Engine build TuneRS

Hello.....looking to get a motor done from TuneRS motorsports. Had a great conversation with them....anybody used them for an M96 build before? Looking for thoughts or history on on your build. Looking other places than FSI for now as the wait is too long. Please feel free to PM responses also.

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I would wait for Flat 6 Innovations. They are the best in the industry and worth every penny. I took their class and Jake Raby's reputation and quality control goes into every engine they build. Years ago when I was researching all the options for IMS bearing replacement, I notice that TunerRS had created an IMS bearing kit, but their design was just an oil fed flange that integrates with the existing OEM bearing in the car. This doesn't solve the problem. Even a representative working with SKF said here on Rennlist that ultimately, load is how bearings are rating and load is what destroys these bearings inside an engine application. Other factors like age, lack of lubrication, pitting, and acidic corrosion are all contributors to the problem, but if you look at the data from the bearing manufacturers, the strength of the bearing must be matched to the right application or failure will occur prematurely. In my opinion, this is why the dual row bearing had reported less failures compare to the more problematic successor - single row bearing. TunerRS seems to promote that lubrication is sole reason for failure of a ball bearing. I believe that to be wrong. At the point of my research, I also considered rebuilding options if bearing failure was already to the point of shedding metal within the engine. TunerRS was not very clear about what internal weak points they addressed. Flat 6 Innovations claims that the M96 engine has about 31 modes of failure that need to be addressed. While shops like TunerRS would reuse the same factory parts, Flat 6 would replace them with more durable parts. For example, the factory IMS tensioner paddle is well known to snap causing engine failure. Flat 6 uses a billet aluminum part manufactured by LN Engineering that is tested to tolerances that exceed the factory original. Lastly, it wasn't very clear what cylinder technology they used. Flat 6 currently uses proven nikasil plating similar to the Mezger engines. These cylinders don't score like other technology. I could go on and on.

A year goes by really fast...My engine will arrive today at FSI, Well worth the wait!

I would love to have an FSI engine in my car but here is the problem. My car is not a garage queen, I have had it for over 20 years, it has lots of little dents and scratches, rust has started in many places, the interior is ok except the seats which have started to disintegrate, etc. etc. It does have PSS10s, Eibach sway bars a fairly new top and a 6 speed gear box that was rebuilt by Gbox a few years ago and a new clutch and pressure plate, and an upgraded stereo. But is I want a year or so and spend roughly $24,000 on an FSI engine I will have a car that will probably not be worth the $24,000 that he engine will cost. And I think this is the case with Many 996's. I had the gear slip on my IMS shaft, oil pump end, and the valves on the 4-6 head are all bent. I have the engine 80% disassembled and there does not seem to be any other damage to the pistons and cylinder sleeves, but I am going to have to split the block to get the IMS out and have it pinned or use one that anther member gave me but I would want to have it pinned too. He also gave me two heads in good shape and I have one 1-3 head that is brand new that I bought a few years ago. So I am gong to "rebuild" the engine myself with many new parts (bearings, gaskets, etc.) but not NIckies, pistons etc. It will probably cost me several thousand dollars but this makes more sense to me. IMHO But if I had a garage queen shape car and lots of money maybe I would go FSI, or sell the car and buy a newer one.

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I completely respect that. Then, maybe this Black Friday deal is something you might want to consider.

Planning on it. But prior to seeing this sale I was hoping to find someone who had it and would be willing to share it. For years I have been sharing the Service Manuals, PET programs and After Sales Training Manuals and was hoping the favor would be returned. But I also know that Jake has to make a living and his knowledge is invaluable, and at $299 it is saves you a few hours and prevents some mistakes it is well worth it. i can tell you that the sharing of information and time spent helping others has already paid off many times over and I referred to above a member here actually gave me an IMS and two cylinder heads which will make my project much easier. So sometimes what goes around comes around!👍

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if you florida local i got a guy for you that prints m96 for a lot of shops . pm me

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Send the heads to Hoffman and have him work a little magic on them (he knows how to port/polish and check/fix the valve seats so they wont fall out, etc...) I think even if you don't "blueprint" the rest of the engine, this work is well worth the cost. Obviously there are a bunch of little things that add up to a well built engine - do as many as you can (I think getting Jake's engine building videos will help immensely with this)and I think you'll probably be well set for the long term! Good Luck

@dynosoar1 You should sign up for our next engine sales Webinar, coming up on 12/17/20. Of course, this doesn't make things happen any faster, but it does shed light on why my style of building these engines takes so much time.

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Bought the set yesterday! hell of a deal and I am thinking it will save me hours and hours and many possible mistakes. If only Jake would offer over 50% of a rebuild!:-)

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Is your motor failed, just tired or do you want more confidence in it? I am totally biased but I can whole heartedly recommend FSI. The wait goes by faster than you think and the results are impressive to say the least.

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Here's a direct link to the DVD set on sale: https://lnengineering.com/education/...-assembly.html It's $299 through Monday plus many LN/BRS items up to 25% off.

