996 prices are on the rise.

Here in Canada, (especially Quebec and Ontario), the prices for a 2002-2006 996 non turbo are definitely going up. I am witnessing an increase in asking prices on average of at least $5000 more, over the last 3 yrs. I think it has to do with a few factors: -The supply here is down (supply and demand) therefor choice and availability are limited. -Also I think with the advent of the new models (turbo only) the older naturally aspirated models are becoming more desirable, similar to what happened with the 993 prices after a couple of years of 996 (1999+) sales. Another possibility is the improving economy. Any thoughts on this subject?

I'm starting to see the prices going up on low miles 996 cars. I think you're right... because of supply and demand. You can still find high mileage 996 mk1 for well under $20,000. But if you're talking Turbo or better, good luck with that.

I looked at this one a month ago, 2002 Targa. After it wasn't selling, the price went up by $2,000 last week. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-Porsche...FYvH9p&vxp=mtr Maybe its the spring-time surge. On the other hand, maybe demand is growing. Where else do you get a $90K car in excellent condition for $20K?

I'm sure we all wish 996 prices were going up, and one can always find an exception to the norm........but sorry, they're not appreciating. As much as I like and enjoy my 996, it's a mass produced, used car that is still depreciating.

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This is the pattern every spring. Prices go up a bit and we get threads about how 996s are finally on the rise I was just skimming my local CL listings and it seemed to me that prices are higher than I expect. We can always hope it's the beginning of something, but I expect come Sept/Oct we'll see the usual 2-5k drop.

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I agree with you on all but this point. I think overall they are done as the values have been pretty stable for a few years. The variation now really comes down to options and condition.

you actually think the new cars (approx 4-5 times the price of a NA 996) turbo only have any effect on 996 prices? I thnk there will be a day when the headlights on 996s will be seen as rare and innovative. 996s are a bargain

Judging from what I'm seeing lately on Bring a Trailer, the OP may very well be right. Right now a '99 aero package with 75k is at $24k with 3 days remaining and a clean well maintained '00 cab with 99k sold for $22.5. So one can hope the trend continues. (at least those of us who already own one)

It's the time of year...Come October, back down. I'm seeing (several) cars that have been on the market for almost a year. Prices trickle down and then get relisted $2-8K higher in some cases.

I had my 99 C2 with 82,000 miles listed for $20k last fall and it didn't sell. In fact, there was virtually no interest. I had one inquiry and the first question the guy asked was if I was willing to drop the price. I told him I was not interested. Haven't decided if I'm going to try selling it again this spring, but I'm not going to give it away. These cars if well maintained are worth at least that much.

We have to use data analytics to determine pricing. Too many variables. Even natural disaster events, stock market, TV shows can alter the prices of cars. Used car dealers such as CarMax have long known that data analytics are what's needed to make money in the used car market. That said, I cannot imagine 996 pricing ever dropping any lower than it was over the last 5 years. Every other Porsche is at least $20,000 these days. There are still a few deals out there, but I think they are going to less and less over time.

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That's strong. I bought my 99 two months ago for $21k. 72k miles, LN IMS, AOS, clutch, flywheel, waterpump all done 3 years/10k miles ago. Factory aero, LSD, and 19" champion wheels. It was pristine with all receipts.

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I'm more amused than convinced by any single party that proclaims to know.

Good luck finding any air cooled Porsche 911 under $30 to $35K. And forget about a 356. The 996 has more power, AC that actually works and is a tremendous bargain right now. This will tend to drive up prices. I see these cars going for $30K in the next few years.

1985 Carrera for $22K https://honolulu.craigslist.org/mau/cto/6009908328.html 1975 Vert for $25K https://honolulu.craigslist.org/big/cto/6012086248.html 1975 RSR Clone $18K https://honolulu.craigslist.org/big/cto/6017651242.html

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Porsches seem to be cheaper in hawaii. Not sure why other than "Cars are cheaper here because they are beat to death by the poor roads. Tires get shredded by sharp, lava cinders and you need more repairs, again due to the poor roads. The salt air causes corrosion, not just in rusty body panels, but also wreaks havoc on electrical connectors. Add in rodents that love to chew on wires and that is why used cars can be cheaper here. They are not a bargain. Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/hawai...#ixzz4b58BMbs6 "

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Do scams count? https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/...039341194.html

Its a beautiful scam, though..

