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Oil level was then checked after up to full operating temperature, on level ground.
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Oil level was checked before first cold start after sitting overnight.
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I checked the oil Friday after a long drive and it was exactly in the middle of the range on the dipstick.
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I filled the car up with fuel, after about 25minutes at mixed highway speeds (75-90) with a short sprint to 125 on the Turnpike on ramp merge.
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Suggestion
Try this...Get your car good and hot, shut it off and check the dipstick on a level surface then let the car sit over night and check in the morning before first start of the day and report back.
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Hello Rennlist I'm Eastep. Long time member & lurker, recent poster, new 996 owner!
After a couple months of searching & driving 8-10 examples; I finally made it happen, yesterday 2/4/20.
The car is a lower spec '99 C2 6spd with 71k on the clock.
Condition is overall very good, but the service history and extras, are why I chose this particular example.
Just off the top of my head:
� Full service history
� IMS, AOS & RMS done
� New Clutch
� Coolant flush
� Fabspeed exhaust
� Fabspeed silicone intake
� BMC air filter
� LN spin on filter adapter
� Numeric short shifter
� Rennline aluminum "track mats"
� Rennline pedal set
� New tires
� Hawk sport pads
I'm sure theres more, but those were the stand out items that helped make this an easy decision.
Im so excited and still in disbelief that I'm a 911 owner!
It's such a cool and iconic design! I've wanted a 996 ever since seeing them at the local Porsche dealership, when I was in high school. Sorry for the crappy pic, but the weather is equally crappy here in Philadelphia, at the moment.
Congrats!
The Philadelphia 996 contingent is growing strong! Just bought my '03 C2 from Porsche Warrington and my '02 Turbo is from a private seller in New Hope. See you around!
-Joe
I've searched the service records and other paperwork, dating back to 2002. The best I can surmise, is that the car was delivered 4/98. During my initial collection of history on this car (prior to purchase), I recall seeing that the car was built in January or February 98. I'm having difficulty searching that info again. I tried VINanalytics, but no results or build specs. I've included a pic of the options sticker, but cant decipher some of the letters/numbers. To add to the uncertainty of my cars birth; if I type my vin into most vin decoders; it comes back as a '99 Carrara C4.
WP0AA2996XS620073
424 - CD compartment
437 - 8 way electric seat left
438 - 8 way electric seat right
490 - basic sound system
537 - seat memory left
688 - CD Radio CDR210 Becker USA (my favorite radio)
939 - draped leather rear seats
981 - leather dashboard and door panels (pretty rare option in my experience)
982 - draped leather front seats
I noticed you said the IMS was done. I am curious of the condition of the one that was removed.
Also, funnily enough, a local junkyard has a car build 20 after yours I've been scavenging parts from
Welcome! Very nice find! An early 996 with full maintenance and some nice upgrades by the PO. When was the IMS done, most of the aftermarket parts have a service life before they have to be replaced? Might keep an eye on the rotors with the Hawk pads, they are pretty aggressive for daily use. Since the AOS's fail and nasty things can happen, check out the tread on the Ultimate AOS for a preventative measure.
Thanks for the kind words. I'm very happy with the purchase. It has a few cosmetic scars from 21years of service, but overall it's good. Thanks also for the suggestion regarding the pads. It was also a concern of mine prior to purchase. The Seller (a Rennlist member) also suggested I consider swapping to a less aggressive pad. I'm torn as this cars initial "bite" and stopping distance is sooo much better then any of the other cars I had driven! Do you or anyone else reading have any recommendations for a good street pad?
Since I have y'alls attention and instead of starting another thread, I'll ask here and I'll keep it short:
Can oil pressure be too high? I've searched the archives, but most threads are dealing with "low" pressure.
Thank you to everyone for the welcoming and contributions, thus far.
I like Porterfield R4-S street pads, but Pagid are good, Akebono are great and low dust. But, this is a subject akin to "what oil do you prefer" (please don't ask that question
)
The brakes on a 996 are excellent, you could step down from track pads and not notice much difference. Just longer rotor life.
As long as the oil pressure guage is not pegged at the top you are fine. Running 5 bars is good.
Yes. It reads high all the time. Granted, Ive only had the car for a day and half. I had driven the car on two other occasions, prior to purchase. I noticed idle pressure with the car at operating temp and an ambient temp of upper 30s-low 40s, was around "2-2.5"ish
This morning on cold start + 5-10 minute warmup; pressure was still at 5.
