Oil pan baffle questions

So in my research on how to set up my new R888's. I discovered our potential oil starvation issue. Read all about it and decided the best solution was the X51 replica oil pan baffle. I received the part from Tarett yesterday but upon inspection of the new piece, I'm not sure I'm happy with the build quality. The metal flaps that are supposed to hold oil in the center of the pan are at least 1/8" off from sealing completely against the wall of the baffle. Furthermore, the rubber edges seem to be held in place with some sort of silicon glue. There are little bits of this glue overflowing from the ends of the rubber seals and I was able to pull bits of the glue off with my fingers. I'm certain this glue isn't something I want in the lubrication system of my ~$30k motor. I suppose my question is, anyone else using this part from Tarett? If so, has your motor blown up yet? If not, what is the best solution? A deep sump is not something I'd lean towards as I'm already having clearance problems at the back getting out of my driveway. 2002 996.2 6MT non-X51 55k miles

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/2000x2000/img_1159_fd1467fefa5dd0c3292f9ad387e311b0ebd9c34c.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/2000x2000/img_1161_74cfc194fba8bd6fa08cee0379504b519c9a5bc0.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/2000x2000/img_1165_0a6a368e0537e701aa7c8e5a1663e3a8fdce45ae.jpg

Have you checked out the oil pan baffle kit by LN engineering?

Its the same kit with a higher price tag.

Why didn't you just go with OEM X-51 pan?

No one seems to be able to get them anymore or I would have.

Tarret could easily address your concerns with some tech facts. Silicone adhesive - assuming that Tarret used high quality silicone adhesive, the specs are able to deal with the heat and oil in the sump. Rubber seals -hopefully they are not rubber ,nor Buna N .If they are, they will drop off and possibly wedge the 'doors' open or block oilways. Silicone? Gaps at edges of baffle doors That looks like sloppy design.They did not adjust the length/profile of the seals or the door edges to seal tight. The gap is small(??) so probably not fatal. Did you get the extended sump kit - plus 1/2 qt. ?

As I said. I already have clearance issues at the back of the car so a deep sump is low on my list of potential fixes. I believe the LN/Tarett/etc part all come from the same manufacturer.

Quotes source post: 13129240

Have you contacted Patrick Motorsports?

No. I will try them.

Personally this is my favorite pan on the market. http://www.mantissport.ca/Products/P...t/Default.aspx Do you already have marks on your existing oil pan? Your car would have to be incredibly low to make contact with the pan in a driveway. Making contact on the turtles on track could be a different story though.

I do have a couple scrapes on my oil pan already. I really like the idea of the windage tray as well. My worry is the clearance. My driveway has a nice 3" drop at the end where it meets with the street. If I don't roll off that edge with just the right amount of brake, the suspension squats and I get a scrape. I've looked into grinding away some the concrete but the city won't go for that unfortunately.

What about some 2x6 planks to create a ramp so it doesn't do that? You would just need to put them down and pick then up each time.

That's not a bad idea. I rarely ever drive the car so it's feasible to make that happen. I suppose now the hard part is getting Tarett to give me my money back.

Pic of the X51 pan I put in x51panbaffles.jpg here is the stock pan Orig996C4S1.jpg

The plastic flaps on Jumper's baffle look like they will seal much better. I think, ideally, I would use the mantis pan with the oem x51 baffle. Has anyone tried that? I'm really concerned with the fact that the flaps on the Tarett baffle don't seal against the walls of the baffle properly. It just seems like hot oil would have 0 trouble flowing back out of the baffle as it is. The only upside is that the flaps on the Tarett are made of metal instead of plastic. I like the forever-ness of that. But forever garbage is still garbage.

I have not tried the x51 baffle with the Mantis Pan. I can however tell you that I have installed lots of Mantis pans and have not had issues with any of those customers over the years.

Quotes source post: 13129526

They are actually flexible rubber and not plastic same material used to cover the intakes on the metal side walls

Whatever it is, I'm sure it will hold oil at the pickup tube much better than what came in the mail yesterday.

