The MYSTERY thread.........

2003 996 with 36K miles for cheap. 7 prior owners; some only a few months and/or a few hundred miles. Some that made oil changes every couple hundred miles; most of this stuff happening in the last 5 years and 4,000 miles. Dealer has no records, and of course doesn't know more than that the last oil change was 400 miles ago. I'm lusting for the car, so help me out here: Constant oil changes..............other than trying to flush something out of the car's sump, what could be a Good Reason to do it? 5 years and 4,000 miles..........would an impending failure last this long and the car still start with no smoke, drive right, no soot in the tail pipes? What gives?

My choice is to give a non-returnable binder to the dealer, then get the car to a Porsche wrench to do a take-down in order to see what's what with the bore and IMS and AOS....for another $1,000. Invest $2,000 in a PPI to prove one way or the other, or is there something easier on the wallet?

Looks like someone tried to sell it here 2 years ago. https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...cabriolet.html

It's the same car that's spawned the threaded about, "How can I tell what's wrong without spending $2500 threads) Looks perfect, starts and runs right, but the ownership and oil change history is way suspect. What would you do next if you were determined to not let it pass you, but wanted every possible chance to find out if it had a fatal flaw?

This is one of those deals that could go either way; either we win with a primo car (after we get the stuff sorted out) or we lose big and the car get's parted because the price of repair is about the price of the car....so help me out with a process to sort it out. Right now, the car acts like it needs........nothing. The problem is the history of ownership and oil changes.

Some of these cars just don’t get driven much. People who know way more than me (and I’ve bought in and followed the advice more than not) swear by an oil change every 6 months regardless if you’ve drive 50 miles or 5000. Also, if you were to buy a car, wouldn’t you change the oil when you took possession? Changing hands that many time could explain that as well. I think the bigger question is why did it keep changing hands? I think the investment in investigating the cars condition is wise. Maybe add a used oil analysis to the list of things to do in the process of discovery. Not sure if it would tell you enough with so few miles on the oil. Others here will know, I’m sure. Good luck, keep us posted.

After the ooohs and aahs, what does your brain tell you if the car starts and runs right? > New owner 32,067 > new owner 33,692 > new owner 33,950 > new owner 35,479 > new owner 35,526 > new owner 35,550 > > > Oil changes > 32,198 5/15 > 32,377 7/15 > 32,869 6/16 > 35,529 6/19 > 35,642 4/20 > 35,850 5/20

Do you have the names of all owners? Could be the same guy moving it from one company to another for tax reasons.

The car is wiped clean of paperwork; not a clue. Lots of different states, though, and that still begs the question of the oil changes.

The only first steps I can think of are to check the exhaust pipes for soot, and to see if they are both looking the same. Then take it to an oil change place and while they are draining oil, collect a gallon of it. Put it into a pan and run a magnet through it. If no splinters, send a sample to Blackstone to see whether they can deduce something. It just doesn't add up that IF the car's oil was being changed in order to mask a problem, could the car have been driven 4,000 miles and still not show any signs of a problem?

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Two big concerns - IMS bearing and Bore Scoring. With no records on hand, you need to plan to put a little money in this one if you move forward with a purchase. 2003 will have the 6204 IMS bearing on it unless the engine was replaced after 2006. You should check the engine serial number. If it's the original engine, then you'll have the most problematic bearing. I recommend having it changed asap. Most people do it at clutch service. Also, plan to change out the RMS and AOS during this time. With the tranny dropped, it's easy access! You should also consider scoping the cylinders for bore scoring. That one should be done BEFORE you purchase the car IMHO. Why? Unlike the IMS bearing that can be swapped out on this car, if you have cylinder bore scoring, that means a full engine rebuild. Lots of $$$$$$. Would love to see some pictures!