This afternoon temps in the mid-upper 40s: cold start + 15 minute warmup; pressure was at 4.5-5.
After driving 2 miles in a timely fashion to the tune of 15 minutes later; the pressure at idle (traffic light) was in the 2-2.5 range. Also the rear wing light?? is on. What's up with all that??
My oil gauge is like yours.
I *believe* the spoiler light being illuminated after initial start means a fault in the system, much like an ABS error or CEL.
There is a button by your lower left foot that manually operates the spoiler, it is automatically deployed at 78mph I think, hydraulically.
I see you mentioned cold start followed by 10 or 15 minute �warm up�. Lots of discussion on this forum of this possibly not being ideal. Start it and drive away, keeping RPMs under 3k until up to operating temps....then have at it. Pretty sure others will chime in with thoughts on this subject.
Enjoy every mile, the smiles never stop.
Thanks for the info and suggestion. I'll look into the topic further. I will also try the hop in and go, tomorrow morning.
I gotta state for the record that doing so is counter intuitive for me. I have owned several old Italian cars, and the"hop in and go" (no warm up) is probably one of the best ways to wreck your gear box and valve train. Lol
Very nice! You have the 72nd 1999 coupe built. January 1998 is the first production date for US production (we think). I was told that February was first production for cabrio�s but someone on here has a January cabrio. Mine is Feb. 1998.
Enjoy your new car!
Daryll
Wow! I didn't know that! I remember checking the door/build date, the first time I met with the seller & seen the car. I brought it to his attention that it was an early car, but I had no idea that it was under the first 75 cars built for our market!
Let me ask: how did you come to this determination?
What number in the vin gives this info?
Thanks
The spoiler light comes on when you start the car and will extinguish after a several seconds. If yours goes off after a few seconds ( maybe 10?...I forget) you are okay. If it comes on while you are driving at deployment speed you have a problem.
In cold weather start the car and start driving. Keep the revs at 3K or so until the engine starts warming. Try to never lug the engine.
Letting the car sit while warming up promotes bore scoring. Don't do it
You have a very nice and desirable early car. Your gauges and everything else looks fine. Reading the forums will scare you...don't obsess over it.
Both drive the car and change the oil regularly. Don't use cheap oil. Check your oil filter at every oil change. (google search will show you what you are looking for).
Thank you for the suggestions. Skimming through the archives
is
what put doubt into my head. From now on, I will turn the car on and drive as soon as the secondary air injection shuts down.
I still cant believe that I own and drive a 911! I'm in love with it!
Definitely join local PCA if you haven�t already. Fun get togethers, group drives thru the countryside, etc. My only other suggestion is doing used oil analysis with every change. Not expensive and gives you a chance to catch issues before they might present themselves audibly or mechanically
The spoiler light will only go dark once we drive off and if the spoiler is operating correctly. Otherwise, I think it stays lit while the car is stationary. If it stays lit while driving, there is a fault.
Nice score, it looks just like my minimally optioned '99. I don't have the front license plate but I do have an airbag light that has been on for the last six years. Durametric and '99's don't seem to work well together. Enjoy the new ride and get ready for many many smiles.
A guy who is very knowledgeable on these cars says: When engine is cold: get in, check oil level electronic gauge, start car, buckle seat belt, drive off keeping the revs below 3,000rpm until temp gauge is at/above 160f before stepping on it. Letting it idle keeps the car in cold start fuel enrichment which can send more fuel into your oil through the cylinders. Not a good idea.
Thanks for the tips. I did this exact procedure, today. While on the topic of fuel and oil:
I filled the car up with fuel, after about 25minutes at mixed highway speeds (75-90) with a short sprint to 125 on the Turnpike on ramp merge. After shutting off the car and topping off the tank, the digital oil level began flashing once the car was restarted. It flashed for about 10-15 seconds, then went away. My first instinct was pull over and shut the car off. Until the mechanical and sensible side of me weighed in. Not hearing any oddities, not seeing any temperature or oil pressure fluctuations, and not feeling any loss of power or other signs of distress; I pushed on my trip home.
Once home I wanted to look the car over and check levels and such. There doesn't appear to be any inter-mixing of coolant and lubricant. The oil level is a touch below the "notch" & top hole on the dip stick, though. Is this a normal quirk? A sign the sender may be going out? A fluke coincidence? Or should I be really scared?