Quotes source post: 13129554

Are you also extending the pick up tubes? Adding a deep sump pan without extended pick ups will just cause a bigger issue. The baffles allows the oil to not move so quickly to the other side under g. Which gives the stock pick up tubes more time to keep getting oil and prevent starvation. A larger sump will just increase oil capacity and doesn't do a thing but increase the likely hood of creating an oil starvation issue.

Quotes source post: 13129593

In my photo the red arrows point to the baffles, this is what keeps the oil from sloshing out of the center pan quickly.

Looks like the mantis pan comes with a pickup tube spacer, so that shouldn't be a problem. Wish there was an inexpensive way to just convert the damn thing into a proper dry sump. This is a stupid problem to have.

Quotes source post: 13129638

I was hoping to avoid it, but I think I just need to open up my pan before I can make a decision about what product(s) to use. I think its a combination of both the extension ears that exist on both the Tarett and X51 baffles(red arrows), and the large flaps which are superior on the X51 baffle, are what make the difference. I also really like the idea of a windage tray which should keep a supply of oil from crawling up the short side wall of a flat motor. An accusump is even further protection but I'm scared of blowing an oil line and having a fire. So that's out of the question in my mind. For reference: http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-...srk-detail.htm And: http://www.mantissport.ca/Products/P...t/Default.aspx

Quotes source post: 13129639

ok that is good, but it doesn't have the baffles, which Tarett pan does. The X51 pan doesn't completely seal up the sides either. I don't think that your metal ones are suppose to either. The important part are the baffles which it has. Just clean up the extra glue that will come lose and it should be fine.

Quotes source post: 13129693

That's actually what I was hoping to hear with this thread.

Quotes source post: 13129631

Of coarse the pick up tube would be extended. The Mantis pan has additional deeper baffles built into the pan as well as a windage tray to again prevent oil slosh as well as the extended pick up tube.

Mantissport , has data to prove its effectiveness.

Thank you for chiming in Ernie, keep up the good work with your products.

If I read this graph right, it looks like there is a significant(1.8bar or 26psi) drop in oil pressure between :32 and :35. Which is what we're trying to avoid with all this. Is there a solution that never has a drop in pressure? I've heard 9A1 motors have solved this problem with some sort of dual pickup tube.

Hi Guys, All of the baffles from Tarett, Pelican and LN originate from EBS Racing (Engine Builders Supply Co.). The basic profile is a modification of the original X51 unit with a few mods for broader application fitment and stainless doors that won't disintegrate over time like those of the plastic baffle and the X51. All of the designs (Factory and EBS) allows for relatively small amounts of oil to seep through in various spots. However, our design forces oil to go into the pickup area which the plastic baffle does not regardless of windage trays or extensions that are installed. The design has proven effective in hundreds of installations in nearly 5 years time including cars running slicks in various SCCA and PCA classes. The rubber seals are oil and chemical resistant and rated to higher temperatures than you will run your oil. If there is any sealant that squished out a bit during assembly it should be carefully removed with a razor. I will keep my eyes on new parts so this does not become a problem. Also of note, some of the oil pan castings do not allow for use of the lower seals on the protrusions that have upper and lower seals. They can simply be removed as the clearance is too tight when the assembly is bolted down. For clarification, we have two versions; one for a standard pan and another for use with the .5 quart spacer kits from Brey-Krause and LN Engineering. Please feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns you have. Thank you, Don Weaver-EBS Racing [phone removed] [email removed]

Great response from this vendor. I wish all vendors were this transparent and technically open with their responses. Thank you EBS.

Quotes source post: 13129781

That is a better photo and way to view the pan then the ad's photo.

Thank you Don for the excellent explanation!

