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If collectability matters to you much, I'd recommend the 40th.
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Then a few hours later another 1.+'hour run back home to Orlando.
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After many older Porsches from 356, 911, and 928, I am ready for a newer 911 for a daily driver. Budget puts me into 996 selection. I have narrowed search to a couple of cars which is an 03 C4S with 72K or a 40th anniversary with 52K. Say all things are equal with respect to service histories, which would you pick and why. Thanks for your opinions.
Not sure what not a good DD means.
I have driven my 40th AE every day rain or shine for last 4 years and put 40,000 miles on it with hardly an issue. Go for the 40th AE. the full leather, X51 engine and LSD are more than worth it. Oh, yea it is also faster and lighter than the C4S
If price is equal as well with the other parameters you listed, then it's either a good deal on a 40th or a bad deal on a C4S (IMO). Either one would be a great daily driver even in bad weather conditions if properly equipped. The 40th is faster (on paper anyway) and rarer if that matters. At the end of the day, both are great.
having just sold my 2001 C2 and purchased a 2003 C4S, hands down the C4S is a better handling/driving car. you can be much more aggressive in the mountains and the difference is very noticeable
looks alone should sell you on the C4S - the wider stance and turbo front end makes it a great design
I think it depends on what you want. If collectability matters to you much, I'd recommend the 40th. If you want to spend a lot of time on the curves or even perhaps track your car, the C4S. Purely from the look standpoint, I prefer the C4S but the 40th is a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's a tough call but I'd stay away from DD unless you have a short commute; not because of reliability, but for the love of the car.
My commute is quite short. About 5 miles each way. I do enjoy spirited driving when I have the time and do get over to the Smokies for fun. I will likely never get on a track. My last 911 was one of the first 1989 C4s. The rarity did not seem to make much difference when I sold it. When I say the cars are comparable in price the 40th is about 4 Gs more.
I do like the looks of the 4S but certainly do not need it for weather being in Tennessee. I do also understand handling benefits of AWD. I am a Subaru salesman. I could get a new WRX for less but 911s just fit.
Tough call. x51 sleeper is nice, but the wide body is nice..I'm not a fan of the 40th wheels and probably wouldn't go silver again...that might be my deciding factor for a C4s... Good thing it will be a couple years before I have this horrible problem you are faced with.
hard choice between these 2 as they both have their respective pros/cons.
i like them both equally. but those wheels and the silver trimmed dials on the 40th, are the two factors which makes them equal, otherwise 40th all the way.
Personally, I don't know much about the 40th. It seems like it has some nice options. I have a 4S and bought it mostly because of the turbo body and aesthetics.
+ yes DaveCarrera wide hips are nice. That styling plus the AWD made my choice. I chose a C4S as a DD.
Lots of great input and perspectives here. The 40th is great but in a different way. It's more subtle and really special only to true porschephiles. 40th is special with a collector appeal. It has a loyal following here and in the PCA concours clique.
A poster referenced liking his porsche too much to drive it ? Another suggests not a good DD, I disagree. If I am in the car for long daily commutes I want it to be the best drive best car every single time.
A commute yesterday was Orlando to Daytona Beach for 7:am project meetings with a important client. 1 hour 15 min, 70 miles easy traffic quick runs into the red zone extended speeds whooohoo ! Did I want to save my car ... leave it home in the garage and take a Taurus ? Nope. Client insisted we drive for lunch in the Porsche. From Daytona Beach a mid afternoon high speed drive going to Melbourne, long empty stretches of 95 then a side twisty road detour in the back of cape canaveral cocoa on some awesome motorcycle type twisty back roads..then I95 again, mixed traffic lots of construction and cops ( thank god for built in escort) but still a few romps into the red zone. 1 hour 45 min drive. I arrived for a early walk on the beach and then a ocean view dinner happy having a post speed Porsche adrenaline high.
Then a few hours later another 1.+'hour run back home to Orlando. Nearly 250 miles today at 25.3 MPG in a gorgeous fast car. 4 + flawless fun hours in her today. Who could ask for a better DD ? As you can also see from this rear view of my date, I love wide hips.
Glad you said that about the handling.
Most don't get that the Porsche C4S AWD, unlike the Subaru, it's not designed as an all weather tool. It's a performance enhancement designed to increase cornering, lateral direction changes and provides more grip, stability and gets the power down better than RWD. It's AWD and turbo brakes and suspension make it faster around tracks than it's counter part Carrera 2 despite the C4S being slightly heavier.