Thanks in advance
on my 03 which has a different gauges, the first turn of the key and the car starts an automatic oil measurement which can be overridden by continuing with the ignition. Not sure with mk.1 versions. Make sure you have good tires if you continue to go faster, which you will....
For accurate oil readings, your car should sit for 24 hours on a level surface. You can turn the key to the first position and the oil level will display. Try to keep the oil level in the middle of the bar gauge, and only add 1/4 quart at a time to keep the level in the middle. You can also check via the dipstick as well.
Not trying to be that "guy";but, you should spend sometime and read your owner's manual. There's a lot of info in the manual about warning lights, gauges, etc.
you will learn a lot about your car and probably ease many of your fears.
The last part of the vin number is the sequential production number. MY �99 coupes start with 62 and the cabrios start with 65. Yours is 0072, so the 72nd coupe built for the model year. They did build seem �98 models for other markets, but the US did not get the 996 until �99 model year. Deliveries started in April 1998 in the US.
So you have a very early car!
Daryll
No worries, that's a solid suggestion. I was skimming the manual on my lunch break yesterday. The reason for the concern was because up to this point I have not had the oil level light come on while the car was in motion. It normally comes on during start up and cycle through. I will double check the dip stick and coolant level, before start up, this morning. Thanks for the advise.
Bucks County Exotics. Look it up ,every 1 and 3 rd Sat in Bucks County on 611 ,big Cars and Coffee starts back up in April I but some people show when it�s decent out. Lots of Porsches
They dont, and I agree with you. It's German plate from Stuttgart (according to the PO). I might take it off when I have time. I've been too busy driving to worry about it.
If you do take it off, go to BumperPlugs and order plugs for the holes. Have your paint number and you can get matching plugs. Completes the look.
https://www.bumperplugs.com/
Awesome! Lititz is a cool town. Are you driving the 911, today? Good luck with the Cheyenne, I think I'll look into one, at some point.
Any way, I'd suggest meeting up and we drive some back roads, but I'm heading to Carlisle to help a friend with his Bertone X1/9.
I'll PM you my info. If your ever back in the area, hit me up.
Beware, the dipstick only works when the oil is hot. Use it after a drive, park the car on level ground and wait a couple of minutes so the oil can sink to the sump. Then use the dipstick and aim for the middle of the range. Only fill 0.5 quarts / liter at a time.
If you use the dipstick when the engine is cold (as is the procedure for most other cars), you will measure a too low level because the oil hasn�t expanded yet. This will cause you to overfill and this is very harmful for the engine. The advantage of measuring the oil when hot is that you can measure multiple times during a long drive or a track day. With other cars you can only measure once in the morning before you set off.
The electronic gauge compensates for temperature and should give a fairly accurate reading both when cold or hot. But to be 100% certain, use the dipstick when the oil is hot (after at least 30 minutes driving).
Quoting the manual: �The engine needs to be switched off and at operating temperature.� I can take a photo of the page if you want...
With the air-cooled cars, the engine needs to be idling.
The manual also says change oil every 15,000 miles and the oil filter every 30,000 miles. That does not work for me either. As 85 said above do whatever works for you.
I have a manual. I've spent countless hours reading about this pos engine, and weighing the info from both factory manual and respected m96 engine builders. Ymmv.
fellas, fellas, fellas. Let's all just wind it down a little bit.
I appreciate any and all suggestions that are given, and I certainly appreciate those who are trying to keep me from possibly making mistakes. We're all obviously on the same sides here, and have the same objective & intent to help in mind. (even if we might have different approaches)
I feel very fortunate that a series of complete stranger's (until now), are not only willing and egar to help a budding Porschephile like me, to get up to speed on the various quirks and SNAFUs of the 996; but who are also very obviously passionate about their stance on the topic. Thank you all.
With that having been said: I found an open and smooth stretch of PA Turnpike, with no traffic this morning. Naturally I had to wind it out a little. I was on my way to 150, but chickened out when it was still pulling hard in the mid 130's
At that speed, I would be perfectly happy with whatever ticket they give me, as long as I stay outta cuffs!
And "yes" it is very intoxicating. The induction howl above 4500 is very nice!
I let a friend of mine try the car out, and he wasn't bashful either. Mid to upper 120s and pulling like a plow-mule!
He's now contemplating the purchase of one, too
My wife smacked me at 135 going up Parley's Canyon. (I-80) Told me to slow my $hit down. It was still pulling hard with a 6% grade and turns. Racing a little Audi 2.0TT. He did OK until we hit 100 or so.