PM sent your way, b3. Yes, I'd plan to do the full Monte on the car if I get it. The hard part is that non-refundable deposit, and the invasive PPI cost. I re-did the Carfax and this came out, not as bad as it first looked IF Carfax reports a new owner even when sold at auction. Anybody know for sure? same owner 2008-2013 new owner 32067 5/15 dealer? new owner 32198 NV oil/filter 32198 5/15 oil/filter 32377 7/15 oil/filter 32869 6/16 new owner 33692 6/18 auction new owner 34780 12/18 new owner 35526 6/19 dealer? oil/filter 35529 6/19 new owner 35550 4/20 auction new owner 35850 5/20

Car dealers are listed as new owners on Car Fax. This car could've just gone from used car lot to used car lot after it didn't sell for a couple of months. You should be able to get an invasive PPI with scoping the cylinders for under a grand at an independent shop. There are other issues that plagued these cars such as cracked valve seats, cracked heads, cracked coolant expansion tanks. Not to mention, sure the oil was changed often, but what about the coolant and gear oil? IMHO, a very low mileage 17 year old car will end up having just as many problems with parts failing due to age and non-use as a higher mileage car where parts just wear out. I'd rather have a car that was driven.

What's the asking price? Where is it located?

It's pretty obvious that each time the car "sold" (or changed hands for whatever reason) there was an oil change done within a few hundred miles. This in and of itself isn't surprising. My question would be; why did these new owners only keep the car for short periods of time? It looks like there are indeed several "dealers" involved with the car being sold at auction. Maybe they thought they could flip it for a nice profit? You'd think at this point that they'd be well versed in the 996 and it's potential pitfalls... There seems to be at least one private owner sandwiched in there who had the car for over a year - maybe that's the person to search for and/or reach out to if you can find them... Good luck

Asking price is now under $25K for a 36K mile cab, and dealer thinks a deposit was taken on Saturday, so I might not need to dither about it any longer.

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Here's my take from looking at the carfax. The car was privately owned and passed through many owners (6) from the time it was sold brand new (7/16/03) until it was sold to a dealer in 6/23/18. From there, the dealers never sold it to another private owner; therefore, it was never registered by the state. It just moved within the dealer/auction network. Not totally uncommon for these types of cars. Dealers don't want a car sitting on a lot for more than 30 days generally or they'll auction it or move it or sell to another dealership. In this case, the car was taken to auction after it didn't sell to a private owner after 6+ months. it appears three dealerships tried to sell it in Florida when someone from Tenn bought it this past May. This person was the 7th owner. Strangely, this person owned it ONLY 4 months and sold it to a dealership. That would concern me. Wonder if they experienced problems with the engine? Maybe finances became a problem and they had to sell it because of COVID-19? We don't know. If you liked the car, try your best to get pre-purchase inspection. IMHO, this car is worth $20-$23,000. Low miles means nothing to me in this equation. The strange history (or lack of service records) speaks louder. Cheers!

Another gulf coast bama guy?! Sweetness!

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lol, we lived in that 3-story red house by the Marina Road boat launch for 12 years until traffic got too busy.

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Traffic not bad on Ono! Also not bad if you go everywhere on the boat. I leave the walmart runs for 7am.

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The dealer "thinks"??? Not trying to shout BS at this dealer, but that's a common dealer trick to get you interested in the deal. If they can make you think the car is in demand, then you're more likely to buy it. The deposit could be legit, but the fact they say " they think ", tells me it could be a tactic to get you to buy the car. It's happened to me many times. I called the dealership about the car, and the sales manager says, "We still have the car, but a person has put a deposit down to hold it" I always respond with "No worries, that are many others out there ... have a nice day!" Then the manager jumps in and says " Sir could we please have your name and number?" I usually give it to them just to see if they'll call back. 9 out of 10 times they call back and say the last person ended up NOT buying the car. hahahaha

Sooooooooo many possibilities! Suggestion: 1. Ask some Rennlister in the Plano area to go take a look at it, drive it, etc. Pay them some $ for their time. 2. From there, if it sounds good have it PPI'd. 3. Make decision from there, does "look" like a nice car. My 03 had swapped a few dealer lots also before I bought it.

that's possible, of course, I was dealing with the sales manager after the sales guy wasn't as responsive as he should have been. SM was in his car and said he'll let me know when he gets to the office. Agree with you about the BS factor, because he could just as well have made a phone call and found out. We'll see. My son will actually be getting this car; he wants us to partner on it and then he buys me out in a year or so when his bonuses permit. He Really wants a TT, though, but his pockets aren't that deep. That said, if the car did sell, the search continues! The perfect car will be from a private seller who's had it for years and has records and fixes documented. Oh, and he's desperate to sell, too

It looks like it's been sold, so here's the rest of the story: https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...CALERTSEMLSRCH

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I'll be looking for it to show up for sale as a roller soon...Lot's of 996's out there to choose from. And don't forget, "He That Hesitates..."

