program is not for them. Spending more for a Porsche engine than an entire Porsche is worth is nothing new, we did that with the 356, 912 and 914 for years and people still do it today. Those of us who have owned a Porsche all of our lives have lived this and understand it, but to most the 996 is the first Porsche they have ever owned, so they simply do not "get it" the same way. Some can see value, others see expense.

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Those two statements are at odds with each other; cognitive dissonance etc.

I've heard that 996 ownership causes this.

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"The reality that many of our purchasers have come to realize is the only weak link with these cars is their engines. Many feel that they can't buy a car this good for what it cost for my engine solution. This is why we are already booked until mid-spring for deliveries and thats 4 months earlier than it has ever happened before. I tell my purchasers many times per week that if they have the mind set that they are spending XXX dollars for an engine to be installed into a car worth XXX, then my program is not for them. Spending more for a Porsche engine than an entire Porsche is worth is nothing new, we did that with the 356, 912 and 914 for years and people still do it today. Those of us who have owned a Porsche all of our lives have lived this and understand it, but to most the 996 is the first Porsche they have ever owned, so they simply do not "get it" the same way. Some can see value, others see expense." "Jake, if you pick up on this thread, can you shoot me an email when you have a second? Obviously, we need to talk."

Gonzo911, I see the quotes... That is what I said, or at least I think I said, or what I meant to say... That I reached out to the board and asked for ideas, then I asked Jake if he saw the thread to contact me off-line. In any event, our back and forth on this issue doesn't really "... move the ball" and I probably should not have even brought it up. Sorry about that. I'll still post updates to keep you guys in the loop unless someone tells me to knock it off. If so, then I'll share with anyone off-line who wants to know. Fair enough? Thanks for the post and nice car, by the way. Wish mine was a clean yours... And a convert. Take it easy, JKC

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Good luck with your car. I do hope everything works out for you.

Looks like we resurrected it to see another day.

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I'm surprised 171k is the highest you've seen that mechanically sound...

I'm glad it has new life. Mine had 122K when it went. I have always been one of those that did not think much of JR......until I called him for help. I will be the 1st to admit I had him all wrong. He is a stand up guy. That is what I meant in an earlier post about talking to someone and learning from their voice. Big difference than hitting the keyboard. Have I gone to the dark side? Nope just sporting some grey. BTW....I'm trying out some JR oil and so far so good. Pressure is up and motor is quiet. I can't believe I typed that.

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You just made Krazy K's day!

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awesome! Jcreasy - congrats - I wish I had an Indy near by me as comprehensive as Flat6. Hey Jake - what ended up being the issue? would be good for future searchers to understand

"You just made Krazy K's day!" I was hoping his head exploded from overload.......

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either way you are spending 20k, if you spend 20k on a new car you still have the old car you could part out or sell

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Pete - what was the cause of yours ?

Great to hear this. Not great to hear this.

For a high compression, high performance engine, with a lot of HP extracted from only 3.4/3.6L's, it's really pretty impressive.

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Not even a little bit impressive. The magic of the Porsche flat 6 has always been the reliability/longevity/maintainability of these motors. The ONLY reason we don't see more high mileage machines is they are simply not old enough yet. One need look no further than the mileage threads on this very forum to find any number of examples.

What? Porsche got 89 HP per liter 10+ years ago from a NA production engine that can survive 171000 miles and thats not impressive? Compare this to a 2003 Mustang GT with 56 HP per liter. Granted the NA M96 is still a POS with many design problems yet in some ways still impressive.

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I believe it was oil starvation and spun a bearing. I track my DD and had upgraded my suspension and just bought some Toyo 888 track tires. The upgrade I didn't do was the sump pan. 1st run back in April and the car was just magic.....sticking in the corners. 20 minutes in and it went.

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What was the problem - or does that fall under doctor-patient confidentiality?

And a Fiat multi-air can produce 168 hp at 1.4L displacement. What's your point? You've still got it backwards Krazy. What makes the motor impressive is the exact opposite. It's not the power density, it's the fact that it can lay down the horsepower, every day, day after day, for 15 years, and it's still running strong.

Now thats funny!

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+996 My daughter's 1991 Toyota Celica has 265K miles and runs like a champ....it has the original IMS and uses the cheapest oil (regardless of brand, Autozone, Advance, you name it) that I can find....... Why my Porsche can't last for 265K miles without engine problems, or having to replace the engine? I use expensive oil.... By the way, does this car has the original IMS?

