My Big Bet: $5k '02 Targa (some assembly required)

My Big Bet 2014 - will the $5k 996 Targa bring me happiness or madness? It was a day like any other day for a addicted-to-cars kind of guy like me. I had nothing "fun" to turn wrenches on after selling my last typ-964 Targa and stepping up into the big-payment leagues of the 991. My dedicated track-car (Audi 4kq 20vT) was broken more often than it ran and needing the bottom end worked on; so I did what any non-rational person would do.. troll Craig's List. Paraphrasing a lot - I stumbled over an add for a 2002 Carrera Targa with a disassembled engine due to smoke-on-cold-start issue and the owner was just wanting OUT. The car was at the dealer and he was asking $5k for the roller and $2,5k for the engine in pieces. Figuring this was a scam to be sure - I noticed that the dealer mentioned was MY dealer where I bought and service my 991. A quick phone call later revealed - this was on the up and up. Car was clean, motor needs work. So I dashed off to put my own eyeballs on it and pulled the trigger. Primary intent was to become my new dedicated DE car - which isn't ideal for a Targa but it's not like running a cabrio out there either. Certainly the trans/breaks/suspension was worth the asking price if I end up parting it out - so here I am two feet in, and I'm still smiling. If after rebuild the engine grenades - I think I can just go Renegade LS conversion and solve any Targa weight penalty with a few extra hundred torque/hp. So stay tuned - I will update from time to time about progress. I already snagged a good deal on replacement rings sets @$41/ea - shipped; and the rest of the gaskets/consumables like head-bolts are another $500 or so. So next up is liners and machining. Wish me luck! Question to the forum: does ANYONE have a deck-plate/torque-plate for the M96.03 that is loanable/rentable? If not would anyone want to point me to the machine shop that HAS one and knows how to use it? I have learned the HARD WAY that it's best to machine and hone using a deck-plate and ideally be at 100c too. Granted not on Porsche rebuilds but the theory isn't platform specific� Having a custom deck-plate made I was quoted $1k which will be my fall-back plan.

He contacted me before he sold it to you. I bought the "other" failed engine that he had for the car. If you decide not to repair that one and go for a V8, etc, I'll buy the core. :-) How are you going to hone a lokasil bore?

Gotta wonder why a porsche dealer isn't fixing it up, but $5K is a solid deal with 02+ roller

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Err I thought there only was one company in england that can hone them via chemical etching?

You're living my dream. Would love to find a roller like that, priced like that and go full bore on a Renegrade LS conversion. Pull it into the garage and start putting together my parts list. From what I've read the LS conversion is a well thought out and executed upgrade that will add useable performance and most likely years of low cost and trouble-free ownership......who could ask for more! Have fun with your project, either approach you take it should be a boat load of fun

Whiteout, what say you?

As to the question of honing a Lokasil bore - without getting too nerdy as it's late - Sunnen has some very good articles on the process of finish honing bores that put over-simplified explains how the finish hone is a multi-stage process involving exposing the right amount/shape of the non-alu material bonded in into those walls to achieve the correct surface. Again over-simplifying but it is somewhat reverse of normal where you bore to a mirror finish first and then remove (aka: roughening) the bore to a specific size and shape range for the particles being exposed. That being said - my intent is to bore and sleeve vs. trying to oversize without the use of sleeves. I asked about the torque-plate to satisfy my own BTDT experience with other blocks that ended up being cold-start smokers after rebuild because a perfect round-bore when cold on a naked block is very much not round or straight - when inside a running assembled motor at temp and pressure. There's a really good article about the effects in a URL below. I don't espouse it is for everyone - but for me - I'm a believer. Please no flames.. http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep1...2010_42-48.pdf Sarki - the Renegade path is REALLY attractive, but I see that as an evolutionary path. Personally I would like to find a C4S roller to do that with since a 500/500 motor (easy in LS land) would I believe be better served splitting the torque 4 ways vs. just two. That and I miss flogging my old typ-964 C4 around on snow so it would be good to have the option again when I am in the norther climates.

Honestly, go LSx with the car. For the price the M96 is to rebuild, you can have a complete LS1 AND conversion parts. Then you'll have more power than a GT3 and drop weight. Here's a quick rundown of the swap: http://996ls1.blogspot.com/

For $5k you seem to be in a win/win situation whatever you do. Just curious how many miles on your roller. It looks extremely clean in pix.