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I�ve never discounted engines, or offed a �special� for them. In 27 years it hasn�t happened, and never will on my watch. You can hope, though.. :-) (Your chances of winning the lottery are more favorable)

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I was only joking on the discount. Heck with a year + waiting list and all you put into the engines you certainly don't need to offer discount! I only wish I could afford an FSI engine.

The waiting time definitely speaks for the quality of work that is being done at FSI. Building an engine is a bucket list item for me and wish you best of luck if you're going to tackle this yourself. I think it's a very rewarding experience for someone that enjoys turning wrenches. Putting the pieces together and torquing every bolt to start the engine in the end can be immensely satisfying. I hope you document your experience here, time permitted. If you upgrade certain aspects of the engine (IMS Solution, RMS, low temp thermostat, spin-on filter, UAOS and Nickies) you can have yourself a very solid motor. I'm sure FSI has some other tricks up their sleeve but those seem to be the big ones from what I know.

@dynosoar1 I take my car to TuneRS for all the work on it, and I can totally recommend them.

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Would love to check it out....shoot me the link...I didn't see it on the website.

Nobody out there with a rebuild from TuneRS? How about any others......anybody used other builders they would recommend? Seems like there are lots of choices for builders of the M96 out there and with these engines supposedly being so in need of service I was hoping to get some good feedback. I love everything I read about the FSI builds...that's for sure. Going to check the webinar if I can find the link

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I highly recommend you to step by and talk with Mike They are really professional and they have long experience in engine rebuild and high perf. preparations. Last ones that I have seen, a 3.8 993 rebuild bottom to top with GT3 exhaust that is just amazing. Also they have a long demonstrated experience improving the M96 engines.

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sounds good.....Mike is with who?

I've been casually researching this topic and a sister company of LN, RND, does complete engine rebuilds to the tune of $20k. It does seem to include many new parts and address many common modes of failure. I don't know all of them but the big ones seem to be taken care of. Might be worth looking into if you're not interested in increasing the engine size, which I think that is what FSI does a lot of.

Why not an LN Engineering RND engine? It has all the good parts from LN and Jake, and it's a much faster time line to get it. This puts the engine back to factory stock power but with all the known problems fixed. Best of both worlds. This is what I have done and I don't have to worry about the longevity of my engine. Give Charles a call, he can help you out. Just for the record my IMSB was just starting to fail, metal in the oil, caught it just in time. Sorry plpete84, didn't see your post, what he said.

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I will look into it.... thanks!

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They seem really knowledgeable and very easy to talk with for sure!

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Mike is TuneRS owner

If you're in south florida Orbit Racing in WPB may be worth talking to.

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Where do we sign up for the webinar? I'd like to learn more. Bruce

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Thanks.....I�ve been talking with Roberto....so good to know!

"Also they have a long demonstrated experience improving the M96 engines." Really? Ironically, I was looking for an engine builder a little less than two years ago... they didn't come up in any of my searches/queries... Fortunately for me, FSI did...

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Build a engine right once & you never have to do it again & it has more power + MPG. If the car gets crashed take the engine out to put into your next car. (Don't tell your insurance company how valuable your engine is)

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We don�t really publicize it. I typically send invites to those who have sent us a submission ticket at www.flat6innovations.com asking for info. Otherwise we end up with a bunch of people that are listening to argue, rather than being truly interested, and open to what the FSI engine program really is. :-)

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Well, that is good for you... If you like deciding your engine builder on a google search It is really surprising though, How in a post where the OP is asking opinions about an specific workshop... people keeps throwing "commercials" about another ones...

^^^ How is that a "commercial"? If anything it would be a "testimonial"...not a commercial So now that this thread is 3 pages long, how many testimonials has he gotten for the original shop he was asking about? Speaks volumes,,,

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An so... what do you try to mean? Are you trying to say that the workshop in question is not worthy of the trust of the OP? Do you have any experience with them? Do you know anything about their work that can be interesting for others? Any data or fact to share?... (asking for a friend...) Maybe you should try to get to know other Porsche Specialist workshops other than those that pop up in a google search

Dude^^^ Do you have comprehension problems? First of all, I never said anything about a "google search" I meant EXACTLY what I said in my original post - let me reiterate... " Ironically, I was looking for an engine builder a little less than two years ago... they didn't come up in any of my searches/queries..." Now, for the reading comprehension challenged, what this means is; In looking for an engine builder, I spoke to several people including but not limited to; fellow enthusiasts, local PCA members, my local Porsche dealership, several local & not so local shops, and finally yes - online searches. Never once was Tune RS recommended to me - sorry, but that's the truth. This was not the case with FSI - I'll leave it at that so my post is not perceived as a "commercial"...

The thing I know for sure is that people like Flat 6 and that they are a great company for guys like us with the M96. Was really hoping to get more info on the shop that I spoke with. They seemed very passionate about Porsche and definitely seemed very familiar with the M96 and its shortcomings. Lots of people have ideas on how to best build them once they need attention.....but I was really looking for testimonials on people who had engines built by them and have been running them. Honestly, I don't know anyone out where I'm at that is running an FSI motor, but would love to chat with them if they want to PM me. If I do a build I definitely want to go to 3.8 option from my current 3.4. Jake if you're reading this and know someone in the Sacramento area with one of your motors let me know and maybe I can meet up with them. In the meantime I will ask the shop more questions and keep all options open.....thanks to everyone who weighed in.