I�m saying that it gives the wrong reading when the oil is cold. We all know that oil expands when hot. So you can design a dipstick to give the correct reading either when the oil is cold, or when it is hot, but not both. So we have three possibilities:
1. Porsche designed the dipstick to be used when hot, and mentioned this in the manual. Using it when cold leads to overfilling.
2. They designed the dipstick to be used when cold, but erroneously said in the manual that it was to be used when hot. Just one of the many mistakes they made.
3. Porsche designed the dipstick to be used when hot, but it�s actually better to use a higher oil level than they intended, so you should check it when cold.
I�m going with 1.
Awesome!!
Try this...Get your car good and hot, shut it off and check the dipstick on a level surface then let the car sit over night and check in the morning before first start of the day and report back.
Ok, I stand corrected! I checked the oil Friday after a long drive and it was exactly in the middle of the range on the dipstick. This corresponds with the electronic gauge. I had waited about one minute after shutting down the engine.
Checked this morning again with engine stone cold, and it was at 60% of the range. So, I think we can conclude that the oil doesn’t seem to expand much when hot, and waiting one minute is probably not enough. And that it’s fine to check in the morning before setting off.
My apologies and let’s return to the OP’s adventures.
It's all about drain back time. Your oil level at the middle is perfect. Add oil when at the bottom measure of the stick/gauge to return to the middle point and your engine will be happy.
...and now back to our regular scheduled programming.
^^^ What???? ^^^
I'm not sure where you got this info, but none of it makes any sense... All oil readings should be made "cold" - dipstick or meter or both... Once the oil is distributed throughout the motor it will always read low. Due to the flat "H" design the oil sits out in the heads doesn't drain back to the sump very quickly - hence the need for scavenge pumps in the heads (to pump the oil back to the sump). The general consensus is to let the car sit overnight on a level surface for an accurate reading...
** If there's any doubt about this, just watch the countdown on the electronic meter next time you stop for gas...(you'll be waiting a while, and it'll give you a low reading - does this mean you have no hot oil in your car? I don't think so...)
The electronic countdown is because the oil needs to drain first. Not related to cold/hot. I was referring to the info in the manual, which says to use the dipstick with a hot engine. But as I later described, cold seems to be fine too. Let’s leave it at that.
This is what prompted my query. The oil countdown always shows 1 or no bars, after a fill up, after being driver for atleast 30 minutes. I figured this is just a quirk of the car, seeing as the engine didn't grenade itself from oil starvation.
As DP said it's about drain back. Low on the stick or gauge does not mean you are out of oil. It still has plenty to function properly. Check in the morning before the first start stick or gauge. I prefer the stick to verify the gauge, as a stick never lies. When at the low mark add enough to bring it back to the middle. Then...drive on. Just keep it below 135 mph!
If you mean in comparison. They are actually very close on my car. I'm just old, don't wear Brooks Bros three piece suits suits so don't mind opening the engine hood for fear of getting dirty and trust a stick because it can never go out of calibration like something electronic.
Now "get off my lawn!"
There are two holes on the dip stick. My level is at 1/4 down from the top hole. I suspect that the top hole isn't even part of the measurement scale, as it doesnt look like the rest of the stick. My oil looks like it's at the top of what I believe to be the measurement section. But idk. It isn't ticking or over heating or blowing up, so I figure "*$%#it, let it ride!"
I believe but am too lazy to verify with the manual that the bottom hole is low and the top hole is full. Some more energetic forum member will probably verify. Another hint make sure the dipstick is fully seated in the tube before pulling back out to view level. I fell prey to that issue once!
Oil does expand while hot. It�s just that the shape of the container matters a LOT when using a dipstick. What did you call me? Never mind. Oil drains back into the sump over time, quite a bit.
Most people on this forum would suggest keeping the oil just below the top mark, and I would do that based on the highest reading possible - usually when stone cold.
Some folks report their engine smokes when driven, due to an overfilling situation. So that�s why folks recommend not filling to the very top.
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Just a quick update:
Got the car inspected, yesterday. It passed with no "remarks" or suggested repairs, from the inspector! With that being said, I think I'll need rear tires in the not too distant future Tires are currently running at 4/32nds, so.... I'll start shopping. Any suggestions? Currently running Pilot Sports.