To be sure, I hadn't learned as much from you guys about how to diagnose and treat the known gremlins, and what I've learned is way more valuable than if I just bought a car and crossed my fingers.

UPDATES: 1. The car sold on Nov 14, and is coming back to the dealer to sell again. Stated reason is that they sold it to another dealer that had it sold, but a CEL blinked the sale, and the CEL code seems to be a mis-fire. When the car gets to the dealer, it goes directly to a wrench to run codes and such. 2. The wrench said that checking for bore scoring is pretty expensive on an '03 due to what needs to be removed in order to access the under-bores. Is that true, or is this Porsche mechanic not wanting to do the work? I've been stressing about a 10% failure rate, but maybe should be looking at the 90% fun rate? Geez, it's like dating a girl with all the right curves, you tend to want to forget whether she can cook.......

Run!...

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If you can also forget that she ran up $25,000 on your credit card and then exploded in front of your face; hell yeah man date her.

I'll argue against myself for a little bit here. When you guy bought your cars that hadn't had a retrofit done, isn't that exactly the same as what I'm contemplating? The low miles might be a benefit as well, right? If bore scoring can come up out of the blue, then are all of our cars suspect? If so, what makes this one more or less suspect? I started this thread hoping that there was a good way to know for sure that nothing was going on with the engine, and the learning process has kind of suggested that the bearing's condition isn't known until you've replaced it; it is just an historical item at that point, and no PPI can really tell. If bore scoring is like a stroke and can just come up, I can't protect myself there, either. What am I missing? More to the point, what would You do differently about looking at the car?

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Have you watched Jake Raby's videos on the subject IMS bearings and Cylinder Bore Scoring? If not, watch this video on IMS bearings... You Tube Then watch this on the 4 stages of failure... You Tube Then if you still have the mental energy, watch this complete series on IMS Failure... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...Z6TAKaUrj4P6c0 Lastly, watch this series on Cylinder Bore Scoring... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...iZKhfNjeTXaRkn

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Because of the weird history on this one, I would insist on an invasive PPI. That way I would know about the bore condition. I'd also get a look at the oil and sump. If there's no metal in there, the IMS is likely still ok. After purchase, I'd plan on installing The IMS Solution and the UAOS. Then most common failures are covered, except for bore scoring. Follow Jake's recommendations and you'll reduce bore scoring likelihood. The only way to 99% prevent bore scoring would be to have your engine rebuilt with Nickies. Foreign debris could still cause scoring. At least the IMS Solution could be reused when you have your engine rebuilt. (and the UAOS, but I'm not certain what Jake's(or whoever you have rebuild) stance on reusing the UAOS would be)

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What I take away from these videos is that the only safe (more or less) M96 is one that's had all the fixes done; otherwise it's a crap shoot. That said, what makes this particular car any different from the norm, other than the ownership history?

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I think the weird ownership history is a warning.

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Here's something to consider, though. If the new owner sensed a problem right away, how could he have managed to sell the car without anybody finding out? Have that happen 4 or 5 times and it's approaching Amazing. What are the odds that nobody that bought the car had a PPI done, and that everybody that had the oil changed had an analysis done, which caused them to sell? Number of owners is weird, so are the oil changes, so is the price. That said, it's all hearsay conjecture that I need to decide whether the risk is worth it. Are all potential buyers feeling the same angst and backing away? Sure is a nice car.

Well it seems like the last owner got a CEL the minute they turned their new car on so that would certainly cause me to go back to the dealer and say "I want my money back." I think you should wait and see if they're able to diagnose this misfire. It could be something simple or something that will make you happy you didn't become owner #9.

This car isn't special enough to take a chance. How many silver and black cabs are out there? All of them.

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LOL, yeah, but how many have 36K miles and are under $25K? None of them. My Black on Black '99 Cab is great, but with this car I'd be gaining 4 model years, getting half of the miles, NAV screen, new look, for not a not of money difference from what I think I'd get for mine. I'd be trading into an admitted gamble, but also getting all the real pluses for less than $5,000, so there's that. My first 911 was a '73 S,Targa, and so silver has some memory value, too.