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Here's 5 year data on the Rennlist 996 popular 1999 Carrera:

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Wake up, wake up......you're dreaming.

Economics lesson....the price of 996s will go up sooner or later. If a consumer wants a 911, they want a 911. There is no direct substitute product. The prices of all 911s pre 996 have risen dramatically. Virtually all comparable 911s prior to the 996 currently cost 100% more or even more than that. A 964 with 75k miles is gonna cost you $50,000 today, the same car sold for $25k in 2008. However, the 996 prices will NOT rise significantly because there are a lot of 997s at reasonable prices. A 10% - 15% increase in the average price of 996 over the next 2-3 years should happen. So that dirt cheap $15K 996 will cost $16.5K . The well cared for car listing now at $22k will cost $24k.

^^^ Perhaps, but here's another economics lesson: Don't look at the Porsche market through Porsche-colored glasses. Porsche made a Bazillion 996's - as sports cars go, it's mass produced. Given there were so many made, and given their (potential) issues, prices are not going anywhere. Maybe in another 20 years a pristine 996 may fetch good money, but the average 996 is going to be a $15K - $20K car (or less) for a very long time. 6GT3's are certainly an exception. My crystal ball tells me so. I'll bet that "dirt cheap" $15K 996 will be $13K in 2 or 3 years. Here's some food for thought: I won't say what I paid for my Ferrari 360 but I thought with only approx. 8000 made for all production years, it would probably never drop below $100K......WRONG. Today my 360 is worth maybe $60k-ish, maybe $70K on a really good day. Now 8000 cars is not many, but it's a huge number in Ferrari production. The most mass-produced Ferrari ever made. How many 996's did Porsche make? Think about it.

There is a lot of 'wishful' thinking in this thread.

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A real economics lesson...your theory is 100% speculation back up by zero emperical data.

If previous gens are any indicator the wide body cars should fare the best once bottomed out, which I personally feel the 996's are. But...if you believe Hagerty's data for my MY 2003 they made more (7900-ish units) C4S than any other 911 version that year by a wide margin. Not so for '02 and '04 and I would guess first year jitters for AWD and then in '04 diluted by the addition of the C4S cab. But they sure cranked out a lot of C4S coupes in 2003 it appears!

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I think you're onto something. If we want to know how well 996s are doing, it's going to be mostly based on the 997. If the 997 values tank, people will arguably take one of those over a 996. They cannot take a 993, so only a 991 would be the next substitute. The 3.2 Carrera became super hot and you could still get an SC or 964 for a reasonalbe price, but not for long. I feel like 996/997/991 are in a similar boat, but we'll have to see

I'd suggest looking at the KBB site to get a picture of 996 values either trade-in or private sale. If those numbers are accurate then you'll be surprised at how low they are.

The Op is in Canada , and here 996 prices have been going up . I'd venture a couple of reasons , The demand is there , these cars have been getting favorable right ups in Porsche specfific magazines . Now when you go to PCA meeting , people are into the cars , but a few years ago a 996 owner at a pca meeting felt like the last kid picked to play hockey . The 968 , 944 & 928 PCA crowd all seem to be getting into 996s now. There were never that many of them here compared to the USA , and a few years ago when the dollars were on par , some were coming in from the states but now with the low price of oil , our dollar has dropped and the flow of USA import cars has stopped . Even in Vancouver , the number two market for high end cars in North America , there just aren't many 996s around . Back when the 996 was new we had one multi brand dealer , now there are two new OPCs ( and a third new OPC in Victoria) and 4 independent Porsche sales & repair places . I see 4 991s and 10 boxsters of every era , for every 996 . I get offers on mine every week . You just don't see them and people want one . Unlike when I lived in the UK and you couldn't throw a rock without hitting a silver 996 , there have never been lots of them around up here .

