Should Fix's add to the Value of a car

I am trying to get an understanding of used car prices If a person is selling say a 2001 Porsche 911 Carerra KBB suggests a private party price of 17K Seller suggest a selling price of 25K and states that car has an IMS/RMS Fix, new clutch and fly wheel and one or two other maintenance items. Should that dramatically increase the price of the car or is it an accepted that for them to even get the KBB price of 17K they had to make it driveable and so at least as it pertains to engine mounts and clutch and flywheel that those had to be fixed and should not be added to the sales price. IMS/RMS I guess are debatable and possibly cost could be prorated or shared. Am I thinking this through correctly? Thanks

KBB suggests but isn't always reflective of the market. For example, I had an e46 M3 with 72k miles on it, KBB suggests that car is worth 9-12k when realistically cars with over 100k are the ones selling for that. I sold mine for way more and it had an unknown mechanical history besides what I did. The work he had done is roughly 4k give or take from a good indy mechanic. I can see it adding some value or at least helping the car retain more of its value. Depending on mileage, spec and condition I could see that being somewhere between KBB and 22k or so.

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The following is my opinion. KBB may be okay for a Toyota Camry, Subaru Legacy, etc., but useless for an older Porsche like the one you are mentioning.

I have never found KBB to be even close to accurate.. didnt matter what car.. YMMV

So then how does one gauge what is a fair deal. There has to be some sort of metric?

A lot depends upon the IMS bearing that was used. If it was the IMS Solution, it would be worth more. A recent clutch, RMS, or water pump, might add some. But none of that would add a lot. IMS Solution might be worth a couple of thousand to me. A clutch might be worth a thousand to me. Water pump might add $300 to me...IF they used a Porsche OEM pump.(or Piersberg?) It would also depend upon their definition of “recent” too. I as looking at a car recently that the owner’s definition of recent was 2015 and unknown miles.

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Look at similar cars for sale and see what they are listed at. While Bring A Trailer tends to trend a little high it�s an easy place to see sold history. What are the details on the car you are looking at?

2001 Porsche Carrera 61K miles, Silver with black leather interior, 6 speed, manual transmission IMS bearing replaced in May 2019 with clutch, RMS and new motor mounts, Second owner - Current owner since 55K miles What value would be fair. Seller wants 24K. Prices seem to vary for similars from 19K to 30K

Given how common that spec is (silver with black) I'd say he's pretty high. But very recent major service makes it better than the typical CL junk. I'd say $21-22 would be pretty fair for the both of you.

If I am selling a car and someone even brings up kbb I am just hanging up the phone. Shows they are a noob are not ready to buy, It can be accurate on cars that are under 3 years old. Anything else is a total waste of time. You have to look nationwide at sales prices, completed auctions and remember colors and options are huge in the Porsche world. Most 996’s on the market have a lot of deferred maintenance. If you want a properly setup one it’s gonna cost you. The saying is that a 996 is a 30k car you are gonna pay that now or later. But you will pay it. I agree with above in very good condition should be around 22k-24k cash in hand value.

I'm always suspicious when a bearing gets replaced and then immediately the car goes up for sale. Why was it replaced, who did it, what was used and what was the condition of the old bearing?

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Its only by asking questions and making mistakes that a noob becomes a non-noob. So next time perhaps don't hang up on them but rather educate them like you did me and perhaps that might even turn into a sale. That aside I do see your point and I am a noob and am not rushing into anything but it is a very complicated area and I appreciate your input. She stated that when a prior PPI was done those were the suggestions made and they felt they would get better selling price to fix it rather than leave it undone and have to deal with a lower price and an angry purchaser. Not sure what was used

Good on you, Kbb frustrates me to no end. It’s like the bbb better business bureau. It’s not real and meaningless. I have bought and sold a bunch of cars. People will waste half a day of mine trying to buy a Tacoma for kbb ( which used to be half of what the trucks would actually sell for) Up until about 7 years ago E30 m3’s were 6k on kbb. It’s caused me such a headache over the years. Just keep asking questions! These are very complex purchases and they are always available. It usually takes 3-6 months to find a good one at a deal.

I purchased my car (2003 Targa) just over a year ago. Did the IMSB, RMS, Clutch, water pump, plugs and coils along with the PPI. Only scoping from the plug side though. The Indy that did the work showed me the video of the bore scope showing no signs of any type of scoring. Put about $5K miles before selling last week. I didn't lose out on anything. Didn't make much either. Sold the car for $23K and I think the new owner has a great car that will last him many years to come. So, yes, I think it is fair to say the maintenance upgrades do add to the selling price.

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It definitely is a little overwhelming but for now I am happy to have my 718 PDK to play around with while I learn. I have started to follow the auctions on Bring a trailer. The "interrogations" are interesting and can help expose issues that I might not have even thought of.

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With these cars I don't blame people for doing it before sale. I sold one last year for a detailing client of mine, every single call or email was "has the IMS been replaced" and then radio silence when I said no but you are welcome to PPI and we can negotiate from there. The few that did respond said they would absolutely not even consider it without the IMS done. I thought it was dramatic but people are scared of these things. It is a shame that people would not even come look at it and it was in excellent shape. To the OP for what its worth I paid $18k for my cab with 50k miles on it and no work done, had it all done and if I were to list now I would probably list it hoping to get $20k or so.