Agree with strathconaman. The only thing "special" about this car is the number below the tach is lower than most others on the market. Everything else about it screams "run" and I have a feeling that is the main reason why the miles are low. Looking at the photos from the Rennlist marketplace listing the interior doesn't seem to be in any better condition than my 70k mile car. There has got to be a good reason why this 36k mile Carrera is listed for 80k mile money. If you're trying to talk yourself into it and can't give it up, then buy it and enlighten us why it has changed hands so many times. We are all just trying to talk you out of walking into a burning house because we can see smoke.

Agreed, I would be saying the same thing, and have said it, but it will be worth the money to have a wrench do a PPI and drive it to find a clue, any clue. Also, the story I got was that the CEL was a mis-fire, but if the PPI shows more than that, maybe that's why it hasn't sold and won't sell to me, either. -

A misfire can be caused by things both cheap and very expensive. Let us know what they come back with.

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"Nice" with just any Porsche 996 is like walking in a bar and picking up the first lady you lay eyes on only to wake up the next morning in jail with your wallet stolen, tattoo on your arm with a name you've never heard of, and a rash in a place where the sun don't shine. The last line you can remember telling the cop was, "She said she was 21 officer!"

got the t-shirt, lol, without the rap sheet. Let's say that we ask for the 30K service right out of the box. Can we learn any dark secrets from that? My thought would be to drive the car a lot and put miles on the oil, then send it for analysis, then have a much better frame of reference.

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Welp. Might be taking the long way around GA on the next round trip...

From other information, looks like an LN IMSB, a RMS, MAF, and new brakes within the past 3,000 miles, so the deposit is more secure with that knowledge... The MAF was replaced twice, though, and with the CEL light on, maybe the tech needs to look harder at that?

Is there a way for a Mod to contact a member and give them my contact information so I can ask some questions? I've already sent a PM, but the member rarely posts on this site and might not get the PM.

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No, they won't give out personal information especially when it comes to marketplace sales. BTW - I got your PM. The car appears to be a well-sorted example, but I'd still have the engine inspected before I handed over $20+K.

10-4, it's at the wrench now, and he knows the type.

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True this. The final warning on my car was a misfire on #6 cylinder because the plug was bridged with burnt oil/carbon deposits. Misfires are NOT always a cracked coil.

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School me on whether a code reader and qualified mechanic can sort out the real cause from outside the block? Would there be something else that could be done? I'm assuming that he's going to do a thorough engine inspection because the rest of the car doesn't need a PPI. He knows that I'm wanting him to take every path, and to follow up if he smells something fishy. As everybody agrees about, better to spend a handful of C-notes on inspection, than a bucket-full after the purchase.

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Definitely! But it really depends upon the mechanic. Lots of guys these days are just parts changers and not skilled troubleshooters. A skilled troubleshooter can determine the actual cause with a good scope. I took a troubleshooting class back in 2017 from ScannerDanner. https://www.scannerdanner.com/ I learned a LOT! If your mechanic has just a scanner, then no. If he has a scope(and the skills to use it) then yes.

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Yes. I had three cracked coils(two badly cracked.) I had the plugs pulled due to age which is also a good diagnosis tool for what is going on inside the cylinders. When #6 came out funky the boroscope was put into use. My scoring was so bad on #5 and #6 you could see it through the spark plug hole. As this problems starts from the bottom of the cylinder the best way is to drop the oil pan and scope from the bottom. Not horribly intrusive and it will tell you what is going on that can cost you $$$$$ in the future. Assume nothing... #6

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Wish I could recall what the mechanic said (I'm pretty hard of hearing) but he said that dropping the pan on an '03 model isn't easy or cheap because of something that's down there. Anybody with an '03 that knows what that would be, and more to the point, it seems that I'd want the guy to do it anyway because that would confirm that there aren't slivers of metal in the pan, and would allow for a bore-scope. What would cause a mechanic to hesitate due to obstruction around the pan?