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BAT cars bring a premium, which I don't understand. There was a 150k C4S sold for 23-24k 2 weeks back that had been listed here and Craigslist for 25k with no love. When you add buyer pays 5% they paid more than they could have by making him an offer. I think there is a false sense of security or people think they have some sort of buyer protection ala eBay..maybe it's something else. I would never judge the market from that source

Interesting opinions from you all. As I said, the 2002's and higher are good sellers here; 99-01's were cheap and aren't rising as fast in value. I passed on a few mk1's 3.4L for 10-12k less than I paid for my 02 C4s coupe all original including IMS and RMS. Fifteen yr. old cars are not beat as someone suggested unless you beat them; be kind to your friends and they will return the favor.

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Those numbers are not accurate. I just looked up the value of a 1992 911 C2 in very good condition in KBB. $16,000. So they're only off by about $40,000. Porsche 911s have never been accurately priced in KBB or Edmunds or NADA.

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Um. Economics is theory. Empirical data cannot exist BEFORE an event has taken place. So yes, you are 100% correct there is no empirical data for an event that has yet to occur.

The frount cover of April 2017 GTPorsche magazine is a picture of a 996 & 997 , This is the heading of the article 996 vs 997 Carrera As 996 Carrera values continue to rise they are converging with their newer 997 counterparts. This promotes an interesting debate – which 911 is the better prospect? I just downloaded it , great article , the central theme is rising 996 prices overlapping with 997.1 prices .

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Nobody pays book value, so the prices on there really don't reflect the market for any vehicle

I wouldn't think anyone would buy a 996 for resale value, got my 03 C4S coming from a 14 Sti hatch, about equal value now, just hoping to stay reasonable prices, so as not to depreciate as much as the Subaru if that makes sense

911 Carrera for Toyota Camry money, really is the deal of the decade.

KBB numbers are useless for sports cars - for the buyer and the seller. When I bought my Z4, I paid 20% over KBB value... and 5 years later when I sold it, I sold it for 20% more than the current KBB value. It doesn't take desirability into account - just assumes all cars depreciate along a similar curve based on miles and age.

Looks like the market has soft spots. $20k for a 2004 MY https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=169572067

^^^ And cargurus has another '04 listed with slightly less miles for $18K.

What price range did a basic 996 bottom out at? Until recently, I had never seen them under $20k so I assumed they are lower priced than ever.

You would expect the next 5 years a whole bunch of 996 Mk.1 to get to the scrap yard. Those with 150k+ miles you see at low prices but pristine early 50-75k miles car values are creeping up IMHO. There simply are not that many around allready now! Good ones I mean. The "average" cars without interesting options will stay at the bottom for a long time. Which is great, fantastic cars at reasonable prices!! Volkert

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How true. I recently tried to get a trade in value for my 99C2 with 82k and it came back with some ridiculous number of like $7500. I've been in plenty of cars that were worth $7500 and i can tell you for sure my car doesn't fit into that price category. KBB is only good if you're the buyer and want to try and lowball the seller.

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Then for the price of another Camry you can get a replacement engine. After that, then for the price of yet another Camry you can get stuff like a new gearbox or valve job. Then, for the price of a third Camry you can sort out things like a suspension, cooling system, exhaust, brakes, etc. If these cars were so cheap, everyone on the planet would be commuting in a used Porsche.

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Believe it or not, used car dealers usually can make $5k-$7k on these cars, even after expenses. Auction prices are still in the $9k-$13k range. Buy it, sink $1-$2k into it, list it for sale for $19k-$22k, sell it for $1k-$2k less than original asking price or after lowering the price because it doesn't sell, and that's how it's done. The real deals to be had for these cars are the ones that aren't selling. The market sometimes just cannot bear it. For example, there's a 99 996 Cab in St. Louis that's been for sale for 9 months or so. It has 46,000 miles. I'm not sure if the condition, but I would offer $16k and pay $17k for that car and probably win it for near $17k. Very unlikely that car's value would ever drop below that number, even if you doubled the mileage on it.

this is the first "used" car that I've owned that won't lose a ton of value... it's an 05' (996) C4S, w/ factory aero, gaurds red on natural brown (rare combo), 38k miles this car won't ever skyrocket - but it may go up some in value and I should always to be able to get back out what I put into it.... you can't say that with many used cars.