Now, I'm not one to brag, but..... oh, ho am I kidding!?; Yes I am, lol..
I managed to score11qts (total) of Mobil1 0W40 for $72 out the door (tax included) at a pep boys! Getting ready for my first 911 oil change! No I need a stockpile of good spin filters. Might stock up on Mann/Mahle or Bosch.
Hi everyone. Thanks for stopping by to read my postings.
I need your collective advice on a couple issues I think I'm having, with my recent purchase. All oil related, and the details that lead up to this posting can be found throughout this thread.
I dont know how to start, so lemme just say " I think I F#@*$& up!
As mentioned in earlier posts, my oil level was low on the stick and only registering 1 on the digital display. I added a half a Qt of Mobil1 0W40, as that's what the car has been using, according to all the service records I have. I drove the car and it's still low. I add the other half, and atleast now theres an acceptable amount on the dip stick. The digital display now shows 2 or 3 bars down from the top. It was around 40�F outside, at this time. Now on to my concern.
Perhaps this is coincidence or perhaps my engine is screwed, or maybe its nothing. The morning after the oil top off and "full" indicators, I started the car and could hear a ticking/ clattering sound. The sound disappears about the same time frame as when the secondary air injector kicks off (estimated 1 minute). It was in the mid 20sF. Today, I hear the sound again. It doesn't go away even after the the engine is at full operating temperature, and has been driven for 30 minutes. Temps are in the 10s-teens F today.
After further research, I think I will return the two 5 Qt jugs of Mobil1 0W40, and make the switch to DT40.
Lastly:
I'm hearing what sounds like transmission whine from the right side of the car, when throttle lifting. I dont recall hearing this when I first bought the vehicle, but perhaps I wasn't used to the various sou ds of this car. Ive driven the car approximately 1500-1800 miles since purchase and am noticing more sounds then I recall hearing in the first few hundred miles. Am I paranoid or do the sounds in the vids warrant concern? Thanks in advance.
You Tube
You Tube
You Tube
As a general rule, check oil on a level surface AFTER the car has sit overnight. And, never be hypersensitive and overfill these cars with oil.
Now, regarding the ticking sound. Reshoot some video on bank 2 of the engine at the bottom near the exhaust. That's usually where bore scoring occurs on these cars.
Watch these...
You Tube
Thanks. Oil was filled on a level surface. Oil level was checked before first cold start after sitting overnight. Oil level was then checked after up to full operating temperature, on level ground. The sound happened after the top off, which coincidently happened to be the coldest day that I've owned the car. So I'm unsure if it's a temperature issues, an oil level issue or a mechanical issue.
As Nutty says above. Place phone on ground beneath the car in the area of the exhaust headers on the passenger side. Give us 20-30 seconds of recording. Thanks and don't freak out.
Okay, I'll post another video. Im not freaking out, just nervous. Sometimes I regret searching for info on forums. It just opens oneself to just enough info to be dangerous, lol. Ill post a video after a while. I'm attempting an oil change currently. I'll have to hold off on the DT40 for the time being. The current Mobil oil is looking pretty dark, so I'll use the 0w40 I have on hand, until next change. (3-4 weeks)
Changed the oil this afternoon. Upon the first starting and Idling, after the oil change, I didn't notice the ticking sound. Drove the car to meet with friends, for dinner and didn't notice the sound. After returning from dinner, I could hear the ticking. Now even louder. The ambient temp dropped from 50-60� in the garage to sitting outside of the restaurant where it was about 13�. I've read that these cars can make some noise when it's very cold outside. I'm hoping this is the case, and it's not bore scoring or some other potential death of my car.
You Tube
Right after I bought mine I went through the same thing - hearing what I thought were all kinds of potentially catastrophic sounds. First was gear whine - mine definitely has it. But at a PCA meeting I verified with a couple of others that have 996 and 997�s that they have similar (or more) gear whine. It is somewhat characteristic of a 911 of our vintage and older. Very noticeable when my top is down. Almost undetectable when the hard top is installed. Considering my gearbox shifts fine and there is no leaking from the diff, will keep on driving! Same for ticking - like you, have occasionally heard the ticking - which on any other car you would assume is lifter noise. Of course on a 996 the assumption is that you have bore scoring and your engine is due for a rebuild. For some this is the case (Billy unfortunately), but for most of us the motor is fine. In my case the car had sat for close to two years before I bought it - two oil changes and all of the �lifter� noise has gone away.