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Dropping a sump plate on a Mk2 Porsche is no different than dropping one on a Mk1. Pretty straight forward. However, borescoping from the sump is technically much harder and time-consuming than scoping from the spark plugs. Therefore, most mechanics probably won't fool with it. But cylinder bore scoring begins at the bottom of the cylinder, not the top. Once it begins, it's a downward spiral that sheds damaging metal throughout the engine. Sucks.

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Nope! Nothing...it can be a pain to get the scope into position to see each cylinder, but don't believe there is anything unique to the 2003 that would make removing the oil pan difficult. Do you think he is padding his projected costs by saying this? I'm confused.

I don't know this mechanic, but if he said it at all and he knows what my level of interest was, then I'm confused, too. I'll probably go to the car Monday and have a FTF with the wrench and see what we can accomplish. If he isn't comfortable (he did make mention of his bore scope not being as clear as he would like) and if I like the car along with the new info about the bearing, then I'll probably take the gamble, have it trucked back home, and take it to my shop that is known and does the whole 9 yards of P-cars.

I�ve read through this thread. And I still can�t figure out what makes this car so special that someone would be willing to ignore the red flags. There are issues with just about every 996 for sale. 996s are 20 year old cars that became insanely cheap to purchase. The ownership history of this car in last few years is a big issue. 175,262 Porsche 996s were produced. I�d keep looking 🤷‍♂️

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Thanks for the counsel. Owners 1-5 put 32K miles on it, then #5 moved to NV and sold the car. #6 bought in NV and moved to TX, so job and home changes will cause disposable assets to be jettisoned if need be. From 12/18 to 6/20 it was in the dealer network and moved from TX to FL to TN to AL, so I don't have an answer besides knowing that a stable garage will cause a car to be kept longer. Looking at the ownership doesn't scare me like it initially did. Heck, my car is on owner #7 and I've only had it for less than two years, so there's that. I'll be selling it to #8 and it has no issues that I know of other than multiple owners.

Also, when we lived at the beach we had 12 boats in 11 years, and I've had dozens and dozens of cars, so multiple owners doesn't scare me if it's done for a whim and not something mechanical. I doubt that the dealers had PPIs done on the car, BUT it was serviced several times during the dealer-ownership period, so it was kept up. I'm looking hard at the car because it is the least expensive, low miles, cab on the market that isn't on the left coast. It's close enough to visit. It would replace my current car and would give me 4 newer model years, new front look, manual instead of Tip, NAV, for not a lot of extra money. It makes sense to me, anyway...

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I don�t see multiple owners as a problem. The �99 I just bought had multiple owners. Being shuffled unsold through a dealer network for 2 years? That�s a red flag to me. But maybe there�s a perfectly good reason nobody has wanted to buy it. Good luck 👍

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....fingers crossed that it was shuffled around because it was a fun car to drive. The services included new front brakes, battery, MAF sensor, so somebody, for some reason, kept it up. That's all I know for now; we'll know more by this time next week. Roll Tide!

UPDATE: from a prior owner of the car: Hi Rick, The car was straight as an arrow. No collision damage. There was a scratch on the trunk (back) left side. That is the only defect known to me. As stated, the IMS was done and very well maintained. I ended up trading in the car to a dealership in Florida for a 2011 Mercedes SL550. Trade in value $23,000. What a shame for such a great looking and great driving car. I purchased the car from a high end "flipper" in Las Vegas. He purchased it from someone in Michigan. It was serviced at a Porsche dealership in Birmingham Michigan. I don't know all the details regarding the owners but I do know that someone in Michigan owned the car, sold it to his/her son who sold it to his/her neighbor. 7 owners is a flag to pay attention to but I can tell you that when I owned the car it was solid, well cared for and fun to drive. I hope this helps your decision to purchase.

Folks definitely have different level of risk aversion when it comes to car purchase, 996 crowd seems particularly risk averse though. In my last 4 months of search for 996, I probably spent close to $1500 on various PPIs, carfax etc and had many cars sold before I was able to negotiate post PPI. I ended up with a less than perfect, blemished interior but what I think mechanically sound car for a good price. I fully anticipate something to go wrong and am trying for be smart and set aside cash to repair as things break. As many people said, you�re more or less buying the engine, given IMS, major services complete, and mechanically sound, it feels like you�ve got a relatively low risk but here with some unique situation to make the price palatable at such low mileage. Just my noob 2 cents.

lol, I'd say that a 996 crowd is the opposite, because we get into a car knowing it could be a money pit, but so are boats and women, so measure the fun against the outlay. It surprises me that a car got sold after a PPI, because I'm wanting to talk to the shop before they release the car back to the dealer, if I haven't already put a non-refundable deposit down.