Since prices aren't going up in the USA according to most of you but they are elsewhere the us might be a good place for export porsches in the next few year , not quite like the 80's was , when I could buy 911 Sc and make 30-40 percent after landing , but low mile gen 2 c2 manuals and c4S might be worth while

Oh, they're going up alright. https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=143102681 .. https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=143102681

on the market for 314 days, eeek. As a former realtor I can tell that the seller feels his 911 is "special".

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Those are crack pipe asking prices and paying that would be only for suckers. The entire auto industry is floating on a finance bubble. New car dealers are offering 60 and 72 month loans at 0% interest in an effort to keep the stock moving. Leasing has replaced purchasing with the returns after 2 or 3 years being shuffled off to the auction lots. The 996 is an excellent car but with very real limits and compromises in the design. Enjoy it for what it is and throw aside those dreams of it every becoming worth more than you can buy them for today. I've been offered an 06 997 S with 90k miles at a price in the mid twenties. 996s in Los Angles are going asking for ten thousand less. Find a nice 996 for under 17k and drive it for 5 years and maybe even longer...but don't imagine it will ever be worth more than you paid for it. Their low price is part of what makes them such good cars...for the money.

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Aside from throwing down $15k for a new mill, they are pretty cheap to own and operate all things considered (like the fact they will go 175MPH). Couple grand a year put away for operational expenses and your on solid ground when things come up. Now Joe Camry is most likely not in a position to plop that kinda coin down when needed, that's why he is driving a disposable universal Japanese vehicle to his remedial IT desk job so he can load up his 401K just enough to be able eek out a retirement where he does not have to eat cat food as a subsistence strategy. The poor bastard had no idea that Janice would put on that extra 100lbs after having a few kids, back in the day when he still had enough hair for a pony tail, drove an el camino and worked at guitar center she was the head jazzercise instructor at the local fitness center, nothing could stop them Beware of the Camry effect

MRWW ,quite possibly the funniest thing i have read here in a long time!!!!!

uh-oh

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Many Porsches, especially earlier ones have limits and compromises in their designs and bring insane money. The 930, with its massive handling issues to name one.

I think a lot of folks on this thread (the ones thinking appreciation) will ultimately be in for a big disappointment. Stop worrying about appreciation or depreciation. They're great cars. Drive them and enjoy them now.

^^^ I agree. Look at my value estimate that I posted on the popular 1999 Carrera. And basically, unless you have a "concours grade" pristine car that's virtually in like-new condition... or maybe a "Raby" modified, then these cars are depreciating further.

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Yup, special editions and paint to order colors and super-low miles garage queens are the cars that will eventually climb in value... but even then it is likely going to take a considerable drop off in supply (ie, 996's heading to scrapper) for that evenutal appreciation to climb significantly. I do think that nicely maintained running cars won't drop terribly much more in value... They seem to have reached a cyclical state where they peak in value around spring and drop off heading into winter. The marque, pedigree of the 911 of and within itself, and the sheer cost of good used replacement engines will keep the prices from falling too much lower. I think fixer-upper cars in the $8-$13k range will remain sporadically available for years to come, and the quantity of those will likely increase in availablity as time goes on and people become disenchanted with "cheap 911" projects gone sideways.

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You nailed it my friend Jaetee! No telling how many stories I've read and personally witnessed, where someone bought these 996 p-cars thinking it would be a 'walk in the park' only to find out they've purchased a money pit. Not in every case. These are reliable cars IMHO, but when the break.. they BREAK your bank account! Word to the wise!!!

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Yes, I was being sarcastic...feeding the frenzy of some.

"The 930, with its massive handling issues to name one." Hmmm, affectionately known as widowmakers... You don't hear that much anymore, as they're all sitting in garages appreciating in value... When they are driven, it's usually just down to the local cars and coffee on the weekends.

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As you say...."insane money."

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Im with you guys, except I really don't see where these cars are depreciating any further.