The oil pressure drops ,they are @the slowest corners @ the slowest REVs. This is what is expected at the time ,lower revs, lower oil pressure in a race. If you just had a oil pressure gauge , you might be able to pick this up, but I believe that in a race you normally do not look at gauges @ turn in. Also oil pressure senders are dampened, the data sensors can be dampened by adjusting the sampling rate, the Data dash setup controls this, much more accurate method. Mantissport has been at the leading edge on Deep sumps. We developed this in 2006 when we build the 1St Cayman race car. Having raced a 911SC with dry sump I did'nt like the wet sump deal. So I decided we needed more oil, 2L more. Mantissport over the years has developed this into a advanced 1 pc sump, better baffling/oil dams this help direct the oil to the oil pickup. Solid bottom , more ground clearnace by 5/8". Our concept has been copied by others.In the past ,We have worked with Bodymotion group in developing Sumps, Bodymotion has their own solution, grew out of ours. Its nice. The Mantis windage tray, prevents sloshing of oil up the sides of the block, also locates the stock baffle, above the deep sump.The oil dams in the sump direct the oil on turns to the oil pickup. We have used a local universities CFD program to locate the dams, shaker post rig testing. We have tried to provide the best solution for street/track/racing. Mantissport ,also has a custom made 944 oil pans , with dual baffles, 2L to 4L more oil capacity.

So if I'm looking to eventually move to R-comps for DE and Autocross events, which of these is recommended? Baffle only, +.5 quart kit, or +2 quart kit? Thx!

I ran the FVD kit on my 996. It adds 3/4 of a quart of oil more than the X-51 pan and has improved baffles and a pick-up tube spacer. I had zero problems with this kit running rcomps, averaging 4 DE's a year. Super easy install too. http://www.fvd.de/us/en/Porsche-0/92...otorsport.html

Quotes source post: 13211456

Yes

Quotes source post: 13211998

Good info. Did you upgrade your AOS or stay stock?

Stayed stock on the AOS but it's a worthy upgrade if it's due.

Quotes source post: 13130178

Can the standard pan kit be modified to fit the .5 quart spacer kit? I have purchased the 0.5 quart spacer deep sump kit and believe I have purchased the incorrect EBS baffle kit to go with it (there is only one version on the Pelican site)

Quotes source posts: 13211998, 13213121

Same setup as me. Stock (newly replaced) AOS with the FVD baffled pan on my 996. Zero issues

Quotes source post: 15336490

Yes, the spacer kits are designed to be compatible with the OEM baffle. Ira

Quotes source post: 15337433

Thanks Ira, I�ve been in contact with Don at EBS Racing. According to him, the ideal setup with the LN 0.5 quart deep sump kit is to use the EBS Racing deep sump baffle version and omit the LN spacer that goes under baffle. I could no doubt make the normal baffle kit work but this is easier given I hadn�t installed the baffle.

Quotes source post: 13129373

Get a "Skid Plate" https://www.suncoastparts.com/product/99610798100.html

Buy the LN one. https://lnengineering.com/products/m...ard-plate.html It doesn’t mount to the engine.

I have the ln/ebs setup and pressure still drops...badly

Disappointing to hear. I am committed now, so I'll do the mod. I have a 996 Oil sensor to fit to monitor pressure. I'm at a testing phase. If it seems like racing is going to blow the motor I may well leave the car as a DE day car and not go to Spec Boxster standard.

Quotes source post: 15338276

That's the set up that we decided to run on our test car. Ira

Quotes source post: 15338926

The baffle and spacer both work independent of each other and each help with pressure drop. They help, but I can't say they solve it completely under all conditions. We recently added sensors to our test car to monitor it and see how much it helps. There is also a 2 qt system that I'd expect to provide additional protection and we'll try that next if needed. Ira

Quotes source post: 15339890

I look forward to reading what the results are. The whole purpose of the Boxster is to take track duty off my 964 so I need to have confidence in it, particularly in sweepers.

Quotes source post: 13132099

Looking at your graph, the oil pressure is running about 3.7-4.0 bar. Using the 10psi per 1k "rule of thumb" this would be safe for 6k RPM. Is that the max this engine was turning? I would like to see another .7 bar if turning 7k RPM.The oil pump reliefe valve is factory set to 5 bar so the pressure will never exceede this and would be safe to redline. Or are you running looser than factory bearing clearances so the pressure will not reach max?Also I see the oil temp is 233F, where is measurement taken? what weight oil? Thanks for any detail

Quotes source post: 13211456

It is our recommendation to run the .5 quart kit with n-spec street tires. Anything stickier and that's not enough, even with the x51 style baffle. The 2 quart deep sump provides sufficient system volume and oil control for the higher sustained g-forces sticky tires, suspension, and other mods allow. That said, race oil is a must when taking any of these cars on track. The factory fill won't cut it even with a 2 quart deep sump.

