34 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHMetal dust in oil
Reported or suspected cause
ims bearing (mine had also been replaced prior)
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
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Discussions that report identifying a cause
1
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Reported cause
In the end it turned out to be the IMS bearing (mine had also been replaced prior).
Leading evidence: 'ims bearing (mine had also been replaced prior)' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'ims bearing (mine had also been replaced prior)' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check path of the oil' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I remember one customer that bought a beautiful Blue 04 Targa, and in 05 with 4k miles the IMSB failed, I installed a complete factory crate motor in it ($30k), then in 06 the new crate motor IMSB failed at 9K miles, so I installed another new crate motor ($30k).
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
We have a strong consensus that many shops have installed new bearings in failing engines.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I have two of these kits in my office as proof they did exist at one time, but it's highly unlikely they were fitted by the dealership in our car.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I remember one customer that bought a beautiful Blue 04 Targa, and in 05 with 4k miles the IMSB failed, I installed a complete factory crate motor in it ($30k), then in 06 the new crate motor IMSB failed at 9K miles, so I installed another new crate motor ($30k).
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I remember one customer that bought a beautiful Blue 04 Targa, and in 05 with 4k miles the IMSB failed, I installed a complete factory crate motor in it ($30k), then in 06 the new crate motor IMSB failed at 9K miles, so I installed another new crate motor ($30k).
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I remember one customer that bought a beautiful Blue 04 Targa, and in 05 with 4k miles the IMSB failed, I installed a complete factory crate motor in it ($30k), then in 06 the new crate motor IMSB failed at 9K miles, so I installed another new crate motor ($30k).
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
34 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261027T150039Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
I�ve been searching and am finding mixed messages. I had magnetic metallic dust or powder in the filter on my last oil change. 1999, IMS changed at 72k, currently 82k. I drive it hard, including 2 track days at 80k (instructor group) and I have no idea about 0-79k life. Zero flakes, only the dust. Runs smooth as silk. Pics attempting of filter and remnants from the magnet I ran over it.
I went through this a few years back. If it is ferrous as you mentioned, there are limited places it can come from. My investigation worked backward from the filter, checking the path of the oil for traces. In the end it turned out to be the IMS bearing (mine had also been replaced prior).
Do you use a magnetic drain plug? If so, did it catch any? I’d drop the sump plate to have a peek in there (very simple job to DIY).
Agree with JTT above, very few places in an M96 engine for ferrous flakes or particles to manifest. Oil pump gears grinding each other away? Not likely but easy enough to check. Cam lobes grinding away at lifters? Also not very likely and a little tougher to check. Cam chain tensioner rails grinding away at their pivot points? Unheard of and, yes, very difficult to check. IMS or cam sprockets grinding away at the cam chains? That would probably make one helluva racket and, again, difficult to check. IMS bearing grinding itself, and the rest of the engine, into oblivion? Most likely scenario in an M96 engine. Remember, even though the dual row bearing used in the 1999's was more robust than the later single row, they do still fail. You mention that the IMS had been changed 10K miles ago prior to your ownership. Maybe the replacement bearing was defective, or the installation was sketchy. Consider yourself lucky, you've been given notice that something is amiss and its most likely with you IMS bearing. I would IMMEDIATELY replace your IMS bearing, maybe consider an upgrade. I put a Vertex cylindrical roller bearing in my 1999 Boxster base, 5 times the load capacity and I was very happy with the result. Was going to do the same to my 1999 C2 Carrera, however, when I dropped the tranny I discovered a replacement engine with the unserviceable large single row bearing had been previously installed. Best of luck.
Sorry to see this. Whats the date of the IMSB replacement and with what brand? Do not start it again! Drop the sump and post a picture.
Many have had IMSB failures, replace the bearing and sell it immediately to some poor soul thinking he's good to go...
It was oem parts performed by a Porsche dealership here in CT. I have all receipts. RMS and IMS seals were done at the same time. I bought the car with 78,500 miles, changed the oil right away.
I agree, most likely is IMS.
If if at the track it went low pressure briefly would that contribute? The powder (think brake dust) seems inconsistent with nearly every post out there for IMS issues that show flakes, but I�m not going to chance things.
For it the drain plug, it is not magnetic, but I ran a magnet over the filter and that�s how I collected the small amount of �powder� shown in one of the pictures. It�s not much but it�s undeniably ferrous metal.