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It is interesting that more sellers do not do PPIs. Certainly if you believe in your car it can make it a whole lot more attractive with a positive PPI rather than buyers staying away from your auction just because the thought of arranging a individual PPI on every car you are interested in is too expensive and overwhelming. Even if you choose not to fix every issue, at least a buyer will have a sense of what they are looking at cost wise

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The early 3.4 engines are highly susceptible to bore scoring, be sure to have a through PPI before buying!

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I would prefer to buy a car & install the IMSB of my choice.

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While I know my car was in excellent condition, the guy that purchased it did not want to do a PPI. I suggested that he get one on a couple of occasions, and recommended a couple if independent shops in town. I could not force the guy to do the PPI, and I think he was overwhelmed by the paint and this being his dream car. It worries me that people don't do these PPI's, and I have seen a number of new members who have purchased a lemon and a PPI would have shown them that. I also think if the seller is doing the PPI, there could be a conflict of interest. The 996TT I will be buying soon will get a PPI from the Indy shop of my choice.

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I always thought it was the opposite? ON FSI he says its less common but still occurs in earlier engines.

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So easy to over come this during negotiations...You educate the buyer and negotiate getting it done or credit buyer for having it done. I'd want to know what came out and be the one to decide what goes back in. To many people replace the bearing on a car that was never pre-qualified for a retro fit, that helps no one in the end!

996s can be anywhere from $15-$35k depending on year, model (C4Ss seem to be on the rise). I bought a 99 C2 with factory aero that was owned by a PCA member, had everything proactively done, all receipts since new and 71k miles for $21K. It had taken him 6 months to sell it. Great car. I sold it on BaT in a week for $25K after owning it for two years and adding 10K miles. IMSB replacements are only one of a long list of maintenance items to look at. When buying a 996, I looked for maintenance history, tried to get a feel for the seller (you�re buying the seller as much as the car). If I get any weird vibes, I walk. While a seller having a PPI is nice, I�d still insist on getting my own done. If seller is open to you doing one, that�s always a good sign. If they try to push back, that�s a red flag. See if you can drive 6 or 7 cars. They can vary widely in driving feel. You�ll get to know what to look for. Plenty out there. A good car with a good history should command mid $20Ks.

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I mean I did that, people didn't respond. They didn't want to hear it, it was either done or they didn't want to hear about it. The guy that ended up buying it we spent hours talking and going over everything.

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That�s what I thought too, after reading the Hartech white paper. In summary, contributing factors to bore scoring has to do with temperature and oil protection, and the larger engines generate more heat, yet have nearly the same or similar cooling capacity and oil capacity.

I think IMS and a few other larger type repairs should positively affect the value of the car, but by how much, who really knows. Either way, I have one of, if not the cleanest mid mileage 996 C4S in the country for sale right now. LN IMS, AOS, RMS, Water Pump, Alternator, and many other things I know I'm forgetting but have receipts for...And I still have the car. Tons of interest but no deposit. I'm finding out people are more scared of the number of owners than they are of the IMS bearing...if it isn't one thing its another.

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Some cars are just hard to sell. I listed my 2010 GTI for the going rate, had 125k miles on but a great maintenance history, rear bumper was damaged and needed to be replaced and I still sold it in a few days for asking price. I've been back and forth on selling my Audi S3 for a year now, I've made several ads and had almost 0 interest and its always the best value/mileage deal within 200 miles when I list it. I've sold rollers and rebuilt title cars quicker.

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I sold my 2000 Boxster S for $11k the day I listed it. I think it has a lot to do with lower prices = larger audience and an easier purchase. But who really knows...Might have something to do with the time of year as well. Either way its frustrating but hey what can you do. Lower the price??? I guess that's one way. Or wait.

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Where do you list your car?

Be skeptical of any maintenance done immediately before sale because, no, the seller can't "pass the bill" to the buyer. There are so many factors into a Porsches value beyond milage and condition. If "cream of the crop" 996s go for $35,000 and "basement bargain" 996s go for $12,000, then there is your range. ​​​​IMO up-to-date maintenance and trouble areas addressed justifies higher market value, appropriately adjusted for mileage of course. As 808 said - if someone literally just replaced the IMSB and is selling.. caveat emptor may not be enough.

Seriously, I have talked to a bunch of sellers. Older folks who don’t even know what an ims is. 90% of people know nothing of this. There are forums who spread euphoria no matter what the car is. I had an e90 m3. People buy those cars and tow them directly to a shop to have rod bearings done. It’s been proven to be about a 1 % occurrence. Seriously it’s almost all fear mongering by people who want to sell you stuff. They are sponsors of forums who, when they cannot sell bearings anymore decide there is an interval with zero evidence then all of the sudden BORE SCORING...do you hear a tick? You need a rebuild! Don’t believe anything you hear. Anyone questions us. Well we are providing information! This is true, but also a fox in your own self made henhouse.