SP, I recall you being quite about this but many of us would have learned something from it. Maybe consider posting a thread with the pics, explaination, and solution, could prevent others from doing the same. Im sure all feel badly for what happened and assume no member would be rude enough to make stupid comments about it. We learn more from failures. If and/or when mine blows sky high, I will certainly post; "This is what happened and this is why."

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Thanks...glad you got it back in running order quickly

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It'll just create more drama here. No time for that these days.

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I have a race horse and mule. Why do I have to feed and maintain them differently?

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When these cars were new some people would spend an extra $12,K+ for the X-51 option. Some people belive the engine is the heart of a high performance car, not the shiny paint. Thus you invest in the engine to improve the car. Accidental collisions can render the car useless, but usually the engine can be transfered to another car.

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So...it was just a bad tank of gas?

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The point is that I feed and maintain them differently, but it seems that the race horse will not last as long as the mule.....even though is fed and maintained as a race horse....... We like drama.....sooo..... what was needed for the resurrection ?!?!

We make more real power than the X51 routinely. The X 51 engine makes HP so high in the RPM range that I have never been impressed with them. We have our own CNC port profile that out flows the X51, but it uses a smaller port volume and keeps torque up, where the X51 does not. One day I should share all of that, yeah its in my book :-) The X51 is unimpressive to me.

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I thought this thread needed some horse trading content.

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That is with a Turbocharger, and no intake cam. I think his point is that the Porsche engine made its power with 10+ year old tech. The times have changed so of course the newer tech motors are going to look more impressive

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Not really. His point, which he has stated repeatedly, is that M96 motors have very bad reliability. My point is that M96 motors have excellent reliability but only very good performance. Which is completely "by design." That is in fact the Porsche way. The horsepower per liter comparison was simply an aside to illustrate this point. And I was comparing to Fix It Again Tony effing FIAT. I did assume that most Rennlisters would understand this was intended as a negative comparison

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Careful, you could be that third wheel on KK's next date with JR... I kid.

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Hey Jake, what is the ETA on your book? I may have missed it's release...

No drama, no billboards, no worries - some of us are genuinely interested (like watching an operation on TV) in what happens to these cars of us....I admit I'm afraid of losing my whole car to an engine problem but I do like the thing SO much...the French have a saying "such is the price of life"... we get to enjoy a superlative machine and it' ain't free. Anyhow, I'm glad it all turned out for the best. Glad to hear it and VERY glad to hear there's help on the board. Nicely done guys.

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It will be released at the 2014 Porsche Parade where I will be a technical presenter and have a signing. It wasn't a bad tank of gas, it was 5-6 items that all added up to creating big time fuel trim issues. FRA, TRA and RKAT were all at max levels, the evap fan was dead, the MAF was dead and the AOS can't overcome all of the blowby from the worn cylinders, valve guides and otherwise. We had to trick it out to get the fuel trim within mode6 values and not trigger the CEL again, while creating a smooth idle. Its so tired that it simply could not adapt any further, went into safety retardation and ran the coolant temps up, then that heated up the oil and led to lower oil pressure. Its patched up and runs incredibly smooth and still has good power.

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Thanks for the update Jake. I know we all like to learn from others' experience. I'm looking forward to your book coming out!

Please continue the postings. As noted, we see too little coverage of high mileage 996/997s, and many of us have aspirations to keep our current rides for a very long time. (Even rennlisters have bad days, and "over react". Just humans, I guess.) relinuca Porsches Forever

Also, changed the blinker fluid. JKC

Seriously, I'll continue to post. Relinuca, I really didn't think I overreacted because falling oil pressure seems pretty serious... But in any event, I'll let you guys know what shakes out with the car and if I rubbed anyone the wrong way, I certainly apologize. I am in Savannah for depositions now and driving a Ford, but when I get back next week, I'll post a little bit more detail about what was found and what I intend to do with the car going forward. Thanks for all the feedback and comments... Even the ones that stung a bit. JKC

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Thanks for the update.......your response lead me to research the MAF, and found a great posting at 6speed online that explains all the symptoms..... Now everything fits together, the overheating (fan not working), the not idling (bad MAF), and the not enough oil pressure...... I wonder if you found the same CEL codes as the poster in 6speed? (P0175 and/or P0172)