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A lot of people are risk adverse on the 996 due to the possible expense of a failed engine. Fixing said failed engine can start "low" for a running takeout and go up quickly for a properly reconstructed engine. Some people are not willing or cannot invest that sort of money after buying the car. You really have to like the car or let it go.

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that�s totally fair and valid perspective. The engine blowning up mid trip is a legitimate concern of mine too. I do think my over thinking of every detail got in the way of me buying a car that otherwise would have been great and extended my hunt where I could have been driving the car sooner. It could be a particularity with the NorCal market where these cars seems to go on and off market at rapid rate.

Maybe the subject of a new thread, but is there a "normal" or "average" time frame from start to drop on a failing engine if it's IMSB or bore scoring or AOS? Do you get seconds, 500 miles, a year or two?

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A short answer is a roll of the dice...Varies greatly although the IMSB failure can go from zero to boom quickly along with damaging a lot of stuff before the boom due to polluting the oil with abrasive junk.

For the car I'm looking at, the IMSB has been done 3,000 miles ago, so that one is behind us. Low miles might be a benefit too, right? Well, rats, just like a woman knows your're going to break up with her before you know it, and starts acting strange, my '99 was going to take my to BHM to look at the '03 but must have sensed that I was planning to sell it, so rewarded me with a CEL which became a P1531 code and a P1126 code. I cleaned the MAF and airbox and cleared codes, and this morning neither code showed up after a 10 mile drive. I'll put another 30 miles on it and check again, but if the code stays cleared, should I just chalk it up to a strange event? I've never checked codes on the car in 2 years, so no telling how long the 1531 code was there.

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But.... People still don�t take the conditions seriously. If I see a car with a misfire, before I do more than looking for a cracked coil, I immediately perform my invasive inspection, looking for an underlying mechanical issue. I am not going to start throwing parts at a problem until the engine proves to me that it doesn�t have bore scoring, high cam deviations, or other mechanical issues. I don�t have time to waste �hoping� that some external part will solve the issue. Put simply, think worst case first, and prove that you don�t have a scenario where you�ll waste time and money with the wrong guy, throwing parts at the symptoms.

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I can use some perspective here. PPI on a 36K mile car with frequent oil changes and no damage history. If I tell the wrench to pull the pan and check the lower cylinders, that's worth doing, but what do I tell him to do in order to satisfy what Jack suggested?

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Bore Scope (from the bottom), test compression, test cam deviations with Durametric or eqiv. , If all good, relax and carry on with your normal program !!!

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I'm kind of ignorant about these things right now, but are the compression and deviation tests going to narrow down the mis-fire code cause?

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Yes ! The compression test will insure you have one of the three main ingredients for combustion (Fuel/Fire/Compression).. The cam deviation test will insure the misfires aren't caused by cam timing being out of Spec..

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For the most part it will rule out an internal issue and help u to decide if the car is worth fixing. It may be as simple as a bad coil or fuel injector. It may be bad varicams at $2-3k to fix it might not be worth driving. Bottom line is milage is not a good indicator of a good motor. I have seen several under 50k cars lose motors once they start to get driven more often. Garage rot is real on these motors. You have now been told by a dozen people that if u dont want to take a chance get an invasive ppi. There is no way else to tell if this car is a good buy.

Not sticking my heels in the dirt about an invasive PPI, but can I describe it to the tech, or would any Porsche tech know what an invasive PPI is? I 100% agree that I want to know the engine before I buy the car, but to what extent does the Tech know what to do without my giving him a menu? I've sent the Tech shop a message that I want to confer with him before they start the work. What I'm learning from this thread is going to help me talk with him without looking like a complete novice. I'm a medium DIYer, but the 911s I've had have had very little work done to them, so that's a good thing, and this new car just represents that I'm looking at it a lot differently than I looked at the other ones.