I'll be watching this thread either way you go. Good luck!

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What he said!!! I am now officially obsessed with this option. The potential to build a low cost/reliable beast is soooooo appealing! Either way my brother, you've got lots of fun in your future with this project and at a very reasonable cost of admission.

So Renegade gets $8k for a complete kit. What would be typical labor costs to have your local shop do the conversion. And what would your 3.6 motor be worth assuming still running excellent no issues and around 70k miles. Absolutely no plans to do this just pure curiosity.

Another vote here for LS swap.

Do the LS swap and also rebuild the M96. Money you make on selling the rebuilt M96 would pay for most of your LS1 swap. Keeping final budget under $10K would be a great goal if your wife lets you..

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Exactly what I was thinking.

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Call Millennium Technologies, or you can go the complete liners method for a few $ more with Charles at LN Engineering (assuming he's still doing that) Mike

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Yup. I suspect you could make a good profit just parting it out, but projects are way more fun. As much as I love the flat six.........I would vote LSX as well. Especially for a track car, you just can't beat the HP to dollars equation. I've been talking with a Pelican that's doing the swap right now with the Renegade kit and a LS3 Erod crate motor, he has nothing but glowing reviews of the Renegade kit and the ease that things are coming together.

I wouldn't have the heart to sell a freshly rebuilt engine if I never had it running. Its not fair to the buyer. Good score on the car. If you seen another one pleaase let me know. A.friend of mine is looking for a projext 996. Good luck on this project, I did the same thing.as you. Bought a nin runner 996 on a wgim

Well I think the final decision is to rebuild the M96.03 and put a few thousand street miles on it and then see if a "known-good, rebuilt by Dealer & documented" motor has enough value to offset the net-up to move next season to an LS conversion. I talked with the Renegade guys today and to have THEM do it, to a track-ready engine spec of 430hp which would still pass emissions for multi-use is roughly $30k investment for everything new. Having done American V8's into German cars myself before (I built the Audi LT-1Q years ago, and it still runs around Colorado to this day) I rather like the idea of all new. So parts-only new is still about $15k. My hope would be that a known-good documented M96.03 engine rebuilt would have a value of at least $10k but who knows what the market will bear when we get there. Anyone want a track-only caged Audi 4000 Quattro with Wide-Body UrQ flares on it and a 3B 20v Turbo engine running VEMS fully programable injection & ignition? The Lava machine isn't pretty but it is very quick. It just doesn't quite have the long-legs I need on the big tracks down here in Texas.. I just HATE catching the 'Vettes and Turbos in the turns and watch them walk away from me on the main straight...

How many miles on the roller? You would be leaving money on the table putting a fresh engine into a 100K mile vs 30K mile roller.

It's a 100k mile chassis. and the PO took the gamble on a used-motor w/40k miles - ended up with one that worked but smoked due to scoring. It's worth the risk to me - I know the final destination for the chassis is track machine anyway so this has little to do with money-logic at this point. The value question was debating the motor separate from the chassis as having increased value as a rebuilt with a few thousand miles or a rebuilt with zero miles. Mostly Rhetorical.

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430hp is a stock LS3. You can get (or at least I can) an LS7 for less than an LS3. The LSx is such a stout motor, you could pick up a used engine and upgrade the internals for track use. If you go the LS1 route, you can do the swap for under $10k. TX has emissions testing?

Just one data point, but I believe the guy that I know building an LS3 996 was able to get $2k for his M96 with suspected IMS failure.

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Depends on the registered county. mike

Ahh. Yeah, the full motor/exhaust/ecu/wiring from GM that's 50-state legal is the easiest way to go (you pay for the simplicity). Honestly, I would read into what is needed per local regulations to make the car compliant and do it aftermarket/build something vs. dumping money into an M96 with the intention to eventually swap to an LSx.