But most importantly, don�t get paranoid reading these forums - in general the 996 is very reliable - with normal car it will last a long time.
Enjoy your new car!
Daryll
At this point quit worrying about the car and drive it. It may be bore scoring. And, then again, it may be an engine accessory.
Drive the car and monitor oil consumption. After you get more used to the car you will develop a "seat of the pants" baseline so you will know what is "normal" for your car and what isn't. I don't believe your engine is in imminent danger of grenading.
Drive, wash and repeat and enjoy!
Thanks for the positive outlook. I still have my reservations, but we'll see. I did used the 0w40 oil that I bought this week. I drive 160 miles a day (round trip), so it won't be long, before my next oil change. I have a screw on type oil filter, and plan to cut it open, later today. After I get a good look inside, I may or may not feel more at ease over the situation.
As for the possibility of lifter noise: That's honestly what it sounds like, to me. I think I might be down on oil, since I only refilled 8qts after the oil change. The dip stick reads full, so I went with that. I'll check again this morning, since the car has had time to sit overnight.
Thanks again.
For some comforting remarks regarding M96 engine noises, read the reply by hartech (well known UK engine builder) halfway down this page:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...t=1285949&i=20
The only thing you should do at this point is follow the Raby scope procedure. From top and bottom.
Then you will know if you have bore scoring.
The only logical explanation for new owners of these cars that �suddenly� start hearing the knocking noise after purchase, is that some seller poured some oil additive into the oil and tried to hide the knocking noise during the sale process where it goes undetected for a few hundred or a thousand miles, until the next oil change.
Only a bore scope during PPI will save those buyers from getting screwed.
*Eastep* I'm not an engine expert and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but here are my thoughts...Maybe...maybe not. The cadence and sound is familiar, but if it is bore scoring it sounds very early.
Could it be something else or nothing...yes.
As Mike says above only one real way to know is to do the bore scope.
Thanks, and your correct to an extent. The PO did mention that he uses Lucus oil stabilizer at each oil change. I didn't think much of it, since it is a good product and a good practice to use it. Not to mention I spoke with his INDY about the car, before he knew I was considering buying it. As for the PPI... I can see some potential merits of having one done, but I'm not fully in the PPI camp. In an ideal situation, yes it's nice to get one, but I strongly disagree with the whole "mandatory PPI" mindset. A little experience, common sense and effort, will ho a long way when shopping for any used item. I looked at 10 cars before buying my current car. 4 were serious contenders and pretty even across the board. My budget wouldn't afford to drop 500-1000 on each car, that I might not even buy. At that rate, I'd never own a 911, lol.
The problem is that you could look at 10 cars and they could all be mint on the outside but harbor a ticking time bomb. Whether or not the engine issues are overblown is another discussion but the reality is if the M96 blows then its going to cost significant sums of money to fix 10-20k. So $300-$400 for a PPI is peanuts in comparison. For certain cars I would agree that I wouldn't waste my time with a PPI but honestly any high performance German car I wouldn't even consider unless a PPI is done. There is a recent thread on here where a new owner ended up having intermix issues, could be bad luck or could be a shady seller but either one could have possibly been avoided with a PPI. The way this forum is if I hadn't had a PPI done on mine I probably would have sold it by now because of the constant threads on engine issues.
Several people have messaged me, asking me to weigh in on this sound. I have been fighting the flu, and bronchitis, and then on Friday my dog died, so forums haven’t been high on my list of priorities.
I know that rhythm, and tone all too well.
Someone should have performed an invasive PPI including bore scope from both the sump, and spark plug access points. I think that a scope inspection now will reveal bad news, if done comprehensively, and correctly.
I hate seeing this happen over and over again to new purchasers, its like a broken record of people assuming cars that “run fine” couldn’t possibly have an internal issue. Assume nothing, quantify everything.
I'm sorry to learn of the loss of your doggie family member, and your recent health. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread. I spoke to my local Porsche Service manager and he said that they very rarely do bore scoping on PPIs. The service manager said something like 1 in the last 10 years.
He give me the list of PPI procedure, and said it's what they use when trading stock or checking trade in cars, and they check it as if they are going to sell it and offer a warranty. This didn't seem like the info I was most keen on knowing, so I chose to move forward.
how should I proceed from here?