I have 52k miles on my stock 996, and have not had IMS, RMS or clutch done. If I trade up to a TT or GT3, I will probably sell the 996 as-is, expecting mid to high teens, rather than have the IMS/RMS/clutch work done just before sale. I doubt I would get back 100 cents on the repair investment, and as some of you have expressed: (1) you'd rather manage the work with your favorite indy; (2) you wouldn't trust someone having the work done just before sale. I would share openly everything on cam variation timing, AOS vacuum tests, UOA results, oil filter tear-down videos, over-rev's (none), maintenance strategy/history, and let the right buyer get comfortable with that. My indy will tell them "just drive the car and enjoy it". We'll see what happens if I ever find that unicorn TT or GT3...

Here is the problem, all of these parts do fail, you can argue the rates all you want but they do fail. BMW rod bearings, sub frames or vanos and insert any other manufacturer and you can find an era where there was an item that could cause catastrophic failure. The main issue is IF one of these items fails it doesn't just get the part replaced its spend 10k on a replacement engine or 20k on a rebuilt engine.

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I think you'd get more for your car (as is) if listed on BAT. My .02, there's no one right answer to this question.

FWIW, KBB is worthless for specialty cars like these. It's more intended for the much larger quantity of mass-produced cars like Camry, mini-vans, etc. I think for a good condition, well optioned C4S, with under 65k miles it had a suggested sale price of something like $21k. Yeah, ok. If you're holding your breath for that price, you're going to be waiting a while (probably forever).

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KBB doesn't mean much for the 996. They valued mine at about 10k less than what I paid for it. I paid top of the market for mine, but it had some things I really like and the car just "called" to me, so I went with it

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BaT does seem to be the place to sell a 996

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I agree...assuming everything else being equal (miles, year, etc..).....I would be willing to pay a little more for a car with a well documented history of repairs and maintenance.... When I bought mine (used) years ago...that was exactly what tilted the balance.... maintenance and repair records since the car was new...my 996 has every single oil change, mod and repair documented since the car was driven off the dealer...

from seller's viewpoint, he/she thinks proactive maintenance should add value to the car. from buyer's perspective, it adds no value. It all depends on your perspective. I see recommendations on Rennlist and other forums all the time to SUBTRACT the cost of repairs from the asking price based on items not performed (especially the IMS bearing). If that approach was taken for every needed repair some cars would be given away for free. While I would love to recoup the money I've sunk into my cars the reality is I won't. IMO if you want to recoup the money you sink in them, keep the car and drive it.

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that's another talking point (not specific to pesuazo) - I DIY all my own work (as do many on this forum). But somehow I think most potential buyers would be put off by a DIYer when it comes to vehicle maintenance and repairs. IMO records from a DIY seller mean very little to most buyers. Thoughts?

I have some wall hangers, from various drivers I've supported at the track,, Some folks see that and assume I can work on anything.. ( I mostly do road race and oval dirt track... ) Just because I can care for and feed a twin cam Cosworth or a 406 outlaw motor,, doesn't mean I know them inside out. Now if they want to get me out there,, even after I tell them I have no idea what their issue is,, well, all I can do is stop by their pit and take a look and see if I spot anything obvious.. Sometimes its pretty generic stuff that screws up a race car,, bad wiring , bad plumbing ,, I've moved in to some pretty expensive cars as crew chief, not because I could tear the car down to the last bolt but because I am thorough on pre-race prep and I don't get DNF's.. NO telling what other people are going to find important..

"Fix's" are most important to the current owner. Buyers love them, but don't expect to pay for them - they want the car to be "perfect - as is" And only want to reduce the price for the "problems" they can find. There are a few items that you can add to the selling price, such as "The Solution" (because it quantifiable) - but you won't get "full value" (i.e. -your cost) for it. Regular replacement/retrofit bearings? Nah... it may help sell the car, but you're not going to get a premium because of it. New/Perfect paint is worth something, but once again, you're not going to get/recoup anything near what it cost. Same thing goes for water-pumps, clutches, AOS, starters, etc... It's a buyers market and it will be for quite a while if not forever. The bottom line is, you spend the $ to make the car the best/most drive-able it can be, not to sell it. If selling it is what you're after, you will be under water.

One thing that nobody has asked is "where is this care listed for sale?". Makes a difference. California guys seem to talk about all these mint <$20k cars...well sorted cars seem to go for much higher on the East Coast, particularly up north. THe fact that it is a 2-owner car with, I assume, good history is also an adder.

Probably beating a dead horse, but OP, there should be a sticker somewhere that says the IMS bearing was updated. Sometimes under engine deck lid, sometimes door jam, sometime under frunk lid.

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To me, if you do a lot of DIY, and you are an enthusiast good with a wrench and receipts to show (parts)...that is worth something...and it would tilt the balance towards purchasing your vehicle....compared to a "similar" vehicle with little or no history of repairs/maintenance.....the caveat here is that I know "something" about these cars, and I cannot be "bulsited" by a seller..... .....

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+1 - often a Rennlister can sell to another �lister and get a little more value that way. There�s a bit of a [good] reputation about the regulars on this site.