My love of luscious, curvy hips is a matter of public (i.e. marital) record. I'd still take the 40th, if a $4k swing were 'equal' in my world. It's as close to a factory 996 C2S as you're going to get in this life: if you want higher performance in a RWD 996, you're looking at a pretty bad DD.
I also think the turbo bumper and GT rockers make for a very appealing 996-- discreetly menacing, like a welterweight with a truly gifted tailor.
It's a little bit special-- even for a 911-- outside, inside, and underneath. And let's face it: all Carreras give good rear view!
You cant go wrong, so enjoy your dilemma and its solution!
AWD vs LSD? LSD for me please. The 40th is lighter, faster (x51 powered) has sport suspension and is typically better equipped with a list of premium options standard in the package such as full leather. But you better like GT Silver as it's the only color they came in. The 40th AEs hold their value pretty well too.
But I'm biased of course....
I think either one would be an excellent choice. The 40th has the same front bumper cover as the C4S and the turbo, but with the grills painted body color. It does come in a unique color with special wheels. It's a very striking looking car and photos don't really show how attractive it is. The X51 package is a great option and as others said, it has the full leather interior like the C4S and turbo cars.
That being said, I still believe that the C4S is the best looking of all the 996 cars. The combination of the wider body, lower stance and the throw-back rear reflector really work well on this car. It was my choice, and it would be again.
I think that either car would make an excellent daily driver. I wouldn't worry too much about either choice being a collector car someday. Just buy the one you like and drive it.
I agree, not a fan of the painted front bumper gills or the wheel color. C4S is hands down the best looking 996 and better looking then the all the non GT 997 models. The 40th is lighter, quicker and has 25 hp over the C4S but both could be rwd if that is a problem. Very tough decision. I'd personally go for the best looking one.
I had this same question when I was looking for a 996 as well. I ended up with a 40th AE. My thoughts were/are:
C4s: Best looking normally aspirated 996 IMHO. I didn't care much for the AWD as it doesn't snow where I'm located nor would I be driving much in the rain. Love the bigred brakes as well. What I didn't like was no "difference" between C4S and a regular 996 in terms of performance. Bigger brakes, wider stance and AWD, but no additional power. (more weight to lug around because of the AWD system as well.) More color choices.
40th AE: x51 package, LSD, 2wd and full leather, all important to me as I want to do DEs with this car (well leather isn't important for DEs, but it is for regular driving). The things missing to me for this car are the lack of bigred brakes and a widebody. I think if they made the 40th a widebody and big red brakes, the car would be highly desirable!
I'm not a fan of the silver colored grills on the bumper, so I sprayed mine black to add some contrast. I like the wheel style, but not a fan of the "bling" on it (supposedly shot peened vs. polished/chrome). You can change this as well. In regards to the height of the car, just get some suspension for it (I have the x74 setup, just need to install it)
In the end, what do you want? Great looks and AWD, then get the C4S. If you want performance, then I say get the 40th. For me the trade off was wide body vs narrow body and if the additional goodies from the 40th could outweigh the widebody looks. In the end, the performance won out for me.
Either one is fun to drive. So it's a win-win.
I really appreciate the input. Can't say that I am that much less confused. My heart leans a bit with the 40th. If you saw my current DD a 2000 Subaru 2.5RS you would probably say that looks are not a big factor for me. Ha!!
The LSD was a feature that I had not considered.
That's *exactly* what I was thinking. I use mine as a DD and will continue to do so. I'm fortunate enough to have fantastic driving roads in my back yard. It's a great way to unwind after work.
OP - I just recently voted with my wallet and bought a 40 AE after looking at a number of 911's, including a C4S. While I prefer the looks of the C4S, the 40 AE sold me on the drive. It really is a compelling package. You can't lose either way. Good luck.
They aren't easy to find, but they're out there!
Also, one important thing to note - the performance differences we're talking about here are measured in tenths of a second. Every variant of the 996 is an excellent performer and fun to drive.
+1 the performance difference is negligible. Now compare any NA 996 to any NA 993 or prior, and the difference is amazing! Why I upgraded from a 964 C4 to a C4S, and now to a 996 turbo. Each was a huge leap over the prior.
2002 Turbo - Basalt Black Metallic / 2003 Carrera 4S - Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 - Rust Red
Having owned several 996 Carreras, Carrera 4S and Turbos. I’ve driven them daily and instructed in them, tracked them etc. .. I do think that the C4S is the best looking of the bunch, they also drive great. More comfortable, smoother and quieter than any other 996.