Quotes source post: 15342000

I�m planning to run my setup with road legal Pirelli Trofeo R tires, but on standard suspension, for the moment. I have a racing oil fill. How often do you suggest changing it?

Quotes source post: 15342845

Driven recommends 500 miles, however we've had customers be able to run longer. Used oil analysis is key. We've partnered with Speediagnostix for this: https://www.speediagnostix.com/ One safe option is to change the filter and top off the oil after the first race weekend and change the oil after the next event. If you plan on storing the car for any period of time, you need to put in a street oil for the required corrosion inhibitors.

Quotes source post: 13211998

+1 for the FVD Kit. I have the same with no issues.

Another shout out for the FVD kit. - On JRZ Series 11 with Yoko AD08R currently at circa 20 trackdays and counting. - I run Millers 10w50 CFS Nano but change up at 6k. Slightly off topic, has anyone retro fitted the additional X51 scavenge pump? I see LN have them for sale, Does it / how much does it, help protected against oil starvation?

Quotes source post: 15345351

They do work and when coupled with a stock oil pan, x51 baffle, and race oil, I've been told there are no pressure losses, but I've always run them in conjunction with our 2 quart deep sump. There was a company that made them in europe after Porsche discontinued them, however like theirs, ours do not fit a 911 very well on both heads due to the suspension upright being too close to the pump. There is also the complexity of eliminating the tandem vacuum pump that makes installations difficult. Once we are out of existing stock of pumps, we are discontinuing them due to lack of demand.

Being sceptical about the "rubber doors" (..they looks good on the bench, but thinking about the rubber shape when it is on his oil bath at track days session temp !!), when doing this mod, I went to Ira's good staines steel doors kit ! Note : had to modified it to fit, when using 1/2 quart extension.

Please share more info about this kit. Where do you get it? Thanks!

Quotes source post: 15351926

I would like to know how this baffle or even the stock plastic baffle works. The oil pickup is located in the middle compartment, so we want that area to always have oil even under heavy braking or high G turns. Does the engine return oil back into the oil pan also in the middle compartment? I guess I'm questioning why the oil is even allowed to flow to the left and right compartments if all the action is in the middle compartment. If oil drains to the left and right compartments, why not reroute the drains to the middle compartment and make the middle compartment much smaller so the oil has no where else to go even under high G forces.

Probably because at high rpm the oil pump moves enough volume to empty that smaller chamber before oil could adequately drain down and refill. plus you have a case seam and the pick up tube there so there isnt much space for an efficiently routed return line. With a vertical and horizontal baffle, and a 2 qt deep sump, im not sure why i still have issues, but i do.

I recently installed the 2 quart deep sump and discovered my car already had an X51 type baffle installed. The old one has the rubber doors and the new one has metal doors.

While we are at it, a shout out to Don at EBS Racing. In error I bought the wrong version of their baffle from a reseller. He offered to swap it for the deep sump version for free, which is what happened. It was a very different experience to the rebranded China made exhaust bought from a Texas supplier which didn't fit out of the box and the reply was basically "suck it up princess".

Don at EBS is fantastic! I bought the 1/2 quart extension and the baffle to go with it and I couldn't get the baffle to fit right. My email was responded fast and clear instructions. Turn out different year car could have different shape of oil pan and the orange piece on the baffle has to be removed on one of the corner for mine to fit. But customer service was great! LN was also great in responding to my question as well!

Quotes source post: 15350528

Charles, thanks for the reply, how do they rate versus an Accusump?

The accusump does work, but the downside is that it robs system pressure to accumulate oil and they may be times the engine ends up overfilled. The biggest problem I saw was people running them and forgetting to actually turn them on. A tandem scavenge pump or deep sump requires no special consideration when operating the vehicle.