I had a piston rod bearing failure a few years back....are those bearing ferrous? If so, it could be that as well. My symptom in that case was an occasional puff of smoke on the track after a long sweeping right hander...eventually the engine blew up on that same long sweeping right hander
The first track outing I brought her to (Limerock), I topped off the oil and it was burning oil significantly after sitting and restarting before each following session. That went away as soon as I got home and drove a couple miles normally. Seems like that is common with oil filled to max
second outing at Palmer I had it at mid oil level. Ran flawlessly, zero smoke, but had a stumbling idle at the end of the day. Swapped plugs and coils, idle cleaned up to silky smooth. But given the turny track, with some compression zones (right turns in the layout I ran that day), I do wonder if I got low oil pressure a bit and caused something to wear. I�ve put about 40 miles on the new oil so I�m thinking pull the new filter and drop the pan to see if there�s more metal. Assuming yes, off to the local shop I trust
foe the dealer work, thoughts on them warranting their work in 2016 if it is the IMS? 10k miles with the dual row seems exceptionally soon for an issue.
Not a chance !! , The warranty period for Porsche replacement parts/labor is 2 years with unlimited mileage. Any "goodwill" help will be dependent on whether you are precieved and a past good customer AND believed to be a even better future customer.
I would only add that 99s are 5-chain engines and suffer from premature cam tensioner pad wear. I would ask OP to check cam deviation and consider any non-ferrous brown or black bits that would show up in the oil filter to be related to these pads. Even though none is showing in the filter today, it could have in the past. If, and it�s a big if, the pads are very badly worn, the chain can start digging into metal parts of the engine. If the pads are that bad, the cam deviation would show it, and you�d likely hear a lot of noise upon startup.
I'm sorry to hear of your difficulties. Those are my 2 favorite tracks right now. I hope you get it squared away and that I see you out there next year!
A bit of an update and some additional info. I pulled the filter a few mins ago. The new oil has about 100 miles on it before I parked it. No noticeable metal, but more non metallic green pieces. They�re brittle. Can split one with my fingernail. Picture attached.
A Porsche dealership changed out the IM$ bearing in your '99 996? Did they extract the old bearing with the engine still installed in the car? I thought Porsche dealerships wouldn't perform this type of replacement work. In the past, P dealers considered the bearing a part that could not be serviced. Has this position, long held by Porsche, changed?
This is why I would not change a double row bearing (I have not and will not touch the bearing in my early 2000 build C2). It seems to me we are hearing more and more reports of replacement bearings failing. If this is indeed your replacement bearing failing, I would bet the original bearing for this car, if still installed, would still be going strong. Good luck diagnosing and fixing this issue.
DreamCarrera, when I replaced my 1999 Boxster Base's IMS bearing at 72K miles, the original dual row bearing was wobbly on its center stud. I would guess that it had less than 5K miles in it before total failure and the catastrophic consequences for my engine. I had purchased the car with 52K miles, and had religiously changed the oil/filter at 4k mile intervals, and had dissected the filters and never found more than the odd flake or two of metallic material. Just be aware the dual row bearings are wear items and do fail, as the old saying goes, "you can pay me now or pay me later". The only problem with this as that the pay me later part implicates total rebuild of an engine damaged by IMS bearing swarf circulating through all the oil passages and moving parts. Your gamble.
Less than 5K miles before total failure...wow, what makes you think that your "wobbly" bearing would have lasted that long? Did you play the lottery when you fortuitously replaced your "wobbly" bearing at this mileage interval? Why did you replace the bearing at this interval and what makes you think you were so lucky...?
DreamCarrera, my experience results from having conducted a lot of research on this and other Porsche platforms. Other people's catastrophic engine failures inspired me to change out my 1999 C2 and 1999 Boxster IMS bearings. Both of these cars would have had the factory dual row bearing, and both had about 70K miles on their engines. Research had suggested 60K miles, about the same time a clutch change is due, was a good time to do the IMS bearing. So I decided to do the whole service on both cars. When I did the Carrera, I found it had a replacement engine with the 3rd generation larger single row IMS bearing so it was left in place as these have a less than 1% failure rate. When I did the Boxster, I found the factory dual row bearing in very wobbly condition, perhaps 5K miles was too generous. I'm an ex-Philadelphia Naval Shipyard machinist, so I have some degree of mechanical apprehension. Anyway, maybe it was just luck that I replaced that bearing when I did, but the point is that it was a factory dual row on a well maintained vehicle and it was failing, and it was going to cost a lot of many to make it right again. Also, the peace of mind changing out the IMS bearing gave me was worth the $400 for the Vertex cylindrical roller bearing I installed. People are free to do as they will with their Porsches, I'm just offering my experience in response to your questions.