Well they can only go so low. I mean they still need to stay above the cost of a used Boxster so just by virtue of that and the Porsche name there's a bottom limit.

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Only 25% of cars are leased. As for brands vs lease rates, Porsche has identical lease ratio as Honda BMW has identical lease ratio as Lexus

My sources say that people don't want to take the depreciation hit on a $100,000 dollar car that they are going to trade back in within 3 years for the next model. The purchase makes no sense to them. They modern Porsche buyer keeps the miles well below the lease limits and most new Porsche 911s will never see a 30k service from the first owner.

I agree here, it is all about the demand and supply. We should be wise in choosing our car, be it buying or leasing new one.

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my 02 C4S has a valued of $16 000 on the used vehicle information package (UVIP) from ontario. I wish I paid $16k. lol

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Yea, I feel ya! For some reason, the 2002 C4S is depreciating more on a steady decline, but still a good used one has an average retail value of $25,000. What does that mean for high mileage p-cars?... it means you're looking at around $17,500 retail on average... which also means, if you trade it in, you're going to see dealer offers around $12,000. Big OUCH!!! If you don't like to take that kind of hit on resell, then either auction it off on eBay or BAT, or try your hand at Craigslist. Personally, Craigslist is probably one of the most frustrating methods of selling a car. Lots of tire kickers wanting to test drive your car with no intention of purchasing it. Overall, as 996 owners, we have to keep things in perspective. Porsche sold a butt-load of these cars during the 996 era. Porsche has said in spite of the criticism, the 996 was one of the best selling 911 cars ever. That's great for Porsche but bad for the collectors market. However, most people that buy these cars are not like the Ferrari crowd that may drive them only a few times a year and keep them locked up in a temperature/humidity controlled warehouses. Modern Porsche owners drive the hell out of their cars which means only the concours grade, limited versions (e.g. GT3RS) are going to appreciate in the near future. But don't be fooled, if you have the intention to make some profit down the road, now is the time to buy the 996. I give you a personal example. When I was a kid living in Atlanta, my father's neighbor bought a beautiful black 1976 Carrera Turbo for about (if I remember correctly), $30,000. That was an insane amount money for a car in the 70s'. After about a year, he offered to sell it to my father for just $14,000. My father being a more practical car guy, thought that was too much to pay for even a used sports car and so he made the decision to pass on the deal. Today, those cars sell consistently at auction for well over a $150,000.

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But isn't a lease just exactly that? You're paying for the depreciation with your monthly lease payment. I'd imagine a new 911 lease payment would be somewhere north of $1000/month. So you'd pay $36k over the life of the lease plus the $5k or so initial down payment. The same as buying new and taking a $40k (or less) hit if selling after 3 years. There's no way a dealer is losing money on a lease. A buyer would take less of a hit by purchasing over leasing a car.

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I tend to agree with this statement, with a lease it's like an expensive 3 year test drive , option to purchase after, but you have already paid the depreciation, and yes the dealer never loses money, ever

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Using your numbers...let's imagine a $100000 new 911. plus t & l at 10% and you are at $110k. Put $22000 down and you have a balance of $88,000. Imagine you got that balance from Porsche Credit at 0% for 60 months...that comes to $1466 per month. Do that for 36 months (before you trade the car in) and you've spent $52800 plus the $20k down...and after 36 months you're into the car for $72800....and with $20k cash up front. Now your lease is $5k to get the car and I'm going to figure a lease payment including sales tax of $1375 (more than you estimated). Now that comes to $54,500 in 36 months...that is $18300 less than the purchase and it required 75% less at the drive off. If you are keeping a car for 36 months, leasing is by far a better way to go, and that is why so many do.

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Shows how off those UVIP's are my 2002 C2 Cabriolet was valued at 19k wholesale!

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Correct - leasing is betting on what the depreciation will be. It's a numbers game. That's said, in rare cases, it might make sense to purchase instead of lease. For cars that have higher than normal residual value.