Hey everyone, I'll be getting into my first HPDE track events this summer and will be putting a new set of tires on the car. I'm looking at a set of extreme performance tires like the Dunlop Direzza Z3, Potenza RE-71R, etc. and i'm trying to figure out if I need to get an X51 type baffle with those type of tires or if iI'll be OK with the stock setup until I go R compounds? I'm new to track days so I'll be in the beginner run groups and wont be driving the car anywhere near it's limits but my local track is Pike Peak International Raceway that uses part of its NASCAR banked oval on the road course. Should I be worried about the banked oval possible causing some starvation issues? Thanks in advance for the help, trying to do as many preventative measures as I can before hitting the track in a few months.

Need?? Seems like cheap insurance.

Quotes source post: 15738431

Yes, running on the high bank oval you definitely have to worry about oil starvation. You really should consult with a knowledgeable Porsche race team about what oil/oil pan setup you should have for running your "wet sump" engine on the high banks. Some recommend not to do it at all because of the engine design. This is a situation where even a deep sump oil pan will not work to keep oil under the pickup tube.

Quotes source post: 15739079

What's the point in having a 911 if you can't track it? You can't call it a sports car then. Maybe they should be known as a "sporty sub-compact". If it's that fragile and it breaks while I am tracking it, so be it. I joined the Driving Club at Road Atlanta last year and I have been able to attend several track days. I installed a 2qt deep sump and run Driven XP-9 10W40 (low foaming) oil. I drive the car as hard as my skill level allows. (I posted previously in the thread). My car had thousands of track miles before I bought it with the stock sump and an X51 baffle. It still has the original engine. Level 1 revs (redline) are maxed at over 3 minutes. Level 2 total a little over 3 seconds with the latest being over 50k miles ago. Shooter needs to be comfortable with his decision regarding tracking the car. If the engine breaks, it's an expensive fix no matter what you do. I personally would install the deep sump kit (which comes with the X51 baffle), XP-9 oil, and have some fun at the track. Life it too short to worry about the "what ifs", in my opinion. But then again, I am willing to take the risk with my car and I am not telling Shooter what to do.

Notice that my comments were about the high banking, not about tracking it. Of course you can track it with the right setup. My thoughts were heading towards prolonged running on a high bank where all the oil gets pulled by gravity away from the oil pickup tube. You don't experience that on a flat track. My experience with this is the Daytona Beach Speedway 31 degree high banks. You can barely stand up on the high banks they are so steep. The sports car clubs, including Porsche, do not allow the cars (or at least highly not recommended) on the high banks specifically for this reason. Note - I'm talking sports car clubs, DE setups, weekenders and so on......not specially prepped racing cars and teams.

Quotes source post: 15739159

I have never heard this. I have walked on the Charlotte Motor Speedway and I know what you mean by steeply banked. Wouldn't this put the angle of the oil pan close to perpendicular to the force on such a steep bank? In that case the 31 degrees of bank would keep the oil closer to the center of the pan and help keep the pick up submerged. I have watched videos of DE cars have blowouts of the right rear tire at Daytona. The load is apparently highest on that tire. Some driver's made great saves when the tires disintegrated at high speed. This is what I would be thinking about if I was out on the track.

Thanks for the input everyone, I went back and watched a few in car videos of the road course at PPIR and the banked part isn't nearly as steep as say Daytona or other major NASCAR ovals. You can see the course here. You Tube Having seen that I feel a little better about driving there, especially since the local PCA chapter runs regular events there. As CDS said it's cheap insurance even if I'm not running R compounds, $500 part vs $10k rebuild, so I'll be looking into that at some point this year.

Quotes source post: 15342000

Clarification needed please: with 0.5 kit do you mean just the spacer or spacer plus baffles?

If you are going to track the car with street tires, the .5 quart sump with the x51 baffle is sufficient. That said, if you end up going faster, pull more G's, and upgrade to stickier tires, you'll end up wanting the 2 quart deep sump, so that is something to keep in mind when making a selection.

Quotes source post: 17586689

i know the best scenario is to use both the spacer and baffle but i have just the spacer right now, so i want to know how much of protection does just the 0.5 qt spacer provide? Or if i were to word it differently, if someone were to pick one over the other, baffle or spacer, which would be a better choice?