I believe 50-state legality would be a toughie for the Cali boys unless Renegade has CARB exemption. 49-state legal I think is relatively a straight-forward proposition. Some of the GM e-Rod crate motor packages will pass emissions in 49-states when using their cats etc. The tricky part can be if your state does the visual inspection as well as sniff-test or rolling road. If would take a spectacularly dumb emissions-tech to not-recognize a V8 motor that says GM all over it as a non-stock engine. My own experience with this (stuffed an LT-1 into an Audi 5000 Quattro) when living in Chicago was that they didn't care. Quattro meant no rolling road (they only had 2 wheel), and so it only had to pass a static low and high idle sniff test. Down here in TX - I don't think there'd be much hassle at all even in Harris Cty where you have to pass the rolling-road... Unless you try it sans-cats.

Update - here we are in the 5th week of the project and finally can report on milestones. a. Motor case halves split and readied for machine-shop COMPLETE b. Bore sleeves ordered from LASleeve & delivered COMPLETE c. Stock ring to ChromeMoly bore compatibility verification COMPLETE d. Machine shop researched, verified and selected COMPLETE e. Motor case halves taken to machine shop COMPLETE f. Pistons sent over to PolyDyne for ceramic coating COMPLETE g. Gaskets, head bolts, head gaskets, etc ordered COMPLETE In the NOT-DONE category I am struggling to find a specification for the exact bore dimensions and the wear limit values. If anyone can contribute a known-good piston to bore clearance specification or the exact bore specification that would be really useful. Next Steps: 1. Pistons from PolyDyne sent to machine shop end 2nd wk April 2. Machine shop work completed including final plateau hone to the spec mid 3rd wk April 3. All parts back to dealer for engine assembly end 3rd wk April 4. Engine assemble and install end 4th wk April So in theory this thing might be running by early May, unless we hit major snags anywhere or there's a sudden rush at the dealer and my priority drops on the time allocation for their master tech to complete the engine assembly. Final decision was to keep the engine a stock 3.6 displacement. Stock pistons, stock rods using ARP rod bolts and new rings, new rod bearings and obviously the new sleeved bores (all 6).

Tax-Day Update ! Complete: a) Sleeves are installed into the case halves - pending finish hone b) Pistons are at the machinist having been done up at PolyDyne c) Gaskets, bearings etc received d) ARP rod-bolts ordered Next Steps: 1. Finish hone to spec 2. Collect from machinist (photograph) & deliver to dealer for install 3. ARP rod-bolts arrive approx April 22 4. Assuming engine assembly now pushed back to 4th week April.

Well here we are nearing the end of the 11th week and feeling pretty good except for being 1 month behind my original project estimates. Dealer reports engine is re-assembled to full long-block now, and are forecasting having accessories hung and the engine installed by Friday. The quality of the machine-work was gorgeous, and outside of a minor glitch with the case-half locating dowel-pins going missing (easily replaced), the mechanic reports the re-assembly has been problem free. Obviously the proof will be in the pudding once it is running & run-in a bit. A comp-check and leak-down should confirm we are back to within spec. I must give props to Harold's Automotive Machine Shop in Richmond, TX. His workmanship on the sleeves and final finish were spectacular; and the execution speed and price charged had me walking away feeling it was very good value.

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Renegade's parts aren't emissions-related, but I did recently read the saga of a gent who installed an eRod into an older Corvette and the flaming hoops he went through to get it registered in CA. Even with the CARB blessing on the crate motor, it was still a tremendous hassle. After reading it, I'd be much less likely to consider a transplant here in the PDRC (People's Dem. Republic of California).

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Awesome. Did you find/make the plate?

They can do a leakdown now and another one after initial break in. It would be a good indicator of how everything breaks in. It would be a very simple thing to do with the engine out. I did one before the engine went it just to make sure all is well.

Torque-Plate: I talked with the machinist a lot about the torque plate. In my case the value of the torque plate was offset by the crank shaft assembly still being at the dealer. So in order for the torque plates to work correctly you'd need to really have the two-halves mated and the crank carrier in there and THEN final hone etc... That sounded far more complex and costly than was worth pursuing rebuilding the engine to stock-spec. On a race motor, yes that would have been done. Sometimes cost wins out over value.

I agree. A torque plate is certainly overkill on a 320HP M96. I was wondering though, if you later go with the LSx swap (great idea) doesnt that limit your tracking options?

^ Seems like it would stick you firmly into X.

I was just assuming that since he's in Houston and will now be racing a 911 he would be in the PCA or something. I must admit I am quite ignorant about all the racing and class rules. A heavily optioned Targa doesnt seem like it would be a good track car anyway. Since the car is so nice, it might be a better idea to fix and sell it, or just enjoy it.