Watch the video series by Flat 6 on bore scoring that was posted earlier. I believe there is even a video where he talks about what you can do depending on the situation but I don't want to summarize it because I can't quite recall. You could scope it and see if there is any damage and if there is how much. The bore scoring topic really seems to have exploded in the last year or so at least in my time lurking and then signing up for the forum. It was always IMS, IMS, IMS but that is a relatively minor issue provided you deal with it before the damage is done.
With the dealer everything is unicorns, and rainbows. They are trained to tell you what you want to hear. I am not wound that way, the quicker reality sets in, the better off you will be.
If they performed a proper, comprehensive PPI based on the realities of what is afflicting these engines, we�d see a lot less posts like yours. On top of that, it would help if they knew what they were looking at when performing the evaluations. �Technicians� ... Yeah.. Its more �mech� than �Tech� these days when it comes to understanding the deficiencies related to these engines.
Plain and freaking simple:
The engine is guilty until proven innocent!!!! Not the other way around.
If they are not performing a thorough PPI, then they should start. If they�ve bore scoped one engine in the last 10 years, they are the problem.
You will now go through 3 stages;
Denial
Deliberation
Decisive moments
Yes, based on what I have heard, �it is happening�, so I�d get through the denial phase as soon as possible. I could be wrong, and maybe I am.. You�ll spend more money to prove that I am right, more than likely. Use my video procedure to do the scope inspection yourself, and you�ll spend less than 100 bucks to perform the evaluation.
When deliberating, the ONLY thing that matters is �Do you LOVE THIS CAR?�
The quicker you can reach the decisive moment, the less pain you will endure. You�ll go back to the seller and the finger pointing exercises, and �disbelief� will begin. I find myself telling people these things every week, and it is definitely happening more frequently.
Thanks for the kind words about my old dog.. 14 years ago I found her in a ditch, eating a dead Opossum, and nursed her back to health. She just laid down and never woke back up again, which is a best case scenario, considering I usually have to put our animals down around the farm myself.
UPDATE:
This weekend I was able to check the cars spark plugs. What a PITA! That upper rear most hex head screw, was a nightmare! The forward two plugs on the right bank, were loose and had oil on the coil boot. Unfortunately and as I expected, the vehicle still has a ticking sound. I've discussed the cars bore scoring with my wife. While she has her reservations, I'm committed to fixing this car, even though it doesn't make financial sense. Other then a low/early production number and date; theres nothing special about this particular car, other then the fact that its mine and my first 911. For me, that in itself makes it financially sensible. I've already began an oil change regime and mpg monitoring/ oil consumption monitoring regime. Sometime next month (3/2020) I'm going to have Specialty Cars in Allentown PA, have a look see, and confirm what we all already know. LN should be receiving my first oil sample, later this week, and establish a baseline to proceed from.
On a more fun note:
I stopped by Fabspeed, on Friday, on my way home. Picked up a couple decals. Thanks Scott
Did you put in new coils? The newer upgraded coil packs come with handy dandy bolts that are really easy to work with. And also, new spark plugs would have been a good idea since the coil packs were off anyway. Loose spark plugs make strange noises...and can tick. Just saying....
Thanks for the suggestion. No I didn't replace the coils or plugs. I'll re read my service records, but I seem to recall that the PO had them replaced sometime last year. I'm tempted to thread studs into the existing holes and use nuts and lock washers, moving forward.
Oh and not related but, dang are the stock 17in wheels heavy!
The hundred bucks (Or less they are getting cheap) for the scope,,
And a Saturday to pull the plugs and the pan. Can really really save you some pain
If you ruin the cylinder assembly beyond LN or Hartech repair, you'll be out between
a grand and 2500 to find a good set.. Check out the core charges they charge.. there is a reason.
Thanks for the solid advise. I have a bore scope and plan to check just how badly the bores are scored, at my next oil change. At this point its mostly irrelevant how badly theyre damaged, as theres very little additionally, I can do. (other then the steps that I'm already taking). This is my daily driver, so using the car less until I can afford a FlatSix rebuild or get onto their list, isn't really an option and would be the only other thing that I'm not doing, that I could be doing, to prevent further scoring. I'm stuck like chuck, as they say.
If it's early stages of bore scoring, you've got time to work with. Do the bore scope (and UOA) to determine exactly where you are, and don't freak out. The key (if bore scoring has started) is to keep the oil as clean as possible (to avoid/reduce collateral damage) by doing more frequent oil changes etc., and start saving for a re-build with "Nickies"... Good luck
I had my PPI done at the end of 2018 and I wish I would have known about the bore scoring then, so focused on IMS. I guess on the plus side there wasn't any noticeable metal in the filter or pan but if I had known what I know now it would have been scoped. It's just one of those things where even if it's not making noise it doesn't mean it can't be going on.