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This is a very incomplete analysis of leasing. It only looks at monthly payments. It's like saying owning a house with a $1200 mortgage is worse than renting a house for $1100. Guess what, when you retire, you get to sell that $700k house and make a lot of that money back. You totally ignored the fact that when you're making payments on a purchased car, you're building equity in the car. At 0%, every dollar you pay goes towards equity. That entire $72k you've spent is still 100% your equity. The $54k spent leasing is 100% lost money as you do not own the asset. You should really edit your hypothetical to factor in what the car is worth upon sale at 3 years old. You need to consider what the $110k car is worth after 3 years, and factor in that you have $72k of equity in the car, b/c when you sell it, the net proceeds are yours. There is no free lunch, and Porsche does not subsidize leases. You are not sidestepping depreciation by leasing. It is baked into the lease (rental) terms.

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And how much did you put down on that $700K house to get your payments to $1200.00

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You're missing one important detail. Resale value. Just for ****z and giggles I priced out a base model 911 lease. $1199/month with $7199 down. After 3 years you will have paid a total of $50,363. KBB values a 2015 911 (currently 3 yrs old) at $73,367. Assuming I buy with $0 down and have a 3 yr loan, I pay $2932/month or a total of $105,552. I sell the car for $73,367 after 3 years then the car cost me $32,185 to own for the 3 years. By buying I am $18,178 better off. And that's assuming turning in the lease with no over mileage or damage charges. There's a reason dealers love leases. They make more $$$ on them. To clarify, I used a base 911 price of $92,500 with 9% sales tax and 3% int rate.

Another factor to leasing is that many many people lease their cars through their businesses and write off a large portion of the cost from their taxes. If you are acquiring a car to keep, buying makes sense. If you turn them over every three years, leasing is better. Dealers don't care if you buy or lease. Either the bank or the leasing company owns the car...for the dealer he just has the money in his pocket and the car off his books. As for resale value of a three year old Porsche....unless it is a special limited edition, it will be taking its biggest hit in those first three years. Don't look at used Porsche retail asking prices to determine value...look at what the dealer will give you in trade. Your 3 year old Porsche will be worth 40% less than what you paid for it, not counting taxes and license fees.

^ Good point, many corporations lease vs buying all the time.

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Finally there is someone with their finger on the pulse of the modern Porsche buyer. Thank you, I'm sick and tired of people just projecting their opinion a sense fact!

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"How much is the bridge toll I must pay to go collect my lottery winnings?"

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Thanks for a more complete example that factors in resale for the buyer. In summary: Leasing. Total payments are $50k Resale proceeds are $0. Total cost $50k Buying. Total payments are $105k Resale proceeds are $73k Total cost $32k Conclusion: Buying costs a slightly more than HALF the cost of leasing.

This thread has more life than the potential future appreciation of 996's.

$32k and u can have it...(see right)

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Insurance actuarial is usually pretty accurate. That's how they make money, so having the right info on costs, and values determines premium rates. What this tells me, is that we are in the nadir of depreciation curve, and prices have hit rock bottom(presuming no more engine surprises). The 928 is just coming out of its nadir, so there's a slow but noticeable climb now. It could be 2 or 15 years before the price starts to go up, but at least the worst is basically over. I bought an Avanti 20 years ago because I was SURE they were right on the cusp of a huge increase. Sigh,,, still waiting.

20 years from now 996>...

Just took my '02 996 C2 6spd Cabruilet in Lapis Blue/Grey with 62k home for $22,170. Great condition with a couple of dings. Soft top has a slight yellowish tinge either from UV (Texas/Arizona car) or someone tried detailing it with something and it got an off-color. With that said, no maintenance records and 60k wasn't done so I went ahead and schedule that maintenance, the IMS bearing, RMS replacement, and clutch replacement. That will cost a pretty penny so I factor that into the price of the car. I think you can find a good 996 perhaps on the private market with a motivated seller. A lot of these now are on their 3rd owner and up with 80k miles+. I really wanted a 6spd for my 996 so it took a little searching to get everything right with factory installed options, etc. Best of luck on your search!

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Did you have a pre-purchase inspection on the car? If so, how are the cylinder bores?

"996 Prices are on the rise " @NuttyProfessor : Not if I can help it!

I leased my Guards Red 944Turbo back in 1986. LOL!