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Believe me... with one engineering degree and two master degrees... I have more than trained my comprehension skills... but I still don't get your point though...I still don't get why, when somebody ask you about an specific workshop, your only point is to direct them to another one... and even, putting in doubt the skills of the mentioned workshop ("Oh really?"...) I'm not going to explain what TuneRS is, or what they do... The experience that they have in air cooled and water cooled porsches, in street and racing preparation, in restorations and builds... and even specifically in M96 engines with a patented permanent solution for the IMS problem (DOF)... which happens to be an alternative and direct competition of the solution offered by that workshop that you are so fan(boy). If you don't know them... you should extend your research... but...actually, I think that you knew them already... ... .

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WOW! Release the hounds...

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The TunerRS direct oil feed system is NOT permanent because it uses an OEM ball bearing. The OEM type bearing in the application is known to wear. This system also claims that lack of lubrication is the sole reason for IMS bearing failure. Load is how bearings are rated by the manufacturer and load is what kills these bearings in this application. Lubrication is part of the equation, but the 6204 OEM bearing could not handle the load and thrust forces within a Porsche engine. Porsche for years got it right with the oil fed plain bearing design which is proven in all Mezger engines, but because of cost-cutting pressures from the high brow corporate accountants, the engineers decided to put a lowly mower ball bearing in a $20,000 engine.

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Well, that is other (old) discussion... what is the best solution for the IMS "problem" ... but the DOF solution is designed (and patented) to be a permanent solution. It is used in street and racing applications, and I have never heard of any failure. You can prefer one solution over the other, and that is totally understandable, but there are technical arguments for each solution.

Can we agree that there can be more than one way to solve a problem and that there is more than one engine builder that is more than capable of building a well sorted engine? I think the thought that "there can only be one" mentality is not healthy. Competition is ok. I know that FSI has their own design for the "IMS Solution" which is patented and nobody is replicating it for that reason. That's awesome and if someone has a different design that also addresses the issue but in a somewhat different way then let's not sh*t on it just because it's not the popular choice. Until we have solid evidence that products like DOF solution is failing in multiple cars and engines are blowing up because of poor build quality then we can argue for ages. All modes of failure are well documented and can be addressed by a well seasoned builder.

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Basically, the fallacy that TunerRS makes is their strong claim (see attached image) that the IMS bearing is not the problem and that lack of lubrication is the sole reason for bearing failure. My challenge to them is simple... If lack of lubrication (and cooling) was the problem, then WHY has the original factory dual row bearing proven to be more durable over time than the infamous 6204? If lubrication was the sole reason for failure, then you'd see as many or MORE failures for the original dual row bearing cars that date back to 1997. That's not the case. It was found that the 6204 bearings suffered under the load forces of the engine that the earlier Dual Row Bearings could withstand. Porsche's answer was the 6305 bearing and then completely eliminating the IMS shaft in the 9A1 engine. IMHO, the intermediate shaft wasn't the problem. The intermediate shaft has been proven to be a useful part in the Porsche engine dating back to the early aircooled days. In my opinion, among the three IMS bearings the factory chose to use, the ONLY one I'd leave alone is the 6305 M97 IMS bearing until a full rebuild is necessary. Of course, the plain bearing design of the Mezger engine is by far the best solution for supporting both ends on the intermediate shaft. And yes, I agree with you... the IMS bearing debate is old just like oil debates, but there are still people that show up and have never heard about the problem. I'm one many forums and you'd be surprised how many show up each week and ask the question. There's a whole FB group with 3,000 members associated with the problem. Go figure, huh? Cheers!

Me thinks this thread has skidded waaay off topic.

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Nahh... the water's warm come on in!

" Believe me... with one engineering degree and two master degrees... I have more than trained my comprehension skills... but I still don't get your point though..." Ahhhhh... ^^^That explains it then!

The car I have now that I'm just about to put in a rebuilt 3.8L engine in originally had a TuneRS rebuilt motor in it. The original owner brought it to them after a dropped valve seat in cylinder 5 at 70K miles. The rebuilt engine failed again at 116K miles with guess what... a dropped valve seat at #5. From what I can tell from the PO's receipts from TuneRS (and there were a LOT), they continued to use the same injectors after the original failure. This seems to be something a top notch shop would have required? Maybe not - maybe just FSI... I'm not saying they are a bad shop, maybe they didn't have the knowledge of injectors being a potential failure point back then, as this rebuild took place in 2012.

When I received my LN Engineering RND engine there were parts I had to buy as part of the install. One was new injectors, not rebuilt but new. They have had to much trouble with used injectors in their new engines.

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Yeah I would think anytime you're doing the engine it would be best to replace all ancillary things that make the engine function as new (water pump, injectors, AOS, coil packs....etc) Would definitely do that for any engine I was having done.

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Why would you want your engine prints??

^^^ (I think) He means "blue prints"... I guess "prints" is the cool way to say it, but in today's parlance (3D printing and all...) becomes confusing