Porsche did in fact sell a few "IMSB kits" but it was quickly dissipated from the catalogue.
Also "some" dealers would install aftermarket IMS bearing at customer request. The Porsche dealer I worked for would not (unless the customer provided his own part and all labor warranty was voided)...
Yes I know about those kits. Raby shows it once in a while but that is irrelevant. I`m just having a hard time picturing a Porsche dealer installing an aftermarket part inside and engine where HQ would be ok with.
Looks like they did not replace the bearing from what you are saying - all they did was a reseal of the IMS. Your car likely still has the original bearing in it as there are no factory IMS bearing replacements currently available.
For a short period, Porsche did offer a ceramic hybrid single row ball bearing replacement but the part disappeared from the PET several years ago. I have two of these kits in my office as proof they did exist at one time, but it's highly unlikely they were fitted by the dealership in our car. If you post a copy of the workorder, it should be easy to tell what exactly they did (or didn't do).
My January 2000 built Boxster S IMSB was failing in March 2003 when I removed the engine to send the case to LN Enginnering for 3.6L Nickies upgrade. I always changed the oil after 6,000 miles or less
That's cos you don't really understand the way dealers operate, let me explain a little bit.
Porsche Dealerships are independently owned Franchise Businesses. You can have a successful used car business, repair shop business, race car shop business, ect. and ADD a Porsche Franchise to your business that will have certain benefits and also certain rules to go with it. The Porsche Franchise doesn't dictate all the rules for your business, only the ones set out by the Franchise agreement. So basically each Porsche Dealership can be quite different in the things they do as a business. If they want to do aftermarket work, they can at their own risk without support from Porsche.
The Porsche Dealership I worked for was owned by Bruton Smith/Sonic Automotive who also owns 100 other Dealerships/Brands and 8 NASCAR Tracks which also has NHRA and IHRA Dragstrips..
Yup. We supply Retrofit kits and Solutions to dealerships both in the USA and Canada all the time. Many were our first customers even before independent shops as they were on the front line seeing these things fail before everyone else.
In the early days, one Porsche dealer went so far as sending out a mailer saying that the engine would fail unless they applied an LN IMS Retrofit product to it, having them install it.. They got in hot water pretty quickly.
People often forget what it was like in the days when we had first completed these procedures, kits, and tools. Back then the "hype" was that we could actually remove, and replace a bearing that the factory said wasn't serviceable with the engine assembled.
I remember one customer that bought a beautiful Blue 04 Targa, and in 05 with 4k miles the IMSB failed, I installed a complete factory crate motor in it ($30k), then in 06 the new crate motor IMSB failed at 9K miles, so I installed another new crate motor ($30k).
The customer was like "I sure am glad I haven't had to pay for this, ($60K) but is it going to happen again?" Luckily the last motor had the big 997 bearing in it, but at that time, it wasn't for sure it would prove to be reliable.
When I was researching the problem associated with bearing failure, several unfortunate owners posted pictures with a power dusted filter like what you shown. Once they removed the IMS flange and outer seal, this metal powdered substance was also caked around the inside of the bearing and probably circulating all throughout the engine judging what was found in the filter. Most of the engine expects said replacing the bearing and "flushing the system" would not prevent engine failure. That was enough proof for me to have my investment protected. I decided to go with the IMS Solution with a certified installer. Thankfully, my original bearing had not gotten to the stage were it started to shed metal. It was time for me to change out the clutch kit anyway and so I moved forward with the deal. They also replaced the RMS and AOS too. Best decision I made with these cars.
See emphasized - is that the current consensus? If you get to the point where you catch silver metal in the oil similar to the OP then the engine is terminal as a result and you might as well not bother replacing the bearing or trying to save it?
IMHO, it's best the engine is fully rebuilt and have all parts addressed.
We have a strong consensus that many shops have installed new bearings in failing engines. Even with engines that are still operational, but metal contaminated from a previous failing bearing. This is why Jake Raby requires pre-qualification from certified installers and strongly recommends it to all DiYr's. They have found that installing a fresh IMS bearing in a Porsche engine that is contaminated with metal will not only take out the new bearing, but the engine with it. No winners when that happens... it hurts the owner, the shop's reputation, the bearing manufacturer as well as the patent holder (i.e. Jake Raby).
Yeah, I�m familiar with the pre-qual requirements for the LN bearings and IMS solution - was just curious about experiences from others.
I�m sure that many owners have found metal in their oil, replaced the bearing and flushed the oil, and then either sold the car or kept it. There are a tons of used 996s on the market with aftermarket bearings - no way to tell if they were replaced proactively or reactively, though.