If you have that mindset, or even that thought- sell the car as it is, and don't look back.
You'll never be happy if you look at this scenario, and the future of the car with this perspective.
You either love the car, or you don't. There's no in between.
I've been consulting owners with failures of these engines for 18 years. At some point you just need to hear things directly, a nd understand the 3 stages of failure mindset.
-Denial: Is this really happening to me? Yes, it did.
-Deliberation: What am I going to do, how can I afford it? The consideration point here is "do you love it?"
-Decisive moment: Fight, or flight. Keep it, do it right and love it, OR throw in the towel and take a loss. Either way you'll either lose money by selling the car as it is, or you will INVEST money in making it better. Its only going to end as an investment if you spend the proper money, in the proper way to create a more precise, reliable machine that is respected by the crowd that makes up the future ownership of the car. Cheap "rebuilds" are not investments, and junkyard engines are not investments; both are liabilities.
I prefer investments to throwing hundred dollar bills out the window. That's just me.
"
It's just one of those things where even if it's not making noise it doesn't mean it can't be going on."
^^This^^ is true, and all the more reason to bore scope it to identify if it has started (but not making noise yet). If you catch it at this stage, you can mitigate the damage by devising a plan of shortened oil change intervals, perhaps using a different oil, additives (or not...) etc. It could be a few years before you need to re-build the engine.
This was me too. IMS, IMS, IMS....AOS & RMS. Hindsight is always 20/20
What I was trying to say in my post was that to my wife and most sensible people; spending a cars purchase price on a repair, is terrible economics. Theres really no if and or but about it. We all know this to be true, however: The sole fact that because I love this car, that alone makes it worth the cost of the repair. It's not sensible, I doubt that the cars value will sky rocket like air cooled 911s did, so I dont look at it as an "investment" (in the traditional resale sense), either. I do see it as an investment for myself and my own piece of mind, though. (That fact again, makes it worth the cost to repair it)
I am in the quasi deliberative phase though. The choice isn't whether I have bore scoring (I figured I did before I posted about it) and it's not wheter or not to repair the car (that was never a question to me)
the deliberation is "how can I acrew the finances to do so, and how long do I and my cars engine have?" The un knowing is where I'm stressing. I hope to get a better idea after the scope and UOA results.
Thanks again Jake and everyone else whos been very helpful so far.
Look at the silver 997 in my bore scoring video series, parts 8,9 & 10... It's a classic example. It had zero noise, and zero symptoms, with extensive scoring that was nearing stage 3 progression.
That engine was already shredding it's self from combustion byproducts bypassing the rings, and lacing the oil with deadly hydrocarbons.
This is the real issue. It is NOT the primary failure that is the concern, but rather the secondary, and tertiary failures that stem from it. We've had some engines that were ran with bore scoring that had the oil pump wiped out, as well as many other components that add costly additions to the reconstruction process. You can do short service intervals to help, and use the oil that I mention in the bore scoring series to help repel, and control the lacing of the hydrocarbons.
We had a customer on the wait list with bore scoring (currently 80% of our engines in queue are because of bore scoring) and he was still driving the car, with my help to keep it healthy. It threw a bunch of codes and started making noise last weekend. Looks like its a variable valve timing issue, and it's likely that the carbon laced oil has taken out a vane cell adjuster for one of the camshafts.
Driving an injured engine has its risks, and those risks have their costs.
That specific video and these types of threads are way worse than all the IMS stuff I've come across. Its a tough scenario to be in because it seems like no one is safe and there isn't necessarily a one size fits all diagnoses. No symptom car could be completely trashed, its like the silent killer.
Once I confirmed what I already knew, bore scoring, the car came home to the garage and sat until the day I drove it to the meeting area for the semi to take it to Georgia. I am fortunate to have other vehicles for transportation, but I would have done a long time car rental, if necessary, to bridge the gap to avoid the chance of a catastrophic failure with associated increased costs...however that's just me. To each his own choice.
Congrats awesome buy I just picked one up too a 99 with 71k from cali im the third owner. Nephrite green interior ! im selling my 19" ssr wheels that came with the car if your interested shoot me a text [phone removed]
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