The 40th AE is nimbler and lighter on it’s feet but honestly I don’t know that the average person would necessarily enjoy driving one more. I also really don’t like the looks of the 40th AE (painted grilles on the turbo bumper and the polished wheels don’t do it for me). I personally would almost certainly rather have/drive the 40th AE car, just don’t know that it’s such a straightforward decision. Drive both if you can and good luck!
You really have to drive them and stare at them in person and see which you like better.
I'd imagine looks alone would be the most important decision making factor. In my opinion, I think a C4S feels more solid than the C2 model and I also don't think the x51 engine in a street car or even LSD are crucial for daily driving and shouldn't be big factors in your decision regarding which car to buy.
What does the LSD do for the handling? I mean, I know it enables stronger acceleration out of tight turns; suppose it enables longer, better controlled drifts; and have heard it makes heavy braking more stable (presumably with PASM off). But what about at less than 10/10ths? I'm hoping it might make the the rear more throttle steerable or perhaps even make the front end pointier. Does it? And/or any other handling impact at less than 10/10ths?
LSD is most effective with cornering and traction control. When the inside wheel starts spinning because of the weight transfer leading to less grip, your Porsche loses the ability to put power down on the road with the outside wheel. This isn't good, especially if you're trying to put in a good time on the track or aggressive street driving.
IMHO LSD is not as much a factor in street driving compared to AWD which in the 996 is AWD on all the time even in low speed cornering and traction events.
But because the 40th has PSM, the engine will cut power to stop the wheel spin anyhow. And how many people track a 40th Anniv. 996 as any potential extra value the car has over a regular 996 would be shot, so I'd imagine it seldom happens! Again, I don't see the LSD as a performance enhancer to affect the OP's decision between the C4S and 40th Anniv. 996.
You are right, on both counts.
I've never seen a pic of a 40th yet on track. I hope someone defies the norm there and does.
That why the AWD also with PSM is faster. ( I just love saying that )
1. Nr. 1187
2. Nr. 1240
3. U294
4. U442
5. U766
(note - "U" cars do not have known limited edition numbers - the "U" number refers to where the car is listed in the 40AE registry)
Lol, +996
If you're worried about diminished value, you shouldn't be looking at 996 in the first place.
if you're looking for the best value as a buyer, welcome aboard.
To be honest my 40th has been great value, super reliable, minimal mantenance required and I would say that in the past 3 yrs of ownership the value is flat to slightly increased.
The only downside is that once you get a 996, you spend a fortune modding it. You dont have to as the car is great as it comes, but one you start you just cant stop!!
The PSM would not work with most LSDs, which I understand is why they did not offer the LSD in 2002. But eventually Porsche figured out how to make a LSD with a very low ratio - about 22% - which works with PSM. This is the LSD on the 40th (and other rwd normal 996s with the LSD option). So I would suppose that it would allow some power to the non-spinning wheel before cutting power, no?
And it won't cut power if you turn PSM off :-)
EDIT: I've done some more LSD reading, and I don't want to be spreading misinformation. While there are lots of sources saying the OEM LSD has a 22% ratio, lots of others say 40%, which I'm beginning to think is correct. And is it true as I originally wrote that lots of LSDs don't work with PSM? Well, maybe many are useless with PSM on, don't know, but it sounds like many do make a difference with PSM off.
But doesn't converting to 2wd remove all the handling benefits? While there are a lot of small differences that could slightly improve handling, I think there are only 3 big ones: (1) power to the front wheels, (2) better weight distribution, and (3) springs, dampers, and maybe anti-roll bar - most/all are stiffer than all but the hardest option for regular 996s. (Though does anyone know if the stiffness increase is beyond that needed to compensate for the extra weight?)
Of course, the third difference could address the slow turn in and inert rear that some complain about with regular, 2wd 996.2s. But if so, then surely everyone would modify their suspension, and no one on the forum would talk about the C4S's handling advantages ... ?
Or am I wrong - does a "C2S" keep most of the C4S's handling advantages? And can modifying a regular 996.2's suspension make it handle like a C4S? (Or a 996.1, for that matter?)
Don't mean to hijack this thread, but I have a question for MiamiC70.
Remember that 40AE that you told me you saw on the highway near you that had a "40 Jahre" euro plate? I think I found it - nr. 0955. Is this it?
It might permit a slightly higher limit as to when the PSM kicks in since some wheel slip would be mechanically limited prior to a wheel-speed difference occurring, which would keep PSM from intervening. But 22% lockup doesn't do much on the acceleration side, and if you've got a lot of miles its friction plates might be worn out any how!
All of you guys who track your 40th's should be able to chime in with their experience: Must you disable PSM on a track to keep it from intervening when trying to accelerate through and out of corners?