Well the car is done, and drove home last night. Performance fits nice between my bone-stock '83 944 and my bone stock '13 Carrera S. Interestingly since I haven't logged much seat time in a 996, I have the following observations: a. Relative to the earlier typ-964s I've owned, this 996 shift linkage is quite rubbery feeling. Not sure if that is the norm or if that is a wear issue. b. Engine runs great, no leaks, still in break in. Has good power according to the Master Tech. To me the engine feels a bit peaky in delivery - assuming that is due to my right foot not being familiar with the accel curve of the 996 throttle. c. Dampers on the car are worn... rear end squats heavily on moderate accel. Need to decide if she is a stay or flip car before I drop PSS9's in there - else it's Billi Pro Kit I think The car drives nice, so far the only thing not working is the key fob to lock/unlock the car. I need to also get some tires on her before I render the keep/flip decision. We're still on-budget though so I am happy.

Thanks for the update .Just to verify- the engine has La Sleeves and stock pistons that were coated ? If you don't mind sharing: what clearance was used for the piston to cylinder and did you use Porsche piston rings or aftermarket ? Thank you Dave

Correct: stock pistons, with heat and friction coatings redone. ARP rod bolts. New stock bearings, new OEM Goetze rings for the '02 3.6 motor & LASleeve standard sleeves (all 6 of them). For other data, reach out to me via PM. I can tell you what decisions we made since there was no reference information available. Deciding on those numbers was the most stressful aspect of the project.

Well - the car is all done and running/driving. I can happily report the engine is smooth and powerful and meeting my expectations. The Dealer's lead-mechanic that did the work was also very pleased with the outcome. Unfortunately we ended up having to go back in to replace a failed-alternator after the fact and the key-head no longer would talk to the ECU and then a new battery was also needed which drove up my totals a bit unexpectedly - but I am still running only 30% over my ideal budget which makes this still feel like good value. Unexpected surprise - the car came with the FabSpeed X-pipe & 200-cell cat setup. Bummer it has the stock mufflers hanging off it - but the sound is pretty good. Currently have a couple hundred miles of break-in. Odd 996 things I was un-aware of and find annoying.. Are there solutions I wonder: a) I hate the auto-door locks and the subsequent double pull of the interior release to get out. Is there a way to disable? b) There seems to be some suspension rattle over small expansion joints, or ruts. It sounds like upper mount noise if this were an old Audi/VW... What's the common finding for those of you with 100k on your chassis? c) The intelligence of the window drop, to allow the door to open and close seems a bit chaotic on the driver's side. It always drops and stays dropped when opening the door using the interior latch. Exterior latch it always drops - but then randomly decides to go back up before the door is closed if you take pressure off the handle. Operator error? It's a bit surreal to have the 996 sitting next to the 991 in the garage. I came to the conclusion very quickly I don't need two of them, even with the fun of having a manual again (my 991 is PDK), and the fresh air of the big targa top.

how much did everything cost?

a. auto lock - is a dealer programing thing. b. Often drop links if it is a "lighter" rattle. c. sounds like the micro switch in the outer door handle may be loose/broken.

Costs - I ended up right at about $9k including full engine (did valve seals and lapping as well that I didn't forecast) and the extra $1k involved in the key head replacement and alt replacement post-facto. So call it $8k to do the engine which was labor, machining, sleeves, ARP rod-bolts, rings, rod bearings, head bolts, all gaskets seals and the other consumable stuff. Oh that includes the piston ceramic & friction coatings too. fpb111 - thanks for the heads up. I would classify it as a light rattle vs a thunk/thud. It definitely does not sound like a broken shock (BTDT in forest rallies). I will check those links very carefully.

a) My door pulls work first time and yours should too. May be related to c). b) There should not be rattles in the suspension. Be suspicious of the drop links and sway bar bushes. Fortunately these replacement parts are not terribly expensive. c) There is a problem. The window should stay down until the door is shut. When you close the door with the window all the way up it start to damage the seal. Microswitches are usually the culprit.

Nice to hear you have resurrected the targa and it didn't cost you silly $ to do so. If I had a 991 in my garage, I'd boot the 996 too. Priced right I'd think you will have a quick sale.