Looks like this thread is beating the subject to death. OP knows what to do. Now it's up to him. I used to hear you "buy the seller" more than the car, but after owning one of these 996 cars, I don't recommend that advice. You can have a great seller, but a car that sucks. The two biggest problems with these cars are almost impossible for the average buyer to identify on a test drive and in-person inspection. There is good advice on this thread OP.

Op i get your point. I dont have a list of what shoiud be done for a ppi.maybe someone can speak up with a list if things to be checked or a link for a thread explaining the ppi in more detail.There have been several threads in the past year discussing it. Im not sure i would want a porsche tech of the dealership selling the car telling me what is wrong with the car. Not sure if u posted your location but there r a lot of good indys out there. Im sure somone here can refer u to someone in your area.

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I think I liked buying cars before the internet because it was blissful ignorance. Now I'm hearing that I know what to do, and yet what list do I give the tech that will accomplish a PPI without dis-mantling the engine, or cost me several thousand dollars? Granted, spending several thousand to avoid $25,000 is a good deal, but I know just enough that whatever the PPI wasn't able to find, just might come up and bite me anyways. If I put it into business terms, how much research do i want to do in order to buy an iffy business? If you go to buy your next 996. what would you want the PPI to include?? EDIT: I just posted a POLL to see about what we are doing about our PPI plans

UPDATE: the car went to the mechanic and when I suggested all of the work for a PPI, he called BS on the idea; said doing something like an expensive lower bore scoping was not worth doing if the car was running OK and with those few miles and lots of oil changes. He said codes indicated air or vacuum leak(s) so he's doing a smoke test and whatever else he can think of to find and cure the cause. Car starts and runs like a 3-cylinder tractor when cold, if that's a clue, then smooths out quickly to become a normal car. This is from the mechanic, I haven't heard it. Anyway, car is now ours and we'll see what the wrench finds out and does.

Quotes source post: 17069583

HEY! Mine is POLAR Silver with BLUE. So the answer is at least: allofthem - 1 That it no way reduces the validity of your point, of course!

Quotes source post: 17080444

Good luck with the car. Keep us updated.

thanks, Wild, will do. If the root cause is leaks, then we'll have him replace a number of hoses as a precaution, but the guy knows what he's doing so right now waiting to hear from him about the smoke results.

Good luck bababoy473, hope things work out. Your mechanic may have dismissed the idea of borescoping from the bottom but I wouldn't call it "calling BS". Calling BS is when someone points out that something isn't true (i.e. it's BS), not that they disagree, are ignorant, or have never done it before. Everything that's been said here about the importance of PPI borescoping is honest-to-God truth IMO, particularly if there is a potential indicator (such as an unexplained misfire). There are multiple documented cases of low-mileage scored engines so this itself really doesn't mean much. Many oil changes are better than infrequent changes, but that also is no guarantee. The main thing is that a scored engine will cost you at least $20k to fix and scoring is pretty common on these engines. Bottom end rescoping may be a little difficult but it's not an engine out task or prohibitively expensive. And as others pointed out the ownership history was also a red flag. Seriously, I hope things work out great and you and your son have a blast as these are great cars. Maybe my risk tolerance just isn't as high as yours. Anyways, good luck and please let us know how it goes.

Point taken, and let me re-phrase what the mechanic intended to tell me, and that is that I would be spending money to learn something as of today, but that didn't mean that scoring might not start next week, so his opinion was on the side of saving what he considered to be a needless expense. I hope he's right, but knowing that our cars (excepting those that got rebuilt engines with Nikasil)could all get scoring makes us all risk takers.

UPDATE: Repairs are complete, and we lucked out. All of the codes turned out to be caused by a "Transpo CN" MAF sensor. He replaced with an OEM MAF and the car starts and runs like it should, so we dodged a bullet and have good car at a screamingly good price. Since there had been 2 other MAFs installed in the past 2 years, our guess is that the first MAF was also a Chinese junk, and when they replaced it, they used the same brand and got the same results, so it went from dealer to dealer and didn't sell because it started like crap. IF this fixes two years of dealers chasing their tails, then that's great. Fingers crossed, and just another caveat to use OEM if you have the choice.